Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: ATB on May 09, 2022, 04:43:00 PM
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Ok
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I believe that Gerd can set off palpitations yes as it irritates the vagus nerve. Please correct me if I’m wrong on that someone! For me HRT stopped the palpitations completely and improved digestion a lot though it still goes wonky sometimes. Do you take omeprazole etc for the Gerd?
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What type of magnesium are you using?
I believe taurate is best for palpitations but you better check that on Google.
It might be an initial paradoxical reaction to the magnesium after being very deficient.
I reactive a bit oddly to magnesium when I first started using it but I’m now fine. I think it was my body suddenly waking up after years of omeprazole.
Oh by the way I believe you mentioned in another thread that your T4 is a tad high. Were you taking Utrogestan at the time of the test as progesterone increases T4. X
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Marchlove, yes I was taking Utrogestan when I did that test. My doctor did not say that it might impact the T4 result, so thank you! I’m taking another test tomorrow and I’m not taking Utrogestan so will be interesting to see what happens. I’m now hoping I didn’t lower my meds without needing to, although if that’s the case it should only be a few weeks of raising it to resolve it.
I’m taking magnesium glycinate, I watched some videos from a doctor on YouTube who I think initially advised taurate but apparently the one I’m taking is still good, although I started for anxiety and insomnia and when I took it last night it made me so sleepy I’d be surprised if the palpitations are connected. I’m still wondering if I continue with them, as I’m now not on Utrogestan it might be better to keep with them to see if it still happens and if not then it’s more likely the lowering of estrogen at the time of my cycle affecting me. It is very hard to figure out! Thank you so much for your wisdom, you’re so helpful here!
VanillaLover, I believe you’re right about GERD and palpitations as I was looking it up yesterday. It’s odd it hasn’t happened before I started HRT but it might be the fact I’ve had a lot of estrogen then lowered it recently too. No I don’t take anything for the GERD, I think that what they give us is to lower stomach acidity but the issue actually isn’t high acid it’s low stomach acidity causing this. So they don’t help.
Thank you both.
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Hi ATB, if you're on thyroid replacement I agree peri can be a very tricky time to work out what's going on, especially if your meds include T3 or NDT. I'm long postmeno now but like you, found palpitations were worse during the luteal phase. As Marchlove says, progesterone can increase thyroid levels for those of us with thyroid conditions (oestrogen replacement can have the opposite effect, you'll know I'm sure). There's a link to a small study here, but I'm not surprised your doctor seemed unaware of the association as it doesn't seem to be widely known:-
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23252963/
I also think your instinct that magnesium might be implicated in your palps could be right. Magnesium is one of the minerals involved in conversion of T4-T3, so may be rendering you over-treated. I used to take it daily pre-peri & found it very helpful in several ways, but had to stop altogether throughout those years as it seemed to rev my thyroid, adding to the sense of being hyper that also uncomfortably seems to come with the luteal phase. Even long postmeno I now find I can only tolerate a very small dose of magnesium & in fact use a kids' formulation as the lowest I could get & easier than blunting knives trying to saw through 100mg tabs!
I hope your next TFT will help you work out what's going on.
Wx
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Thank you Wrensong for such a helpful post. It really is good to hear from someone with a thyroid problem. I’m going to stop the magnesium for a month to see how I feel and if it affects my sleep or anxiety I can try a lower dose. I definitely don’t feel as well during the Utrogestan phase, but it is still hard to know which issue is causing the GERD & palps for sure. I had read that having low or insufficient estrogen affects thyroid function, but that it reduced your thyroid hormones. I assumed a higher thyroid result and need to lower meds was because my evorel was increasing my estrogen to healthy levels. Either way I think from years of doing this that I needed to lower my thyroid meds, which I did 2 months ago. I won’t lower again unless tomorrows test indicates I need to. I guess time will tell and that for me I will need to tweak things perhaps a few more times before I get it right. The anxiety and palpitations are my only big concerns now, other symptoms have gone. I have an ultrasound on my neck in 2 weeks to check a lump too so no doubt all of this is impacting my anxiety.
