Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: 2cats on June 19, 2022, 11:08:34 AM
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Hi all,
Have just moved over to provera 12 days a month after using utrogestan vaginally for 12 days. On 2 pumps of Oestrogel and 100mcg oestrodot patches as oestradiol levels were 81 last month. I’ve been feeling awful for at least the last year with anxiety and tears. It has taken me back to when I first started this journey about 12 years ago before hrt helped straighten me out.
I thought provera would be a good idea as I had the depo injection as contraception twenty five years ago and I remember thinking it suited me well. However, 3 pills in and I’m in floods of tears feeling very miserable and flat today. Could it be the provera? I thought this was a kind progesterone. I’m used to tears but I feel it’s connected to the provera. I’d be interested to hear your thoughts.
So sick of this rollercoaster.
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Hello 2cats. I had the same reaction with provera. I felt so low and depressed. I am sorry you are feeling this way.
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Hi 2cats
I feel the same and have a mirena. I don’t know what’s causing it, but it’s wretched!
If you temporarily stop the provera, you will know whether it’s that which is making you feel rubbish.
Why did you swap from utrogestan to provera?
Xx
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What did you do flossieteacake? Did you continue or stop the provera? I hope you’re feeling better now.
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Hi Nas
Sorry to hear you’re feeling wretched on the Mirena coil. Can you ask to get it taken out? I tried it as contraception years ago but my body really didn’t like it from a physical pov.
I changed from utrogestan as I notice it gives me bloating and ibs symptoms (provera is making me constipated so not much difference). Also, using it vaginally for 12 days means I can’t use topical oestrogen for vaginal dryness. It also makes me increasingly irritated and intolerant! May have to go back to it as can’t be without progesterone.
I wonder if provera symptoms will ease off the more I use it?
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Hi 2cats
As with all these things, it can take an age and a day for our bodies to adjust. Trouble is, life carries on and when feeling wretched, that’s hard.
You might get used to provera, the longer you take it. Fingers crossed you adjust soon.
I will try and give the mirena a bit longer. I’m away on holiday at the beginning of August and really don’t want this nonsense then!
Really hope you feel better in the coming days and weeks.
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I have just gone back onto Oestrogel plus 2.5mg Provera after three years on it and a year off. ( i thought the HRT was exacerbating my migraines so weaned off).
I started with two pumps of gel ( as before) and my anxiety and paranoia hit the ROOF! I am def post meno ( 57) and I think my body just could not cope with that massive spike in oestrogen from probably none in my body. I reduced to one pump and have to say I feel so much better, so much. For me it wasn’t the progesterone but the oestrogen.
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What did you do flossieteacake? Did you continue or stop the provera? I hope you’re feeling better now.
I stopped it. I could not cope with the deep depression. I am okay now. It seems progesterone causes this for me.
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I think, if your estrogen levels were just 81, that might be the first thing to fix? Just in terms of you are probably very progesterone-heavy at the moment so whatever you try, might not work till you fix the estrogen?
If you're not absorbing from patches then perhaps switching totally to the gel is an idea? You might not need the equivalent squirts of it if you absorb it better....
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I think, if your estrogen levels were just 81, that might be the first thing to fix? Just in terms of you are probably very progesterone-heavy at the moment so whatever you try, might not work till you fix the estrogen?
If you're not absorbing from patches then perhaps switching totally to the gel is an idea? You might not need the equivalent squirts of it if you absorb it better....
Hi joziel
I’m getting another blood test today to check if my levels are going up with increased patch and gel. It will be interesting to find out as I’m still so far from the normal me. What you say about being progesterone heavy could be very true and if my oestrogen levels were right then the progesterone might not have such a heavy handed effect.
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What did you do flossieteacake? Did you continue or stop the provera? I hope you’re feeling better now.
I stopped it. I could not cope with the deep depression. I am okay now. It seems progesterone causes this for me.
Do you take a different progesterone instead?
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Hi 2cats
As with all these things, it can take an age and a day for our bodies to adjust. Trouble is, life carries on and when feeling wretched, that’s hard.
You might get used to provera, the longer you take it. Fingers crossed you adjust soon.
I will try and give the mirena a bit longer. I’m away on holiday at the beginning of August and really don’t want this nonsense then!
Really hope you feel better in the coming days and weeks.
Thanks Nas
I didn’t take anymore provera tabs as Sunday was such a bad day where I got up, cried, went for a run, came home, cried so went to bed till 5pm. Forced myself up and out with my dog for an hour but felt completely shattered. It’s too scary to feel like that again. I’ll have to take utrogestan now this month and think about trying provera again at a later date. I really hope your symptoms settle soon.
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I stopped it. I could not cope with the deep depression. I am okay now. It seems progesterone causes this for me.
