Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Cocobra on April 04, 2021, 11:21:04 AM
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Dear Forum members,
this is a question which I'd like to ask but I put a premise before I do: I am absolutely enthusiastic of the vaccine and received my first jab last Monday with joy and marvel at the speedy advancement of medical research.
My question is: have doctors and specialists made any claims in regards to the incidence of clotting with the vaccine in women on artificial hormones? I know clotting with AZ is extremely rare, but the incidence is mostly on women under 60. This past week a 32-year-old woman was taken to intensive care in Italy after suffering a brain haemorrhage 10 days after her first AZ jab - the press underlined she was taking contraceptive. It might be that we do not yet have enough data to judge either way, but should those of us on HRT be considered carefully at what type of vaccine we are given?
I was talking to my haematologist cousin (in Italy) who told me she was surprised I was never tested for blood coagulation before going on HRT. Perhaps this is something we should ask to our GP.
As I said, I'm very happy we are on the vaccine rollout; I'd simply ask whether anyone has any information on the matter.
Thank you and HAPPY EASTER, everyone!
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There should be no clot risk with transdermal products.
JP x
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What other health conditions did the Italian woman suffer with over the years? We rarely get the whole story.
If worried fill in the Yellow Card?
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Hello Cocobra.
I hope that data is being collected on those unfortunate enough to suffer blood clots so that we can determine who is at risk. Many women take tablet HRT and I don't suppose any of them have had blood coagulation tests.
I wonder if younger women taking the contraceptive pill will be at risk of blood clots and perhaps they should have blood coagulation tests before taking the vaccine. I will certainly make this point to my daughter!
Wishing you well.
K.
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Dear All,
many thanks, everyone! Yes, I suppose taking the patches lower the risks and I understand the pro-thrombotic nature of contraceptives is higher than it is for HRT more generally. I also completely agree that the press spouts out claims without giving the full clinical profile of the person talked about (the poor woman died today, tragically).
I'm also mindful that there's been an incidence in women largely because those receiving the first jab are health staff and teachers, a profession that includes more women than men.
Kathleen, as for coagulation tests, in Italy gynaecologists always make you take one before deciding whether you can take contraceptives. I don't know whether this is the case in the UK but if not, well worth considering demanding!
All best to everyone, Corinna
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I would have thought transdermal hrt would be a protective factor.
My ex MIL had a stroke 18 hours after receiving the AZ vaccination (she survived). That said the numbers of this happening in the UK are so low maybe she would have had one anyway - she’s 75.
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I'm very sorry to hear about your MIL, Perinowpost. But I take your point entirely. It may be that lockdown has raised my anxiety levels! :'(
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I too have had my first dose of the AZ jab and due second one later this month. I can't use hrt as I was diagnosed with bilateral pe's 4 years ago that resulted in having major surgery at Papworth hospital. They are putting the cause of the pe's down to the hrt that I had been taking, I am now on blood thinner for life
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Debs165, sorry to hear you had PEs. That must've been very scary. What HRT were you taking at the time?
I'm concerned about taking the AZ vaccine as for the past few years, every time I have a blood test (I have had many) my platelets have clumped. I'm beginning to think my blood could be reacting to the anticoagulant in the blood collection tube called EDTA. I looked at the ingredients of the AZ vaccine and there is also an ingredient called EDTA! I have asked my haematologist again by email as he didn't seem sure when I spoke to him before (when I was referred to discuss whether I could have HRT). The doctors at the surgery have never been able to explain and just tell me to get a re-test with another method and collection tube (thrombo-exact) and this way they can count my platelets. So I will try and see if I can get an alternative vaccine and it seems like our next batch in the UK could be the Moderna vaccine anyway.
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Debs165, that must have been frightening and I am very sorry to hear about this. Moonflower, this is important information, but I take it that you are well looked after if you have regular contact with a haematologist.
I think I will call my GP though I am not sure whether one can take a second dose with another vaccine. It would not be a bad idea perhaps to have a coagulation test done.