Thanks again!
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I think this stage of life can be so bewildering for thyroid patients, especially in peri when our hormones are so erratic, so my heart goes out to you. I think I saw somewhere that you're on NDT & it seems to me that those of us who need a T3 component to our replacement can find the menopause years especially challenging. Posts from those members who aren't well on thyroxine alone, show time & again the complexity of balancing HRT with thyroid meds & how much we feel we have to learn, to be able to advocate for ourselves & give us the best chance of optimising our health. Yet still half the time in peri it's pretty much best guess as to what's going on! But we do get through it & postmeno everything becomes more stable.
I don't have GERD luckily, but wonder whether you feel the muscle relaxant effect of progesterone could be contributing to your reflux? Magnesium too, now I think of it! Sorry if this has been covered before, just seemed worth mentioning.
I think you're wise to stop the magnesium for a while, you can always start again, as you say maybe at a lower dose if you find you feel worse without it.
Good that you have a scan coming up to check your neck. I had a partial thyroidectomy several decades ago, but had the remainder rescanned during peri as symptoms were so confusing it was impossible to tell what was due to menopause & what might be thyroid related, despite TFTs within range.
Please don't be alone with any worries, there's always someone to listen & help on here.
Wx :)
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Thanks again, you are so helpful and knowledgeable. It can be quite a lonely experience because nobody around me understands why this is so complicated for me. I can’t wait for post-menopause! Seriously I want this to be over, it started when I was 39! I’m 46! Enough!! Ha. Yes I had to have NDT apparently, I tried a few different things but always thought to try T4 only again one day but it took so long to get well and now with menopause I just can’t deal with trying yet another thyroid solution. Maybe one day. Discussing this with you I feel good about the plan, just concentrate on getting my HRT right, no other supplements or anything. I started magnesium before I started CBT with a lovely therapist. It’s helping so I feel ok about the anxiety and not having magnesium. Im actually starting swimming again to help me with breathing as that is important with anxiety and I stopped when I first got sick as my then doctor didn’t want me exposed to so much chlorine every day- I’m a distance swimmer. I feel like all this time I stopped something that would of helped me, I’ve swum all my life and find it super relaxing and good fitness.
Regarding estrogen and thyroid hormones Marchlove, I found this in an article:
On a positive note, topical estrogen therapy was not found to affect TBG levels and therefore may be the preferred therapy for women who need both estrogen and thyroid replacement.
So that’s good at least I’m on patches so the best option for me.
Thanks 🙏
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Absolutely, ATB, it can feel isolating in peri trying to navigate through sex hormone chaos on T3-T4 replacement whether NDT or synthetic, as there seem to be so few of us who aren't well on Thyroxine alone. It's an added biiiig complication we could really do without, but if we need T3 we need it & there's no getting around that. But I know of a handful of members who've been in this situation & I think coming here to compare notes at least helps lessen the sense of being alone with it & we sometimes learn of something we haven't tried that makes a difference.
I was like you, absolutely longing for postmenopause & it really does get easier then, when we're simply dealing with the consequences of hormone deficiency rather than on a constant rollercoaster of unpredictable hormonal peaks & troughs. You will get there & this really tricky, horrible part of your life will just be a distant memory.
I was on NDT for a while when peri started but couldn't get the dose right & symptoms just made the whole situation so confusing. On T4-T3 combination for a few years now & that works better for me.
I think the swimming is a great idea. Like you, I used to swim regularly & agree it's great for all round fitness & relaxation. I also found that doing controlled breathing exercises helped with palpitations & was especially useful during seemingly endless nights of intense sweats & insomnia. Regular meditation was helpful too, as it seems to reset the system to a calmer default state if we can manage to practise regularly.
