Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Patchsmama on June 22, 2020, 09:24:42 PM
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Hi Everyone
Almost 6 years ago I had a surgical menopause after a TAH & BSO for a borderline ovarian tumour (stage 1). I chose to not have HRT (I was 50 at the time) and have carried on through the hot flushes, anxiety, tiredness and mood swings. It's not been pleasant at times.
Over the past year, I've had a few UTIs and last week started with increased vaginal dryness, feeling like I need a wee but not like it is another UTI. I'm guessing it's VA :-( I saw my GP about 4 months ago after a UTI and we discussed vaginal oestrogen (Vagifem) and he assured me that it is completely safe with no risks whatsoever. I get so anxious about health and wouldn't want to take something if I spent the whole time worrying about whether it was causing something.
Has anyone been in the same situation? Does anyone know exactly how safe it is? Any help would be gratefully received. I'm currently using Vagisil Prohydrate (GP also prescribed Replens but I read the side effects of that and haven't used it - yes, I am that bad!!) but the problem is still there and it says it can be used only once every 3 days. I've also ordered some Yes VM today to try.
Thanks so much :-)
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Hi Patchsmama
:welcomemm:
Nothing is 100% safe eg life!
It's as safe as it can be. The amount of oestrogen you get into the bloodstream is absolutely minute compared with full HRT. Even though there are no very long term studies into its use , because of this (tiny dose) it is thought to be associated with minimal risk. The only area where people have expressed concern is the potential effect on the uterus (even though the dose is so small) but you don't have one so zero risk there! VA does not go away so I would get some sort of vaginal oestrogen asap . There are several others besides vagifem listed here:
https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/dryness.php
Also, is there any reason why you are not trying HRT? There really is no need to suffer those symptoms especially if you;ve had them since age 50. Post-menopause is for the rest of your life and if you are still getting symptoms then you may be one woman for whom these don't stop for many years (although they may stop next year!). You will also be giving your bones and heart extra protection but better started sooner than later as ideally it should be started within 5 years max 10 of menopause for max benefit.
Hurdity x
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Morning! Quality of Life. 4 me it was like razor blades :o. up there. After several urine infection-type symptoms my GP recognised the signs and prescribed 'ovestin'. Once you've done the 2 weeks use every night and you drop 'vagifem' down as recommended, it's a matter of managing symptoms. When mine niggle I find 'nurofen' 3 times a day really eases that "need to pee" feeling.
Let us know how you get on.
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Morning, ladies. Thanks so much for replying. I've just taken a sample into the GPs to get dipsticked. If there's nothing on it, I will cash in the prescription for Vagifem that I've had sitting in my drawer for a couple of months. Didn't help that the receptionist challenged me as to what GP had asked for the sample, told me there wasn't enough (I know there was as I'm an ex nurse and you need only a tiny amount for the dipstick), then huffed at me. Felt very tearful when I left.
Thanks so much again. I really hope life can improve. I think with all the Covid-19 and lockdown it's all got a bit much 😔 xxx
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However: dipstick tests shows nowt. All samples need to go to a Lab. to be grown.
So get that prescription changed up and begin treatment this evening. ;-)
The idea for localised HRT is to plump up the vaginal tissues and increase lubrication and dryness certainly makes areas itch. Sore. Which aggravates the bladder.
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Hello Patchsmama and welcome to the forum.
My VA is fairly mild at the moment but I have found that liberal use of YesVM moisturiser has helped a lot.
There is a suggestion that diet may contribute to UTIs and you may want to look at the research on NutritionFacts.Org.
I am sorry to learn that you have had such a horrible time with your menopause. Your hysterectomy likely made this especially hard. May I ask how you have coped for six years without HRT? Have your symptoms resolved or are you still on the thick of it?
I'm sorry that I can't be of more help to you and I hope you feel better soon.
Take care and keep posting.
K.
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Hi Kathleen
Many thanks for answering and for your kind words. To be honest, I don't know how I've managed at times. I can't remember the last time I felt like myself, full of energy and really happy. I think the main problem is that the borderline tumour is at the back of my mind a lot of the time. It wasn't cancer but it completely shocked me and, when I get symptoms like this, I immediately think is it recurring. I was told that it was extremely unlikely that I'd have any further problems. However, the consultant gave me no advice about menopause whatsoever. When I asked about her before discharge, he said it wasn't absolutely necessary as I was not under 50.
