Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Louise2010 on March 28, 2022, 08:35:17 AM
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For the last 2 weeks or more (I’ve lost count) I’ve been waking at 3.30 or 4 in the morning completely wide awake. My heart rate is up like I’ve been exercising. Sometimes I can lie there and doze but mostly my mind won’t switch off and I literally feel like I’m losing it. The lack of sleep now means I have to shut down my business as I’m a wreck during the day.
I exercise regularly and get outside everyday. I have a normal bmi and healthy diet. I go to bed at a reasonable time, I wind down with no screens and I set an alarm and get up at the same time every day. All the rules of good sleep hygiene.
I’ve read that surgical menopause can really mess with sleep more than natural menopause and that for some oestrogen only hrt can make this worse.
Has anyone taken progesterone after a hysterectomy/ partial hysterectomy to balance things?
Does anyone use a progesterone cream to help with sleep?
I feel like I’m literally losing my mind and it’s very frightening. 🥲
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My insomnia and anxiety was caused by oestrogen deficiency, gone after 3 months on HRT. Symptoms were fairly similar, I could get to sleep OK but woke at 2-3am every morning and couldn't get back to sleep. As you say you can't function in the day when you can't sleep. Utro does help some people sleep, it doesn't for me but it does make me dopey in the day. Normal meno not hysterectomy.
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Hi Sheila thanks for replying & the info. 🙂I’m on a high dose of oestrogen and other symptoms are under control. I know there is a link between adrenals and progesterone. However progesterone is rarely /never prescribed (or at least that’s what I’ve heard) after hysterectomy because it’s “not needed”. I’ve read articles that show in some women it can help with anxiety and nighttime waking/ poor sleep quality.
I feel so physically and mentally ill through just mere sleep deprivation this that I feel like I can’t go on anymore.
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Have you had your levels tested? We're your ovaries removed? Testing is more useful if you're not producing your own. Symptoms of too much oestrogen can be very similar to those of too little. What dose are you on and for how long?
Might be worth trying a search as there have been threads on this before. It seems that most women don't need it to feel good, many (including me) are worse on it but there are a few who do seem to benefit. As you say getting it prescribed may be problematic.
There are threads too with advice on other things you can do to aid sleep.
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My ovaries were left. My oestrogen levels were around 350. I’m on 2 pumps gel in morning 2 at night.
Prior to surgery I was on 1 in morning 1 at night with testogel in morning and utrogestan 10 days a month. Hated the 10 days but I slept like a log. Hysterectomy was for huge fibroids which were a pain but right now I’d take them back just to feel sane and not suicidal.🥲
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If your ovaries were left why did they double your gel? Did/do you have any other uncontrolled meno symptoms? Before the op were you OK on the oestrogen phase or is it a problem that pre dates the op? How long have you been on the higher dose (assume you know you should give it 3 months)? If it's recent perhaps you might be better on 3 for now to give your body time to adjust.
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After my op I stuck to 1 pump am 1 pump pm but I started having night sweats, muscle and bone aches, low mood, fatigue, anxiety - the symptoms I had before I started hrt 5 years ago.
Back then the oestrogel sorted most of them out very quickly.
So I guess that was the reasoning behind upping the dose. All other symptoms disappeared except waking up and inability to sleep. But I’d say I’m now very depressed from lack of sleep.
I’ve been on higher dose for nearly a month. I did try 3 but still had night sweats. I could try again to see if it helps.
Prior to my op I had no menopause symptoms.
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I’m also 52 so I doubt my ovaries will be doing anything?
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Hi Louise, I am in almost same situation as you, I had a total hysterectomy almost 5 years ago, but I retained my ovaries, within weeks of having my hysterectomy I started suffering awful insomnia, I had the problem that I just couldn't sleep wide awake all night till 6am then up at 8, it made me very unwell, never had a problem with sleep until the hysterectomy, 7 months post op my gp did a blood test that said I was menopausal I was 43 at that time, put me on estrogel, Over the last almost 5 years nothing worked and I tryed everything including changing to patches then back to gel up down the doses with no relief, don't know if you go on the hystersisters website it's very good, in the USA its common for women to use progesterone after a hysterectomy with or without ovaries I decided on there advice to buy otc progesterone, I did buy it from the USA, and honestly have to say for me it's helped with insomnia and anxiety, it's not the same as the prescription progesterone, I can now fall asleep by midnight and stay asleep for at least 5 hours which is a huge improvement for me, it may be worth you trying, my gp would not give me progesterone as he bluntly said I don't need it, I to had hysterectomy for huge fibriods I also would take them back if I'd of known how the hysterectomy was going to mess with my mind and body, I also found on higher doses of estrogen the insomnia got worse so did the hot sweats, I only wish now I'd tryed the otc progesterone sooner, not an instant cure but definitely helps. X
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Sorry I see you do still have your ovaries, so I am in same situation as you, I thought I read it that you didn't have ovaries sorry just thought I'd acknowledge I read it wrong x
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Sorry I see you do still have your ovaries, so I am in same situation as you, I thought I read it that you didn't have ovaries sorry just thought I'd acknowledge I read it wrong x
No worries atall I do this a lot 🙂
Thank you for your reply. I’m so sorry you’ve been suffering like that too. I completely get it and it’s literally torture not having enough sleep.
