Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Katherine on July 20, 2022, 01:20:45 AM
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Hi all,
I’ve been pondering this question for a while now and I’ve never found the answer when searching online so I’m hoping someone on here might know…
I’ve read in some places that menopause symptoms last for a few years - but what is the mechanism behind the symptoms stopping? If you don’t take HRT, you never get the hormones back, so how do the symptoms stop? And why do some women have no symptoms ( my mother is one of these lucky people btw)?
In Louise newson’s books she describes it as a lifelong hormone deficiency, and recommends taking HRT forever, so this also kind of contradicts the people who say the symptoms aren’t permanent.
Also, if you do stop HRT doesn’t it just delay the process of the body adapting to no estrogen? There seems to be so much conflicting information out there. I would be grateful if anyone could shed some light on this so my poor brain can have a rest 😂. I’m still persevering with the HRT anyway as the better sleep is just a lifesaver.
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Hi Katherine
I am following with interest re your question. I am 7 years post meno, still looking for the right HRT after trying so many combos. I am on the waiting list for NHS clinic as my GP does not know what is the best way forward. Like you say some of my friends are sailing through no issues at all. I am fed up with it all. When I stop HRT I feel okay emotionally and clear headed but the aches and bladder issues kick in so back on HRT again!
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Peri-menopuase are the years leading up to the final period = menopause. So we are 'in menopause' from then on. Some have a lot of problems until menopause, others find that symptoms rise and fall for a while.
As the ovaries may continue to niggle away, symptoms may continue. Personally I believe that is totally an individual issue. My periods waxed and waned for 2/3 years (aged ? 48) then stopped. After which I would get a warm glow every evening after my bath as well as intense itching across my shoulder area. Lack of oestrogen.
Do U have symptoms? Some find that keeping a mood/food/symptom diary of use. May I ask how old you are and where you are with your periods?
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Thanks ladies for your responses, much appreciated :)
Hi QueenofReds, I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you have some luck with the clinic. Have you tried any other remedies for your symptoms?
Hi CKLD, I'm 46, still have regular periods but they are heavy and I need iron tabs to prevent anaemia. My GP, who is fab, says I'm in peri menopause. My symptoms before HRT which I started in Feb were - feeling hot, insomnia or light/unrestful sleep, more irritable (but that could be down to other things), skin dryness, vaginal dryness and anterior prolapse, no sex drive, increased anxiety, and fatigue. The estrogel (2 pumps) and utrogestan has given me a bit more energy, less dry skin and better sleep quality but the other symptoms remain. I also take vaginal oestrogen which has reduced the dryness. However the other symptoms remain and I am considering asking for testosterone. The only problem with the utrogestan, which I take 100g of continuously before bed on the advice of my GP, is I feel slightly drowsy during the daytime and it makes me sleepy for 12 hours per night/morning in total so I'm undecided between persevering with the HRT and asking for testosterone, or stopping the whole lot and trying other remedies. I have tried increasing the Estrogel to 3 pumps but it makes me feel a bit unwell. I have been tracking my mood and it does have a cyclical element - I have v. low energy, poor concentration and feeling of negativity from 2 days before my period for a week or so, then a better two weeks with more energy and positivity - when I schedule more challenging tasks and any appointments. So I think my hormones are definitely a big influence. I feel like it could be all to do with serotonin levels. I have considered 5-HTP - has anyone tried it?
Hi jaypo, I think it was the fatigue and bad sleep quality that pushed me to ask for HRT initially. I was finding it difficult to function and work. If someone told me, you will have these symptoms but they will only last say, 3 years then you'll be fine, I probably would have just tried to plod on but its partly the uncertainty. I think that's why I'm trying to figure this out. I read somewhere online that as your ovaries wind down your adrenal glands are supposed to take over but if they are already over taxed then they find it difficult and you get symptoms. That's the only explanation I've found as to what happens. I've noticed that the people I know who have no symptoms are quite laid back / good sleepers in the first place, so in theory I guess that means their adrenals do a good job of taking over. I want to find out more so I can make an informed decision rather than just treat symptoms in the short term. It's hard to look at the big picture though when you're in the midst of it! I'm glad you came through it alright, that is encouraging to know. Before I got symptoms I avoided medications if I could but by peri menopause I was suffering and thought it was worth a try. I was also reassured that the risks of the type of HRT I take are very low. I guess it's a journey and we learn along the way. I'm not sure what I'm going to do, at the moment just trying to figure it out..
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Just remembered (!) one other symptom - short term memory issues. I keep walking into rooms and forgetting why I went in, that sort of thing. I have got in the habit of writing things down as soon as I think of it otherwise it will slip away after a few seconds! That symptom hasn't been changed by HRT I don't think.