My GP is very kind and helpful and gave me the option. As I'm petrified of anything triggering anything off, I just decided to try to put up with it. I think having been a nurse hasn't helped as I know too much! it's not been easy at all. I'm sleeping better now, weirdly facial oils seem to help but, now the hot weather is here, the hot flushes seem to be back too. I think the worst thing, until now, has been the feeling down and tearful and the anxiety. I never feel like socialising really (just as well at present!). We have a 16 year old son and it worries me that he?ll remember his mum as this worrying person who doesn't do much. Thankfully I have a very patient husband. We've not been able to do anything in the bedroom dept for months, it's just too painful, seemed to lead to UTIs and I'd imagine now would be impossible because of VA.
So sorry to go on!!! I know that I need the Vagifem (or more) really, it's just bringing myself to use it and to then not spend the whole time worrying about side effects 🙄.
So glad that yours seems under control. Long may it last!!! Xxx
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A little knowledge and all that: but listen up, we've been there and found treatment works ;-). Try it for 4 weeks and you can review. I think once symptoms are eased you will realise how badly you feel right now. Quality of Life for the whole family?
At 16 DS is old enough to learn about hormones ;-).
The Consultant is incorrect >:( - he needs a :kick:. HRT should be discussed WELL B4 any surgery is contemplated but it's an easy co-out.
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Hi Clkd
Thanks so much. Wish I could have taken you along with me to do the kicking up the ****!!! ;D You know that feeling when they can't get rid of you quick enough?
I have told DS it's my hormones causing this but I still don't think they really get what it's like. We see plenty of his hormones!!
I?ll keep you posted :thankyou: :thankyou:
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Hello again Patchsmama.
I completely understand the affects our children. Fortunately my daughter and son were older when my symptoms really kicked in but I still have regrets about how my menopause impacted them.
Men just don't get it do they? Simple creatures on the whole bless em. I am sure one of the reasons that my GP surgery is pro HRT is because the senior doctor's wife had the menopause from hell and it took a few goes to get her HRT right. At least that is what he told my neighbour at the golf club!
If your consultant had been more knowledgeable about HRT would you have felt more comfortable about trying it? When you have posted 10 times on this forum you will be able to email Dr Currie who is the Consultant who set up this site. Perhaps you could ask her how HRT would apply to your case specifically. You are certain to get a sympathetic and enlightened response from her.
Wishing you well and take care.
K.
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Hi again Kathleen
I really don't know. Probably not as I was so frightened. However, when I last spoke to my GP, he firmly said that Vagifem is the equivalent of taking two HRT tablets per year and is therefore, safe. If this is VA and does continue like this, I know I?ll have to go for it.
Oh that is useful to know re Dr Currie. Thank you 😊. Does that mean starting 10 threads or a total of 10 posts, like I'm doing now? Thanks again so much xxx
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Hello again Patchsmama.
I'm pleased that you have been reassured about the use of Vagifem. I am sure your order of Yes will be of benefit as well.
I think it's a total of ten posts before you can email Dr Currie but I could be wrong. Perhaps just try it now and the instructions should pop up on the site. Other ladies who have used the service may also be along soon to advise you.
Take care and please let us know how you get on.
K.
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Thanks again 😊
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Hiya Patchsmsmama.
I had surgical meno at 53 for an ovarian dermoid tumour. Because I was over 50 HRT wasnt discussed with me either. I had to bring it up. It was treated as though "you would be going through it soon anyway so it's just bringing it forward". It's not that simple I have learned.
Surgical meno differs to natural meno. In natural meno the ovaries continue to produce androgens which convert to estrogen . We have lost 50% of our testosterone. The sudden significant drop in this and estrogen can give rise to more severe symptoms.
That said. Systemic HRT is not enough to treat VA for some women even in natural meno. You mention that 3 times a week vagifem might not be enough but you will start with a loading dose for 2 weeks. Maybe 3 depending on severity and what your doc advises. The loading dose is important as it improves the tissues and then after that you may be able to move to maintenance dose.
you may find 3 times a week enough. Some women do others dont Might I suggest if you do to also use a ph balanced vaginal moisturiser in between.. I use "yes VM. " as it's natural and suits me. I cant say enough what awful stuff I found replens to be. I would avoid it.