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@Kathleen, when I was on the birth control pill, the leaflet it came with said there was an increased risk of blood clots and that if I were planning on taking any long distance flights, I should check with my GP about stopping it for the time I was travelling due to increased risk of DVT. So I checked with my GP and she just said 'you shouldn't be on it in the first place if you're at risk of blood clots'. So not very helpful! But it might explain why younger women seem to be the ones mostly affected - although they still haven't found a definite link between the clotting and the jab.
I did read an article yesterday that pointed out that the risk of dying of Covid is still much greater. 7 in 1 million for the jab, whereas if you infected the same 1million with Covid instead, 250 would die.
I've got my first jab this week, and while I'm a little worried about side effects, I'm reminding myself that I'm probably more at risk driving to the vaccination centre than I am from having the jab!
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AZ and HRT is a concern for me since these adverse effects have been reported. I had my first AZ over 3 weeks ago and didn’t have any troublesome side effects besides a sore arm. Now we’ve had all the stories on the news and some countries suspending use of AZ in under-55s with the spotlight on younger women of reproductive age and possibly taking the contraceptive pill.
I’m 58 and I’m on full HRT so I feel on the periphery of what appears to be the higher risk demographic, which makes me somewhat hesitant.
I’m under the care of haematology because I have Haemochromatosis and I’m due to have a review with my consultant about 2 weeks before my second AZ. So far my platelet count has always been in the normal range but I don’t know if that’s even relevant with regard to the current concerns about the AZ vaccine. At least I will be getting these blood tests ahead of my second vaccination, and perhaps in a few weeks time we might know more about who should or shouldn’t have AZ. But I admit, I’m feeling quite unsettled with it all.
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@Kathleen, when I was on the birth control pill, the leaflet it came with said there was an increased risk of blood clots and that if I were planning on taking any long distance flights, I should check with my GP about stopping it for the time I was travelling due to increased risk of DVT. So I checked with my GP and she just said 'you shouldn't be on it in the first place if you're at risk of blood clots'. So not very helpful! But it might explain why younger women seem to be the ones mostly affected - although they still haven't found a definite link between the clotting and the jab.
I did read an article yesterday that pointed out that the risk of dying of Covid is still much greater. 7 in 1 million for the jab, whereas if you infected the same 1million with Covid instead, 250 would die.
I've got my first jab this week, and while I'm a little worried about side effects, I'm reminding myself that I'm probably more at risk driving to the vaccination centre than I am from having the jab!
A friend of mine had a clot whilst on the pill. That's one of the reasons I decided against it.
But as you say it's about risk management.
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Hello again ladies.
I have mentioned my concerns to my thirty one year old daughter as she takes the BCP. I have also suggested that she has a coagulation test pre jab if she can.
A friend of mine suffered a blood clot and died after routine knee surgery and I wasn't aware that she had any risk factors at the time. I wonder if this complication is more common than we think. I believe that getting post op patients up and moving asap is one of the ways to reduce the possibility of a blood clot and I think compression stockings are also used but I could be wrong.
Now that this issue is being reported we can at least be better informed before we make our decisions about the vaccine. For the record, I have had my first AstraZeneca jab so will be happy to have the second one.
Take care ladies.
K.
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Dear Kathleen,
I'm so sorry - that is terrible to hear about your friend: one never thinks of this for routine surgery even though we sign things off nonchalantly (at least I have done in the past).
I have actually written to my cousin who's an haematologist at one of Italy's best hospitals: she's young but she will have more insight on this which I will be glad to pass on.
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I'm 57 and on Oestrogel (and a Mirena for the progesterone) and had my first AZ jab just over three weeks ago. I will be returning for my second jab, unless otherwise advised by my GP (unlikely, I would guess).