So pleased you’ve managed to at least be getting some sleep now. It’s really difficult to find information on this as like you say progesterone is not prescribed after hysterectomy. But surely if progesterone had uses in your body before alongside oestrogen then it’s needed to balance your hormones?!
From what I can tell from researching it is it does a bit more than just thicken the lining of the womb and keep pregnancy viable.
Which cream do you use ? Was it really pricey to get it from the US?
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Hi there, this is something I am going to ask about next Monday when I have a follow up at NH. Just a thought, have you tried taking the gel all in one go in the morning? For some it can be too stimulating to take it in the evening. For me I seem to be better taking it all in the morning. Having said that my circumstances are a bit different as I take 15 mg of Mirtazapine at night time which is really good for sleep or so I understand. I would like to come off but not at the expense of sleep!
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Hi Gnatty yes I tried that and ended up with the night sweats returning. I’m leaning towards it being an adrenals/cortisol issue because of the way my heart pounds like I’m exercising and I’m instantly jolted awake. Which makes me wonder if progesterone despite its horrible other effects is the missing link.
I’ve read a thread on here about sleep and menopause. I think taking mirtazapine is a good move if it helps you to sleep.
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Hi Louise, I agree that progesterone does alot more than just protect the womb, I think hrt after hysterectomy is outdated in the UK, its much better in the USA, I currently use imagine dermatology Pro relief 2000mg bio-identical progesterone USP cream which gives approximately 20mg with each dose, its a pump style bottle, I use one pump a day, but I started of only using a small amount to see if I could tolerate it, it cost me around £22 for a bottle which includes shipping fees from the states, one bottle lasts ages, I've now found biovea UK which sell it so I will order from there next time, I was told to make sure it's USP progesterone as the ones without it are just skin care products and won't do anything, if you decide to try it make sure you read the instructions well and read reviews if there are any, I ordered the one I use now of amazon USA, not amazon UK as its not licenced here, its amazing how they can just buy it from a chemist or health shop over there, we are so behind times here in the UK, its worth a try it definitely helped me, I hope you manage to get some much needed sleep. X
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Thanks Amazinggrace ❤️
After having a complete melt down today my husband phoned the gp and she has got me to self refer for CBT and wants me to start Mirtaprizone (not sure of spelling can hardly see I’m blooming delirious).
Have to phase out the Fluoxetine. As I’m at my wits end and my very patient and wonderful husband is flagging bless him I really need to give this a go. Will update if it helps others to know how I get on.
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I’m also 52 so I doubt my ovaries will be doing anything?
Hi Louise, your ovaries are probably still functioning, albeit in a very erratic way, which is precisely the root of your symptoms, caused by peaks and throughs in oestrogen levels. Your progesterone levels on the other hand are dropping steadily. You probably need a very high dose of oestrogen to try to override your cycle or progesterone to counteract the oestrogen peaks, which is quite tricky because we don't know when they're happening, it's trial and error, I'm afraid.
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I really hope the mirtazapine works for you, it was a real life saver for me after my op. It's so good for sleep xx
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Hi Louise, sorry to hear things have got to melt down point, I've been there, I spoke to soon as I had a terrible night last night wide awake till 5am then only got 3 hours broken sleep, it does make you feel totally insane being sleep deprived, is the new med gp gave you a anti depressant or sleeping aid? , good luck with it I really hope it works for you, and will be really interested to see if it works for you, I did the self referral not for sleep but for anxiety a few years ago I had cbt it is really helpful good luck with that to it will definitely benefit you, take care and hopefully hear a update from you with positive results x
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Hi Uptick
Thank you for that info that would make sense. I’ve heard that sometimes ovaries can just poop out after being left due to poor blood flow/scar tissue but it’s not unreasonable to think they could be adding in fits and starts now and again.
The progesterone dropping off makes massive sense too. I know that oestrogen AND progesterone play a part in the pineal relationship with melatonin production. Melatonin gets you to sleep and drops off in the morning when cortisol takes over to get you up. I can go off ok it’s the staying asleep part I’m not good at 🤣
I know there’s loads of concerns over using progesterone when you don’t have a womb but again I wonder whether like Amazing grace said we are quite behind with the idea of using it in small amounts with women who’ve had a surgical menopause or natural and just can’t sleep ?🤔
Be interested to know what info you find at LN clinic Gnatty.
quote author=Uptick link=topic=61282.msg854288#msg854288 date=1648566301]
I’m also 52 so I doubt my ovaries will be doing anything?
Hi Louise, your ovaries are probably still functioning, albeit in a very erratic way, which is precisely the root of your symptoms, caused by peaks and throughs in oestrogen levels. Your progesterone levels on the other hand are dropping steadily. You probably need a very high dose of oestrogen to try to override your cycle or progesterone to counteract the oestrogen peaks, which is quite tricky because we don't know when they're happening, it's trial and error, I'm afraid.
