Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: KarineT on October 18, 2020, 04:18:52 PM
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Hi Everyone,
I think a lot of you won't agree with what J have to mention but I believe HRT doesn't let the body adjusts itself to a lower level of oestrogen & progesterone. I know that a number of women cannot function without HRT but it overrides what the natural hormones are doing in the body and there really isn't any way to tell when the menopause has occurred. Also, when a woman decide to stop the symptoms, more often than not, come back causing, perhaps, a 'second menopause' . I am not on HRT and I'm just hoping that I will never need it. I hope that things will settle once I've reached the menopause. So far, I haven't had a period since January this year and I think that I'm well on the way to reaching the menopause.
Karine
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One doesn't get a 2nd menopause which literally means the last monthly period. However, it's not often realised until at least 12 months after the last bleed that we have got there. Mine waxed and waned for years B4 I knew I was in menopause.
Ladies use HRT to ease debilitating peri-menopause symptoms, some will take it for Life. Not even worrying about where they might be in the menopause journey. Some stop the treatment, find that symptoms still overwhelm them so restart.
It's a personal choice. If one isn't having symptoms then there's no need to take HRT. I've not needed it apart from treatment for vaginal atrophy.
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Hi CLDK,
It is indeed a personal choice wheather to take it or not. So far my symptoms are low mood, anxiety, dizzyness, joint/muscle aches, waking up in the night from time to time but no hot flushes. I get chills instead. I have embarked on a CBT programme for the low mood and anxiety but I'm not sure if it will help. Negative thoughts enter my mind and I am learning to challenge them but it's hard work. It feels like my head is going to explode. As for HRT, can it be prescribed through the NHS for the rest of a woman's life or are they reluctant to let you have it for that amount of time? I've always wondered.
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Slightly sanctimonious post op.
Just because you don’t want it doesn’t make you a hero.
It’s not weak to get medical help to get through the menopause.
Some women sail through it others don’t.
And yes, some women will stay on it for life.
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I'm not saying that I can rise above those who need to take HRT. I, myself, have got issues with the menopause, mainly on the emotional side of things and it's not fun every day. I'm just hoping that I will sail though the menopause naturally, that eventually things will settle and I won't need HRT as I don't want to depend on it for rest of my life. Menopause symptoms cannot be a forever thing. There's no way the body will never adjust itself to a lower level of oestrogen and progesterone as a decline in these hormones is inevitable and natural.
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Your list of symptoms are typical of peri-menopause. As oestrogen levels drop so muscles may become lax = aches and pains. The body may become dry inside and out :o: skin, vagina, nostrils, deep in the ears, scalp ........
I think it's about how much symptoms impact on a lady's life . If pain relief eases aches and pains that's fine. Vaginal atrophy can be eased with appropriate localised treatments.
We have the access of choice and yes, HRT can be used for Life.
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Why do think of menopause so differently to other medical conditions? If you had cancer I assume you'd have treatment, if you were deficient in vit d or b12 you'd take what the doctor prescribed. Yet when you're deficient in oestrogen you don't want replacement oestrogen? Personally I don't see the point in suffering when you don't have to.
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It's the low mood and anxiety that bother me. I am not entirely sure if HRT can help with that. Also, on here, some ladies have issues with Utrogestan as it can lower the mood significantly. We can't compare the menopause with cancer, cancer is an illness that is often life threatening, menopause is not an illness. That's a natural phenomenon that every woman, who had a reproductive cycle, has to go through but, unfortunately, it's not symptomless for the majority of women.
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If a woman gets symptoms when she stops taking HRT she would still have been having those symptoms at that point in her life had she taken HRT or not. You need to go and look at Dr Louise Newson’s website to get the facts instead of making it up yourself.
Menopause is not an illness in itself and many women manage without any “help”, I don’t particularly like it being compared to an awful disease like cancer. Menopause is a natural and normal thing that every woman has to go through - cancer is not!
HOWEVER - the symptoms can certainly feel like a crippling illness, I myself am really struggling at the moment with the physical symptoms of peri which in turn is causing huge anxiety. If there is something that can help me through this that is “safe” (and given my age hrt is safe). Yes it probably would mask what is going on in my body and I say say bloody good cos what’s going on is crap!!
As for things like cbt and antidepressants if they work for you then great but personally I prefer to treat the cause not the symptoms. Cbt and other therapies that are designed to treat mental health problems are not necessarily going to work when the cause is completely physical.
