Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: KarineT on May 12, 2022, 02:30:42 PM
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Hello,
I was watching the menopause documentary by Davina McCall and all the things that she says are correct. But I am not sure if supporting menopausal women in the workplace can become a legal obligation. I would say, most employers don't care if their emploees are sick, let alone if they are suffering from menopausal symptoms and therefore I don't know what support they can provide. Davina McCall has got good intentions with her campaign but is she realistic?
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No I don’t think she is realistic.
I think she is doing right in raising awareness, but on an every day practical level, I think many women will do continue to suffer, depending on their employer.
For example, I work in a tiny SEN school. Most staff are young and the Head is 40 something. Menopause isn’t even on the radar there !
I would get zero sympathy if i mentioned menopause and would be deemed incapable of doing my job I expect.
Suppose those who work for large organizations in large towns and cities might be treated differently re the menopause, I don’t know?
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I think that large organisations will be forced into having ‘menopause policies’ etc just as they have to have policies for everything else. However, much as I think the recent campaigns will help women to become more aware of HRT options and gain more confidence in asking for them, I think perversely, many organisations will be even more wary of hiring any women over 50 and age discrimination will become even more rife. Particularly in smaller organisations, just as they are often still put off employing g younger women as they think they will be perpetually on maternity leave!
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Exactly! And discrimination happens to women over the age of 50 but what about men? Do they also get discriminated against because of their age?
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She is totally realistic. Otherwise the Company wouldn't have produced two programmes to raise awareness.
It shouldn't be up to women to push for support in any aspects of Life, however, historically we have had to stand up for what we need.
If it is 'seen' that companies are being sexist, unless women can prove that men are being employed over women with the same qualifications, it will be difficult for them to become employed. That's something that Unions should be investigating?
1 cannot be sacked for peri-menopause symptoms. Nas - what makes you believe that?
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One lady on the program, a teacher, was sacked from her job though. That's what I mean when I say emplyers don't care. I will be 52 in October and I don't think I
would have an issue working for someone younger than me.
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I suspect that many women are 'let go'. However, the companies could find themselves facing a constructive dismissal case, but women are too tired to struggle with Court Cases etc., at a time that they require support.
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Yes and it"s andolutely awful.
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CLKD. I just think that small businesses etc in particular are not too bothered about menopause symptoms: it’s tough enough when just dealing with general sickness, let alone menopause.
Davina is a rich lady. She hasn’t the worry and anxiety of trying to make ends meet day in, day out. Worrying about pensions and working until 70!
She is good at raising awareness, but menopause is a tough issue to navigate for many many women, particularly post breast cancer.
It’s just not quite as black and white as portrayed on tv.
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I'm digressing slightly here. I was meant to say I would have an issue working for someone younger than me because they may be disrepectful towards older ladies. I definitely wouldn't want that.
Nas, you're right about Davina McCall. It's not as if she needs to make ends meet. Was she to lose her job as a presenter, she would probably be alright but the rest of us would almost certainly strugle.
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That’s my point Karine.
I respect her for raising the awareness 100% and enlightening women on the options and choices they have re Hrt.
BUT, will she be spending hours on the phone to a GP receptionist, trying to get an appointment? Arguing the toss re obtaining HRT? Scrimping and saving for a private specialist appointment because her own GP is so woefully ignorant or ill educated on the menopause?
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She won't because I think she goes privately. A lot of us cannot afford to fork out those extortionate fees that they charge in these private clinics. It's not so much the initial consultation but the follow ups & prescriptions that add up afterwards.
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KarineT I so agree with you re the huge amount of money going private costs. In desperation last year I went to a private menopause clinic. Telephone consultations only at that point due to Covid but that was £250 then any follow ups also over the telephone around £200 private prescriptions charges plus the cost of the HRT - I also had one face to face consultation (for which the consultant was an hour and half late) which was also £250 so I gave that up totally after that. To be fair it did get me a blood test and thus a diagnosis that my oestrogen levels were rock bottom but at a rather large price. I now have a wonderful GP who is happy to authorise both the prescriptions and a yearly blood test and check up. It is a nightmare for so many women though. I do think that Davina has done a good thing getting menopause talked about and out in the open and hopefully that will start to make a difference in the future.
