Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: EllaAurora on October 13, 2021, 08:11:45 AM
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Hello ladies,
I'm experiencing another bump on the road and wondering if anyone can relate. I've been sloooowly getting better during the past weeks, as I've gradually increased Estrogel dose (currently ca 2.7 pumps) and started Utrogestan higher dose continuously.
During the days I'm starting to feel quite OK'ish, not great and not fully my old self, but a lot better than before. I've also had reasonably good sleep, but the past few nights have again been a struggle. ::) I'm waking up several times, can feel my heart beating, sleep is very light -its almost like being half awake even when sleeping - and I've also got a few hot flushes/sweats -which I'm sure is one reason why I'm waking up.
I know the night sweats and waking up are classical meno symptoms, but I don't understand why I'm getting these now, as I'm otherwise better?! I can't figure out if this is a sign that my oestrogen is still too low, or could it be due to the fact that I'm applying Estrogel in the evening -can that cause the insomnia and put body to an alert mode? I remember reading from somewhere that also high oestrogen could cause hot sweats but I cant believe that would be the case for me, as I'm still on a relatively low dose and don't feel at all high oestrogen otherwise.
Can anyone relate? Any thoughts how to move from here?
Thanks so much again & hope you all feel well the morning. xxx
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There is a hormone, 'cortisol', which is responsible for waking us. You may also be "Am I sleeping OK" therefore half waking up. I do that sometimes ::)
Try to relax if you wake. I used to have the radio by the bed with music on. Most people drift in and out without being aware.
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There is a hormone, 'cortisol', which is responsible for waking us. You may also be "Am I sleeping OK" therefore half waking up. I do that sometimes ::)
Try to relax if you wake. I used to have the radio by the bed with music on. Most people drift in and out without being aware.
Hi CLKD,
thanks and you are so right. I know I'm hyper aware at the moment and (over)reacting to every little thing. It's true that we normally drift in and out of sleep, but for me its like the second I wake I am "omg I am awake again :o".. and that's part of the problem I'm sure.
I think its because I had such a horrible spring and so many nights of zero sleep, that now that I've been better for a while, I get panicky that I'm on my way back to the rabbit hole again.. :(
I'm thinking of seeing my GP again, maybe to get something for sleep. Perhaps just the thought of having a sleeping pill available would already help me relax as I'd have a back up plan for sleepless night.
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Hi,
I'm waking up several times, can feel my heart beating, sleep is very light -its almost like being half awake even when sleeping - and I've also got a few hot flushes/sweats -which I'm sure is one reason why I'm waking up
You say you are now on conti Utrogestan at higher dose? Although many women find it sedative, there are a few of us on here who have the opposite effect from Utrogestan. It makes me far too hot, causes palpitations & worsens insomnia. Could you be on too much Utro now?
Wx
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I had years when I didn't sleep well, due to a very pressured job. One night I woke and thought "It hasn't killed me yet and I'm not making mistakes at work". I didn't have as many problems after that. I had 8 years in that job which I enjoyed but OhBoy! ::)
It's about attitude. What's the worst that could happen if you didn't sleep a wink? In sleep clinics it is often proven that those who think that they don't 'get much sleep' actually sleep 'enough'.
What do U do when you wake, if I'm wide awake I read.
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Hi, I'm waking up several times, can feel my heart beating, sleep is very light -its almost like being half awake even when sleeping - and I've also got a few hot flushes/sweats -which I'm sure is one reason why I'm waking up
You say you are now on conti Utrogestan at higher dose? Although many women find it sedative, there are a few of us on here who have the opposite effect from Utrogestan. It makes me far too hot, causes palpitations & worsens insomnia. Could you be on too much Utro now?
Wx
Hi Wrensong, thanks for your comment and yes, I've thought about that too. While I cant know for sure, I'm inclined to think its not because of the Utro. It's been the utro that helped me gain back my sleep in the first place. Since I started the continuous as per doctor advice, I've actually had quite good sleep, until -as said- very recently. But maybe it could be that the utro is no longer working as well.. can one develop tolerance to it, I wonder..?
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I had years when I didn't sleep well, due to a very pressured job. One night I woke and thought "It hasn't killed me yet and I'm not making mistakes at work". I didn't have as many problems after that. I had 8 years in that job which I enjoyed but OhBoy! ::)
It's about attitude. What's the worst that could happen if you didn't sleep a wink? In sleep clinics it is often proven that those who think that they don't 'get much sleep' actually sleep 'enough'.