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I am still in shock at how ill both mentally and physically the menopause has made me, I never imagined it could make you so very ill. It is an individual experience, everyone I know is experiencing it differently and to varying degree’s of severity.
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Agree with Floo36. It has come as a massive shock to me too. I had no issues during peri. Managed the menopause itself with diet, healthy lifestyle and supplements. I refused HRT as I felt I should manage it "naturally", thinking that once the flushes were gone my body would settle and that if I looked after myself I'd be fine.
Then (a couple of years post Meno) the reality of my post menopausal life hit me. I went from being an active, healthy, young woman to feeling like I was 100 virtually overnight. Genitourinary issues, crippling joint pain, osteopenia, insomnia and many other niggling issues. All of this in spite of leading a healthy lifestyle, exercise, doing all the right things.
If I'd known then what my life would be like now, I'd have started HRT a few years ago.
I have a friend who's older than me who has had no issues setting into post menopausal life. It's the luck of the draw I guess
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As someone who has suffered from menopausal depression and anxiety so badly I've taken two overdoses, my feeling is that I'll take whatever alleviates these symptoms, whether HRT or drugs. I've found that HRT helps with the depression but not the anxiety, so I've ended up on ADs for that. I do agree though that talking therapies like CBT don't really help with this - it's a chemical imbalance and no amount of talking changes that, in fact I've just ended up feeling frustrated and patronised, because therapists tend to be so focussed on there being a psychological cause they find it very hard to take the hormonal issue into account.
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It's tricky isn't it. I rocked up here (to these forums) after I'd been on HRT for a bit. My life was going seriously haywire. I was stressed out of my mind.
Before HRT I'd had the usual ups and downs, aches and pains. I decided to try it because my whole body hurt all the time and I thought I was experiencing early onset dementia. The difference in those first few months was amazing. I actually had a functional memory. Endless agony abated. And I got on with life, more energy, better skin, more like the old me.
^^ My issue was that the old me was the problem in the first place. I was constantly over extending myself. Never left any space for R&R. Had sat in an office / studio for years on end and allowed my body to atrophy.
So I did a weird thing. I stopped taking the HRT. I was fully expecting everything to come flooding back. And sure enough, some of it did. My memory is, once again, shot to pieces, like bad on a scale that I didn't even think was possible. Hot flushes, check. Painful joints, check. Rollercoaster emotions, check. Wanting to die, yeah, some days it was (occasionally is) shit.
I saw a herbalist, who took an actual clinical history (90 mins of chatting) and prescribed me treatment. Two weeks later, the hot flushes went away, along with this almost volcanic heat I'd always gotten in my head when I was upset > angry. I started being able to sleep properly. I can't tell you what a relief that finally was. And I began seeing a therapist, every week, long term, I'm now on my 16th month. Don't ask me why, but I hadn't realised that my son being born with a life threatening and life limiting condition had produced levels of trauma in me that were absolutely unmanageable. He's 27 now. I have OCD. I get easily overwhelmed. I'm learning to say 'No'. Turns out I'm rubbish at this. My trauma therapy has taught me that I'm not broken, and so I don't need fixing, instead I have to figure stuff out ...
Now I take hours every week for R&R - moods are a lot better.
I did couch to 5k - speedy walking, not running for me, no more aches and pains, much fitter and moods are a lot better.
I took the decision to completely change careers - I don't want to sit in an office for the next 15 years of my life, so I'm retraining to be a history teacher.
I bought myself a brand new motorbike and learned how to ride it, passing my theory test last week and looking forward to my practical next year.
^^ This is for me, and for now. It might change. That will depend on how I feel. HRT wasn't a good thing, probably because I wasn't in a good place, but that doesn't mean it'll never be a good thing.
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So HRT is not a miracle cure and it does not work for everyone. I will never be able to understand why the menopause is a lot more that just the end of your reproductive cycle and hot flushes. Now I realise that having a hard with it or not is the luck of the draw but it's really not fair on those who are suffering. I believe that I'm peri as, although I haven't had a period since January this year and I turned 50 this month, I haven't reached the 12 months without a period yet. If CBT does not work, how come it can help someone who has depression? Do you think emotional issues are caused by just hormones? If so, it's terrible but it cannot possibly last forever otherwise it's like mental torture. When I was still having my periods, I was having emotional issues but the mood would lift much quicker.