Let us know how your TFT pans out if you feel like sharing. :hug:
Wx
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Thanks again, I really do appreciate your feedback. I’m not on social media so in no other groups or anything to get info like this from.
I haven’t had magnesium two nights now and I still fell asleep and anxiety didn’t seem to be an issue either, at the moment. I thought the anxiety I was having at night and waking with it was associated with high estrogen anyway so perhaps makes sense now I lowered my dose. I felt quite good with HRT generally until just recently with the palpitations and GERD so I feel like a little tweaking will get me back to that. I can exercise regularly now, not so tired, minor symptoms like itchy skin gone and I don’t suffer nighttime sweats anyway so that kind of thing didn’t trouble me. I did my thyroid test this morning so I’ll pop back here to update and in a month also to update on how the next Utrogestan phase goes. I don’t know if it’s being off Utrogestan or the apple cider vinegar before meals but my burping and bloating has settled too. The next month I think I’ll know more and figure this out. I have been on NDT 6 years or so, and was very happy on the dose I was on with perfect labs so for sure HRT is affecting things now.
Did you find it hard to switch from NDT to synthetics? It’s something I want to do but am nervous about.
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I don't do social media either but this forum is fab for exchanging info & support.
Good that HRT was helping, great that you haven't had night sweats & you have the energy for exercise.
To answer your question re transition from NDT to synthetics, I can't convert T4-T3 very well so my T3 is always below range, but had been much better prior to peri on a 12 month NHS trial of T4-T3. The doctor who took over after the trial didn't approve of T3 use & I was taken off it & back on T4 alone. I quickly felt really unwell again, so went to a private doctor who put me on Armour. We never found the right dose, possibly because the T3:T4 ratio is high compared with human thyroid hormone production. Then the doctor who'd prescribed the Armour sadly suddenly died, coinciding with my starting the chaos of peri & as the NHS didn't support the use of NDT or T3, I had to go back on Thyroxine alone. It was only postmenopause that I saw a new private doctor who put me straight back on synthetic T4-T3 & shortly afterwards started me on HRT. So I didn't go from NDT straight to T4-T3 combi treatment.
All I would say is if your thyroid symptoms are well controlled on NDT, you're sure you're not over or under-treated on it & you have the support of a good Endocrinologist, if you're understandably nervous of upsetting the apple cart I agree, now may not be the best time to change. One thing maybe to bear in mind though, you'll know that we tend to need less thyroid replacement as we age, so if you're aware of that possibility, given over-treatment on thyroid meds can be difficult to distinguish from some meno symptoms (night sweats, flushing, palpitations, anxiety, insomnia . . .) & some of these can also occur on the wrong dose of HRT, perhaps wise to check your thyroid status with a TFT if ever you're not sure what's going on, assuming private testing is within your means.
Hope you get your blood results soon.
Wx
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Thanks again.
Yes I’m reluctant to change right now but will bear in mind in the future when I’m settled on HRT, or even post meno. I’ve been on armour years with good results, I haven’t seen a specialist in a few years as I can’t afford it regularly, but I private test often and my antibodies have never been raised, but when diagnosed the other tests were bad and clearly hypothyroid. Last test I was feeling well and in a good place on every range. So I’ve done a Free T3 & free T4 test privately today. If it isn’t good then the only difference is HRT, so I’ll adjust. I’ve lowered it from 2 1/2 grains to 2 since March, started HRT last sept. I had a high T4 last test with a female hormone profile testing my sex hormones. If I have a high or low reading at any time, I adjust and then test every 3 months for a year after. I’m very careful about it so that’s why and because I don’t see a specialist yearly anymore, as I would like. I have been managing it ok myself but ideally I would see a private endo every year. My menopause specialist I see privately has an ok understanding of it and I can discuss it but it’s not ideal. My GP just doesn’t talk to me about it because they wouldn’t have put me on anything, my TSH wasn’t high enough at 4.5 but I was bedridden!