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Great she is raising awareness generally but to be honest I don’t think it’s a company’s problems to deal with anyones health problems . If they can afford to , then give all employees private health care as that would be good enabling people to get back to work quicker . That all sounds rather cold and unfeeling
but companies have to make money to keep show on road and feel we all get too dependant on “ other”
to sort our problems . I have my own business and struggled with menopause ( sleeplessness, night sweats the lot for 2 years ) after hysterectomy and then prolapse but once I got hrt things got better . I know this doesn’t apply to everyone but now they know hrt isn’t devil incarnate and hopefully gps being better educated on it then possibly a lot of these issues will disappear
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Like most things in life, it's certainly not black and white.
Larger companies with dedicated HR could benefit from a menopause policy - it would certainly make them more attractive to work for. However, when I first hit perimenopause and asked HR for support I was told I had poor emotional intelligence and needed to work on myself to make it easier for others to work with me (eventually I left). Smaller companies tend to know their staff better and can be more compassionate, however, they can't necessarily afford to offer the support they'd like.
I think women are discriminated against in the workplace on many levels. If you're of child bearing age a male candidate will be preferrable, when you have children the concept of needing to take time off work to look after them when they are sick is often met with resistance (although on the flipside, I once advised our line manager that a male colleague was trying to get hold of him to advise that his daughter was off sick and he had to take the day off - the first thing he said was 'why isn't his wife looking after her'). Don't get me started on maternity / paternity rights. In Scandinavia it is so great to see young fathers meeting for coffee, not just mothers, whereas an American friend of mine was happy to go back to work within a week of giving birth as she didn't want her male colleagues to think she had preferential treatment. Women feeling they have to leave work due to the menopause (as I did) is just the next way we're discriminated against. Personally, I think it is important to have a diverse workforce, so if women are consistently under-represented at all life stages it's bad for business as they are losing those different insights.
Let's not forget that we all experience menopause differently and will have different needs. A simple request like being able to have a fan provided is going to be a lot easier for a firm to deal with than if they need to re-write policy around working hours or absences. I think the debate on home working that has developed since the pandemic will also have some over-laps with any menopause policy.
I hope things do change, however, it certainly won't be easy, and it's much bigger than just menopause. I think it's good that the TV programme has at least encouraged the debate. I also think it's important that women aren't pressured into taking HRT (unless they want to), just because it suits an employer more.
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If only menopause started when we were no longer in the workforce, it may be easier to deal with.
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I don’t think she’s realistic. Her whole campaign hasn’t necessarily come from a place of caring for the country’s women…it’s all about keeping her in the public eye. How can she have true empathy, she’ll never experience the struggle most women will have with this…useless GPs, waiting for months to get an appointment at the menopause clinic, poking our way in the dark at how to get optimal outcomes from our hrt. Indeed, by doing this hrt requests have shot up…with little to no regard from her or channel 4 before the release of the documentaries about what this might do to supply & demand. They might have consulted better with professionals around the impact of this. Many celebrities are jumping on that bandwagon now too…Lisa Snowdon, the Loose Women etc. I agree with the comments above that these women won’t have the struggles that us “regular” women will (fyi I think we’re all extraordinary not regular lol). I have a real bee in my bonnet about menopause in the media at the minute lol.
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kat36, I get where you're coming from, she will have a totally different experience to most of us (I've almost given up trying to proactively contact my GP when it's time for a review as it's just about impossible to get an appointment, but luckily the surgery will contact me instead before repeating my prescription). Heaven forbid I want to speak to her outside of this time - it can be a total lottery.
However, there have been issues around the supply of HRT for years now (they would often feature it on Women's hour on radio 4). I personally think that the best way to get this sorted is to make a BIG noise, that can't be ignored. Yes, it has exacerbated things in the short term, but I'm hopeful that it will make things better in the long term. I want things to change so that generations after me get taken seriously. At least with the media spotlight at the moment some things are hopefully starting to change (although I think we need more GPs / specialist nurses and better training / guidance / research, not necessarily 'tsars').