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Do you take a different progesterone instead?
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At the moment I am trying destogel daily with 2 on alternate days. 2 a day is enough progesterone but I have not been able to tolerate that. I spoke to a menopause Dr last week who suggested I try 2 on alternate days.
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Do you mean desogestrel, Flossie?
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Do you mean desogestrel, Flossie?
Yes. Sorry about the spelling. :)
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Oh, that's interesting. There was a study (small-scale) where they used double the POP dose of desogestrel daily for HRT purposes and it was fine in terms of keeping the uterine lining thin. I don't know about less than that.
I'm on desogestrel POP (usual dose) at the moment, for endo purposes - as well as utrogestan 100mg. But I'm supposed to be trying to stop the POP and switch to 200mg of utrogestan each night instead. Except I'm just a bit exhausted from all this so I'm enjoying a few weeks of stability at the moment and not wanting to change anything ;D
Got a double appointment this Friday with a new menopause aware GP (doing BMS training) and will see what she says about it all. I have a hunch I'll be told just to stay as I am if it's working and I might do that and focus on increasing the estrogen for now rather than adjusting progesterone.
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Oh, that's interesting. There was a study (small-scale) where they used double the POP dose of desogestrel daily for HRT purposes and it was fine in terms of keeping the uterine lining thin. I don't know about less than that.
I'm on desogestrel POP (usual dose) at the moment, for endo purposes - as well as utrogestan 100mg. But I'm supposed to be trying to stop the POP and switch to 200mg of utrogestan each night instead. Except I'm just a bit exhausted from all this so I'm enjoying a few weeks of stability at the moment and not wanting to change anything ;D
Got a double appointment this Friday with a new menopause aware GP (doing BMS training) and will see what she says about it all. I have a hunch I'll be told just to stay as I am if it's working and I might do that and focus on increasing the estrogen for now rather than adjusting progesterone.
I am only doing it on alternative days to see if my body can tolerate it. The double dose is still needed daily.
I can imagine how the change of your medication is going to be stressfull. I hope your appointment goes well.
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Thanks Flossie. Let us know how the desogestrel goes for you.
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Thanks Flossie. Let us know how the desogestrel goes for you.
Sadly I cannot tolerate it. I have been crying and sad all day and wanting to die. It is such a shame. Thank you for asking after me.
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Oh no :( I'm sorry. What are you going to try now?
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Oh no :( I'm sorry. What are you going to try now?
Thank you. My next meno appointment is in September so I will have to wait and see what they say.
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I’m sorry :'( I hope they have ideas for you. It sounds like they are already thinking creatively and outside the box more than most doctors I’ve come across!
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I’ve not heard of desogestrel - is it a progesterone?
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I’m sorry :'( I hope they have ideas for you. It sounds like they are already thinking creatively and outside the box more than most doctors I’ve come across!
Thank you so much. It is the menopause clinic at Chelsea and Westminster.
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I’ve not heard of desogestrel - is it a progesterone?
It is mainly used as a contraceptive pill. It is progesterone. If the dose is doubled then it can be used as the progesterone component of HRT,
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This is the study where they used desogestrel for HRT purposes: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8429799/
The BMS in their extreme conservatism say "Earlier studies have reported that desogestrel 150 micrograms is effective as the progestogen component of HRT with no increase in the risk of endometrial hyperplasia. There is lack of evidence on the use of desogestrel 75 micrograms as the progestogen component of HRT. If desogestrel 75 micrograms is used as contraception in women receiving HRT, it would be recommended to add further progestogen (e.g. Utrogestan 100 mg daily or 200 mg for 12 days a month) to provide adequate endometrial protection."
https://thebms.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/14-BMS-TfC-Progestogens-and-endometrial-protection-01H.pdf
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Thanks Flossie. Let us know how the desogestrel goes for you.
Sadly I cannot tolerate it. I have been crying and sad all day and wanting to die. It is such a shame. Thank you for asking after me.
Oh flossieteacake that’s such a shame it’s having so awful an effect on you. I feel your pain. I love life and I’m a cheerful person but the thought of living this rollercoaster for god knows how long makes me wonder how I’ll keep going. I really hope you get some relief soon. Xx
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I got a text last night to say my oestradiol levels have reason in a month from 81 to 587! Shame I feel no different whatsoever. But maybe it’s early days. Can’t remember how long it took to feel better when I started hrt 12 years ago.
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Thanks Flossie. Let us know how the desogestrel goes for you.
Sadly I cannot tolerate it. I have been crying and sad all day and wanting to die. It is such a shame. Thank you for asking after me.