If I can get this burping and palpitations under control then it’s just my anxiety left and I feel I’m making progress there.
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What a difficult situation for you having no clinician in your corner for the thyroid. If your T4 was high when last tested you'll know that (as well as menopause) could account for the anxiety & palpitations & this is where it gets tricky for menopausal women on thyroid replacement. I hope your latest TFT helps you work out what's going on, but it's regrettable as you say, that you don't have the support of a good endocrinologist to see you through this confusing & difficult stage of life. Take care & I wish you well with it.
Wx
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Thought I would add another little update.
So, according to when I take Utrogestan, this would be day 9 of my cycle, and last 3 or 4 days the GERD almost gone, not really any palpitations, slight fluttering a little. My period comes a little early while taking Utrogestan, so according to that I’m day 12. I take Utrogestan every 2 weeks out of 4 though and stick to that regardless of my period. It is hard to know which phase of my cycle it is though, and whether I’m being affecting by lowering estrogen levels.
I am taking ACV with water before meals still, that does seem to help but I would be surprised if it’s that alone, and I have lowered my thyroid hormones again slightly in the last week too. So only time will tell, and if it happens again during Utrogestan then I know it’s related to that side of things and can discuss with my menopause doctor adjusting estrogen.
So today and last few days I’ve felt normal again and anxiety I haven’t really felt either. I need to try and feel like this all the time!
Still waiting on my thyroid test results.
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Thank you for the update ATB, it’s really useful for us who also have thyroid issues.
I admire the way you systematically look at each issue and slowly work through each problem you encounter, especially as you are doing this on your own.
Thank you also Wrensong for your input, much appreciated.
It will be interesting to hear you results ATB if you don’t mind sharing.
X
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You’re welcome and definitely I will share my results, I can see testing is in progress so I should get this today. I’m going to ask my husband to come up with a chart of some kind for me, where I can have a monthly calendar that tracks each hormone I’m taking, my cycle and my symptoms so I can see a pattern more clearly. I’m just taking notes and marking my calendar with my period. It would be much easier on some kind of spreadsheet or graph.
Also for those on testosterone, I started applying it early in the morning and it’s made a huge difference. I asked Newson health about best time of morning, did it matter etc and they had no advice. Which I find surprising. I’ve seen a few women say the earlier the better so they should really be able to pass on those kinds of tips and suggestions. Same with the syringe you get, I couldn’t get it to work after the first application initially and then I realised you needed to clean it by syringing water in and out of it after use so it’s super clean for next time.
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The reduction in symptoms sounds promising ATB :). I hope you manage to get everything working smoothly throughout your cycle. A spreadsheet sounds a great idea to help you track changes. I hope your TFT results are reassuring.
No probs Marchlove.
Wx :)
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Thyroid results are in, and I’m definitely not over medicated or in a hyper state.
My Free T4 is exactly where it needs to be and my Free T3 is a teeny bit lower than I like it to be. My TSH is pretty much the same.
So I won’t be lowering it any more. I will redo the test in about 10 weeks, but when I’m taking Utrogestan just to see what affect that might have, so I can assess if I need to alter it to avoid surging at that time.
I had lowered it a bit since the last test showing high thyroxine or free T4, I did lower again last week thinking it felt like I needed to but I’ll keep it on the dose I’ve been on a few months now.
So now that rules out thyroid as a possible cause of GERD & palpitations.
I’m left with magnesium as an outside chance, but most likely falling/lower estrogen at a certain time of month. I’m off magnesium but I am not sleeping as well so I will wait another few weeks and try adding it back. I’m restarting Utrogestan this Friday so I’ll soon see if I’ve adjusted to this dose of evorel or I need to add a bit for that phase of the month. It’ll be three months on the lower dose on 6 June. Next appointment is mid July.
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That's reassuring ATB. I'm glad you've ruled out one variable & that the TFT has confirmed what thyroid replacement dose is right for you at this stage.