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Gosh, I’m a bit surprised at the personal attacks on a woman just because she has more money than some of us might. Assuming she’s just doing this for her career is really just mean. Completely unnecessary. Let’s not do this to other women, we all struggle, having money doesn’t automatically make your life trouble-free and Davina works very hard. She has done 2 programmes, this is not her main source of income. She, as has been noted, can go private so her work to raise awareness in the NHS and get better care is for all of us that don’t have her choices and options. Because of her I now get my HRT on the NHS, a massive help as I had to close my business because of this and am now unemployed. As far as workplace policies go, of course it will make a difference. Just like when policies were introduced for pregnancy and childcare. These things won’t help everyone but it’s alongside raising awareness and dispelling myths about HRT. Better treatment also means you’re less likely to need a workplace policy tor this but for those that don’t get on with HRT and suffer through it, it can at least give people clear evidence-backed reasons for your illness and that means a lot.
For those moaning about what she’s doing, what are you doing about it? I write to my MP, my GP, the NHS. I don’t have her platform but if I did I’d do the same and wouldn’t let the fact I had money get in the way of helping other women that don’t. Honestly, some people just like to pick at others efforts behind their screen while they do absolutely nothing to help.
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I do appreciate Davina McCall and others raising awareness and getting the conversations going and encouraging women to go to their gps. It does seem to be in the media much more often now which is great.
However, my only issue is they always seem to make out that HRT is the wonder cure for everything.
I’d rather they toned it down a bit to say that it’s worth a try to see IF it helps but as most of the ladies on here are aware, it’s a long road trying different combinations. Progesterone intolerance is a big issue along with not absorbing oestrogen. Testosterone isn’t widely available either unless you pay for private consultants.
I’ve been on HRT for 3 years and still haven’t cracked the “life changing” experience that the celebrities talk about which does point to the benefit of them having private healthcare.
Hopefully their campaigning will make more HRT options available to all along with a more sympathetic workplace.
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Totally agree Evie.
Davina is doing a grand job in raising awareness around the menopause, Hrt options and how symptoms can impact on daily life.
However, throw progesterone intolerance, bleeding, obtaining HRT itself and gauging the correct dose of hormones
( potential including testosterone ) it no longer appears to be black and white.
It’s all a start though and hopefully menopause will no longer become a ‘taboo’ subject in modern society.
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Hopefully as we keep the conversation going, the difficulty even in starting HRT will become a bigger part of that discussion because it’s super important too.
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Winterose, the thing is that if you have your own business, you can do what you like in most cases because it's yours and you're in control. Those who work for others haven't got that control and could end up in a terrible situation through no fault of their own.
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Not really. If you have your own business you have to work or you don’t get paid, and you can lose clients permanently if there isn’t someone to take over. Being self employed is difficult if you’re on your own as it revolves around you, you can lose everything if unable to work.
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One extremely good thing to come out of the program is that the Scottish Medicines Consortium will be forced to approve Utrogesten for general easy access NHS prescribing as the media attention around it is so high they will be completely unable to justify not approving. In my view, there should be a complete UK wide list of licensed approved HRT and any individual GP should be able to pick the products that are most suitable for their patients off the list instead of this faffing around looking for things on the approved local formulary and huge amounts of paperwork if they actually want to prescribe something not on the local list. In the wider scheme of things there is not a great deal of diffence in cost between all the HRT products and in terms of the whole NHS budget it’s tiny! I’m not on Utrogesten but I would be extremely hacked off if I had to go to private gynae /meno specialist to get it prescribed if it was the most appropriate for me .
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Yes. ypu can lose everything if you can't work. I've never said that it was easy to work for yourself but you still have more control than employees. Employees has no say & can lose their job if they can no longer perform. They, ultimately, also end up with nothing. And if they are over 50, it's even tougher to find another job because of discriminstion. If they have to take time off work because of the menopause, they will get nothing apart from maybe SSP which doesn't pay for the first 3 days and it's not that much thereafter. And they cannot be on SSP forever.
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Yes, I’m not saying employed people aren’t in positions where they can lose all their income. I’m saying self employed people do too. I’m not sure why you think there’s a huge difference. What do you think happens when a self employed person can’t work? They can not only lose income but any investment in their business if it then fails. Being self employed doesn’t protect you from loss of income at all.