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Hi Katherine
I’m sorry I don’t know the answer as to why menopause symptoms stop.
I suppose in peri it’s the fluctuations that cause many of the symptoms and for some when periods finally cease they find relief.
I think the reason why many ladies seem ok post menopause is because they have good adrenal function. Certainly for me I know this is the main reason I struggle post menopause.
I’ve used 5-htp in the past but it has to be used with care. It’s contradicted in people taking SSRI’s. It can work for depression but does not work if you suffer from anxiety or irritability.
I was interested in your description of the cyclical nature of your mood (2days pre period for about a week), this coincides of course with the drop in hormones. As you are taking Utrogestan continuously it’s unlikely to be low progesterone so could you try increasing your estrogen slightly during that time only until your own estrogen kicks back in? Just a thought.
I would certainly consider taking testosterone which you will certainly qualify for with low sex drive. But of course the additional benefits of increased energy and cognitive function, are not appreciated by many doctors as they should be.
X
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Agree with Marchlove - a big article in the Sat press stated that 5-HTP should never be used with other medications, prescribed or OTC.
Short term memory loss is common as we age. We have a thread : doing stupid things : which will give you a giggle. And look out for That Strange Woman ;-)
Your hormonal rise and fall is similar to how mine was during my menstrual years. 'normal' for me, I do think that as we go into peri we focus more on how we feel because hormones are more noticeable. We also have 'the change' in the backs of our minds?
Let us know how you get on.
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Hi CLKD, thanks for the thread suggestions, I will take a look :-). thanks also for the heads up about 5HTP.
Hi Marchlove, Adrenal function keeps coming up as a possible reason, I will look into that. Have you found any ways to improve your adrenal function? I think worriers like me probably hammer their adrenalin more than more laid back personalities. So I guess stress reduction is a big factor. I tried upping the estrogel to 3 pumps for a few days but it made me feel a bit funny but I guess I could try 2 pumps in the morning and another pump in the evening. I'll try that a few days before my period. I think I will also ask for testosterone then at least I know whether it will help instead of wondering :-) It does seem odd that testosterone isn't mentioned so much given it is one of our main hormones that drop. I will let you know how I get on.
If anyone else has any ponderings about the why's and wherefores of how the symptoms end please let me know your thoughts, or indeed any links or articles. Maybe I should get a proper menopause textbook or something ;D.
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Hi Kathleen
There are two main aspects to what are described as menopause symptoms which is why it is confusing.
There are the obvious physical (and mental) symptoms associated with fluctuation and fall in mainly oestrogen but also progesterone - such as hot flushes and night sweats (the classic ones) from fall in oestrogen and eg heavy bleeding associated with decreased progesterone (as a result of cycles where you don't ovulate and you start skipping periods). These may or may not be experienced ( lucky ones who don't get them) and they may last for example until periods cease, or for many years, but you do not know in advance if you're going to one of the very unlucky women for whom they last for many years!
Some women decide to start HRT at this point - ie during peri - purely to alleviate these (and many other) symptoms), and then stop taking it.
For some women - symptoms return once they stop taking it and do not resolve even after a few months, but for others they may never return. I don't know the mechanism that determines which camp you will fall into (not sure if this is known anyway) and as far as I know taking HRT will not affect whether you are for example going to be a long term or short term flusher (I'm focussing on this symptoms because it is an obvious/classic example).
In answer to your point about delaying the adaptation to low oestrogen - I hope the answer re hot flushes illustrates that it doesn't. This question has been posed and disucssed many times on this forum and the key point is - that the whole time you are taking HRT, you have ( provided you get the formulation and dosing that works for you) improved quality of life during those years. This cannot be taken away from you even if you subsequently experience those symptoms later in life (eg after stopping HRT and you are one of the long term flushers). Does that make sense?
In addition to the more obvious symptoms, there can be long term consequences of the oestrogen deficiency which we will all experience from approx 2-3 years after menopause, for the rest of our lives. One obvious symptom of medium term oestrogen deficiency is vaginal atrophy or genito-urinary syndrome of menopause (GSM) - which is relatively easily sorted, and a long term symptom - osteoporosis - which susceptible women may suffer from - but which is not obvious in peri-menopause unless you have a bone can for some reason
Remember that some women may reach menopause at 45 and may live until 95 whiich is more than half your life in an oestrogen deficient state. There are other benefits of taking HRT eg cardio-vascular health.
Of course equally (or even more) important are lifestyle factors - diet, exercise, body weight etc - in helping us live healthily beyond menopause.
