Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: pepperminty on June 29, 2022, 04:55:50 PM
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Hi ladies,
I was prescribed premarin ( estrogen ) years ago (when it was prempac C ). I took it with trepidation but literally within a few days , my skin was glowing and I looked really well. It was like I had lost 10 years off my face, and given me new skin. I had no aches and pains and that was great. Vagina
back to normal .The only thing was a bit of AM nausea. Boobs a little sore - but I would take sore boobs over anxiety, pain and exhaustion.
Anyway the progesterone part of that particular HRT drove me insane - no sleep , sweating ( which was not one of my then symptoms before I took it! ) and emotional.
Anyway after 3 months I came off it as I could not stand the progesterone and started the one I am on now.
This HRT is Femosten which increased my aches , but evened everything else out eventually.
Anyway I have tried upping the dosage to the equivalent dose of the Premarin I previously took and my face came up puffy literally over night and my skin went terrible. It was like I aged 10 years, dark circles also.
So I was stuck with my low dose.
So my conclusion is some estrogens may suit some better than others.
I don't think it is just an absorption thing for me as both are oral HRT. The conjugated estrogens worked well it seems - not so much the estrogen in Femosten.
I wonder why this would be that one estrogen made me well and glow and the other just keeps me ticking ( although not so much anymore).
PMxx
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It’s interesting as Premarin is what my 70 year old mum takes and has done for decades. She swears by it, 1mg daily. It addresses all her symptoms effectively. She is gob smacked that I have been through so many preparations in two years!
Avum Bluming, author of oestrogen matters, is an advocate of Premarin also ( I think ).
I think the conjugated oestrogen types are under represented personally.
I also tried femeston ( conti) The progesterone was great, but the oestrogen way too low.
It is true, not all oestrogens work in the same way ( except they should!)
🙂
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It’s interesting as Premarin is what my 70 year old mum takes and has done for decades. She swears by it, 1mg daily. It addresses all her symptoms effectively. She is gob smacked that I have been through so many preparations in two years!
Avum Bluming, author of oestrogen matters, is an advocate of Premarin also ( I think ).
I think the conjugated oestrogen types are under represented personally.
I also tried femeston ( conti) The progesterone was great, but the oestrogen way too low.
It is true, not all oestrogens work in the same way ( except they should!)
🙂
Hi Nas,
does she use utrogestan with it ?
PMXX
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No PM, she had a hysterectomy years ago x
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I’m interested in Premarin having read the the Oestrogen matters book as it contains several estrogens and one which has shown benefits in protecting us from dementia . Would like to hear more about it from those that take it .
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I’m interested in Premarin having read the the Oestrogen matters book as it contains several estrogens and one which has shown benefits in protecting us from dementia . Would like to hear more about it from those that take it .
It has bad press due to obvious reasons. I suspect those who take it keep quiet. The author does think it is a good estrogen. I do not know of any stdies saying otherwise. It was the progesterones in the mix that were the culprits.
PMXX
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Thanks for the different take on premarin. It's such a pity that we are stuck with studies that don't isolate the estrogen & progesterone components.
Some of the synthetic progesterones seem to be clearly problematic & I have found challenges in finding the optimal dose of even bio-id progesterone. I appreciate that this is an estrogen thread & will be interested to learn if there are any other premarin experiences from those who don't need to take a progestin.
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It will be more than annoying if I have been taking the wrong sort of oestrogen to help prevent dementia. It's my biggest fear, getting Alzheimer's. A very interesting thread. I wonder how we can find out more.
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It will be more than annoying if I have been taking the wrong sort of oestrogen to help prevent dementia. It's my biggest fear, getting Alzheimer's. A very interesting thread. I wonder how we can find out more.
I think the link is obvious , but not proven with dementia.Since the scare when ladies stopped HRT the rates have gone up. There must be more studies somewhere. I have met many older people with dementia, and believe me it is a horrendous disease. Especially if you are incontinent .
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So are you going to see if you can go back on Premarin?
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So are you going to see if you can go back on Premarin?
