Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: ElkWarning on December 29, 2019, 07:12:06 PM
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Bear with me a moment ...
So I work in psychiatry in a research setting, and one of the 'hot new things' is called 'the inflammation theory of depression'. Where I'm based it grew out of an observation that people who had hepatitis, treated with Interferon, tended to experience drug resistant depression. Quite a few of these folks would actually manage to beat the hep, clean up their lives, but then they'd kill themselves. It struck psychiatrists as odd. Why do that when everything was, essentially, fixed?
One of the things that they found was that Interferon causes inflammation, so they went forward on the basis that it might be the inflammation causing the drug resistant depression. We have an experiment running at the moment where people are injected with the typhoid vaccine (causes inflammation) and then their depressive tendencies are monitored (they temporarily show signs of depression until the vaccine has done its job).
Here's an article in Nature (reputable scientific journal) about it - https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-05261-3
Why am I mentioning it here? Because I keep reading about people who feel the anti depressants aren't working. Well, they wouldn't if you had drug resistant depression caused by inflammation (proved by the accidental Interferon 'experiment'). And then I read here that people have found relief taking anti histamine - which basically treats inflammation. On the side of this I'm vaguely aware that our muscular aches and pains are caused by inflammation, and this is part and parcel of the menopause.
What do you think?
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ElkWarning I wish I worked with you.
Yes you are totally correct and I think I should add that a lot of people kick the antidepressants and use slow release ibuprofen and find that works really well and of course it would it's an anti inflammatory med.My husband and ai are experimenting with this theory at the moment.
Fingers crossed in the next few years doctors will actually prescribe Anti inflammatory drugs instead of antidepressants.
People also find hay fever pills also calm anxiety.😀
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Hello ladies.
I've seen this cause of depression mentioned a few times in recent years.
There was also some research by
Oxford University concluding that people with chronic illnesses are often depressed and much like the person in the article my reaction was 'well, duh'. I've read that because inflammation usually only develops as a result of disease a state of depression is a way of keeping the sick individual inactive and isolated from others in the group. This is done to prevent the pathogen from spreading and infecting others. The problems occur when inflammation becomes constant.
It seems that reducing inflammation is a good place to start when trying to improve our physical and mental health .
Take care ladies.
K.
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Interesting. Is the cause of inflammation sourced?
Are the people in the current experiment suffering from depression long-term? Worth trying anti-infmallmotry medications if ADs don't work. Then the side effect of gut problems raises it's head ::). How long will the experiment last for, is it double-blind or will that come later?
Is the brain inflammed at all?
I get aches and pains which respond well to 'nurofen'. I don't notice that my depression, already treated with medication, eases at all as usually the 'nurofen' works within a couple of hours. It is known that chronic, uncontrolled pain can cause depression and anxiety as well as leading people to end their Lives.
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This is an interesting subject. You can have a C reactive protein blood test to detect inflammation and also have your ESR rate checked.
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:thankyou:
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You are welcome CLKD!
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Really interesting.
Penelope how is your experiment going and what exactly are you doing ?
How do I get hold if slow release Ibuprofen ? Is it different to the bog standard stuff you get from the chemist ?
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Hi pants it's called slow release ibuprofen 800mg it releases slow in your system over 8 hours.
Hay fever pills are also really good for anxiety and depression.
Anything to help bring down the inflammation in the body.
Just experiment and see how you feel or if after a few days it lifts.
I get the ibuprofen on prescription.
You often here people say they never felt better than when they were taking anti inflammatory meds for a sore back or something else.Well we can all have inflammation inside our bodies that we can't see.Just being over weight causes inflammation!
Good luck 😀
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Hi Elk, I have thought from the age of 26 that AD resistant depression comes from inflammation or some upset in the gut system.
The reason I came to that conclusion was that from the age of 2 to the age of 13 I suffered from recurrent tonsillitis which was treated with 2 weeks worth on antibiotics. I also had as a child scarletina, german measles, mumps, chicken pox. I got gingivitis in my gums and had really bad cold sores that used to spread across my chin! Urgh! It culminated at the age of 12 in getting mild rheumatic fever, and then they took my tonsils out and put grommits in my ears. Until then they told my parents I would "grow out of the tonsillitis" as they didn't believe in taking them out in the 60's (well my doctor didn't) but by the last 4/5 years I was on antibiotics for 2 weeks at a time or 5 times a year. But think what they say about overuse of antibiotics now?