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Cocobra, thanks so much for asking this question. I don’t have any great insight, but the same concerns as others. There’s been a focus around young women on the pill but no mention of us more mature ladies on HRT. I’m 51, fit and healthy. Had my first AZ jab and had nearly every side effect listed on the pack. I’m not really certain who to speak to about my questions and I worry if I don’t have the jab I’ll put others at risk. If I find any helpful (credible) info I’ll post here if that’s allowed.
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thanks for sharing this question and everyone who has joined in with their thoughts. It is a sort of comfort to know I am not the only one wondering about the vaccine and HRT.
I had my first AZ vaccine back in January and I am due my second in this next week although I have not had the phone call yet.
I also had many side effects from the first dose and was in bed for three days. I have had covid though making side effects more likely apparently.
I am 57 and on HRT ( conti).
I am in two minds about a second dose. I think my iron levels may be low too and that makes clot issues more likely. But the problems of the AZ vaccine may have nothing to do with low iron. I am sure the medical histories of all the unfortunate vaccinees will have been thoroughly looked into but that info is just not available to the public. So we have some information to spook us but not quite enough to know whether we should be spooked.
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I’m glad I’m not the only one who has concerns regarding the Astra Zeneca vaccine and hrt. I’ve 63 and have been on a transdermal conti regime for the past six years. I realise there is supposedly less risk of clots with the transdermal route, but after my first dose of the vaccine at the beginning of March, I had a couple of hours of pains in my right calf one evening ( about a week later). I took a low dose aspirin and again for the next couple of days just as a precaution. Of course I appreciate the pain may have had nothing to do with the vaccine, but I hadn’t experienced it before. I wonder if it might be an idea to take an aspirin for a few days again when I go for my second shot? All the focus seems to be on the under 30’s age group at the
moment so who is going to listen to the concerns of us older ladies?
I do want a second dose, but after the calf pain I must admit I’m a little concerned about it happening again.
I realise the majority of clots that are being talked about are rare ones that occur in the brain, but there have also been cases of clots in the abdomen and legs.
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Hi Linz57. also the rare blood clots are combined with low platelets which is an odd combo. So it leads me thinking about whether aspirin would help? Or make things worse. It really is head spinning stuff. We just dont know enough hence the worry.
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Hi Menomope, yes good point regarding aspirin and low platelets, thanks for mentioning it, I hadn’t thought about that.
The conference today was inconclusive, so it’s not really answered our concerns, all we kept hearing was that the benefits outweigh the risks :-\
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Dear All,
thank you for all your thoughts. I've texted my haematologist cousin to see whether she can tell us something more ... But I did read (here:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/07/what-do-i-need-to-know-about-the-oxfordastrazeneca-vaccine) that using aspirin won't be of great help and might be counterproductive, Linz57. So, perhaps hold off it and have a word with your GP? Perhaps asking for a coagulation test?
I must admit that there's a lot of talk about women on the pill and in pregnancy in talking about clotting problems. Nothing whatsoever on women on HRT. To say this is frustrating is to put it mildly.
Have a good day, everyone!
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I wonder whether if we were ok after the first jab ie no clotting problem this means we would be ok after second dose? These are the sort of questions we need an answer to!
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This is the best information I have found so far.
BBC News - AstraZeneca vaccine: How do you weigh up the risks and benefits?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-56665396
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I'm due for my first jab tomorrow, and I must admit, I'm feeling a bit nervous (iron low atm too, so that's not helping!)
But I keep reminding myself that life is risky. People are killed in road accidents every year, but I bet not many people think, whenever they get in their car, 'am I going to survive this journey?'. So not much point going for my vaccination thinking 'am I going to survive this jab?'!!!
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Hi cocobra, thanks for the information, it’s a great help, I’ll definitely not use aspirin when I get my 2nd shot.
Yes, I’ll attempt to have a chat with my doctor, although I know what he will say .... “follow the government guidelines and get your second dose “
It looks like once again we are the forgotten group and here’s the thing.... if 3 of the 19 deaths were in the under 30’s age group, then that means the remaining 16 were over 30! Hmmm...let’s hope we get some answers on this soon.