I think I will, I did want to try estrogel - but there is a shortage here and I could not face changing to something you can't get! I have other health issues at the moment , so I need to get those a bit better before I do anything, so I can get a clear run . Otherwise I wont know what symptoms are caused by what. Change is scary. The change to Utro scares me more. Dygesterone suits me and I always hoped that they will bring it back - what with the new interest in menopause etc.
I know I will have to try and change HRT - but work, and other health issues happen to scupper me.
PMXX
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I have read very few negatives about Premarin. My mum is as sharp as a piñ on it and she only had to miss 2 doses maximum and she’s a jittery wreck she says. For her it works a treat. She has had far better symptom relief on Premarin, than I’ve ever had with these transdermal preparations, which are meant to be better!
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Nas do you think you might give it a try? How easy is it to get a prescription? I am curious as I did read the book, Oestrogen Matters and found it a bit unsettling as it did seem to suggest that maybe the new body identical hormones aren't as good at preventing some diseases as the older types.
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I would probably need 2mg Gnatty, but would never rule trying it out.
Obviously ethics comes into play and that does put me off a bit.
But, if it sorted my symptoms, better, I wouldn’t hesitate.
Obtaining a prescription, is easy i think.
If the new body identical products were so great, I don’t know why many women struggle with them. Bleeding seems a big issue for many too.
And utrogestan, well if it is body identical, why again, do so many women react adversely? Yet, it is favored time and time again, over synthetic progesterone.
It’s all trial at the end of the day I suppose. What works for one, doesn’t necessarily for the other. Often I think too, that when we switch products, we are swapping one set of symptoms for another!
X
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I agree wholeheartedly Nas!
There’s something not right somewhere and can’t get to the bottom of it.
I can’t understand why so many women drop out of hrt, many in the first 3-6 months.
This did not, so I understand, be the case prior to the 2002 WHI study.
Being a horse owner for a lot of my life, I would really struggle with taking Premarin. I wouldn’t know what to do if this turned out to be a route out of all this for me.
It’s not so much that’s it’s made from
Pregnant mares urine, after all many of consume cows, goats milk. It’s the ethics behind it’s collection and quality of life that’s the issue for me.
That said, I wholeheartedly defend any Women’s choice to take it. X
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Yes March, it’s all very odd.
Personally, I think it’s a combo of mud sticks, along with so many HRT preparations to choose from, Gps lack of knowledge, fear and women not simply asking for HRT because they feel they should suck it up.
As with everything now, we have too much choice and HRT is no exception
The newer preparations are more popular than the old, that is clear.
I too would struggle with the ethics behind Premarin..but if it meant I felt more well on it, than currently, it would become a real moral dilemma!
X
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Nas - this is interesting regarding Bioidentical vs Premarin
Scroll down to the section ‘Natural Claims’
X
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Hi Marchlove and Nas,
I too don't like the ethics around Premarin, but I suspect that if we knew the origins and practices with most drug manufacturing we would be horrified.
I can't think that in this day and age that the previous practices would have improved I hope.
I do think the ratio of women currently stopping HRT due to side effects is higher . As you say Marchlove prior to 2002 this did not happen. I think then Premarin was the drug of choice. I think it had and still has good results ( according to my meno specialist. Most women felt well on it. )
I feel ok ish on femosten - but felt great on premarin, which was a higher dose than my current regime , but I cant go higher on my current one due to terrible side effects.
PMxx
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Out of interest pepperminty, what dose of Premarin did you take?
Are you on femeston conti now, or the sequi?
You are right, if we knew how many products are actually produced, we would probably never touch half of them again!
X
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Whoops sorry didn’t post the link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioidentical_hormone_replacement_therapy
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Out of interest pepperminty, what dose of Premarin did you take?
Are you on femeston conti now, or the sequi?
You are right, if we knew how many products are actually produced, we would probably never touch half of them again!
X
Was Medium dose Premarin, and on low dose sequi femosten now - ached more and more stiff on this - the premarin got rid of all pain over night. Including a limp i had every morning!