What do U do when you wake, if I'm wide awake I read.
Thats a good question CLKD. I realised while thinking about it that for me its actually not the sleeplessness per se (I can manage the day without sleeping if need be), but more that I take the sleeplessness as a 'sign' that things may be getting worse again overall.. Having just come out from months of being extremely unwell both physically and emotionally, I'm just terrified about the idea that I would have to go there again.. and then even a small negative signal, like the few nights of bad sleep, makes me to jump into full catastrophe mode. ??? So yes, you're right, I need to relax here. ::)
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Great that the Utro has in fact helped your sleep & if your instinct is that it's not implicated in the recent worsening then I would trust that. I'd just wondered whether it could be the effect of Utro building over time that meant you'd begun to have probs. As a long term insomniac I sympathise. With any luck this will just be a blip for you.
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Great that the Utro has in fact helped your sleep & if your instinct is that it's not implicated in the recent worsening then I would trust that. I'd just wondered whether it could be the effect of Utro building over time that meant you'd begun to have probs. As a long term insomniac I sympathise. With any luck this will just be a blip for you.
Thats a good point and I'm also wondering, is there some long run effect of Utro which could turn things worse over time..or that my body is now so used to utro that it no longer has the positive impact as it used to have...
I've not been able to find any research on this, but have heard also before some ladies referring to 'utro building up'.. but I don't know what does it really mean. Is it like we build 'tolerance' to it so that impact is less, the longer we use.. or something different? Do you know more about this Wrensong? And may I ask, as you mention being a long term insomniac, any tips you could share that have worked for you?
Thanks so much again! xxx
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From personal experience of every prog variant, it seems to accumulate with me, so that the more nights I take it, the worse I feel. But I'm really prog intolerant, so at the top end of the scale in terms of adverse effects & Utro is the worst of the lot for me, so probably not the most reassuring member to chat to about it ;D! As you said you'd increased dose & gone continuous I wondered whether there was any leeway to reduce to see whether that got rid of the recent sleep issues. Do you mean you now take 200mg every night?
My insomnia long pre-dates menopause so can't blame it all on that ;D Better sleep is the holy grail for me, but accepting I'm not a gifted sleeper ::) & paying insomnia less attention, has relegated the emotional impact to some extent. During peri when it was at its very worst I found that listening to guided meditations on my MP3 when I woke in the small hours helped relax me. Counter intuitively, avoiding exercising to exhaustion by day also helped & reducing as much as poss other situations that overly stress body & mind. Regular formal meditation sessions by day also reset the body to a calmer state & over time that seems to help sleep. These days I tend to do breathing exercises to get heart rate down when I wake too hot & carried on for long enough, they do often help me drop off again. For a while! I sleep in a cool bedroom on a silk topped mattress designed to stay cool & use blinds & blackout curtains to keep the room dark. I have a big glass of cold water by the bed & drink some of that when I wake too hot, too early. I also had to change time of main meal to lunchtime as eating a big meal in the evening made me too hot at night. I do have a little supper just before bed to avoid waking with too low blood sugar & again that helps to some extent. Oestrogen & testosterone do improve my sleep but prog is an absolute killer! Still working on it.
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Thanks again Wrensong, for taking the time to respond.
I have not found myself being prog intolerant before, so that is probably not the case (unless meno has changed that too in my body, which wouldn't be a big surprise given how many other changes have happened during the past year ::)) When I still had regular periods (before HRT), I felt always the best during second half of the cycle and the days before period. During HRT, I've not had any issues with utro and it has been particularly helpful in making me fall asleep. I still fall asleep nicely, but as said, keep waking up then several times a night.
I'm taking 200mg daily which is a high dose, but my doctor wanted to test if that would help with the sleeplessness and anxiety (which it actually did, until a few days ago). I tried 100mg before but that seemed to just flow through me without much impact. Maybe I am not metabolising it very well, as I remember also one blood test showing quite low prog, while I was on 100mg daily dose.
Thanks for the many advices you share, especially the one to pay insomnia less attention is something I need to start practicing. That's my real weak point -having always been a good sleeper, its so weird for me to not sleep and I'm catastrophising it, I know.
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I was lucky never to have much in the way of PMS so seemed to tolerate my own prog without noticing it until peri began, then very quickly found 2nd half of my cycle brought the worst of symptoms, esp the few days before a period when insomnia was very troublesome indeed. So you & I seem to be quite different there & that bodes well for you.
Like you, I also rarely have probs falling asleep but I can't maintain sleep.