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Absolutely Gnatty. This is surely a question on a lot of people's minds ( millions) right now who are in line for their second dose from AZ? I note that Germany's regulation authority have said under 60's should get a different vaccine for their second dose.
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Cocobra, thanks for raising this issue & to everyone who's shared their thoughts. Makes for interesting reading on a topic I imagine has been on many of our minds if we're on any form of HRT that's not entirely transdermal. I had my 1st AZ jab about a month ago with pretty unpleasant side effects but only for 24 hrs & will be having the 2nd, unless we are advised against it by then. My male partner had the AZ jab same day & no side effects. The day we had the jab we came home to first media reports of various EU countries suspending use of the vaccine.
I've bruised easily for a number of years - starting before HRT - especially in fingers & feet, but so does my same age partner, so we assume down to ageing. Managed to bruise a finger simply opening a door (lever handle - light pressure is enough) a couple of weeks after the jab & my partner also had a bruised finger, seemingly for no reason, a few days later. Unusually this time, with each of us, a hard, painful, lump formed at the site of the bruise & has gradually reduced in size. We both wondered about the jab.
I'm postmenopause, late 50s, on transdermal oestrogen with an oral progestogen cyclically (MPA), on a non-standard long-cycle regimen. MPA is considered to increase clotting risk slightly. I'd delayed the jab appointment date to get my MPA phase over with first, simply because MPA makes me feel rough & I didn't want possible side effects from the jab on top. Our 2nd AZ dose is due end May & as a precaution with the uncertainties of the publicized clotting issue in mind, I will be moving my MPA phase forward by a week to make sure I finish it a couple of weeks before the jab.
Otherwise, I'm not going to worry at the mo - there are so many risks in life statistically far greater than that reported so far from the AZ jab that we probably give little thought to. As others have pointed out, driving being one. I'm not qualified to interpret the data and at this stage, for the 2 of us it feels more sensible & responsible to get fully vaccinated unless the situation changes.
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Hello ladies
It was reported on yesterday's news that the blood clotting incidents had occurred after the first AstraZeneca vaccination. The advice was to go ahead with the second jab if all was well after the first one. However there was no mention of how many people had received both injections to date so I assume data is limited.
As I have said I am happy to have my second dose of AstraZeneca but I would prefer my thirty one year old daughter to have the Pfizer one.
Take care ladies.
K.
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Yes Kathleen
It was reported on yesterday's news that the blood clotting incidents had occurred after the first AstraZeneca vaccination. The advice was to go ahead with the second jab if all was well after the first one. However there was no mention of how many people had received both injections to date so I assume data is limited.
I'd thought much the same. Not yet entirely convinced by the reasoning that if OK after first jab no need to worry about 2nd :o! But the experts know way more than I do ;D
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I was also wondering about HRT and the AZ jab. But, 26 men have had clots too. Also the 2nd dose is supposed to be a smaller dose so I don’t know whether that would make a difference.
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Dear All,
I have spoken to my haematologist cousin properly: she assured me that there is no known relation between AZ and artificial hormones, whether contraceptive or HRT and that there is still poor understanding of the causes of post-AZ thrombosis syndromes. She also reassured me about the rarity of the latter; it is at this stage anecdotal, given how rare it is statistically. Finally, for those of us who have been on HRT for a while (a few years) or indeed on the pill (I've been for many years on both!) we should be reassured that any thrombotic syndrome would have emerged already if our bodies were susceptible.
It's great to hear this. And I hope this will reassure you as much as it has reassured me.
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Hi Cocobra, thanks so much for letting us know the outcome :thankyou:. As you say that's good news & seems very reassuring. :)
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Thank you Cocobra for sharing analysis from your cousin. :)
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I must admit I am concerned about taking the top-up vaccine; as I was very unwell with the first Astra Zeneca shot. I hear where you are coming from Cocobra. I know that I wasn't asked any questions about HRT when I went for my first vaccine; and the confusing thing is that I have had migraines on hrt, so it is difficult to know whether the vaccine is causing headaches or whether it is hrt. There are definite concerns, and yes, perhaps the presumption that women in a certain age category aren't taking anything that would contrevene?