PMxx
PMxx
PMXX
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Whoops sorry didn’t post the link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioidentical_hormone_replacement_therapy
Will read link tomorrow xx
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Ah okay. Was it 0.625mg or 1mg Premarin? I’m contemplating it and trying to work out the dose.
X
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Another thing to bear in mind is that when we were prescribed things ‘years ago’ and they worked, of course we were younger, our bodies worked differently, we had different levels of our own hormones going on etc etc. so it’s probably not an ideal direct comparison. It could be that you had some of your own estrogen going on then and so the dose of Premarin was enough to make you feel fabulous. Now you will have a much lower level of naturally produced estrogen so that will be a big factor. Of course it may well be that the conjugated equine estrogen does suit you better, but it’s worth remembering that you yourself will have had a different physiological response then.
I’ve found this myself recently while taking Provera. Took it years ago (at a much higher dose) and got on great, however it doesn’t seem to agree with me so well now and I have decided to revert back to Femoston which contains dydrogesterone which now seems to be the only progesterone I can tolerate. As I’ve got older with low levels of natural estrogen and progesterone I have become much more sensitive to small changes in dosage.x
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That’s a fair point flora and definitely worth considering.
The progesterone element seems to present the most challenges to women who wish or need to take HRT. I too like the progesterone in femeston, but wasn’t absorbing much of the Oestrogen at all.
In honesty, it’s a minefield! X
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Ah okay. Was it 0.625mg or 1mg Premarin? I’m contemplating it and trying to work out the dose.
X
It was 0.62 mg - the next one up is 1.25. The only thing i had was nausea AM, bit of boob tenderness ( that was a walk in the park compared to exhaustion, VA, anxiety etc.)
It was the progesterone part that drove me insane.
PMX
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Another thing to bear in mind is that when we were prescribed things ‘years ago’ and they worked, of course we were younger, our bodies worked differently, we had different levels of our own hormones going on etc etc. so it’s probably not an ideal direct comparison. It could be that you had some of your own estrogen going on then and so the dose of Premarin was enough to make you feel fabulous. Now you will have a much lower level of naturally produced estrogen so that will be a big factor. Of course it may well be that the conjugated equine estrogen does suit you better, but it’s worth remembering that you yourself will have had a different physiological response then.
I’ve found this myself recently while taking Provera. Took it years ago (at a much higher dose) and got on great, however it doesn’t seem to agree with me so well now and I have decided to revert back to Femoston which contains dydrogesterone which now seems to be the only progesterone I can tolerate. As I’ve got older with low levels of natural estrogen and progesterone I have become much more sensitive to small changes in dosage.x
Hi,
I tried Femosten at the same time and the effects of the estrogen part were not as effective as the premarin. But the progesterone part of the preparation in Prempac C drove me insane and made me sweat.
It is a mine field
PMxx
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Hi Pepperminty and Nas. Yes it does seem to be that we often end up limited in our HRT choices mainly because of the inability to tolerate progestins. I have now tried every single one that’s currently on the market either as a separate product combined with an estrogen eg Evorel patch plus Provera, or as a combined product, Femseven conti, Evorel Conti etc and others and have come to the conclusion that the dydrogesterone only one that doesn’t make me feel like crap in one way or another! Really sometimes makes me wish I’d had a hysterectomy years ago! Onwards and upwards though x
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Totally agree Flora.
Without the progesterone to fathom out, I feel sure the HRT journey would be far easier!
I find it incredible that we spend so much time and effort in trying to feel remotely better. Yet really, it’s probably nigh on impossible to replicate the hormone levels of our youth, so we must settle for a happy medium
( somehow)
I would quite like to see where I am at in terms of symptoms, but a little scared to take the plunge and go without any form of HRT!
Xx
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And wouldn't it be so much better if they all came as a standalone product so we could pick the oestrogen that suited us best too.