Again, I would trust your instinct as regards Utro being helpful, as you can always rethink later if need be. Try not to beat yourself up for being concerned though. So much changes at this stage of our lives :o it's only natural we find some of it pretty unnerving.
Wx
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I understand a bit: I never want to feel ill with depression again. :-\
Relaxation can be difficult. Have U tried working the muscles from the feet up: tense/relax/rest. I don't usually get as far as my thighs ::)
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Judging by my own experience with complete insomnia from low Estrogen, it may be that your own hormones dropped as they will until menopause. The rollercoaster is cruel, you think things are improving and then wham back down again.
What is your next move?
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Thanks again ladies, really helpful.
I'm thinking that I may not make any immediate changes yet, but will see for the next couple of days how things develop (and try to relax in the meanwhile). CLKD have to try the tense/relax/rest thing :)
If i haven't had a good night sleep by the end of this week, then I'll try and increase oestrogel a little bit to see if it helps.
Floo36: that's the thing, it may be my own hormones again in the background but I'm not sure if oestrogen is dropping or increasing. I remember now that that sometimes during high oestrogen I also had difficulties sleeping, so I wonder if it could be that. I'm struggling to understand how my own oestrogen could fall further as I haven't felt at any point it'd be increasing..but I guess anything is possible. ::)
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Sorry to hear about your problems with sleep. Once insert that you wrote about feeling panic 'OMG I'm not sleeping again', I could have written myself, especially about almost feeling traumatized about so many nights with zero sleep and almost jeopardizing your chances of sleeping because you are so concerned about it. I think the thing that helped me was getting the correct level of oestrogen (easier said than done) which enables you to start getting some deep sleep again and also reading a book on insomnia called 'The Effortless Sleeper' by Sasha Stevens. She talks about the 'fear' getting in the way and preventing you from sleeping and how to lose the fear and get back to effortless sleep. It made me feel like I was not alone and it can be normal to feel so worried about sleep when you have suffered so many nights without. Sasha had an insomnia problem for 10 years so she is talking from experience so definitely worth a read. I totally get what you have said about sleep because I have been in the same boat so many times. I'm sure that things will improve for you and it could well be just a blip which normally you wouldn't pay any attention to, had you not suffered from lack of sleep previously. x
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Hi Ella, I feel for you, not getting sleep is a nightmare. I’m a long term insomniac, built a life around managing insomnia as I didn’t find a solution.
Can you shift morning commitments until the afternoon to remove getting stressed throughout the night when you wake? This approach, even for a few days, buys you a bit of breathing space and extra time in bed if required.
I hope it passes soon, try not to concentrate on it as doing that held me back for years.
Victoria.xx
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Sorry to hear about your problems with sleep. Once insert that you wrote about feeling panic 'OMG I'm not sleeping again', I could have written myself, especially about almost feeling traumatized about so many nights with zero sleep and almost jeopardizing your chances of sleeping because you are so concerned about it. I think the thing that helped me was getting the correct level of oestrogen (easier said than done) which enables you to start getting some deep sleep again and also reading a book on insomnia called 'The Effortless Sleeper' by Sasha Stevens. She talks about the 'fear' getting in the way and preventing you from sleeping and how to lose the fear and get back to effortless sleep. It made me feel like I was not alone and it can be normal to feel so worried about sleep when you have suffered so many nights without. Sasha had an insomnia problem for 10 years so she is talking from experience so definitely worth a read. I totally get what you have said about sleep because I have been in the same boat so many times. I'm sure that things will improve for you and it could well be just a blip which normally you wouldn't pay any attention to, had you not suffered from lack of sleep previously. x
Thanks so much Shell babes! I will check out the book, it sounds helpful to balance the situation and decrease stress about insomnia. Exactly like you say, normally I would not pay attention to a few nights of bad sleep, but now it has become the center of everything and not in a good way. All this started with perimenopause, before I was fortunate to never having to worry about sleeping (other than whether I'd have a chance to sleep long enough in the mornings ;)
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Hi Ella, I feel for you, not getting sleep is a nightmare. I’m a long term insomniac, built a life around managing insomnia as I didn’t find a solution.
Can you shift morning commitments until the afternoon to remove getting stressed throughout the night when you wake? This approach, even for a few days, buys you a bit of breathing space and extra time in bed if required.
I hope it passes soon, try not to concentrate on it as doing that held me back for years.