If your periods are still regular as in never skipped a period and less than 1 week difference in cycle length then you are not yet at peri-menipause according to the current medical definition - but in the late reproductive stage. However hormones do begin to go a bit awry at this point as the ovarian function starts to decrease, and for some unluckly women early peri-menopausal symptoms such as you describe, can begin, as well as worsening pms.
In your position - regular periods, still young - some meno specialists prefer to prescribe one of the contraceptive pills which are similar to HRT in that they contain the same oestrogen (estradiol) but also suppress the cycle which dampens down the hormone/mood fluctuations of peri-menopause. These are of course free on NHS - the two products are QLAIRA and ZOELY.
Utrogestan is notorious in being a sedative and having soporific effects.
Great to hear your sleep has improved...
Hope this helps....
Hurdity x
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Of course, that article is in the recycling bin with another which I meant to read - off with the grabber to search!
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Hi Katherine
In general I would try to keep your estrogen hrt on the low side. You need to really feel it’s effect on you and supplement at a slightly increased amount when you feel it will be of benefit and decrease also when necessary.
This can’t be explained in a text book and certainly not by any experts, but they surely know that the supplementation of sex hormones is beyond current medical expertise to achieve a 100% success rate. But nevertheless great gains can be achieved.
Your adrenals are very aware of sex hormone fluctuations so this is a fine art I feel. One which I’m still on a journey with.
X
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Hi all, just read your latest posts and planning to reply properly tomorrow but marchlove I was struck by you saying to keep the estrogel on the low side- why is this? Is it harmful if you take too much?
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A really informative post Hurdity. Thank you.
Taz x
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Hi Katherine
I’m speaking from personal experience that too much estrogen for me causes anxiety and histamine reactions.
Other ladies on this forum have been experiencing the same issues and some are opting to lower their estrogen because of this.
X
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Any alteration in HRT may through the body into free fall. Little steps.
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Hi all, thank you so much for all of the info, it is greatly appreciated.
Hurdity, thank you for taking the time to write such a comprehensive post. In terms of the mechanisms I was wondering about, I found a study online which was published in Nature which sheds more light on it. It basically says that the brain usually adapts to the hormone changes and several factors such as brain grey matter volume stabilise or are restored post menopause although genetics have an influence too. So it sounds encouraging. If anyone is interested I will post a link. I haven’t looked at many other studies yet but will do. In relation to the contraceptive pill, I can’t tolerate the combined or progesterone only pill so they aren’t an option for me. I am actually tempted to stop HRT and see how I feel without it because I can’t fully remember. The improved sleep is great but I don’t like feeling partially sedated all the time or the wired feeling I sometimes get with estrogel. I feel like I can’t fully relax on HRT. In terms of the protection from osteoporosis, etc, I have decided that I would prefer to do what makes me feel my best now rather than take HRT just for the long term health benefits. I guess I just need to experiment. Things are becoming clearer as time goes on. Thanks again. X
Marchlove and CKLD - thanks for the info. Today I actually skipped the estrogel as I felt I didn’t need it (I’m in my good time of month so more energy) but I guess I still need to take the utrogestan this evening. I did actually stop taking HRT a few weeks into taking it as I felt a bit wired and nothing bad happened. The only thing that concerns me about tweaking my oestrogen dose daily (if I do end up continuing with HRT) is that if my ratio of progesterone to estrogen is too high that my womb lining will get too thin. I read somewhere that it can get thin and ulcerated, not sure where I read that though. I should probably consult my GP before making any decision. Xx
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Where did U read about that, I believed that a thinner lining is better than one that thickens.
Keep that mood/food/symptom diary and let us know how you get on?
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CLKD, sorry I can’t remember where I read that. I just googled it and all the articles focus on the dangers of having too thick a lining. I’ve only ever seen the thing about ulceration in one place though.
Thanks for the diary idea, I track my mood and energy levels but not food as I just eat intuitively and give my body what it wants within reason. My diet is balanced but I’ve had to stop keeping chocolate and cake in the house as I can’t leave it alone, it makes me feel ten times better but I now need to lose weight. I wish I could buy the chemical in sweet foods and get the benefit without the weight gain!
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Jaypo’s post from this thread has disappeared! I wanted to refer back to it. Why do posts disappear? >:(
On the plus side I’ve just found the window with all the other emojis, its fab!
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Hello
Gosh I’d never heard of the possibility of it becoming ulcerated.
But that said, I think that is an extreme scenario, not that it can’t happen but worth bearing in mind. Most ladies on MM seem to have the opposite problem. But saying that perhaps this hasn’t really ever been raised?
It’s a difficult question you pose as to how you balance the two hormones and unfortunately one I do not have the answers to.