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Absolutely Sheila
If only we could just go into Boots and pick and choose what we wanted for 0£ , 0 questions and 0 hassle.. bliss
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Hi ladies,
there are loads of estrogens to try- but not many progesterone. There is the issue, i believe.
Also, as Floradora says your reactions can change over time. I know some ladies on here who have been " P " intolerant and then later on have found it OK. The trouble is unless you have support and a great specialist of GP , you can go insane worrying which adds to the mix.
Then one attributes everything/ symptoms to HRT. There have been ladies who say that they had bad reactions to HRT and stopped and still had the symptoms , so realised it wasn't the HRT.
I suspect that the Premarin is very effective overall.
Again they should bring back Dydrogesterone separately for all. It has a great safety record.
I do not think they have done enough research on types of estrogens working better on a cellular level and less side effects than others.
We are living longer and need our bodies to work as well as they can .
More research needs to be done and the government and the medical profession should realise that preventative is far better than crisis management.
Gone are the days when women could stop work at 50 years and become a housewife quietly suffering behind closed doors. You cannot see by looking at someone if they have VA, Uti's, anxiety, night sweats etc . But they all impact on general and mental health. Our world is more fast paced and stressful than it was 50 years ago.
You are lucky if you do not have to work and can manage the symptoms without it impacting on employment. I suspect that most put up and shut up .
PMxx
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Great post Pepperminty. I agree totally. We are now living a good 30, 40 and even 50 years post menopausally whereas 100 years ago you would be lucky to live 10-15 years post menopause. That’s a long time to be without vital hormones in your system. And definitely I wish they would bring back dydrogesterone as a separate product. When I lived abroad I got it . It was called Duphaston or something I think. It has years of research behind it and as you say, an excellent safely record and is very well tolerated. It is structurally very similar to natural progesterone but very small doses are required to be effective so those that don’t get on with Utrogesten due to the high dosage required might very well find that dydrogesterone does the trick. It’s such a pity that it’s only available in Femoston as a combined product x
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Great post Pepperminty. I agree totally. We are now living a good 30, 40 and even 50 years post menopausally whereas 100 years ago you would be lucky to live 10-15 years post menopause. That’s a long time to be without vital hormones in your system. And definitely I wish they would bring back dydrogesterone as a separate product. When I lived abroad I got it . It was called Duphaston or something I think. It has years of research behind it and as you say, an excellent safely record and is very well tolerated. It is structurally very similar to natural progesterone but very small doses are required to be effective so those that don’t get on with Utrogesten due to the high dosage required might very well find that dydrogesterone does the trick. It’s such a pity that it’s only available in Femoston as a combined product x
I wish the menopause experts would all club together - Nick Panay, Newson , and all the others and write a letter to who ever makes these decisions and reinstate it as a separate " P".
You would think such a simple thing would be possible - it isn't a new drug and may save a lot of money and NHS time in the long run. But every specialist does their own thing and even the ones that "know" each other aren't aware that it can be prescribed - if you jump through hoops.
PMxx
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Please excuse my ignorance Pepperminty, but could you explain why it would be beneficial to prescribe dydrogestetone as a separate product?
Is it so that one could do a sequential regime which you can’t do with Femeston?
If so what dosage would be needed?
X
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God it would be amazing for drydrogesterome to be available as a stand alone progesterone. I have no clue why it is only available in femeston.
We are so limited with progesterone. It’s either utrogestan, the coil or if you can get it , provera. There are so many Oestrogen products, yet it is the progesterone which a majority of women struggle with. Pure madness!
I don’t feel we have moved that far with HRT , considering as you say PM and Flora, that women are living for many years beyond menopause now, not to mention being expected to work until we drop!
Grrhh. I hate being a woman!
X
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Please excuse my ignorance Pepperminty, but could you explain why it would be beneficial to prescribe dydrogestetone as a separate product?
Is it so that one could do a sequential regime which you can’t do with Femeston?
If so what dosage would be needed?