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I have just watched the programme...I agree with everything everyone has put on here. I left my job in a big organisation in education...I just felt I didn't want to cope with it all anymore, I used to feel absolutely wiped out halfway through the week and ended up often coming down with a migraine. I adored my job and still can't believe I am not doing it any more...I am 56 and yes, I realise very lucky I could change careers and go part time. Yes, there is " a menopause policy" but to be fair it's just all fur coat and no knickers...nothing comes of it really. I know someone working in the NHS and sadly they have been disciplined...and it is a result of brain fog etc.
I would LOVE to go privately....I can't afford it. I have just had to change the make of my oestrogen as the NHS chemists near me can't get it. I have also...hopefully temporally, had to reduce the dose as my lining was 4.7 and I am awaiting the result of a hysteroscopy.
I wonder if I should have testosterone too....but the NHS doesn't prescribe that. I had to fight for HRT...one doctor prescribed me anti depressants and another talked to me about how I should re consider because her mum took it and got cancer. However, my life without it is not really worth living...for me it's mostly mental...the terrible sadness and flatness, the anxiety and the fatigue. As for libido...what's that? Certainly not with me much now.... :-\ I bet men wouldn't have to go through all this.....
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You can get testosterone on the nhs, ask for a referral to an NHS menopause clinic.
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Emm 225, It's a terrible think to have to leave one's job but I admire you as you plucked up the courage to do it. Brain fog is a terrible thing but it's very hard to function with anxiety and low mood on a regular basis. I also wonder what would happen if men had the same issues. As for women who hardly have any symptoms, would they be understanding towards those who struggle? Probably not.
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ATB, this is going to be slightly out of context but I know what happens when a self-employed person doesn't have any work. My partner is self-employed and he doesn't always have work.
As for employers, they have to run a business to make money but most of them are doing very well.
What I meant by being in control is that employers can do what they like when taking on people.
They can change a few things to suit their business needs and themselves. They can get rid of someone, even if they did nothing wrong. I am not talking about redundancy as it's an economical reason. Working for yourself is almost certainly hard but working for someone else is not necessarily easier.
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I didn’t say it was easier to be employed! I feel we are going round in circles. I simply responded when you said it’s easier if you’re self employed and going through menopause because you have choices. You don’t. If it’s just you or a small business, you have to work or lose your business and your income. I think maybe you said self employed earlier when you meant an employer has choices. I would disagree most employers are doing well. I think large corporations have more security and really successful large ones of course those employers can pick and choose who to employ and can discriminate, illegal but difficult to prove. A medium or small business employer isn’t as secure, and I think menopause policies for them would be hard to implement. The real solution IMO is better healthcare during peri & meno so that being so ill you can’t work is rare.
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Hello ladies.
I appreciate the work that Davina is doing on behalf of all us menopause sufferers. She is not the only one of course, Mariella Frostrup and Kirsty Wark also made programmes on the subject.
I think earning a living is a priority for most people whatever their profession. At the beginning of her documentary Davina said she was struggling to read an autocue and worried that she would have to give up presenting so she must have worried about keeping her job. In her first menopause documentary Louise Newson remarked that without HRT Davina wouldn't be able to exercise the way she does and her videos also provide an income.
It is true that those with more money and influence can afford private care but so can many other women so it is not as exclusive as it seems. The other great leveller is our shared biology, perhaps Davina will find that her HRT stops working and her symptoms start creeping back. Maybe she too will experience unexpected bleeding and be forced to change her HRT to something less effective? In Mariella's programme her specialist said that they still needed to resolve her anxiety problems.
Basically I think Davina is doing a good job of highlighting how debilitating the menopause can be and better quality care and treatment should be available to everyone who needs it. More power to her elbow I say lol.
Take care ladies.
K.
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Nicely said Kathleen :)
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Sorry for the confusion ATB. I did mean employers and not self-employed people because a self-employed person is not necessarily an employer. When I was initially replying to Winterose, I should have said that someone who's employed by someone else is not necessarily better off than a self-employed person. Where I work, I don't get paid if I'm off sick.