It cured the tonsillitis obviously but by the time I had passed through puberty the depression and anxiety had set in at 14 and at 16 I had what was called my first "breakdown". I was started on the AD's and had them pretty much full time with a few 6 month breaks for 40 years. I was labelled with Chronic fatigue/ME at 26 and so it continued until I got my hormones sorted out during meno.
It was also interesting when they treated me for sepsis with bags and bags of intravenous antibiotics that for the first time in years my body was not sore somewhere. I have always sworn that my ongoing issues from puberty was due to the unresolved inflammation, permanent inflammatory response somewhere and chemical changes somewhere due to overuse of antibiotics.
I find your post really really interesting xx
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Very interesting post, I'm sure there's something in this. I've always been interested in nutrition which is part of the picture, as well as stress and overuse of antibiotics (all of which are to be avoided as much as possible). I've recently given up sugar and white bread and it's definitely made a positive difference to mood, as well as weight loss x
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Yes this makes total sense to me.
I don't often take Ibuprofen as my BP can be high (I'm on tabs) but when I do I always feel a short term sense of calm.
I also feel much better with gastric issues and mood if I stay off gluten/caffeine/sugar - all of which seem to ' hype' me up.
I am sure there is a reason yet to be revealed why some women sail through Meno and others struggle no matter what ' regime' they try. Inflammation could be it.
So sad these things have not been properly tested on a large scale as just from being on this site there seem so many similar stories and so much distress that could be avoided. I guess there is no commercial gain from ' change your diet' so it would have to be governments that put money into studying these things.
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Aye, very interesting.
I mean I know anecdotal evidence isn't held in massively high regard, but in the summer, because they don't mow the verges in Brighton any more, I found myself suffering from hay fever. I lived on antihistamines for a couple of weeks and what was weird was that my mood lifted. I don't have depression, instead I'm an anxiety monkey, but the world just became much less threatening. I didn't put 2 + 2 together.
Over xmas my husband pulled a couple of muscles in his back, and after three days he was in such a foul mood, really quite unpleasant, very irritable and mean. Once tanked up with brufen, the mood passed. Admitedly, this was because he was in lots less pain, but I don't think it was just the pain making him horrid ...
Interesting what Penelope says about experimenting, fingers crossed you get the results you're both after.
And, Kathleen, for me, I think maybe they don't even realise how widespread inflammation is. So, another anecdote, I asked to go on HRT because my muscles were hurting. It was a sports therapist who suggested the HRT. Apparently, my muscles, amongst other things, were inflammed.
CLKD, re: the source of inflammation. For the people with hep, the inflammation was caused by the drug used to treat it, Interferon. For the people currently participating in the study we have running here, the typhoid vaccine is used to cause the inflammation. They are what's known as 'sub clinical', i.e. healthy volunteers, so anyone with depression is screened out. It's not double blind, as it's important someone knows whether or not they've been vaccinated against typhoid (if they want to go on hols, for example), but the data acquisition is via both questionnaire and also MRI scan. It's the MRI that shows whether there's any inflammation. Obviously, if those with inflammation report no low mood, then the conclusion would be that there's not a connection.
I didn't know about the C reactive protein test. Very interesting.
LadyBT, if I read you right you seem to be saying that while you were being treated for inflammation you were kind of ok, but once those treatments stopped you started having difficulties? I mean it's just weird, because I literally Googled Oestrogen and inflammation and it came back saying yes, and this can be clearly seen as more women than men suffer from autoimmune diseases - MS, Fibro, Rheumatoid Arthritis, etc. Oddly, or perhaps not, it would seem that Progesterone is an anti-inflammatory, under certain specific conditions, but dose and timing of dose is absolutely crucial, for example, following brain injury.
I also agree re: nutrition. At the point I found out that it was the deadly nightshade family setting my guts off, I was able to eliminate and felt all over better. Also, I have multiple allergies and am often exposed. I wonder if I've spent my whole life a bit inflammed?
Something to ponder anyway.
Best
EK
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So interesting. I wonder how far back inflammation began to bother humans. The more food stuffs we introduced as we evolved? So we had more potential allergens around ...........
Wonder if native Tribes have allergies?
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Ah, that's an interesting question. So my intolerance to the deadly nightshade family, it's all from the Americas isn't it, even the potatoes. I just don't have the enzyme required to digest it, which is hardly surprising ...
As for inflammation related to allergies, like hay fever, another funny one, there's quite a bit of debate as to when hay fever first entered our lives. This is a kind of interesting read - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allergic_rhinitis
Happy new year, CLKD.