Xxx
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Once you get your VA sorted there should be no reason why you can't have a sex life, my VA was severe, the only thing that gets in the way of that now is teens in the house ;D
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Haha!!! So glad to hear it Tinkerbell. Homeschooling is not conducive is it? 🤣
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Nor is this heat :sweatdrop: :bed:
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:steamed: :steamed:
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:sigh:
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Hi again Kathleen
I really don't know. Probably not as I was so frightened. However, when I last spoke to my GP, he firmly said that Vagifem is the equivalent of taking two HRT tablets per year and is therefore, safe. If this is VA and does continue like this, I know I?ll have to go for it.
Oh that is useful to know re Dr Currie. Thank you 😊. Does that mean starting 10 threads or a total of 10 posts, like I'm doing now? Thanks again so much xxx
You can consult Dr Currie at any time as far as I know as it's not connected with the forum and you don;t have to be a member in order to do so. The instructions are on the main website. The link is here: https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/contact-the-doctor.php it costs ?30.
The 10 posts thing is to be able to send private messages to other forum members.
Good luck!
Hurdity x
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Hello again ladies.
Hurdity - Thank you for posting. I confused sending PMs to other members with emailing Dr Currie. Hopefully Patchsmama will read your post and and get the right information.
Wishing you well and take care.
K.
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Thanks again ladies for the info. I had a call from the GP surgery yesterday. Dipstick was positive so they've sent the sample off. Told me to start antibiotics in the meantime......
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>sigh<. positive for which infection which won't show until the sample is grown, at least the GP has sent it away. ABs will certainly ease symptoms - let us know how you get on.
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Hi Everyone
Hope that everyone's well. I just thought I'd do a little update on what's happening here. So I took the antibiotics for a week but still wasn't convinced that I had a UTI. When I checked, the lab had thrown my sample away as they are apparently lab testing only ones which look like they might be infected!!
Two weeks later, I'm still not feeling right 'down there'. Today, it definitely felt more like a UTI. So I spoke to my GP on the phone who suggested another urine dipstick (which I did and it was normal) and tonight I'm finally starting Vagifem. I just hope it brings some relief as I feel miserable. After I've had a wee, it really stings and feels like I need to go again. Is this typical of VA? Of course, I'm worrying there's something else going on. I desperately want this to work. I have to take nightly for two weeks, then go to twice a week. Can anyone tell me how quickly it works, I'm guessing that you have to get 'loaded' up first.
Hope everyone else is doing well xxx
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I really feel for you. It can take ages for local oestrogen to work I'm sorry to say. I had that wee feeling on and off for months. It didn't really sting but it sure didn't feel right after a week. I hope someone else can advise about the stinging as I'm not sure about that. You have all my sympathy cos it's horrible. X
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Thank you SuzySunday. I appreciate your honesty. Feeling a bit sorry for myself tonight. Can I ask whether you’re sorted now? Xx
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I did feel more comfortable after a week of starting topical estrogen but as the weeks went on i got far more improvement.
Do be aware that for some two Vagifem a week is not enough.
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I meant after a week not a week. Yes things are much improved and I use ovestin alternate nights. It took up to a year to feel ok, but we are all different and maybe I am older than you, 62. I can enjoy sex again. But it's a constant worry for me, and having it for life is not great. At the time it was worse I felt really desperate, but I am so much better.
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Bless you. I totally understand. I had a dreadful night. Despite the urine dipstick being negative, I was in agony going to the loo and afterwards, so ended up taking antibiotics. Better this morning but still some symptoms.
I need some light at the end of the tunnel, this isn’t fair on anyone. I’m 56, used to be fit and enjoyed life. I really hope this isn’t going to be the way things are :'( xx
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I totally sympathize, was on patches for HRT for 8 months, everything brilliant, I improved down there, then 2 months ago switched to estrogen gel, omg :o I started having the worst bladder symptoms ever, I had intense pain one day followed by a constant urge to wee all the time, everything felt swollen up and I couldn't properly empty my bladder. It was so bad I couldn't leave the house :'(. Dr dipped urine and nothing on it, wouldn't even send sample to the lab. I was given 3 days antibiotics which improved it for 2 days, then bad again. I'm now on vagifem and I have an appointment in a week's time to go back on the Estraderm patches :'(. I'm only a few days into vagifem and still have the urge to go feeling. Think I would rather be in pain than have this, its lousy and is ruining my life.