X
Hi,
Duphaston ( the product name) is a separate product all on its own , so you could ? can use it with any estrogen . In Femosten it is combined with the estrogen in one tablet , so you can't use it with esttogel or sandrena etc
It would be the same amount as in 1/10 and 2/10 which is a standard dosage . I think it is in the treatment tabs here somewhere . It would be useful to have it again , so ladies could use it with trans-dermal if Utro did not suit. It has an excellent safety record.
PMXX
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Coming late to this interesting thread but just wanted to say that when I read Estrogen Matters I was quite shocked that the author seemed very dismissive of body identical estrogen as here in the UK at any rate it's been drilled into us that this is by far the better formula.
I also recall that one of the equine estrogens was singled out in the book as being neuroprotective (sorry I don't have the book to hand) however a study of 2014 unequivocally concluded that "Estradiol, but not Premarin, preserves key brain regions in postmenopausal women at risk for dementia" (and it even concludes that premarin "Premarin actually appeared to accelerate some of these brain regions’ metabolic decline) https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2014/03/estradiol-but-not-premarin-preserves-key-brain-regions-in-postmenopausal-women-at-risk-for-dementia-study-shows.html (https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2014/03/estradiol-but-not-premarin-preserves-key-brain-regions-in-postmenopausal-women-at-risk-for-dementia-study-shows.html)
I suspect that as others have suggested there is nowhere near sufficient depth and breadth of study of the different forms of estrogen and this coupled with the huge variety of individual response makes it incredibly difficult to navigate.
More so considering that, as I see it, HRT has two clearly distinct remits: one is to 'make me feel better right now', the other is 'protect me against serious future health problems that beset many women who don't supplement' (ie. cardiac, cognitivie and muscular-skeletal decline).
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God it would be amazing for drydrogesterome to be available as a stand alone progesterone. I have no clue why it is only available in femeston.
We are so limited with progesterone. It’s either utrogestan, the coil or if you can get it , provera. There are so many Oestrogen products, yet it is the progesterone which a majority of women struggle with. Pure madness!
I don’t feel we have moved that far with HRT , considering as you say PM and Flora, that women are living for many years beyond menopause now, not to mention being expected to work until we drop!
Grrhh. I hate being a woman!
X
In 20 years time they might do something - again when a further crisis hits. I can't see the youngsters today putting up with the gas lighting and ignorance we do.
It is a shame that Dr Currie cannot lobby the troupes and bring it back.
The louder the voice the more chance it will get done. Lets face it - it is already out there - good safety record - suits most- could save the NHS a lot of money in time and repeat visits etc -
PMXX
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Coming late to this interesting thread but just wanted to say that when I read Estrogen Matters I was quite shocked that the author seemed very dismissive of body identical estrogen as here in the UK at any rate it's been drilled into us that this is by far the better formula.
I also recall that one of the equine estrogens was singled out in the book as being neuroprotective (sorry I don't have the book to hand) however a study of 2014 unequivocally concluded that "Estradiol, but not Premarin, preserves key brain regions in postmenopausal women at risk for dementia" (and it even concludes that premarin "Premarin actually appeared to accelerate some of these brain regions’ metabolic decline) https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2014/03/estradiol-but-not-premarin-preserves-key-brain-regions-in-postmenopausal-women-at-risk-for-dementia-study-shows.html (https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2014/03/estradiol-but-not-premarin-preserves-key-brain-regions-in-postmenopausal-women-at-risk-for-dementia-study-shows.html)
I suspect that as others have suggested there is nowhere near sufficient depth and breadth of study of the different forms of estrogen and this coupled with the huge variety of individual response makes it incredibly difficult to navigate.
More so considering that, as I see it, HRT has two clearly distinct remits: one is to 'make me feel better right now', the other is 'protect me against serious future health problems that beset many women who don't supplement' (ie. cardiac, cognitive and muscular-skeletal decline).
I agree - feel good now and future protect .I think the studies were done after menopause and not well interpreted. I think dementia went down before the hrt scare. And went up with declining use. - and we live longer etc .
If more studies were done then we would have more idea , but this will take years and women have never been a priority.
PMXX