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Tnx. I began with allergic rhinitis after moving to Wales. Wetter than the Fens. I discovered years later that I am slightly sensitive to cat dander ........... once our cats passed over symptoms improved. Also if DH keeps the bedroom hoovered thoroughly I don't snuffle in the night ::)
Asthma and exceama 'go' together and can be inherited. I am sensitive to onions which I love ::). Mum developed a shell fish reaction in her mid-40s where she would develop breast lumps which had to be removed.
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Yes it is anecdotal and all said with hindsight Elk :) I think what I am saying is that as a child there was some underlying reason why I was prone to so many illnesses. As I understand it tonsilitisis is a strep infection and it was an alarmingly recurrent theme. I might suggest that it is probable that the other infections came out of a weakened immune system due to the tonsillitis. Oh and by the way if I makes any sense to any of you wonderful science people I was born to a mother with rheumatoid arthritis.
In my thinking once you move on from the fact I suffered from all this stuff, you get to how it was treated. So the tonsillitis was 2 weeks in bed on antibiotics. This happened 3/4/5 times a year until it culminated into the complete collapse into a bout of rheumatic fever. In hindsight I would say that the inflammatory response was no longer held at bay by the antibiotics or my own immune system (which I think was weakened by the antibiotics and not helped) into ever increasingly nasty infections.
The tonsils were taken out at age 13 so I was going through puberty and I reckon all those drugs for 11 years changed some chemical make up somewhere. Depression and anxiety set in soon after and continued. I was a pre-eclampsic in both pregnancies and had bad post natal depression. The AD's didn't work to solve the depression but just made me numb so I could live on a barely functioning basis. They made no difference to mood or pain, or anything at all.
The real light came on when I was taken into hospital with sepsis in March 17 and pumped full of drugs to kill whatever it was was causing it (funny enough they couldn't find out what caused it which was worrying?). When I came out my whole body was so much better and then I got my hrt right and also no aches pains and mood lifted most of the time. I'm not dancing everyday (I think too much damage has been done with 40 years of AD's and other drugs that didn't work) but I think this how the average person is supposed to feel - which is relatively well! My conclusion in hindsight is that the depression out of puberty was not "depression" but my problems from puberty diagnosed relatively along the way as chronic fatige/ME/Fibro/clinical depression etc etc is a faulty immune response combined with dodgy hormones. Seems to make sense to me bad period, poor pregnancy, drug resistant issues and then hey ho, give me oestrogen, testosterone and progesterone (but only in a form my body could tolerate - tried 6 kinds of hrt before I got it to work) and it seems my health is as it should be after all these years of desperation.
I wonder, did the massive amount of antibiotics over 6 weeks kill all infection wherever it was hiding all those years in my body and then combine with the hormones to recalibrate the system? I also wonder the hrt would have worked so well on their own without the massive wipeout of underlying infection or whatever was causing the inflammation.
Just a not 2 weeks at a time of antibiotics (in hindsight) was obviously not enough to kill once and for all any infections over the years and also no amount of anti-inflammatories controlled of killed off the immune response. When any tests on inflammatory response was done over the years they were always on the higher side of the normal range so no doctor ever gave it a second thought. There is one other interesting fact to throw in (to this rather long post and whether it makes difference or not to anyones' thoughts) but in 2016 I had a massive allergic reaction to one of my blood pressure meds despite having taken it for 3 years or more and was given massive doses of antihistamine and prednisolone intravenously and then in tablet form - I had the best month of my whole life EVER (it was so wonderful!!!) but then it went back to normal after that until now!
I am sure there is something to all of this but doctors have laughed when I have raised it? xx
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Interesting. Still interesting.
RA can occur with pregnancy. A friend was wheel-chair bound by the end of the 9 months until her child was nearly 2 years old. The condition then went away.
Another friend eats her way 'out' of diabetes. Whilst I was aware that it can be diet controlled, in winter she is completely well. When the weather heats up she has to B very careful of what she eats otherwise her blood sugars go haywire!
How much does immunisation contribute to all this? Like most things in human life, infections are 'natural'. Chemical intervention saves lives. However :-\. So much still to learn about the Humanbeans ............ ;)
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Nothing surprises me anymore.....
We humans are such complex beings. I am not sure what i think about the theory. Possible true for some. Inflammation woudl usually cuase some degree of pain/discomfort so maybe it is the constant pain that causes the low mood, rather than the inflammation itself. I know it probably isn;t true for me as when my CRP was 300 i didn;t feel any more or less depressed than when it was 0. I have suffered with anxiety and depression for the best part of 30 yrs. It had always responded to the SSRI's, until................meno kicked in, nothing seemed to shift it. Interestingly enough that was when my CRP came back as 0. The only thing that worked was the Oestrogen in combo with the SSRI.