I completely agree with you regarding preferring short term benefits opposed to long term. I want to benefit now, not in some future decade when who knows what might be happening to me and the world in general. I want my health to be as good as it can be now, so that I can be if benefit to others in some way. That is my hope, completely off topic but hey!
X
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Hi Marchlove, I don’t remember the source of the ulceration info so I can’t be sure how credible it was and as you say most people are quite rightly concerned with the opposite scenario.
That’s lovely what you said of being of benefit to others. Also I think there is so much emphasis on quantity of life rather than quality. I mean I could stop eating chocolate and cake but then life would be much worse ;D
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The Member may have decided to remove the post ......... or on some Forums, a moderator will step in if it's not topic related.
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Ive decided to stop my HRT for now, I’ve had none yesterday or today but will make a GP appointment to see if she has any suggestions for alternative ways of taking it, etc. I’m a bit scared but I feel medicated rather than like my old self. Thanks for all of your comments, it has all helped in me reaching a decision. X
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Good luck Katherine, let us know how you get on x
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Hi there
In response to the Qs about thinning of the uterus lining which can cause spotting or bleeding - the medical term is "endometrial atrophy" and you can briefly read about it here: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/post-menopausal-bleeding/ or google the term. If I recall correctly the term is also used for what happens to the endometrium naturally post-menopause, so that the lining (receptors) normally does not continue respond to the oestrogen women continue to produce throughout their lives, so that it does not thicken and cause problems - but in this (normal) case the atrophy is not a clinical problem ie does not cause ulceration. Don't quote me on that though as I haven't looked it up for ages! And it has been raised many times on this forum as a possibility - and specifically in relation for example to those using a Mirena coil into post-menopausal years, in the absence of added oestrogen, because the progestogen dose is so high.
Katherine you said this: "I can’t tolerate the combined or progesterone only pill so they aren’t an option for me". The thing is the pills I mentioned are not like the combi pills you may have tried - they are more like HRT. Most combi pills contain very strong artificial oestrogens whereas the two listed contain estradiol which is what you are using in the gel. Which POP types did you try? The are many different progestogens and the more modern ones may not cause the same side effects....In any case they are not comparable with combi pills except that they can suppress the cycle and dampen hormonal fluctuations.
Women who are barely peri-menopausal may well not need extra high exogenous ( externally given) dose of oestrogen as they will still h ave their own, but the addition of a small amount means that in the second half of the cycle and especially at the end, it provides a base level so that their oestrogen does not "crash" quite so much as it otherwise would ie dampening the fluctuations somewhat.
"I have decided that I would prefer to do what makes me feel my best now rather than take HRT just for the long term health benefits."
Yes this is what motivates most women to consider HRT, but then they have the added long term benefits. In fact I am glad that I suffered horrible symptoms of flushes and sweats when peri-menopausal otherwise I woud not have considered HRT, but now my height, late 60's is the same as it always was and my bones are protected (my mother has osteoporosis). Some women who are at risk of osteoporosis (low BMI, early menopause, genetic pre-disposition) are advised to take HRT even without experiencing short term symptoms.
"I found a study online which was published in Nature which sheds more light on it. It basically says that the brain usually adapts to the hormone changes and several factors such as brain grey matter volume stabilise or are restored post menopause although genetics have an influence too. So it sounds encouraging. If anyone is interested I will post a link. "
I would be interested... though may forget to come back and have a look!
Hurdity x
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Morning Hurdity ..........
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Hi all,
Thanks for your good wishes Marchlove. I ended up taking a utrogestan at 3am as I was wide awake and had restless legs and within an hour of taking the capsule I was relaxed and ready for sleep. So it looks like it doesn't actually build up in the body much after all. The first night I skipped it I was fine. So in future if I feel like it's built up a bit I will just miss a dose. It's taken 6 months to get to this point so hopefully it won't happen too often. I'm really glad that happened as it showed me really quickly what happens when I don't take it and now I'm really thankful for the HRT! I think I will adjust my oestrogen dose daily according to how I feel too. 1 pump daily will be enough much of the time I think. It's proving to be a steep learning curve!
Hurdity, thank you for your reply - here is the link. I focused mainly on the abstract, not delving too deep into the study design or anything like that. But it looks encouraging. :-
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-90084-y
The combined pill I tried was microgynon and it gave me horrendous migraines with aura. I can't remember the name of the progesterone only pill but it made me feel unwell, gave me sore breasts and killed my sex drive which defeated the object of having it! Anyway, now I have realised I might be ok if I just tweak my doses of utrogestan and oestrogen a bit daily according to how I feel, I am happy to continue with them for the time being.