Victoria.xx
Hi Victoria, thanks for the advice. I'm working and my mornings tend to start at a fixed time which is often (but not always) beyond my control. So I may not be able to shift most of the morning commitments, but there should be at least some that I can adjust, which could already be helpful. Thanks for your support and hope you're in a better place now with your own sleeping routine! xxx
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Hi Ella. I can fully recommend Phenergan nighttime tablets, Dr prescribed them for me exactly what you’re going through for insomnia. You can buy them over the counter at the pharmacy. They’re a form of anti histamine but aren’t addictive like sleeping pills. I’ve since recommended to friends and they’ve helped enormously.
Nothing more awful than not being able to sleep with anxiety 😥
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Hi Ella. I can fully recommend Phenergan nighttime tablets, Dr prescribed them for me exactly what you’re going through for insomnia. You can buy them over the counter at the pharmacy. They’re a form of anti histamine but aren’t addictive like sleeping pills. I’ve since recommended to friends and they’ve helped enormously.
Nothing more awful than not being able to sleep with anxiety 😥
Hi Justjules, thank you for the tip! Sounds good! Do you feel OK in the morning, not drowsy or sedated?
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Hello again, returning here to update the latest. After I initiated this thread I had one good night sleep and a few nights of OK'ish sleep, so I thought maybe it was just a blip and I'll get my sleep back. But then, last night was a disaster again. First I struggled hours to fall asleep though I was very tired (which is unusual as normally even on a bad night, I fall asleep but then wake up too early), and when I finally fell asleep, woke up in an hour and after that couldn't get back to sleep at all. :(
I cannot understand why this is happening, and have been now again thinking if it can be Utrogestan causing this -though until now I've found it beneficial for my sleep. Maybe I am developing some kind of 'tolerance' and it no longer works in the right way. Or could this be due to having done heavy exercise yesterday. I've noticed overall that my body is not what it used to be in the tolerance to high intensity sports and yesterday I felt overall I was an overdrive in the evening -fast heart rate, warm skin etc.. even though I did my exercise in the morning and had the whole day to recover.
Thankfully I have an appointment tomorrow with my GP, I will ask something to help with the sleep as I will need to wait a few more weeks before my next HRT review and I'm hesitating to stop Utro without talking to the doctor first.
Hope you are all feeling well today. xxx
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It's because your brain is focusing on not sleeping. So even when you drop off, it's whirring away - I used to wake: 2 C if I had slept ::)
Hormonal upset can cause us to be aware of symptoms that mayB quite 'normal'. Have a list to chat with the GP about?
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It's because your brain is focusing on not sleeping. So even when you drop off, it's whirring away - I used to wake: 2 C if I had slept ::)
Hormonal upset can cause us to be aware of symptoms that mayB quite 'normal'. Have a list to chat with the GP about?
Yes CLKD, that's exactly the thing. Just that, how can I get my brain to NOT focus on not sleeping.. ::) I'm sure that if I got, say, 2 weeks of good night sleep, I'd forget that I have a sleeping issue and then an occasional bad night would not be a reason to panic. At the moment I'm just all wired up and alert and don't know how to break the cycle. Hopefully my GP will have some ideas here. I wouldn't like to take sleeping pills, but maybe just having them at hand could already be helpful.
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Get out of bed and make a cuppa. Do some ironing. Focus the mind on 'not' sleeping. Read until you drop off naturally. Relaxation from toes upwards.
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Hi again EllaAurora, sorry your sleep has not improved as we'd hoped.
Or could this be due to having done heavy exercise yesterday. I've noticed overall that my body is not what it used to be in the tolerance to high intensity sports and yesterday I felt overall I was an overdrive in the evening -fast heart rate, warm skin etc..
Yes, this is what I meant when I posted earlier about finding that excessive exercise counter-intuitively began to worsen my sleep when things all began to go haywire in peri. I never exercised close to bedtime then & don't now. I think it's the physical stress of exercise on the body that has adverse effects on sleep, just as psychological stress can. I get that some women find if they get tired out through a good workout that improves their sleep & same applied to me when younger, but frustratingly that has changed with age. I'm certainly not saying don't exercise, but could you maybe experiment with a less punishing routine to see whether that helps?
Simply being too warm at bedtime may have stopped you dropping off - it does me. Don't forget progesterone raises body temperature too, so I do wonder whether your hefty 200mg daily Utrogestan dose is perhaps detrimental to your sleep. Even 100mg makes me way too hot.
Wx
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Get out of bed and make a cuppa. Do some ironing. Focus the mind on 'not' sleeping. Read until you drop off naturally. Relaxation from toes upwards.