I consistently found over several trials with different doses of oestrogen, that Utro raises my heart rate uncomfortably, markedly disrupts the rhythm & makes me way too hot, wired & sleepless. A few other women have reported similar on here, but the majority seem to find it sedating, so it seems to be a very individual thing. I think perhaps because as hypothyroid women on thyroid replacement our homeostasis is already somewhat compromised, the body struggles more to adjust to other biochemical changes.
The palps & anxiety could well be a response to fluctuating oestrogen, as you say. I do find even long postmenopause that my body responds with palpitations to changes of HRT dose, either up or down, but also with changes of thyroid meds. It's all a learning process but with experience gets a bit easier to trust instinct. Keeping a close eye on your thyroid status as you have been, testing whenever you're not sure how things stand, should safeguard against being inadvertently on the wrong NDT dose for long, as you continue through the menopausal transition while symptoms may become confusing again.
I think you're doing remarkably well with your process of elimination. I hope things continue to be manageable for you & that you remain well. Good luck with the thyroid scan too.
Wx
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Thanks so much Wrensong. It is confusing me this estrogen thing! My estrogen test result before I dropped it in mid March was quite high, 1770!! So I felt quite confident that lowering was the right thing to do, as over the years pre HRT it was consistently low at 110-150 and my symptoms indicated this too- the waking at night was awful and I gained weight too. So I feel like I can be confident that 75 is too high. I’m annoyed at not having magnesium as I was sleeping so well with it. If I take Utrogestan earlier as well, then I fall asleep early and have a lovely sleep- I was insomniac for years so it’s so nice! I’m hoping that I figure out it’s nothing to do with magnesium!
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Absolutely, it's confusing for us. Yes, that does sound a high oestradiol result, but it can vary so much in peri.
I so hear you on the insomnia. It's a very longstanding condition for me & still my most problematically resistant symptom. 150mg magnesium citrate helped me with sleep & more before peri, so it's gutting that any more than a tiny dose now worsens my sleep. I've tried different forms as some types are said to have a stimulating effect on some people, but can't get back to that blissful state where it used to feel like the missing bit of the jigsaw.
You could always try reintroducing magnesium if stopping has worsened your sleep, perhaps at a lower dose? But it will be probably be easier for you to evaluate Utrogestan's effect when you start that again without another variable in the equation.
Wx
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Hopefully it is nothing to do with magnesium ATB!
As you might know I moved my taking of progesterone to the morning a few weeks ago and am sleeping better for it. When I was on Utrogestan 100 and 200 at night my sleep was absolutely rubbish, had no sedating effect at all. Something to do with my gaba receptors not working correctly apparently.
Bizarrely I find I sleep better by taking my estrogen late evening. My theory is that as it supposedly lowers cortisol my sleep is improved. That along with the magnesium of course.
We’re all so different, I’m not suggesting that what seems to be working better for me will be right for others but just wanted to share my experience so far.
X
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That’s something to keep in mind. I’m getting to sleep well now including when on Utrogestan- it used to take me 1-2 hours to get to sleep. I’m now fixing off at 9.30pm! But without magnesium I’m waking really early and not sleeping as long or waking up as well. I was taking mag glycinate 500 with 90 elemental. It also helped anxiety. But there’s an outside chance it affected me to the extent I got palpitations, a new symptom, so yes watching this next few weeks on Utro. will be revealing I feel.
I’m on evorel and found it a big improvement for me over the gel. Taking both the testosterone and Utrogestan earlier improved things a lot. I wouldn’t know to try either if it wasn’t for this forum, the clinic never gave advice on time really.
Thank you both again! So lovely to have this support and wisdom from other women. You can’t replace this! Women are amazing when they get together!!
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Yes hopefully very revealing, if you can manage to stay off the magnesium when you start the Utro and the palpitations restart, it could be quite a revelation.
I’m very interested in the whole timing issue and diurnal rhythm of the whole of our endocrine system. I feel it’s very much a missing part of the puzzle.