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Cbt doesn’t “cure” depression. It gives you coping strategies so you can manage the negative thoughts and therefore feel more able to cope. And it doesn’t work for everyone - it was next to useless for me.
Depression as a mental illness and is a chemical imbalance in your brain - the kind of depression/anxiety caused by the menopause is down to a dificiency in sex hormones (mainly oestrogen) so the two things are not the same. However, menopausal symptoms can be bad enough to cause depression/anxiety (the chemical imbalance type) - I’m still trying to figure out which mine is!
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Hi Karine
I remember you from a discussion I started previously. My wife is the same age and has been period free for the same time as you (literally - on the money!). She had been reluctant to take HRT for years (7 years of suffering TERRIBLY - we're talking job ending, relationship straining, awful physical effects etc) as she was terrified that if she took it and then stopped, she would go "back to square one". It was the flushes that changed her mind eventually - after yet another 2 consecutive days (every week) of being bed ridden due to excessive flushes and sweats, she decided to give it a go. The longer she went period free, the more the flushes increased. We had a consultation with a great GP who agreed to prescribe her some patches (the lowest risk form of it). They reduced her flushes and sweats within days. Honestly. I know you haven't had a hot flush yet and I hope that you don't, but the chances are, I'm afraid, that you eventually will and it may be at that point that you change your mind about HRT. The health benefits in a woman of your age massively outweigh the risks (obviously unless you're severely overweight/smoke/history of cancer in the family etc). I completely agree with you that HRT will "stop" the body from adjusting itself to lower levels of our hormones - and we were absolutely desperate to get through this without HRT, but when it came down to it, her quality of life was SO poor that it seemed the only option. We had tried various regimes of supplements etc for 6 years - managed to get her hair to stop falling out but apart from that it just wasn't cutting it (although god knows how worse she may have felt without all of her vitamins).
Yes - the decline in hormones is a natural thing, but remember that back in the day, women would usually die not long after menopause! We're now living for longer and taking some hormones will just (hopefully) ensure that we do so whilst feeling well and healthy.
It is such a personal journey and I genuinely hope that you start to feel better really soon without the need to take something that concerns you so much. The decision to go on HRT is so massive and for a lot of women.
I wish you all the very best :) :)
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Also women would be pregnant more often so hormones would be performing 'naturally' instead of gaps between babies. The woman is after all designed for regular pregnancies as well as breast feeding so the body was protected differently.
Now there is choice as well as women choosing not to have babies so early .......... which will impact on overall health.
Some don't require HRT, others benefit. It can be to ease symptoms until, or used for ever.
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Hi GetStuffedPeri,
So your wife is probably still peri like me. I have to wait and see what happens comes January. If I don't get a period before then, then that will mean that I've reached the menopause unless my ovaries have a last fling and I get another one. I did a test called Menocheck last February and this was just afterI my final menstrual period (maybe). The test revealed that my ovarian reserve was quite low. Maybe this test was accurate enough which means that I will reach the menopause sooner rather than later. I was told that if the ovarian reserve is low, this means that the menopause is not far away. Now after what you've told me, I'm concerned that that things might get worse for me but I do hope that this won't be the case. If your wife had to give up work because of this, it terrible and I'm sorry to hear that the menopause can cause do many issues. If I couldn't go to work anymore I would be severely affected like most of us. Ufortunately, I don't think the welfare system recognise menopause-related stress as a disability. Not being able to work because of it is quite serious to me. I hope your wife gets on with the HRT though.
Thanks
Karine
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Paz23, how long did you do CBT for? Did you go privately or was it on the NHS? What made you decide to do it? Do you have a tendency to think negative? Why do you think it didn't work? In my own case I had a terrible childhood and the memory might be embedded in my subconscious mind adding to this hormonal rubbish. I do have a tendency to think negative though. Because of my environment, I've never really thought that there's always a thinking alternative.
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Menopause symptoms cannot be a forever thing. There's no way the body will never adjust itself to a lower level of oestrogen and progesterone as a decline in these hormones is inevitable and natural.
Yes a decline is these hormones is inevitable and natural. But menopause symptoms can indeed be a forever thing. Vaginal atrophy does not improve on its own and can lead to health problems that go beyond the sexual. Osteoporosis is progressive and a leading cause of death among elderly women. I know 80 year olds who still get hot flashes. The body "adjusting itself" to a lower level of oestrogen and progesterone isn't really saying anything. The body adjusts itself as it will, but the results are not always worth tolerating.