Oh flossieteacake that’s such a shame it’s having so awful an effect on you. I feel your pain. I love life and I’m a cheerful person but the thought of living this rollercoaster for god knows how long makes me wonder how I’ll keep going. I really hope you get some relief soon. Xx
That is so sweet of you to say. Thank you. I totally understand how you are feeling. It is horrid to need progesterone but be unable to deal with the side effects.
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2cats, those are great estradiol levels. What have you done to achieve that in a month?!
Flossie, I'm guessing you've already tried the Mirena coil? I do know some women who've even had a hysterectomy so they can have estrogen unopposed, although it seems a bit extreme!
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2cats, those are great estradiol levels. What have you done to achieve that in a month?!
Flossie, I'm guessing you've already tried the Mirena coil? I do know some women who've even had a hysterectomy so they can have estrogen unopposed, although it seems a bit extreme!
I have not. I do not want it. I do not to try it. I too have heard some women have a hysterectomy to avoid progersterone.
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Flossie, do you need the progesterone daily? Can’t you take it once every few days? There was a lady who posted a couple of weeks back, who was on sandrena, had a womb and didn’t take progesterone ( error on her gps part apparently!)
You could ditch the progesterone and have six monthly scans to check womb lining maybe? What Oestrogen do you use?
Xx
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Flossie, do you need the progesterone daily? Can’t you take it once every few days? There was a lady who posted a couple of weeks back, who was on sandrena, had a womb and didn’t take progesterone ( error on her gps part apparently!)
You could ditch the progesterone and have six monthly scans to check womb lining maybe? What Oestrogen do you use?
Xx
I am taking Evorel 100. I am not sure if it is possible to be on something that does not need to be taken daily. Even on alternate days I have the same awful symptoms. There is an issue with the scans. I am housebound so unable to have them. Thank you for thinking of me. :)
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Aww Flossie.. why are you housebound ? That’s not great for you x
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Aww Flossie.. why are you housebound ? That’s not great for you x
I am totally okay with it so please do not worry. :)
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2cats, those are great estradiol levels. What have you done to achieve that in a month?!
I added in one pump of gel whilst still using a 100mcg oestrodot patch, then after two weeks I added in a second pump in the evening. After I added in one pump of gel I had 11 days straight of feeling like my old self with no anxiety. It was amazing! It was like my body and mind heaved a massive sigh of relief. Unfortunately it didn’t last and I’m back to square one, hence the second pump.
I have been recalled to the meno clinic because of the level of 81 so will see what they say about what to do next.
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I reckon (total random stab in the dark) that you weren't really absorbing the patches at all. But you are absorbing the gel. See if you can ask to just use the gel at 2-3 squirts a day... and no patches??
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I reckon (total random stab in the dark) that you weren't really absorbing the patches at all. But you are absorbing the gel. See if you can ask to just use the gel at 2-3 squirts a day... and no patches??
Yes it seems I can’t have been absorbing and that’s why adding in the gel must have upped my levels in the last month. It’s depressing to not feel any better psychologically yet ….
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I think it can take up to 12 weeks for some changes, and the psychological ones can sometimes take the longest (joint pain can take a while to go too). So fingers crossed things get better.
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I think it can take up to 12 weeks for some changes, and the psychological ones can sometimes take the longest (joint pain can take a while to go too). So fingers crossed things get better.
Thanks joziel,
Had another meltdown yesterday morning and feeling horribly anxious again this morning but hoping it will pass off in the next few hours.
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I am also getting anxiety at the mo, with estrogen. Just feeling jittery and like I've had a lot of caffeine and the heart beating a bit harder and louder than usual.
I also wake up with it at 5am.
When I was about 21 I tried a combined contraceptive pill and it had the same effect on me. I just got the POP instead and was fine. Obviously that's not an option now so not sure what to do. I was hoping it would all settle down but I'm now over 3 months on HRT and whilst some things have settled a lot (heart palps have largely stopped) the jitters and the waking at night continues.
Which is all to say - perhaps you weren't absorbing your estrogen before, but you are now, and some of your anxiety is from that...
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I am also getting anxiety at the mo, with estrogen. Just feeling jittery and like I've had a lot of caffeine and the heart beating a bit harder and louder than usual.
I also wake up with it at 5am.
When I was about 21 I tried a combined contraceptive pill and it had the same effect on me. I just got the POP instead and was fine. Obviously that's not an option now so not sure what to do. I was hoping it would all settle down but I'm now over 3 months on HRT and whilst some things have settled a lot (heart palps have largely stopped) the jitters and the waking at night continues.
Which is all to say - perhaps you weren't absorbing your estrogen before, but you are now, and some of your anxiety is from that...
Hi joziel,
Do you find that anxiety wears off as the day goes on? I’m so sick of having the same groundhog anxiety issues. I’m better if I’m in work. Just had 4 days off and feel terrible though I can feel it easing off now. How does it effect your life?