In terms of my reasons for starting HRT, it wasn't for the long term health benefits (I wasn't aware of them at the time) but for my symptoms mainly insomnia, poor quality sleep, anxiety and fatigue. But I was considering staying on the HRT even when I wasn't feeling my best on it, for the long term health benefits - then realised it is more important to me how I feel right now. Anyway it looks like I might get the long term benefits after all, yay!
Anyway, thank you so much Hurdity for another comprehensive reply and to all you ladies who I feel supported by, I am so thankful for this forum! I feel a bit daft changing my mind about HRT all the time but I guess you all understand! Have a great weekend everyone xxx
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That sounds like a good plan Katherine.
I know some women take the Utrogestan every other night and certainly that is quite a common practice in Europe. Ideally we would all like a 50mg dosage to take daily, but unfortunately the ‘powers that be’ haven’t made that option available.
Let us know how you get on going forward. x
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Thanks Marchlove, that is very useful to know. I was thinking just that the other day - 50mg capsules would be ideal. We need a petition or something. x
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Restless leg syndrome - I suffered from an early age. By chance eating a small banana daily cured the symptoms. However, I'm fussy about bananas ::) they have to be 'right'! 2 Nurofen an hour B4 bed helps if bananas aren't 'right'.
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CLKD, maybe it’s the magnesium in the bananas that helped.
When I started taking magnesium my banana cravings away ;D
My bananas have to be right too … ripe.
My cat has been a surprising source of comfort during these hormonal changes. I sometimes feel like cats know when we need them. X
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Hi Katherine,
To give you a more positive outlook, Oestrogen declline is permanent but the symptoms shouldn't be. When I was late peri at 48, I really panicked because, with the severe dizzinness I used to experience. I really thought I had a neurological disease and that I was going to deteriorate quickly. I had all the tests under the sun and everything was fine. I never thought that the menopause could make me feel so unwell. I thought menopause was just hot flushes. I had regular bouts of anxiety & low mood together with stomach & joint issues plus cold flushes rather than hot flushes. But I'm nearly 3 years postmeno and things seem to be easing off. Lets hope it continues to improve and it doesn't get worse. I have decided to stay positive about this. I know a good bunch ladies who are well into postmenopause and they are doing fine. Not everyone of us will get VA, osteoporosis and a host of other 'oestrogen defficiency-related' health issues.
Surely, any disease that we may get cannot be linked solely to a lack of oestrogen. To me, it's more to do with ageing and it doesn't matter whether you're a man or a woman. As for HRT itself, I've never been on it as I prefer to do things as naturally as possible and I don't want any side effects. I think that HRT can relieve symptoms in most women and that's a good thing but, at the same time, it cannot reverse the natural decline of oestrogen, which happens in the background and, perhaps, supplementing one's body with artificial hormones might delay things. This could be the reason why some women have their symptoms 'come back' when they stop HRT. I really don't know why some women have no issues with the menopause while others do and it seems unfair. It would be interesting to have an insight as to why some women struggle with the menopause while other don't. Could it be in our genes? Who knows?
Karine
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Karine, thank you for your message, this is exactly what I have been worrying about - I thought if I am giving my body body identical hormones then how does my body adjust to the decline in the hormones my body makes itself. How does the body know that the hormones I am putting have not been made by my body. I thought it must just prolong the issue and I thought I would rather just live with the symptoms than mess with my body’s natural processes. I always said I would never take HRT and I tried to stop them last night and it was awful. I don’t think I could hold down a job and run a house on very little sleep or poor quality light sleep or when I’m so fatigued. I still don’t fully understand menopause as there is so much conflicting information around. I’m not sure what I am going to do in the long term. I need to discuss it with my GP. I hope this all makes sense, it is the middle of the night! All I know is the progesterone made me feel much better last night (I probably got a shock because Of the sudden contrast between being on HRT then not ) and I just want to feel ok right now. It was a nice surprise to find your post just now and every different perspective I get from the ladies on here is helping me gradually build up a picture of the situation and hopefully with time I will become clear on what’s best for me. X
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Just to add that progesterone withdrawal is very severe for the first few days so that is why it made you felt much better retaking it as you interrupted the withdrawal. I think you need about 7 days off of oestrogen (and progesterone slightly less) to get back to normal.
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It would be reassuring to know that the debiliatating sympoms some women experience during menopause, have a definite shelf life. Sadly, not even that is guaranteed.
I also cannot understand how some women seemingly sail through, whilst others are at deaths door half the time.
I still maintain the argument, that women are not biologically meant to live beyond menopause. Instead, we find ourselves trialling this hormone, that hormone and a bit of the other, for good measure. Nothing we take, will ever replace our levels pre meno levels: instead, we are left to mdudle through, trying to find some symptom control, to allow us to sleep, work and function (often at great financial expense!)