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Unfortunately true & well said cityrat.
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Cityrat, I see what you're saying but surely, it cannot possibly be true for every single woman on the planet. If some of us are not on HRT that doesn't mean that we are all going to get horrible diseases and die from them.
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Cityrat, I see what you're saying but surely, it cannot possibly be true for every single woman on the planet. If some of us are not on HRT that doesn't mean that we are all going to get horrible diseases and die from them.
Yes, of course. It is absolutely true that every woman is different and has a different experience and a different way of putting that experience in context. That's why this whole endeavor is so frustrating. It's also why it's so unfair to mandate or pronounce that one strategy or another is the one right one. It's also why it's such a shame when actual doctors tell women things like HRT is bad, you shan't have it or you must go off it, or, conversely, when they push this or that pill or treatment on women without providing a background of information and options. Knowledge is empowerment.
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"Hear hear" cityrat - both your posts.
Hurdity x
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Hello ladies.
I take the point that many women do without HRT and feel well however how many actually feel awful and accept it?
I like the idea that as soon as we reach post menopause the body adjusts to the 'new normal' and life goes on as before but unfortunately that hasn't been my experience. My symptoms became much worse three years after my last period.
I have recently experimented with coming off HRT and some symptoms have returned, indeed my tearfulness is now more troublesome than ever. If I could be sure that this is another phase that will pass I may be able to battle through it but if this is infact my 'new normal' and as good as it's going to get then I may want to try HRT again!
Take care ladies.
K.
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Kathleen, that's terrible and it's not fair that you're feeling worse 3 years post menopause. It sounds like depression to me. The trouble is much worse when you still have to go to work as it will almost certainly add to the stress. Were you having these issues during your menstrual years? I always had a hormonal imbalance and would feel tearful around my periods. Have you had your thyroid checked? Sometimes thyroid problems can mimick menopausal symptoms.
I do hope that this won't happen to me and that I will feel better post meno.
Karine
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Hello Karine T.
It gets worse because I am 64 and ten years post meno!
I didn't really notice peri meno and my symptoms began when my periods stopped. I don't work and my children had left home so I battled through for three years before starting HRT and an AD. I still take the AD but came off HRT sixteen months ago. At the end of last year I had Glandular Fever and was then diagnosed with Hashimoto's Thyroiditis and now take Levothyroxine daily.
During my menstruating years I only noticed tender breasts before a period but as soon as I started bleeding I felt calmer so perhaps there was some tension there. I have had two children and never experienced post natal depression.
This is a bit of a sorry tale unfortunately and I don't want it to depress you. We are all different and your meno journey will be unique to you.
Incidentally I have just read an article by Meg Matthews who has her own menopause website. She says that when her menopause started she felt like a box of frogs, wasn't sleeping, was angry a lot and crying all the time. Someone suggested she was menopausal so she went to her GP and began HRT.
I hope all this helps in some way and wishing you well.
K.
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I suppose your health condition doesn't help either. At the moment, I don't have any health issues, I think. It's just this menopause thing. I haven't had a period since January this year and, theoretically I should be post meno in January 2021 so from that point I will see if things get better or worse.
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Hi Karine, I understand & respect that you prefer not to try HRT & really hope, as you say you do, that you will feel better postmenopause. Unfortunately, in common with Kathleen & many other women, I didn't. I waited until several years postmenopause before starting HRT when symptoms were still showing no sign of stopping. They were not as extreme as in the worst years of perimenopause, but QOL was still poor. By then more than a decade of my life had effectively been lost to menopause & I felt I'd wasted too much time waiting & hoping for improvement. HRT has not been a panacea for me, but I'm better with it than without.
Your comment to Kathleen above that's terrible and it's not fair that you're feeling worse 3 years post menopause. It sounds like depression to me
made me wonder whether you're not aware that depression & low mood can be a biochemical consequence of hormone fluctuation & deficiency at menopause.
https://www.newsonhealth.co.uk/resources/podcasts/menopause-depression-with-gp-menopause-expert-dr-rebecca-lewis
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Wensong, if the brain cannot cope with a lower level of oestrogen, I know that it has oestrogen receptors, then it's bad news. I've read somewhere that menopause can, indeed, trigger depression but it needs not be permanent. Before puberty, when the body didn't produce any oestrogen, there were no issues due to the lack of it so why is it different with menopause? Is it because the body relied on it for so long from the time the ovaries started producing it? I really don't want to suffer permanently with anxiety & low mood and I really hope that things will improve once I'm post meno. Someone on this forum mentioned that she started feeling better after her last period. I guess everyone's different and it"s the luck of draw but I need to remain positive.