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Yes, for sure - I don't have it 24/7. On a good day, I don't really have anxiety at all, just waking at a ridiculous time and then I'm usually able to doze again.
On a bad day, it does last until lunch time but then wears off...
I actually find that it helps to do a workout. I've no idea why, my feeling is that it kind of resets my heart and cardiovascular system if I tell it 'THIS is when you are supposed to be working hard, not when I'm resting'!! It doesn't stop it happening again but it helps me at the time and for hours afterwards.
It affects my life mainly through lack of sleep from the early waking. I find it hard to get sleepy before about 11pm so I can't compensate by going to bed earlier. And also from not being able to concentrate on anything because of this sense of unease or anxiety which isn't focussed on anything (ie there is no specific thing I am anxious about) - which is really unusual for me.
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Yes, for sure - I don't have it 24/7. On a good day, I don't really have anxiety at all, just waking at a ridiculous time and then I'm usually able to doze again.
On a bad day, it does last until lunch time but then wears off...
I actually find that it helps to do a workout. I've no idea why, my feeling is that it kind of resets my heart and cardiovascular system if I tell it 'THIS is when you are supposed to be working hard, not when I'm resting'!! It doesn't stop it happening again but it helps me at the time and for hours afterwards.
It affects my life mainly through lack of sleep from the early waking. I find it hard to get sleepy before about 11pm so I can't compensate by going to bed earlier. And also from not being able to concentrate on anything because of this sense of unease or anxiety which isn't focussed on anything (ie there is no specific thing I am anxious about) - which is really unusual for me.
Do you take anything to help with sleeping? I take 2 herbal tablets called sleepeeze which I think help. The exact same ingredients are in generic Boots and Superdrug ones so I swap and change depending on which is on offer. I find anxiety and the crying the most debilitating of all the meno symptoms. I pray every day that the Oestrogel will start to work it’s magic but so far it hasn’t. Doesn’t help that I’m basically separated but living with my husband and this has been going on for far too long which definitely doesn’t help my state of mind.
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I take magnesium bisglycinate around 8pm-ish. 'Twas another bad night last night. It's really hard to sleep when you feel like you've had loads of caffeine. (And I say that as someone that caffeine doesn't affect very much and can have an espresso and still sleep fine before all this HRT stuff!).
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I take magnesium bisglycinate around 8pm-ish. 'Twas another bad night last night. It's really hard to sleep when you feel like you've had loads of caffeine. (And I say that as someone that caffeine doesn't affect very much and can have an espresso and still sleep fine before all this HRT stuff!).
What a strange symptom to feel so wired. Maybe give the herbal tabs a go? It must be so debilitating having continuous bad nights. I slept for really well on Monday night then Tuesday night it was awful and I felt exhausted yesterday. Almost ill with the lack of sleep. I really hope it settles for you soon. Menopause is such a miserable time.
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Thanks, yeah - tis rubbish. It's not menopause, it's HRT. These are not my symptoms before HRT, they were created by starting HRT.
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Yep, I agree joziel.
It’s hrt our bodies yearn for it, but either the dosage, route, fillers, or who knows what else, means that some woman do not adjust to it.
Many many women give up on hrt within a few years. Whether this is because of the above or because of hrt being withheld at the outset by Gp’s, then women being told they can only stay on it for 5 years, who knows!
It’s truly outrageous that this is not recognised and acknowledged. The immense harm that is done not only to women but society at large surely needs more understanding and an complete change in direction and focus.
Big hugs to sofa surfers tonight x
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Flossie- sorry I’ve looking back at earlier posts and read all of yours.
I was housebound 3/4 years ago, so I know how it feels.
It feels like there’s no end to it and that life will never be the same. But have hope, it can change.
I used the time of my extreme anxiety to give me purpose. Almost embrace the energy of it to move me forward.
I don’t know if you’re in a similar situation but just wanted you to know, that if you are, there is light ahead. X
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Flossie- sorry I’ve looking back at earlier posts and read all of yours.
I was housebound 3/4 years ago, so I know how it feels.
It feels like there’s no end to it and that life will never be the same. But have hope, it can change.
I used the time of my extreme anxiety to give me purpose. Almost embrace the energy of it to move me forward.
I don’t know if you’re in a similar situation but just wanted you to know, that if you are, there is light ahead. X
Thank you Marchlove. That is very kind of you to share that with me. I am so pleased you managed to overcome that.
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For me, I feel like it's the estrogen itself. Because I had the same response to a combined pill (Microgynon) when I was 21. That wasn't even body identical estrogen, it was whatever the synthetic estrogen in most pills is.