I would give up HRT in a heartbeat, if it were not for my bladder going crackers. I mean, no amount of vagifem or ovestin sorts out the constant weeing. I have to take systemic HRT and for that, I am so annoyed. Reason, because I have experienced so many side effects, bleeding etc etc.. I actually dislike taking HRT. In truth, I am not even looking at long term health benefits of HRT. More, just to avoid weeing 100 times at work!
I think menopause as a whole, is very misunderstood. But I am SO envious of women who are just cracking on with life, without having to deal with awful symptoms.
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Great post Nas. I am with you with this. I wish I did not have to take HRT, I have tried natural remedies and had breaks but I am sure that some can sail through or get by on a couple of symptoms but I feel like I am thirty years older and can barely put one foot in front of other when I stop . I have a endocrine related medical issue and I am sure this does not help. I have decided to take up weight lifting as I have heard this helps, I will do anything if it helps.
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Hi Katberine,
I am glad that you liked my post.
Where are you on your meno journey? Are you peri ot post?
Going back to your initial post, it can be scary and discouraging when you come across articles where they tell you that the menopause symptoms can last years or forever. This only causes us to blame the menopause for everything and one might not consider that there are hereditary illnesses and age-related diseases.
Karine
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Menopause is natural. Both my grans lived into their 80s having had 4 children each. Both died in 1981/82. HRT wasn't discussed. We at least have options!
My Mum's sister lived until she was 80; Mum is 95 - HRT not discussed. I do worry about ladies in Care Situations with VA :'(
Potassium in bananas ;)
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I am with you Queen..
I too have had breaks,taken lower doses etc etc..BUT each time this has happened, bang.. life becomes hell with the baldder.
It is so consuming and stressful, I hate it.
I am determined to take some form of exercise, swimming, anything to try and feel better.
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Menopause is natural. Both my grans lived into their 80s having had 4 children each. Both died in 1981/82. HRT wasn't discussed. We at least have options!
Meno may be natural, but nothing natural about the horrendous symptoms some of us endure.
Indeed, thank the drug companies for options! :)
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Without a good GP who spotted my repeated urine infection-type symptoms: and was cross that none of my urine samples and been sent for testing at a Lab.; I couldn't have lived with those symptoms without appropriate treatment ;).
I think that other conditions have ups and downs: diabetes, thyroid function : add hormones to that lot!
Group :hug:
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Karine I still have regular periods, I’m 46, but I have physical and emotional symptoms of falling estrogen and progesterone. My gp says peri but it’s been pointed out here that if peri isn’t til your periods are irregular. I have for example hot flushes, light/ poor quality sleep, vaginal dryness, inflammation, no sex drive, an anterior prolapse since my late thirties, and low energy. The HRT isn’t perfect but better than the alternative.
Dangermouse, what you said about progesterone withdrawal made sense. If I did try and come off HRT I wonder if there is anything to make the withdrawal easier… anyway I’m staying on it for now. Are you taking HRT?
CLKD, I’m sure there is magnesium in bananas too, but will double check ;)
I’m glad that you got your symptoms sorted, aren’t good doctors the best! X
Does anyone have insane cravings for sweet foods? I want to lose weight but it feels impossible, I’m sure progesterone makes me hungry!
Nas, I agree that women aren’t really meant to live beyond their 50s if nature took its own course. I think in the 1800s women usually lived til their 50s. I would probably not be here without iron supplements as I got anaemia due to heavy periods a few years ago. So one way of looking at it is the HRT enables us to an extent to reduce any symptoms we may have which is a good thing. It’s not natural to take iron either, or have eye surgery or dental crowns but then we wouldn’t be without these things. So it is a dilemma, I can see it from all sides but I’m the end my symptoms and will dictate what I do…By the way Nas I would highly recommend swimming, I find just being in the water feels therapeutic. X
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I don’t like taking hrt either. Nas and Queen - totally agree with what you have said. I don’t like taking any type of medicines and resisted hrt for very a long time because i was against hrt and it worried me so much, but then the symptoms got much worse not better and I didn’t have a “choice” in the matter any more. I couldn’t care less about any possible long term benefits of hrt and I have had to resign myself to the fact now that I’ll probably be on it (systemic patches, and local vagifem ) long term because it’s the only thing that controls the V.A regardless of any other issues.
I don’t blame the menopause for everything that crops up, but I do know this: HRT = all symptoms completely/ 90% well controlled; NO HRT = all symptoms return and out of control.
I too have done “trials without” hrt that have meant return of specific and awful symptoms that have then been difficult to get under control again so I think I pretty much know exactly what is meno-related and what isn’t/might not be.