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Hi
Interesting thread. I'm in the same camp as Kathleen. I was blissfully unaware what peromenopause was, apart from my periods being more erratic. My libido sky rocketed though (bonus). Menopause came and went, and I thought I'd cone through unscathed. Two years post meno, and it all hit me, joints, skin problems, super high anxiety, gatro problems, bladder weakness etc etc. At the start I was adamant that I would not be using HRT, but eventually something had to give. HRT hasn't made everything disappear unfortunately, but I think its helped a bit.
Jeepers xx
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Hello again ladies.
Jeepers - we do sound very similar. Perhaps some women find that their hormone levels reduce gradually which helps their body to adjust whereas for some of us it hits us like a train lol.
Wrensong - thank you so much for the link. My trusty menopause book states that suffering symptoms, especially the emotional ones can easily lead to actual depression which is no great surprise I suppose.
KarineT - I understand that you want to remain positive and many women get through this time in their lives without any problems. Others suffer for a while and then they are okay. Perhaps some women simply have more oestrogen receptors than others so that oestrogen withdrawal, which is what the menopause is, has more of an impact on them?
Wishing you well ladies.
K.
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Thanks everyone for reading my post. It's good when things like this can be shared. Should the situation get worse, of course, I would have no alternative but to resort to HRT. My reluctance is because the progesterone part can cause withdrawal bleeding. Do all progesterone hormones do that? I understand that there are two types of HRT. One for the over 50s and for women who are younger. Is that right? Also, I often read people referring to conti and sequi, presumably it's continuous and sequential. Which age group is each form for? Progesterone (Utrogestan), I think, the only one provided by the NHS, can cause mood issues, as I've found out on this forum and I"m trying to minimise this. I believe that there are HRT alternatives but they are private and cost a fortune so they are not for everyone. And, of course, there is the breast cancer issue that worries me. Finally, If I start HRT, when will I be able to stop, if at all? There's no certainty with all of this and it's frustrating.
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Karine,
Before puberty, when the body didn't produce any oestrogen, there were no issues due to the lack of it so why is it different with menopause? Is it because the body relied on it for so long from the time the ovaries started producing it?
I can't answer your questions I'm afraid, but I think it's good that you are trying to stay positive about the future & with any luck you will be one of the lucky women who do feel pretty well postmenopause. For some of us though, unfortunately it doesn't seem to be a question of if we wait long enough our bodies will reset. We will be living in a hormone deficient state for our remaining years & we have to make choices about how to address that situation if the consequences for us as individuals affect QOL too badly. I don't think anyone in their right mind takes the HRT decision lightly, but for some of us there comes a point when it feels the best thing we can do.
My Mum suffered from depression & anxiety for many years before she passed away from breast cancer in her 70s, more than 20 years ago. She was postmenopause at just 46. To my knowledge no-one ever suggested her poor mental health might be related to menopause & she was never on HRT. It saddens me to think that had someone made that connection it might have made her latter 3 decades so much easier, happier & more fulfilled. Her antidepressants & medication for anxiety were pretty inadequate & she suffered greatly, especially from a sense that no-one understood how unwell she was. How much better placed we are now that menopause is becoming less of a taboo & information is more accessible to us all. The cliche knowledge is power was surely never truer than it is for menopausal women?
You've said you have no other health conditions, I think, so this seems to bode well for your chances of feeling better emotionally once hormone levels plateau. Stay positive, but please don't let your malaise continue longer than it has to for want of trying a different approach that may make all the difference.
Kathleen, you're very welcome! I have followed your story on the forum for some years & my heart goes out to you.
Wx
P.S. Karine - sorry you were posting again while I was. No time to write more now, but I'm sure someone else will come along to answer your latest questions.
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Wrensong, thanks for your reply. That's absolutely awful what your mum went through! Nobody knows what it's like unless it happens to them. If a depletion in oestrogen has the capacity to wreck havoc like this and make someone's life a misery then that's really, really bad. Unfortunately, doctors don't seem to recognise the link between depression and the menopause.
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Hello again ladies.
KarineT - Perhaps your best strategy is to see how you feel but keep things under review regarding HRT in the future.
Wrensong - thank you for your very kind words, much appreciated.
Wishing you both well.
K.