Lillith. x
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That urge to go is awful. I didn't know what was wrong with me and really scared. It would sometimes be accompanied by a horrible feeling in my bowel ( sorry if tmi ). Sitting on the toilet feeling wretched then shuffling off to lie on the sofa with a hot water bottle. I kept drinking lots of water so when I had a wee there was something there. Everyone is different but I avoided alcohol, spicy food and hot baths. I had numerous urine tests all negative.
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Thank you SuzySunday. Do sympathise. Felt a lot better yesterday but needing to go more today and still getting some stinging towards the end when at the loo. Really hope these antibiotics are going to work xx
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Is your GP aware that sample which he requested a test on was thrown away. That is despicable, it is not up to a Technician 2 decide what might/not have infection until the sample is grown. I despair, I really do.
Get that 'vagifem' up there 4 the next 3-4 weeks! Do read the treads about bladder issues and vaginal atrophy which mimics urine infection-type symptoms really really well. Until you get the vaginal tissue plumped up with replacement oestrogen your need to pee will continue. ABs will ease those symptoms but ONLY oestrogen will solve the problem.
Do take an over the counter pain relief: I use 'nurofen' 2 tablets 3 times a day for 3 days which relieves those need to pee feelings.
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Thanks again CLKD I really appreciate your honesty and speaking from experience. I’ve felt really scared about this as to what’s going on. Day 3 of Vagifem tonight. It’s currently uncomfortable inserting the applicator at first which I’m guessing is also due to the atrophy :'(.
Regarding the discarded sample ..... I asked my GPand he said that unless the sample looks cloudy, the labs are throwing them as they are concentrating on covid pathology. As an ex-nurse, I find this terrible. When they’re telling people to only take antibiotics when necessary!!!
I really hope that things will start to feel better soon as I just want to live my life again xx
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Put the applicator in as far as it is comfy. Laying down to relax might help. Do you have a KY-jelly type preparation to use B4 the applicator?
Do take a pain relief regularly to ease the need2pee feeling. 4 me that gets worse if my bowel is mis-behaving :( i.e. slow transit.
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CLKD, apparently loads of NHS samples are discarded when the urine is mass tested. If the bacteria in them don't fit in the lab range indicated, something like 10,000/ml, they are binned without further testing. It's madness because any number of bacteria way under this amount can still cause a persistent low level infection as it beds into the bladder wall (biofilm).
Someone on here posted a video with a Dr Anderson she explains it all and she is trying to get the NHS testing changed as said so many women are left suffering for years. She does specialist urine testing, she doesn't discard samples and says women need long term antibiotics 6-12 months to cure the deep bedded bacterial infection.
Lillith.
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Lilith. Thank you, I saw some of that video. Quite shocking.
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Can I ask, if it okay to use Yes VM with applicator when using Vagifem? I don’t want to stop the Vagifem working in any way.
Woke up this morning and had a wee - painful again. So have had a few tears and now wondering if this is what life is going to be like. I remember mum being like this but, of course, it wasn’t really talked about in those days. Husband is at work all day today so just need to try to get through the day :-(.
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Get some pain relief and rest
4 me it was like razor blades :o up there :-\
How often do you use the 'yes'? I would use that in the morning and occasionally if necessary mid afternoon and Vagifem in the evening.
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I haven’t used it since before I started the Vagifem. It’s just like a UTI rather than anything else. Worst pain is as I’m coming to the end of a wee. On third day of antibiotics and usually I’d be feeling much better by now.
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Is it a sharp nip as the spincter stops the urine flow? When I have that I go all goosebumps at that point :-\ so up the ovestin and pain relief.
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Yes, I guess so. Then it lingers. I’ve just taken nurofen but don’t have Ovestin.
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YES VM irritated my bladder but I'm ok with YES WB, what suits one doesn't always suit another. When I used to have bladder problems, including a bladder prolapse, I'dI place the Vagifem low down, just inside targeting the bladder wall, this worked. Sometimes the fillers in Vagifem can also irritate the vulva, especially when placed low, always wash in just plain water, I wash in Cetraben.
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'vagifem' ......... same idea but delivered into the vagina differently ;-)
Take 'nurofen' regularly for 2 days. It should ease that nip.