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Hi Sophie20
I also spent three days quite ill in bed after my first vaccine. I was not asked anything either. It was an in, vaccine delivered and out experience. Which is, of course, all it can be.
I might be reassured if I could speak to someone about my concerns but with no opportunity to do this I am in two minds about having it.
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Although this is anecdotal, my understanding with the Astra Zeneca is that you experience fewer side effects with the second dose. I don't know if anyone reading this has had second jab and can confirm? Also it was stated there had been no blood clots with second dose. Now my immediate thought on that is that not many younger people in this country have had second dose so I think that's slightly suspect in terms of reliability/enough data. But, there will be more data as time goes by and I think that it won't be too long before we have a bit more clarification/ evidence.
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Although this is anecdotal, my understanding with the Astra Zeneca is that you experience fewer side effects with the second dose. I don't know if anyone reading this has had second jab and can confirm? Also it was stated there had been no blood clots with second dose. Now my immediate thought on that is that not many younger people in this country have had second dose so I think that's slightly suspect in terms of reliability/enough data. But, there will be more data as time goes by and I think that it won't be too long before we have a bit more clarification/ evidence.
Two nurses in our family, that both had nasty side effects with first dose. Nothing at all with the second.
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I've read the other way round so am dreading my 2nd dose :-\
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I also heard that with AZ vaccine first dose is worse. So that is good to hear Shadyglade. I have had covid so maybe that complicates things with side effects I dont know.
With Phizer- second dose can be worse.
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My OH had the Pfizer one. On both occasions he suffered dreadful side effects.
Migraine like headaches, fever, fatigue. I’m dreading my second dose of the same one. Although I suffered nothing at all from my first. I have read, the second dose packs a punch. 😳
He also had Covid last year, resulting in double pneumonia and a long stint in hospital, so whether that has anything to do with his side effects, is anyone’s guess. xx
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Some of my friends have had their 2nd and say they felt worse, I’m sure I read somewhere that the 2nd can pack a bigger punch, something to do with the first stimulating the immune system and the second being recognised (don’t quote me on that).
Have also heard people who had covid already say they felt awful after vaccines.
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Yes, I've been told Pfizer is worst on the second dose - not looking forward to that. Had my first dose Friday morning and still feeling rough...although I no longer want to tear my arm off at the shoulder, so obviously improving!
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Dear All,
thanks so much for all your useful thoughts and for voicing further concerns. A couple of things to consider: headaches from thrombotic syndrome are absolutely piercing and localised. I, too, have suffered headaches at the beginning of HRT and on and off since but nothing near that.
On the second dose with AZ, I, too, heard that side effects should be minor (this read in the Guardian, not info from my cousin!). And my mum in Italy was told that the second dose of Pfizer would give more side effects: in fact, she had none both with the first and second dose - same for my Aunt and Uncle, all young boy and girls in their 80s!
As I said, I am reassured that my cousin told me not to worry about any possible relationship between AZ and artificial hormones, but I am all ears to any future knowledge on the matter since she made it clear we do not really understand yet, incontrovertibly, the cause and effect between AZ and thrombotic syndromes.
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Morning Cocobra - :thankyou: Every day is a Learning Curve and C-19 is getting our heads together, hopefully to improve medical information over all.
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Morning CLKD! I could not agree with you more! :)
Oh, and just to give a fuller picture: my mum at 80 has been on HRT since she started perimenopause (young, at 43, like me), because of a severe osteoporosis.
I also should say that I hold the medical profession to the highest esteem: they have made huge advances for a disease they cannot yet understand fully. Today I feel optimistic!
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One of my daughters had the AZ vaccination and had flu like symptoms for 24 hours afterwards. The other one had the Pfizer and had a sore arm with the first jab and nothing at all with the second x
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:thankyou: