Menopause Matters Forum
General Discussion => This 'n' That => Topic started by: C.C. on March 04, 2021, 07:18:08 PM
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So for all you pupper parents, I wanted to ask what is your opinion on a completely raw diet for dogs.
We have friends that have a 10-year-old Golden and they referred me to their breeder. Since they've had their dog, the breeder has changed his kennel to a holistic model and put all his dogs and subsequent pups on a raw diet. I found out that he will not sell a pup to a family if they are not committed to giving the raw diet. I contacted him and asked him for more information and he sent me 4 or 5 online articles about how bad the mass-produced kibble is for dogs, how they don't provide all the essential vitamins etc. He works with a veterinary nutritionist who has a bunch of certificates but not a proper university degree. When I told him I wasn't certain, he sent me a pretty rude message back starting with "I will not work with you". I offered to do my own research but that didn't matter just because I questioned it. My daughter is taking Veterinary Technology and she was taught a raw diet is problematic and only for dogs with severe allergies and I told him that, and that our vet would never recommend a raw diet. That's when the breeder got defensive and shut me down.
So is the raw diet better?
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Ignore this breeder. Being rude when one believes something works ain't the way to go! Go elsewhere!
Many Vets are 'against' a raw diet as they are tied into commercial dog food as well as drug companies - so there's a conflict of interests.
There are a lot of additives in commercially based foods 2 pad them out. The 1st canned meat in the UK was 'pal' in the middle 1960s. B4 then dogs had been fed extras from the human table, my Aunt cooked extra veg for example with mince. Weekly they would get a raw egg instead. Think about what dogs would eat in the wild?
As tinned dog food became popular companies decided to add other things, i.e. wheat, flour, a little meat ....... reading the ingredients would turn my stomach sometimes, very little actual meat.
Hounds in the UK are fed dead stock .......... usually on the bone or boiled for hours with kibble. OH the smell ;D.
Tripe - fed raw or cooked: :-X YUK but dogs love it. 'butchers tripe' (a UK tinned meat) the company then added carrots, peas etc. to the tins ...... a bit of a gimmick in my opinion though my lady never turned her nose up.
Have a look at the BARF web-site. Bones and Raw Food. A friend feeds his 3 whippets on bones, raw meat and raw chicken wings plus mixing up fruits/veg in chicken stock (like we have stock to hand ::) )with minerals twice a week. He also throws in minced beef once a week mixed with veg. . He has a separate freezer for storage and is Very Well Organised ;D
In the wild a dog will not get a 'balanced diet' any more than humans do! In the wild dogs will scavanage. They eat the paunch first [I think] then tear the meat away. Depending on how hungry they might be. This will dig bones into the ground to 'save for later' ;D.
Cooked chicken bones can cause damage due to splinters. Raw young chickens wings, carcase and neck bones will keep the teeth clean. When I was young dog poo was white crumbly chalky deposits, because the dog absorbed all the goodness from the raw diet.
Although my cocker had commercial foods: meat, mixer and Shapes biscuits ......... plus raw veg., particularly carrots. She had to have 2 Shapes biscuits [the recipe goes back to the 1930s] which she ate in the kitchen, plus a carrot which she took upstairs 2 bed. Carrying it like a fag in her gob. She would sit by DH whilst he was preparing our meals and he would drop cabbage, cauliflower, carrot onto the floor 4 her.
I would go raw feeding next time, our butchers will prepare dog packs in small amounts for freezing.
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It is a matter of convenience. Why doesn't your Vet recommend a 'raw' diet? Is the Surgery tied in?
Why is a raw, natural' diet problematic? Why do dogs get allergies ? Westies are particularly prone to skin conditions, a friend put her 2 year old onto a raw diet and it improved the skin, within 6 months the dog had stopped scratching, having shed her old coat and the new fur is wonderfully soft and doesn't smell.
Allergies are often caused by what is hidden in commercial dog foods, whether canned [wet] or dried 'kibble]-type biscuits. As with humans, dogs can react to wheat which they would rarely encounter in the wild. "But they would need a tin opener" 1 bright kid said to me "if they lived in the wild" ::) ;D.
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I think you've to buy special raw food from a raw food specialist,as if YOU freeze it,you don't want to freeze the bacteria too. We found it too difficult with the raw food as we go away a lot (well,used to at least) and transporting frozen meat was a big hassle. You get fabulous kibble now,which is actually raw meat with no cereals etc in it.
It's so confusing these days with all the foods on the market but I'd always go for a high end one as they have 80% meat in them.Good luck
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Raw Made Simple - another web site.
Which bacteria are you worried about jaypo? Not all is bad bacteria ! and my friend has never had problems getting his meats frozen at our butcher. Big companies may use very quick freezing methods which owners won't have access to.
I found fresh sweet corn and peas went straight through ;D undigested (hopefully you aren't eating your afternoon meal) ::)
What's the kibble made of jaypo? One has to have a biscuit-type base to bind the meat to hold as a kibble? Some commercial foods state 'meat' but it's actually rubbish swept off the floor, ;D : not quite but not always high end meat products. Hygine in pet food factories is higher than in UK human factories ;-)
I think a dog should be given a wide variety of food stuffs anyway or they can get fussy! A kibble-type is easier when travelling when access to a freezer isn't possible, I would carry dried 'bakers complete' beef cubes for days out. Easy to feed as well as throwing for her to find with her nose.
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Bet he cooks his own food which is just as unnatural as dogs eating cooked food. Sorry but anyone who refuses to engage sounds like a zealot who can't answer you genuine concerns. Any domestic animal has a more restricted diet than a wild one so sometimes they don't get all the vits and minerals they need and which should be in quality animal feed (who employ an army of properly trained nutritionists). The raw meat my dog gets hold of if I don't watch her like a hawk - rotting placentas - definitely don't do her any good, it has a nasty effect on her guts.
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Oh not another placenta lover ;D. The only time I almost lost my breakfast was when mine got hold of a freshly delivered after birth :-X. She enjoyed every chewy bit she could gas off, looking sideways at me as I shouted 'let it go!'. It was too heavy for her to drag away ;D but OH! then she wanted to give me a kiss :o :D
What do you feed yours on sheila?
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It's freeze dried clkd,the raw food I mean but my little poodle mix is so super fussy,in fact to date she hasn't eaten much in 3 days and she's had no treats either,I've tried literally every food there is ;D well,not quite but close,so if anyone has any ideas? The high quality foods like Sheila says are definitely more scrutinised than human food and aren't floor sweepings and THATS what you're paying for
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When my cats wouldn't eat I put their food into the microwave. It encourages aromas as animals lose their sense of smell as they age. Also many would eat warm grub in the wild. Let it cool slightly then feed? Also, how are the teeth?
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Her teeth are good. the microwave is a good idea,will give that a try thanks
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Sore under the tongue? Pets aren't fussy with food usually, often it's because the manufacturer has altered the recipe >:(. My cats knew! they could smell the difference ::)
Also make it fun. For those who use kibble, why not throw the food around garden/lounge - when we went on holiday there was a deeply patterned carpet :-X and I would throw bakers complete so that she had to work for her supper. When we went back 12 months later, she went straight under the Welsh dresser to eat the bits left from the year B4 >:(. It was a student let but supposedly cleaned B4 each visitor. Yeah. Right ? ;D
Oh and the pork bone down the arm of the sofa, her nose honed on that 1 as soon as we walked into the bungalow :rofl: Even so we used it 3 years running ...........
Back to raw diet: if 1 wants to used cooked foods, DIY. There are plenty of recipes out there.
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Haha,you haven't met my dog,she is SUPER fussy,such a diva.Long time ago all my little spaniel would eat was chappie,cheap rubbish but he loved it,do you still get it? I'm sure it was Shetland ponies ;D
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Chappie :-X ;D in a long red tin? It stunk but it had nowt in it other than meat and gravy. No additives! Our sheepdog had a gippy gut, it was the 1 thing he could keep inside long enough to gain nourishment!
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Is Chappie dog food good for your dog?
Healthy Skin and Coat. Chappie contains everything your dog needs to keep him full of vitality. Chappie contains chicken which is gentle on your dog's sensitive stomach, whilst natural fibres actively contribute to healthy intestinal function. Chappie contains calcium and phosphorus to help support healthy bones.
Interestingly more recent recipes have 4% chicken and a lot more what I would class as rubbish ........... also, many pet foods are made in China .
Raw food is basic dog grub. Meat. My sister's whippet catches and eats rabbits in the skin :o; 2 days later he will throw up the fur ;D.
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Awwww what a lovely story whilst I'm eating my breakfast,thanks clkd ;D ;D
Well little shitzy Mitzi has eaten her supper last night AND her brekky this morning after heating it up slightly,she's on Forthglade food but rest assured,she'll soon get fed up of it warm too,don't ya just luv em >:(
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So cut her rations in half, she may be having too much ;-). Or bored with the diet?
I'm having my breakfast too ......... would you like to know where he throws up the fur :D
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Ehhhhh,no,you're all right thanks ;D
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We feed raw to our dog.
Kibble foods bought in pet shops cause so many skin and other complaints.
It’s the fillers they put in, to bulk the food up.
It can be problematic when going away, but, if the kennels have freezers, which most do, then we take our own food.
It works for our dog, ......costs roughly £130 every 5 weeks or so. 🤷🏼♀️
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tnx jillydoll - cheaper than commercial foods then?
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I don’t really know tbh, I’ve never looked how much chappie is. ;D
My OH is an authority on raw food. Well, he thinks he is. ;D ;D
We used to feed her raw chicken, outside. But it’s too messy. So I put a stop to that. ;D
RAW chicken wings are really good for them.
But give my dog a marrow bone, oh noooo, she looks at it to say, What you give me that for? ;D
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Mine loved a raw lamb bone, mid Sat. morning. However, for weeks, after I had got into my 9.00 p.m. bath, I could hear DH clearing up :-X it was simply too rich for her guts.
Did she not have her chicken on a plate jillydoll ;D. Wings are great for keeping teeth clean.
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A plate? ;D
Nooooo, we’re not posh enough for plates. ;D
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I'll second that ;D
Our shepherd is on a super strict diet,her food has actual chicken feathers through it,well,not through it but mixed in the kibble,she can't stomach ANYTHING other than her food but shepherds are renowned for their dodgey stomachs
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Does her food flap around the kitchen jaypo ;)
If certain breeds have gut/skin problems, the is something that the Kennel Club should have sorted?
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Don't get me started on KC clkd ;D
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That would be too much of a meander ?
Where's C.C. in all this ?
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Are the chicken wings fed whole or minced up? I'd be worried about bones.
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Are the chicken wings fed whole or minced up? I'd be worried about bones.
I feed mine whole wings. Being raw, the bones aren't brittle, so they are perfectly safe.
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Whole. Raw chicken is usually so young that it isn't brittle anyway. Good for the teeth.
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What about worms? And other bugs normally killed by cooking?
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Holy :meauh: ! You guys are all over the place! Thanks for the feedback. :)
I fed Penny small amounts of raw veggies and fruit and she loved that. I gave her a raw egg once in a while, for extra protein.
Yesterday I met up with my friend who is fostering again from that same breeder and the puppy is the absolute sweetest little guy. Anyway, she told me about how precise his feeding has to be, at the same time every day. Everything has to be measured out exactly to the ounce. She gets the food from the breeder and everything has to be frozen. She has a supply for a month and she is struggling to find enough freezer space. This dog gets pork, beef, turkey, mussels, oysters, turkey necks etc. She gives him a few treats once in a while even though she's not supposed to. He will eventually be shown in the ring and if his health clearances are good he will probably be a stud dog.
My dd will talk to our vet on Tuesday when she is at the clinic for her placement and ask him about his views on a raw diet.
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Once the breeder has sold it he can't dictate how the new owner looks after it, it's up to the new owner to do whatever he thinks is in the dog's best interest. Absolutely he should be sure it will go to a good home but if he wants to micro manage it would be better not to sell. As far as I'm aware there's no scientific consensus that raw is intrinsically better.
Fostering is different as it still belongs to him.
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I agree with you. The raw diet is part of his contract when you get one of his pups. He supplies the food so he will know if you are not feeding the food he insists upon. My dd was told in vet tech school to beware of breeders like that.
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NEVER PORK! Nor shellfish!!!
What's he trying to do, poison his stock 'cos at the end of the day, that's what it appears 2B: money making with control. I wouldn't touch his pups with a barge pole ........ not because I wouldn't love one but I couldn't put up with such domineering behaviour.
Let us know what you DD is told, though do be aware that the Vet mayB tied into a Commercial Pet Food Contract ;-). Not that I would particularly listen to what he/she might suggest, as there are pros and cons to any diet and convenience is probably what people need.
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I don't think our vet is tied to a contract. When we had Penny he didn't recommend any particular brand of kibble, he just wanted to know she was getting what she needed.
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What we think they need and what they will help themselves too however, might not be 1 and the same ;D
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That is so true ;D
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The night I went to collect my cocker, aged 7 months, she nicked a sandwich off a plate that the owner had left whilst opening the door to us ;D. No remorse. Ever. Her attitude was 'you left it .......... ' :D
It was the cow's placenta that ......... oh, I've probably said that already ;D
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Cooked bones are more harmful to dogs.
Raw chicken bones are soft and pliable, so no problem.
You should never give dogs cooked bones.
And never pork, there’s something in pork that their stomachs can’t digest, plus the germs in pork.
With fruit, there’s some fruit dogs can’t have, like grapes, poison to dogs. And apple pips, they contain cyanide....
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Raisins as well,was watching the Yorkshire vet & this dog had eaten a packet of them and the vet had to make it vomit,funny how they can't stomach what you would think are innocent foods
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grapes
raisins - same thing but dried
cooked chicken
pork - due to worm which can be passed even if the meat is cooked :o
Mine loved bananas and would pick raspberries from the canes ........ cabbage, carrots, cauliflower, tinned sweetcorn all went down without argument; as did jam donuts ;D
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Same here, mine loved bananas. If you were peeling one in the kitchen, she could hear it all the way from the front of the house and she would come running. She also loved carrots, broccoli (just a bit..gave her gas lol), apples (peeled), watermelon, but no citrus like oranges or tangerines, too acidic and she would spit it out.
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A friend's boxer would drool for oranges :-X :sick02: ;D
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Some one I know, gives their dog our chocolate, in particular Mars bars. ::)
I’ve told them they shouldn’t, all they say is, it hasn’t caused a problem yet! 😱🤷🏼♀️🤷🏼♀️
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l know raisins and chocolate are poisonous but they aren't things I would expect to be poisonous. Rotting placenta (I pick up the ones I can find so these have been buried) and now the pile of sugar beet in the yard for the sheep seem to be irresistible. Is it any pork or only raw? I hadn't heard that though of course humans can get tape worms from pork that hasn't been properly cooked so maybe dogs too.
CC I wonder if he just wants a captive market for his dog food. Would it be enforceable in Canada?
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Pork is a no-no for lots of reasons. In theory too, there shouldn't be any wasted after slaughter other than the squeak ;-)
Do dogs bring down pigs in the wild to eat?
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Surely you can't be forced to be told what you feed your dog,I mean it's YOUR dog,not his,unless his so called contract is legally binding I'm sure he can't do much >:(
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I wouldn't touch the pups with a Barge Pole. My friend bought a cat and signed a contract to ensure that she had him chopped so that he didn't win against his parents ::). Me ......
I don't think that Contracts in the UK are legal unless the breeder/s draw up one with a Solicitor. I do feel that all breeders should take pups/dogs back at all ages. Circumstances alter in all walks of Life.
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Surely you can't be forced to be told what you feed your dog,I mean it's YOUR dog,not his,unless his so called contract is legally binding I'm sure he can't do much >:(
Hi Jaypo...you should have read the text reply I got back from the breeder. He was almost indignant that I questioned the raw diet and offered to do more research on my own. He breeds beautiful dogs but I wouldn't be able to deal with his attitude.
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Oh me neither C.C,think I'd have to walk away too
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I think wild dogs hunt smaller animals first.
So I think they’d definitely kill and eat small pigs and babies.
An adult pig is probably too big, unless it was injured or sick or something, then the dog would stand a better chance of killing it.
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:thankyou:
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l know raisins and chocolate are poisonous but they aren't things I would expect to be poisonous. Rotting placenta (I pick up the ones I can find so these have been buried) and now the pile of sugar beet in the yard for the sheep seem to be irresistible. Is it any pork or only raw? I hadn't heard that though of course humans can get tape worms from pork that hasn't been properly cooked so maybe dogs too.
CC I wonder if he just wants a captive market for his dog food. Would it be enforceable in Canada?
I don't know if he could sue if he found out that you were not feeding the raw diet, even though the contract stipulates it. I haven't read it. As Jaypo said, once the dog is sold it's not his anymore. He would be pissed, that's for sure.
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In the UK it is unlikely that a case would reach Court, unless the Contract was drawn up by an independent solicitor. Our Courts are way behind due to C-19 anyway ::)
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I wouldn't give a stuff if he got ticked off or not,I've never heard of such a thing happening in the U.K.,say for instance you moved house? Didn't tell him? How would he know THEN if you were feeding the dog HIS food,it's a ridiculous stipulation & sounds like a huge con to me. Would you consider a golden mix cc?
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I would be reporting him to the Local Authority who are concerned about breeding 'behind closed doors' - in England 1 has to register more than 2 breeding bitches with the LA so that they can do a look-C to make sure that the premises is suitable, that the breeder is registered for tax etc.. It don't always happen here though >:(
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I wouldn't give a stuff if he got ticked off or not,I've never heard of such a thing happening in the U.K.,say for instance you moved house? Didn't tell him? How would he know THEN if you were feeding the dog HIS food,it's a ridiculous stipulation & sounds like a huge con to me. Would you consider a golden mix cc?
Apparantly he is a very well-respected breeder and is an upstanding member of the Canadian Kennel Club. He's not out to scam anyone, he does care deeply for his dogs. He is too aggressive with those, at least me anyway, that don't feel a raw diet is necessary.
I would consider a mix, like a Golden Doodle.
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Well if the Canadian Kennel Club are as good as the one in the UK :-X >:(
Means not a lot! I could go on but that's a meander too far :D
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Aww golden doodles are lovely but if anything like here in the U.K.,you'll probably be as much money for one of them as a pure bred.
Like clkd, I can't say I respect the K.C well,not the U.K. one at least
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NEVER PORK! Nor shellfish!!!
What's he trying to do, poison his stock 'cos at the end of the day, that's what it appears 2B: money making with control. I wouldn't touch his pups with a barge pole ........ not because I wouldn't love one but I couldn't put up with such domineering behaviour.
Let us know what you DD is told, though do be aware that the Vet mayB tied into a Commercial Pet Food Contract ;-). Not that I would particularly listen to what he/she might suggest, as there are pros and cons to any diet and convenience is probably what people need.
So dd came back from her placement today and said she had asked our vet about the raw diet and that spawned a rant on his part lol. His main beefs (no pun intended) were that he hasn't read any scientific proof that it's better, dogs tend to get more obese, and it's nutritionally incomplete. He would not recommend any of his patients be put on a raw diet. Pretty much what I expected he would say.
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How does he know raw food is nutritionally incomplete ;D and I would like to see his research on dogs putting on weight through eating what comes naturally ::) - what does he sell in his Surgery I wonder?
'natural' food probably ;)
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He sounds like a right clown. 😆
They get more obese on a raw diet?
It depends how much you give them. Feed anyone or anything lots of food, they’re sure to get fat.
My sons dog was fed a raw diet, was as trim and fit as could be, ( the dog, not my son) , if he was human, he’d look like a chippendale, ;D he moved in with his girlfriend and her dog, who wasn’t fed raw.
As time went by, my son realised his dog was getting really fat, but couldn’t understand why. He had measured amounts of food everyday. 🤔🤔🤔
One day they came back from shopping, which, on this occasion they both went. Normally, it was just his girlfriend who went whilst my son was at work, ...on opening the kitchen door, they were greeted with kibble, all over the floor, ....whilst they were out, both dogs had managed to get into the pantry, and knocked all the bagged food over which was his girlfriend’s dogs food, and were munching away on it. ;D .......his girlfriend then admitted, they were always doing it. .....which is why, his dog was so fat! ;D ;D She’d never told him before, ;D .....mystery solved! ...he wasn’t best pleased is all I’ll say! ;D ;D
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That's reminded me: We had a sack of 'shapes' biscuits, including the charcoal ones. She had 3 in the morning B4 her walk, 2 at night B4 bed. However: we came home earlier than expected one evening to find her with nose in the sack: she had made a hole so that she could reach a single biscuit ........ what she would have done when the layer went down, we never found out ;D.
There's a lot of 'rubbish' in commercial dog foods: fillers to increase profits >:( ;).