I will have to try these. So far I've tried to stay in bed and not do anything, as it felt like if I get up, I'll give up on sleep altogether.. but I guess that's exactly the trick, right, to accept the insomnia -no matter how difficult it is.
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Hi again EllaAurora, sorry your sleep has not improved as we'd hoped. Or could this be due to having done heavy exercise yesterday. I've noticed overall that my body is not what it used to be in the tolerance to high intensity sports and yesterday I felt overall I was an overdrive in the evening -fast heart rate, warm skin etc..
Yes, this is what I meant when I posted earlier about finding that excessive exercise counter-intuitively began to worsen my sleep when things all began to go haywire in peri. I never exercised close to bedtime then & don't now. I think it's the physical stress of exercise on the body that has adverse effects on sleep, just as psychological stress can. I get that some women find if they get tired out through a good workout that improves their sleep & same applied to me when younger, but frustratingly that has changed with age.
Simply being too warm at bedtime may have stopped you dropping off - it does me. Don't forget Utrogestan raises body temperature too, so I do wonder whether your hefty 200mg daily dose is perhaps detrimental to your sleep. Even 100mg makes me way too hot.
Wx
Hi Wrensong, I'm the same, I need my body to be cool before I can sleep. I always know if my skin is hot/warm, I will not fall asleep. I also need a low bedroom temperature, which fortunately I have. Hadn't thought about the impact of utrogestan on body temperature, but that's true of course.
Maybe that is the reason..? I'd love to switch to 100mg, but as I tried it before it didn't have any impact on me and also blood test showed low progesterone even though I was taking 100mg daily. I've also tried utro during days 14-26, but the fluctuations seem to be the worst for me and I felt really bad on the no utro days. Now I'm more calm and feeling better otherwise, but the sleep is just getting worse again. ::)
I used to get great night sleep after exercise and before this peri madness really kicked in, I was always doing exercise in the evening with absolutely no negative impact on sleep (on the contrary). So strange how the hormones change everything ???
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It's 'the change' ;)
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Hi Ella, sorry to hear about sleep being a problem. I used to stay in bed and relax even if I couldn’t sleep, mediation is good to have nearby.
Do you feel better on or off Utrogestan please? I’m asking because on it I feel better but hungry 24/7 and off it I feel sad, it feels like a withdrawal which many others have posted about but I wasn’t aware of.
Thanks,
V.x
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I do understand your dilemma Ella, just trying to work through with you what might be going on.
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I do understand your dilemma Ella, just trying to work through with you what might be going on.
Yes, and its very helpful, thank you Wrensong. I'll bring these questions to the HRT review. It feels at the moment like there's no solution, but hopefully the doctor can work something out. I'll try to stay on utro now until the appointment.
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Hi Ella, sorry to hear about sleep being a problem. I used to stay in bed and relax even if I couldn’t sleep, mediation is good to have nearby.
Do you feel better on or off Utrogestan please? I’m asking because on it I feel better but hungry 24/7 and off it I feel sad, it feels like a withdrawal which many others have posted about but I wasn’t aware of.
Thanks,
V.x
Hi Victoria,
I'm also hungry all the time, which may be due to utro actually. I've just let myself eat after several months of no appetite, but frankly should start watching a bit more carefully again as I feel I've put up some weight. :P Its just been so wonderful to have appetite again that I've allowed myself to indulge.
I feel a clear improvement compared to 2-3 months ago, but of course difficult to say if its because of utro or because of Estrogel and the fact that I've been (very slowly) able to increase it. I can say, though, that Utrogestan has had a stabilising and calming effect already before when I was on sequential regime. I always felt better during utro days than without it and it has helped me sleep.
Now I'm just all of the sudden struggling with sleep again, and have started suspecting if that has something to do with my high dose utrogestan.. Otherwise I feel quite OK with it -maybe a bit more tired and low energy than normal, but I'm usually very high energy so even with the 'downer' effect I'm still quite 'normal' (whatever that means nowadays ;) )
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Hi Ella,
Thanks for sharing. I know what you mean by high energy, I’m the same! You sound more confident and positive and well, it’s really good to hear, well read, you know what I mean!
I’m glad you feel hungry on Utrogestan days too, I’ve had to throw everything out that’ naughty as I really don’t want to put weight on.
I haven’t felt as hungry today and definitely not sad so I don’t think I have a progesterone intolerance. I’m looking forward to the time when I can go onto Conti to avoid the no Utrogestan days.
I hope you wake up feeling great!
Victoria.xx