My mum sailed through an early menopause no problems whatsoever. A friend my age stopped taking the pill age 50-ish and never had another period or any symptoms of meno at all. I’ve given up wondering about how long symptoms might last. I just have to accept the way things are.
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It is what it is. Each of us are different. Would you fight against other medications i.e. diabetic, thyroid function ........ :-\
HRT is that : replacement therapy : Try not to compare others with how you are feeling? That'll get you where exactly?
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Very true, CLkD. I wouldn’t resist any other meds for those type of conditions. I think I just I’ve found it hard to accept my situation, but that doesn’t help at all does it. My husband takes all kinds of meds for diabetes, copd, blood pressure, cholesterol, gerd and he doesn’t bat an eyelid - just accepts what is and keeps taking the pills and is well and happy without any additional issues of resentment or anxiety or care about what the rest of the world thinks. I suppose his conditions/meds are more readily accepted by society maybe. Dunno. I also think I’m the type of person who holds a massive grudge against all of my physical issues!! Hehe!
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I think the difference between HRT and other medications is the fact that menopause symptoms may go away after a few years so it is a dilemma as to whether you want to try and wait for the end of symptoms rather than take it and risk prolonging or worsening your situation. Also the question of side effects. There’s a lot to weigh up. Whereas with illnesses, they may be ‘permanent’ so it is much more of an easy decision to take them. But of course HRT symptoms may be intolerable and then the decision is more clear cut. I find it useful to compare myself with how others are feeling in the same situation as it’s another good source of info on my journey but of course in the end I alone make the decision. I think everyone’s view is valid.
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Yes, it’s definitely a dilemma, with a lot of unknowns because everyone is so different. I’ve wrestled with it all for some time - I’ve had severe symptoms for about 14 years, controlled only by hrt, and have tried literally every other natural way possible and spent a fortune on it all. It would be lovely to see an end in sight but I think I’ve read on here on the various V.A threads that that symptoms of V.A do not go away or improve with time without treatment and the condition is actually long term once it starts, although I maybe wrong/ not fully up to date about that - my brain is like a sieve. For me - I need both local and systemic hrt to control it. All views definitely valid and the forum is a great source of info. and has helped me many times.
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Jojo, what is VA? I’m sorry I am very new to all of this. I just googled it and it came up with volt- ampere which I’m sure is the wrong answer!!
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Haha!! Oh that did make me chuckle. Sorry, I should have written it properly - Vaginal Atrophy. There are lots of threads on the forum about it. I have symptoms that affect my bladder and a recent flare-up that felt like having the worst bout of cystitis in the history of the world. I didn’t know until this year that “flare-ups” were even a thing as the v.a had been well under control until then. When I first started with it I had problems with vaginal dryness, vulval itching and burning and soreness with splits in the skin between labia and then I developed bladder problems with it too. I’m sure others will add some more info about the condition here too as I’m not fully up to date with everything. Also I had a nasty bout of heat exhaustion recently so my brain is on a go slow! My volt-ampere has blown a gasket!! lol ;D
Ah, just thought…It might be referred to as urogenital syndrome of menopause… I think. Blimey, I think I might be the worst advice-giver in the world. I get anxious that I might be saying the wrong thing or making things up as I go along!! Don’t quote me on anything. I’m basically a walking disaster.
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Actually Jojo I found your answer very useful. I take vaginal oestrogen for dryness, inflammation and anterior prolapse so I guess that’s what you’re talking about. Even if I ever stopped systemic HRT I would still continue with that because it has helped. I’m glad I made you chuckle btw! X
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Hi Jojo,
How long did you have VA for? When did it start?
I don't have it and I will be 3 years postmeno in January 2023. I'm wonsering if it could start then. Also, I haven''t had children. Do I have less risk of developping VA?
Thanks.
Karine
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Thank you, Katherine. I’m glad it was helpful. I do get terrible anxiety about getting things wrong. Yes, the local oestrogen definitely helps. Although V.A seems to have been progressive for me. I started using the vagifem twice a week and now, after a recent flare up, I have to use it every night to keep things controlled or else I get bladder pain and urinary urgency and frequency.
Hi Karine, I think it started about 5 years ago - quite a long time after I’d already started systemic hrt for flushes, night sweats, joint pain etc. I’m not sure where I am in terms of meno - if I’m still peri or post, although I’m on sequi hrt and get a bleed every 28 days which I think might still be my own cycle breaking through. I didn’t know anything about V.A at the time. but had a lovely doctor who recognised the signs and was in contact with the local meno advice service at my local hospital. I’m not sure about developing the condition in the post-meno years - hopefully someone who has had experience of this might add to this thread soon. I haven’t had children either, but it’s probably just my bad luck as I seem to be one of those unfortunate women with the perimeno from hell. A lot of women do develop it, but not all by any means. My best friend is two or three years post meno, not on hrt, with absolutely no vaginal or bladder issues, no sign of it at all. I know quite a few women in that same situation.