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I really hope the mirtazapine works for you, it was a real life saver for me after my op. It's so good for sleep xx
Thanks Gnatty. I’m hoping it does. I’ve tried a few things and the disappointment of waking up yet again wide awake is so demoralising so sadly I’m a bit pessimistic. Really hope I’m proved wrong.
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Hi Louise, sorry to hear things have got to melt down point, I've been there, I spoke to soon as I had a terrible night last night wide awake till 5am then only got 3 hours broken sleep, it does make you feel totally insane being sleep deprived, is the new med gp gave you a anti depressant or sleeping aid? , good luck with it I really hope it works for you, and will be really interested to see if it works for you, I did the self referral not for sleep but for anxiety a few years ago I had cbt it is really helpful good luck with that to it will definitely benefit you, take care and hopefully hear a update from you with positive results x
Oh no I’m sorry to hear this Amazing grace I hope I’ve not jinxed you 😫 I really hope you can get a better night tonight.
The new med is an antidepressant for anxiety and depression. It works on neurotransmitters noradrenaline and serotonin. My old AD was just working on serotonin and I took it in the morning. This new one mirtazapine is taken at night and makes you drowsy apparently. The doctor said I may still wake up to begin with but it will help me to perhaps get better quality sleep in the time I do. Right now I’d take never having a lie in again if I could just sleep till 6am! But that may be a bridge too far 🤣 will let you know
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Just to say I really feel for you! I’m suffering too with terrible sleep last few nights. I’m going to try to have a nap before work as I don’t feel very safe to drive, I’ve had such a rubbish night. Luckily there is a train option for me.
I am also transitioning from SSRI to SNRI to try to help the flushes sweats etc and improve mood swings. I am now off the SSRI and start the other Sunday. It’s quite scary isn’t it. I’ve been on the SSRI for 15 years!
I’ve also just finished 4 months of CBT which has been very helpful.
I hope you see some improvement soon.
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I definitely have the adrenaline rush/cortisol surge thing you describe too. I’ve had that at night for ages to start with and now it’s kind of morphed into adrenaline rush plus horrible night sweats as time has gone on.
Anyway you have my sympathies!
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Hi there
I was having really bad morning adrenaline rushes which have completely stopped since I started taking magnesium glycinate at night. It took a while (I guess for it to build up in my system) but I've really noticed a difference. I also take a melatonin supplement (bought online) which is also helping me sleep. You can buy melatonin patches too. Not licenced in the UK but it seems you can buy them in most other countries (and online).
Hope you find something that helps.
xxxxx
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I’m so sorry to hear that Vanillalover it’s really horrible and frustrating. I hope it calms down and you’re able to sleep tonight. I’m not driving at the mo either. What AD are you changing to?
So I took the Mirtazapine last night and don’t actually remember falling asleep. I very vaguely remember waking up but it’s really hazy so that is an improvement. Then I woke in a bit of a sweat but it was 6.50am. I feel slightly drowsy, woolly headed like I could go back to sleep this morning and still worn out but have to say I feel better than yesterday because I feel very calm if not a bit sloth-like. 🦥
But beggars can’t be choosers so I’m not going to moan too much about that!
I may take it a bit earlier tonight. Gnatty when do you take yours?
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Hi there
I was having really bad morning adrenaline rushes which have completely stopped since I started taking magnesium glycinate at night. It took a while (I guess for it to build up in my system) but I've really noticed a difference. I also take a melatonin supplement (bought online) which is also helping me sleep. You can buy melatonin patches too. Not licenced in the UK but it seems you can buy them in most other countries (and online).
Hope you find something that helps.
Thank you JoannFran that’s really useful info I’m going to do a bit of scouting about for these. Which brands do you use?
xxxxx
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Louise thank you. Often I think I just wake up while it’s light/dawn sort of time so I am getting decent sleep in somewhere. And then sometimes like last night I seem to be tossing and turning sweating cold you name it all bloody night! And feel wrecked the next day!
Changing from fluoxetine to venlafaxine. I work in a school so break up for Easter next week so if I have any side effects from the new antiD I can suffer in peace at home while my own kids are at their school! The dr did say that venlafaxine is better tolerated, fewer side effects to begin with - than fluoxetine so fingers crossed
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Hi Louise, don't worry about feeling drowsy first thing. It's like any new medication, your body takes time to get used to it. As you say it's such a relief just to sleep. I like to go to bed quite early so at first I was taking it about 9.30. Now I have more energy it's more like 10, 10.15. What you can do, say you need to be alert at a certain time in the morning is take it 45 minutes before you go to bed.
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Keeping everything crossed for you Vanillalover and hoping you enjoy a well deserved Easter break.🐣
Thank you Gnatty yes you’re right it is a god send to hopefully get out of that waking cycle- fingers crossed it continues 🤞🏻