Yes we’re amazing when we work together in this way!! X
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Thought I would update today as I’m on day 26 of my cycle, this is my last day of Utrogestan- cutting it down from taking 14 days as instructed, 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off, as I know you only need it for 12 days and I don’t feel as good on it. Anyway, so far I’m definitely feeling much better than this time last month, I’ve had no burping yet! No palpitations, flutters but I breathe through them and they pass in seconds. I’m not even as tired as I usually am. I take my Utrogestan much earlier than before, at around 6pm. I don’t take ACV before every meal but would do so if I get GERD with my period due in the next few days. The only differences are my thyroid med lowering from March may be having more of an effect this cycle, and I’m not taking magnesium. I’m sleeping ok but waking very early- 5.30am. My Evorel patch is the same, but it’s now been almost 3 months on the reduced patch, from 75 to 50. Depending on how my period week goes, as that was my worst week last few months, I may not need to tweak my estrogen at all. I’m even doing a road trip today that would normally trigger anxiety too much to do- when I go new places I panic about traffic and tunnels ( got stuck on the tube for hours once it’s been happening since then ).
So overall massive improvements throughout the Utrogestan phase. My period week will be interesting to observe as if it goes as well as the last few weeks then I would say finally, my HRT is right for me right now, and my thyroid meds definitely seem to be. Im falling asleep fine without magnesium but not sleeping as long. I’m still not as full of energy on Utrogestan, but can work outside in the garden all day no problem.
I’ll let you all know how my period week goes! Fingers crossed I may just have got this sorted!! Then all I have on my health to-so is this ultrasound on my neck lump coming up in 2 weeks. 7 years is all it took to feel better ;D Hope everyone else is feeling as good as I am!
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Pleased for you ATB. I hope you continue to feel well. :)
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Wow, am so pleased for you ATB! Let us know how it goes xx
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Hello! Update today is that I got through my period without any real palpitations, just a few flutters and at night slight pounding but it didn’t really bother me. No GERD! I can’t believe it! I’ve had this burping digestion problem for a few years and it got much worse and this is the first month I’ve not had it. I hope it stays that way!
Anxiety wise, it’s so much better it’s hard to believe. I just had my ultrasound today, definitely got anxiety and almost started panicking going in but I put music on and started dancing around near a window and it passed! Once I was in the room, although my worst nightmare is a small room with no windows and that’s what I was in, I was completely fine. Last hospital appointment was March and this was even better than that visit. I feel like I’m more accepting of it now, and don’t fight it so much so despite still having those horrid feelings it seems to pass quite quickly. Travel used to be a nightmare but it doesn’t bother me at all now.
Now all I need is for the ultrasound report to be clear with nothing serious and I feel like I’m sorted. I did wonder if it’s something because the radiologist didn’t say anything. Do they usually tell you then and there if it’s nothing to worry about?
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That’s all sounding very positive ATB, well done!
Most don’t tell you anything, some will if you ask. It’s all a bit hit and miss, so it’s hard to read anything into it really.
Do you know when you will get results? xx
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Thanks Marchlove. They didn’t say when I would get results, I wouldn’t expect it too quickly atm and I’m trying not to Google anything till I do! Thanks again
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Is your thyroid due to Peri/HRT ATB?
I take omeprazole 60mg a day for GERD. Its horrible.
I do get heart palpitations & i noticed its aways when I'm on my period.
Glad to hear you got through this period with no palpitations. They cam be quite scary even if you know, its not related to anything in particular.
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Hi Sheri, no I am hypothyroid so although it affects other hormones and they affect that too, it was very very low before I was put on meds about 7 years ago. I’ve only been on HRT 9 months.
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Oh geez. This is going to send my health anxiety into overdrive. My surgery called and made an appointment for my doctor to call me next Wednesday to discuss the results. I assume that’s bad because surely they’d just say if everything was fine? Now I have to wait 5 days! :-\