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Katherine, just to say - have you tried taking the utrogestan a bit earlier in the evening? Like a few hours earlier? It might not work out with when you eat or what you want to do in the evenings, but it would mean that it wears off earlier in the mornings maybe ;D Or you could try it vaginally?
Having done all the research into estrogen I've now done, I'd be afraid not to be on HRT to be honest. I feel very sorry for women who can't take it, my poor mum being one of them - having estrogen positive breast cancer many years back and now being almost 70 and on Letrizole to block any iota of estrogen her body might otherwise make. As well as having had an ovario-hysterectomy for fibroids before that. Now all this info is coming out, she would fall into the 'possibly too old to start it' category and I can't bring myself to try to explain to her why and what she would need to do to try to get it. She seems okay anyway, symptom-wise, except for VA and a prolapse.
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joziel - does your Mum have appropriate VA treatment?
How is the prolapse being managed, she may benefit from seeing a womens physio.
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Yes, she went to her GP who diagnosed the prolapse (I think she was worried it was something life threatening) and thankfully gave her Vagifem for it. I don’t know much more about it - she doesn’t really talk about stuff like that much!
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It's difficult sometimes to chat to your children about such stuff. I hope she's doing her pelvic floor exercises. She would benefit from a referral to a specialist physio which may stop the prolapse worsening. I'm 68 and have had hysterectomy for prolapse which led to more prolapses. Rock and a hard place! Is your mum still working or is she able to take rests during the day if the prolapse feels uncomfy?
Taz x
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She's retired now. She seems fine. She is very overweight, an alcoholic and really doesn't look after herself. She's 68yo. We've basically been expecting her to drop dead for about 20 years but somehow she keeps going - must be good genes!
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My VA started years after my periods went away. Natural ageing as ostrogen levels drop for which appropriate treatment really helps!
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Hi all, just to update you, I have had no issues with the utrogestan since I was last on here. I think either it had built up in my system a bit and missing a dose corrected that or I had a big fluctuation in my own progesterone. Joziel, yes I’ve noticed that when I take it earlier in the evening that does help. I do want to take it orally as it does greatly increase the quality of my sleep. I’m going to ask my gp if it’s ok to just miss a dose now and then if I need to.
While we are on the subject of prolapses, does anyone know if pelvic floor exercises are enough to reverse a mild to moderate anterior prolapse? Because I’ve been doing them and it they don’t seem to help. I can feel everything lifting when I do them but they don’t stay lifted. I am on the waiting list for physio. I’m 46 and never had children and not overweight so I don’t know how I even got a prolapse. I think this symptom upsets me more than any other tbh.
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I don’t know much about prolapses except I think local estrogen/Vagifem helps - are you on that? And there is an NHS app you can download called Squeezee which reminds you to do your exercises. It’s several times a day and it’s a pain in the butt. Are you doing them enough?? I tried to for a while for general health but gave up 😂
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Hi Joziel, I think maybe I wasn’t doing them enough previously. A specialist nurse told me years ago to do 10 squeezes a day but I recently got Louise Newson’s book and she recommends 30! So I’ve been trying to do that by setting the alarm on my phone. I agree they are a pain to do. I am on vaginal estradiol tablets which I think improved things a bit. I take 2 tablets per week.
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The Squeezee app thing gives you an alert I think 3x a day to do it, and it has one of those enlarging and decreasing circles on the screen - so whilst it is getting bigger, you are squeezing more...
You can also buy some gadget thing from the US which is a vaginal dilator, connected by Bluetooth to your phone - and it can sense when you are squeezing and how hard. You then play a game on your phone which is like Mario Brothers ;D ;D ;D squeezing more to get your man on the screen to jump and relaxing when you want him to go under something. Wowsers, maybe it would be so much fun you'd have the fittest pelvic floor ever ;D ;D ;D ;D I'm not sure it's available in the UK yet.
It's called Perifit - google it ;D
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MayB see a physiotherapist who is au fait with Kegel exercises, one can do the 'wrong' sort if not educated on what is required.
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Joziel, thanks for the info. The app does sound like a more fun way to do them 😂
CLKD, I’m on the list for a physio but apparently it is long. The gynae nurse I saw did say I was doing them right. I will try and find out how long the list is. I don’t think private healthcare providers cover anything menopause related.
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Let us know how you get on?
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Will do. Thanks ladies x