Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Gilla999 on January 20, 2022, 06:55:36 AM
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Hello lovely ladies
For the last 9 months I've taken 2 sprays Lenzetto and then reduced to 1.66 (by taping the dispenser) and was fine on this. Then in November I got prescribed Metformin and unbeknown to me this reduces your Estrogen level. I felt 'off' for the whole of December and around Christmas all my original symptoms started up again and I have not been able to get them under control since. My blood test 10 days ago showed my Estrogen had plummeted from 1,846 to 350 (both taken on day 21) in the space of 3 months which is a huge crash and much too low for me (I need my E to be higher than the top of the range to be non symptomatic).
I stopped the Metformin cold turkey and increased my Lenzetto to 4 sprays a week ago, but I am still terribly symptomatic with 3am insomnia and night sweats. I'm waiting for this week's blood test results back which I should receive today, but if I'm still having night sweats I know that I'm still not high enough. I'd love to know how much Lenzetto anyone takes - does anyone here take more than 4 sprays and if so how logistically do you do it - do you spread out across both inner arms? Is there anyone that tops up their Lenzetto with anything else?
I started a new, high pressured job on Jan 3rd and have already had to take a week off sick from having 17 days in a row of 3 hours sleep a night or less :'( After being relatively well for so long since starting HRT it has been such a knock back and the longer it goes on for the harder I'm finding it to cope mentally as well as physically.
At some point I would assume that coming off the Metformin will increase my E levels back up (assuming it WAS the Metformin and my own E didn't nose dive in the background which is also a possibility) but I can't continue like I am on zero sleep and wait for that to happen, I need to get my E levels up as quickly as possible to what they were previously.
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Hiya Gilla,
Firstly sending loads of hugs and support.
You’ve a lot going on, insomnia, sweats, new job pressure and taking time off pressure, please be kind to you.
I don’t use Lenzetto but in December I changed delivery method, thought it wasn’t working, added more and ended up doubling my dose to try and balance. I was under a lot of work pressure and I increased product too quickly, it was a DISASTER. The symptoms were exactly the same as low E.
Your situation sounds like mine, do you think the increase was too fast? If so, I can write what I did to stabilise?
Hope the tests bring good results.
V.xx☀️
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Thanks for the virtual hugs, much appreciated ;D
Yes of course you could be right - in my previous experiences doing anything that is "against" what my own hormones would naturally do at a point in time (for example drop just before my period) can also cause me to be symptomatic, or as you say increasing too fast. It's so frustrating feeling like you're shooting in the dark all the time, though I should hopefully have a better idea once my blood test results come back today.
Even if they do come back as still low it's a good warning though - by nature I want things to happen immediately, especially when you're feeling so rough and need to be all "jazz hands" and great for work but you're right I could end up being worse off if I rush it (especially if it IS the Metformin as taking it away will inevitably raise my E levels anyway... at some point).
I would love to hear what you did to stabilise, it could be very helpful. Thanks as always Victoria xx
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I totally understand needing to be well enough to work/keep life ticking over. I can’t function safely with insomnia as it’s a huge red flag for anxiety so waiting 3 months for stability is not an option for me. Thankfully my GP knows my work situ and supports me.
Beginning of December I changed from 4 pumps of gel to a 100 patch, felt grim for two weeks so added gel on top as thought I wasn’t absorbing. At an additional 4 pumps, now double dose, the penny dropped: I was on FAR too much and very low/tired.
Late December, removed patch and used 2 gel pumps for 5 days, felt great days 1 to 4. Day 5 after no sleep, peeing every hour through night, anxiety and sweats starting, joint aches etc so increased to 3 pumps. Managed a few days before increasing to 4 pumps. I think I’m on day 9 of basically my usual dose of 4 gel pumps and everyday has been good. I didn’t change progesterone or T routine through the disaster.
I did hugely increase oranges, kiwi and pineapple as Vit C speeds up my metabolism. Also I noticed I’d put weight on (after a very sensible Xmas too!) and I’m sure it was due to the excess of E: my jeans felt tighter in December, I’m now 5lbs lighter!
I hope something has helped and that you feel back to normal soon. I still haven’t dared to do tests!
Xx
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This is super helpful, thank you V! I find this such a relatable experience, where you try to make adjustments in the dark and end up making things worse. As soon as my sleep goes (specifically 1/2/3am insomnia) I know that my dose isn't high enough and then the night sweats arrive and confirm it. I can totally relate to the weight thing too - too high estrogen definitely causes weight gain. But I feel/suspect (after much experience and angst and research) that my particular issue is that my body has become so used to a "very high estrogen" level (both from HRT but also that I experienced for 3 years at the start of my Peri) that it's become accustomed to it and complains bitterly with insomnia and night sweats any time I try to reduce it even to a normal level. There is some understanding and studies around the phenomena - mainly connected to women who have had estrogen implants - but not very much and no idea where it really leaves me. But ultimately right now it's more important for me to be sleeping well and normal than deal with the issue of weight gain, even if that means my Estrogen level is too high on paper. I just need to be well!
Hopefully my blood test results arrive soon..............
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Hello Gill
I just wanted to send well wishes and hugs, I hope you feel better soon. :)
Victoria your post was great, thanks for sharing.
Angela x
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Thank you Angela, massively appreciate that.
Just had my blood test results back and my levels are still too low... 780, which I know probably sounds high to some other people but I need to be right at the top of the range (which is 1,251) in order to not be symptomatic.