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I would never buy any of that chum stuff or anything by purina,like you say clkd it's bulked up and the wet food is half water,very little nutrients,the stuff I buy for the little dogs is 90% meat but costly,guess you get what you pay for
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My Gran used to cook mince and potatoes for her dogs. A bit sloppy but they loved it.
My cat was allergic to 'Felix' but I didn't realise until 3 weeks B4 she died :'(
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Haha, I do enough bleedin cooking for humans,not starting for the dogs ;D
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1 makes 'extras' and anything the kids left over went into the bowls.
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One diet that I will stop using is grain-free. Apparently, the lentils and peas they use to substitute for the grains inhibit the absorption of taurine, which can lead to heart problems in certain breeds. My friend's dog developed a heart issue while on grain feed food and had to see a veterinary cardiologist (very expensive) and was put on taurine supplement therapy. The dog is 9 now and is doing quite well for a senior dog, she has been on Purina Pro Plan (recommended by the cardiologist) for 3 years.
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In the wild dogs would eat:
freshly caught meat which may well include grasses/wheat as most prey will be deer, sheep, rabbits, hares etc. which graze
= gnawing on all sizes of bone which means marrow as well as breaking pieces of fur
they will cache what they can't eat, to dig up later when it's nicely 'matured' ;D
because the gut will be stuffed, they sleep between meals which may be 2-3 days if they fail to catch = slim animals
dogs chew grasses as a gut cleanser and to clean teeth - my cocker loved the really stiff coarse reedy grass
they will drink muddy puddles as well as fresh water
there are no 'fillers' in their grub but because it's mainly meat, the gut will absorb or sick up anything that isn't required
pet dogs are quite simply, spoiled! and owners taken in by commercial pet food companies
It really is a matter of the breed of dog and convenience feeding. Raw can be messy and takes more organisational skills than opening a tin/sack.
Lifestyle and environment plays a huge part in how owners decide to feed their pets
Mine was fed on various canned products, based on meat. Plus 'bakers' meaty chunks or 'complete' when out walking, or other dried products. Easier to feed when walking than opening a smelly can! Lots of raw veg and she helped herself to raspberries etc. in our garden. Peas and sweetcorn would 'go straight through'!
Lions: What part of the body do animals eat first?
Organ meat is the first to be eaten. Except in rare cases, all significant pieces of muscles are eaten. Ribs are typically eaten, bones are often partially consumed, and nearly all the hide is commonly eaten. Even the muscles that make up the lining of the stomach are eaten.
If a dog is fed well and has plenty of exercise in order to burn off what it eats, it will stay healthy. When we took ours on holiday to the Lake District we walked almost all day. By Wed my cocker would be hungry in the night, do less poo on a walk and sleep heavier. Because she was using up energy .......... by the end of the week when we stopped the car she would lift her head as if to say "not another walk?" and if it was for shopping she wouldn't move ......... she always went on the next walk though ;)
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Dogs poo tells you a lot about what’s going on with them actually. 🤢
Not nice, but true.
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Yep. Every morning I would check and during the day ......... one checks a baby's nappy, dog poo is far easier ;). Dogs fed raw pass very little, in fact as a child, all dog poo was white and chalky.
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The diet they get in the wild is not necessarily ideal. They eat what they can get and may well be short of vitamins and minerals, there's a big difference between what will keep them alive and what they'd get in a perfect world. They all have worms and most will have ticks and/or lice.
A raw diet is just uncooked, it can be either balanced or unbalanced. Prepared food is more likely to be balanced but may well include things you'd rather not feed. Who knew farmers were feeding calves on brains dredged up from Ganges? Certainly the farmers didn't know, the bag just says x% protein.
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Is that what it was ? Certified by who I wonder? Cheap = cheap?
Getting rid of worms is why dogs often eat grass. Our cat came home from the farm at 11 weeks full of 'em. YUK ;D
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Brains from the Ganges? 🤢🤮 whose brains? Do we know? :sick02:
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Not mine ;D
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It was supposed to be animal bones. Only there are quite a lot of human ones there too. I don't think the theory has been proven but it might be something that's impossible to prove one way or the other.
https://m.rediff.com/news/2005/sep/02cow.htm
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But why drag the Ganges ....... it's a sacred river :-\