Hard to know what to do really - logic would say that if the cause has been the Metformin (which is surely the only thing that account for such a drastic drop?) stopping it cold turkey last Sunday would start to take effect at some point and it should increase again. But not sure how long I can wait it out for :-\ For the last few days I've been taking Trazadone (prescribed) at 2am so I can at least get back to sleep a little bit, but the longer I take that for I won't be able to just stop it outright, and the last thing I really want at the moment is to be hooked onto something else!
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Your level requirement does seem extremely high, but, I'm not au fait with what's involved. Sorry. Maybe Hurdity or someone will be along! 🤞
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After much research and trial and error, I have a pretty good grasp on why I need such a high estrogen level. Between aged 38-41 during early Peri my Estrogen levels soared during the luteal phase of my cycle. I was experiencing EXTREMELY painful and swollen boobs every month that led me to having blood tests done that confirmed my Estrogen levels were 5* the top of the range during that part of my cycle (this is naturally, way before HRT). No one told me it could be connected to Peri and I had no idea. After 3 years of that aged 41 in 2020 my Estrogen naturally began its slow climb back down as part of Peri, and it was that climb down - the movement from "very high" to "low end of normal" that caused me to be extremely symptomatic, so much so that I had no quality of life from relentless night sweats and insomnia. It was only when I was able to raise my E level back to what it was during those 3 years of early Peri (via starting on HRT) that I became symptom free.
It is the reason why I have needed HRT at 42 despite still ovulating regularly.
I have no idea if I am unique in the world with it - I surely can't be! - but all I know is that my body got used to the prolonged exposure to very high estrogen levels that happened naturally for me, and now I cannot get out of that. It is a phenomena known when it comes to Estrogen implants (Dr Currie also confirmed this to me) but either isn't very common or isn't widely understood outside of that.
It has made me feel quite alone on this journey as none of my peers have gone through the hell I've been through as early as this! I like to tell the story in hope that one day someone else might land on it and it make sense to them, as it took me about 12 months to even understand what was happening myself
x
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Sounds awful. So sorry. Good there is support for you here both through the forum and Dr. Currie. 👍
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Hi G,
The blood test reading is significantly higher than the one 10 days ago; it’s more than doubled! If the tests are reliable, the E decline is because of the Metformin and today’s blood results were drawn 48 hours ago you’re on track to reach 1200 plus VERY soon, within 24 hours as you were still taking the Metformin for three of the 10 days.
I know it’s really, really hard when you’re stressed and exhausted but can you hold off increasing the spray to let your body catch up? Can you give all responsibility to partner/friend/family/anybody so that you can get sleep with no disturbances? The Trazdone(sp?) is prescribed by your GP, taking it for one more night to get rest after extreme sleep deprivation is only going to help you, I’d take it.
The sheer exhaustion could be stopping your body from responding because it needs rest.
Please put you first. V.xx
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:bighug:
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Thank you ladies for your lovely support - I know I've said it before but I honestly don't know where I would have been without this forum! CLKD thank you for the virtual hug ;D ;D
V you're 100% right - I made the decision today just to stick at where I am with the HRT and try to survive the next couple of weeks of insomnia and sweats until it hopefully improves naturally when the Metformin gets out of my system. I would assume I'll have to reduce the HRT anyway when the Merformin effect has gone and my own E rises, so no point in raising my dose even higher right now.
Thank you everyone for your feedback, it really has helped x
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Morning Gilla,
How are you feeling and did you get sleep?xx
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Hi Gilla999, sorry that you are suffering too, it’s sounds like we are on the same rollercoaster.
I was up to 8 sprays of Lenzetto along with Estradot patch and 3 x Sandrena with no change in symptoms apart from my own ups and also downs. I’ve been doing this for 3 years now. Clearly I don’t absorb on that much and it made no difference. Bloods as your probably remember have been low of 457 to highs of over 5000 pmol. My ovaries are still now chucking our massive spikes then horrific drops, I’m up and down continuously.
Lenzetto was thought at first to be about the equivalent of 1 1/2 -2 pumps of gel but I queried it a long time ago but again it depends how well we absorb it. Now it seems it is roughly 1/2 to 1 pump of gel. The information I received from the manufacturers show that in studies it was quite weak. I would say that your blood results could be mostly your own Estrogen rather than the spray, you may only get 100 pmol from 3 sprays, again it depends how long after the sprays you had the bloods done.
It’s hard to know what you are getting from HRT when your own hormones change by the minute. Xx
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Hello Floo! Nice to hear from you. Yes I noticed that even Louise Newsom has changed her data sheet to show that Lenzetto isn't as strong as previously thought, and it made me think of you and what you'd been saying all along. I think I must absorb much more product than you, because pre starting HRT my Estrogen was down to 245 pmol in the luteal phase (horrendously symptomatic) but after 6 months on 2-2.5 sprays Lenzetto it was up to 1,846 at the same day in my cycle! So I really do think it might depend on how well you absorb things... but then as you say, your own hormones aren't exactly linear underneath so who really knows!
V - thank you so much for checking in, I have felt definitely a little better today - managed to only take 1/4 of a sleeping pill last night at 4am so didn't feel as much of a zombie. Just trying to gett through each day at work and hope my own E starts to raise again in the background soon after stopping the Metformin (I'll need to lower my Lenzetto again at that point!). What a drama - I hope in the future someone sees this post about the effect of Metformin on your Estrogen levels and is spared what I've gone through!
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Criky Girls :o ......... do U keep a diary, without 1 I wouldn't know where I was!
We have a his/hers calendar, if it ain't on it, we ain't doing it ::)
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I will be glad when I’m not writing my symptoms down every day, I guess once we are on the right HRT. 🤞