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LadyBt I have just read your story and I must say read it with horror.You really need to ask the doctor on your next visit to do you a thyroid antibodies test!What you have had as a child is classic thyroid.
It's taken me 26 years to get the simple blood tes done because I had not heard of it and bingo it came back positive and explains why I have felt menopausal since I was a teenager.🌹
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Maybe that is the key Sgvhilts - oestrogen and SSRI's. Fancy your CRP coming back at 0 when it had been at some point 300?
Could support the theory that inflammation in the brain can be the source of depression?
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Yep it's quite horrific and I don't mention it very often except when it comes up on here and none of it made any sense at all until menopause..I just thought I was a sick person and that was my whole life and it would never change but sorry Penelope to have to tell you but whenever they have done thyroid tests they all come back within the "normal range". Having said that as far as I am aware in the UK unlike the USA or France I think they don't do the full range TS3/TS4 and all the others etc so the result is skewed. I have looked at the thyroid sites often over the years and the UK ones miss out important bits so if you are borderline it is easy to fall into the UK's "normal ranges". People who do have thyroid issues find this all the time. About 15 years ago I did have a doctor who thought outside the box for once and gave me low dose thyroxine meds but it didn't seem to make any difference and he left the practice soon after and the new doctor threw his hand up in horror and took them away!
Glad you go yourself sorted anyway but there are others of us who struggle with what should seem on the surface to be simple but because it covers such broad symptoms. Its definitely a women thing which says to me hormones because Elkwarning said earlier in post that more women suffer chronic fatigue, ME like symptoms, depression, anxiety that sort of thing more than men.
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Get referred to an endocrinologist? LadyBt you are correct: GPs won't go on symptoms but if thyroid is 'within normal limits' which is different to other parts of the World apparently, the sufferer won't get treated!
Scandallous!
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Hi lady Bt.I see you have been down that track and have been told the same story that you are in the normal range.yes you can be but still be extremely ill.The test you need to get is called a thyroid antibodies test.It will tell you if you have Hashimoto's thyroiditis.Forget all about the TSH ones now and go straight for the best test.
In New Zealand we are gathering a petition for parliament.I have put the link below.
It will blow women and men away what they are asking for our doctors and endocrinologist to start doing and it's terrible to think it is this bad but it is.We are being denied a diagnosis and sent away to feel like it's all in our head and it's not.
Where you live will be know different .
Your doctor trying you on thyroid meds is extremely interesting.Please read the link below scroll down to under the pictures where it tells you that many thyroid meds do not work.And you should be diagnosed on Symptoms alone not the TSH tests.
Are you on HRT?
Please report back if you get the tests.
https://our.actionstation.org.nz/petitions/help-nz-thyroid-patients-get-treatment-that-works-1
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Nah, Ladybt28-
I was my ******gallbladder(acute cholecystytis) with gastic flu on top- what a great time that was. Thankfully gallbladder now in bin, with its marble sized stones. My CRP came back down once the damn thing was out.
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Hi Penelope - yes I am on hrt and I had to try 6 kinds before I got one that worked. Here in the UK we have the same problems as you with diagnosis and no people are not being diagnosed properly. It's not going to change here anytime soon though, its just not on the agenda and it has been a problem for people with thyroid issues for a very long time.
We are having trouble also with other basic tests. I cannot get my GP or my NHS meno clinic to conduct blood tests for my hrt nor can I get a womb scan on the NHS, I would have to go private. They are just prescribing now and the follow ups are a bit non-existent in some parts of the country and the prescribing of hrt is also patchy. Some places it's really good others just terrible.
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hi sgtvhilts
The Link Between Fat Malabsorption, Gallstone Disease and Hashimoto's Thyroid
People with Hashimoto's and hypothyroidism often experience fat malabsorption issues and have an increased risk for gallbladder problems, as the thyroid can affect the composition of bile and its ability to flow.
The lack of thyroxine (free T4), as seen in hypothyroidism, decreases liver cholesterol metabolism. This results in changes to the bile composition itself, which then leads to what is called a state of bile cholesterol supersaturation. This thickens the bile and impairs it by slowing its rate of flow.
Decreased bile flow impacts an important process called peristalsis, which involves wave-like muscle contractions that push food and bile through the intestines. As peristalsis is reduced, many people experience constipation, with up to 15 percent of hypothyroid patients reporting to have fewer than three bowel movements weekly.
As digestion slows down, there can also be increased bacterial growth, which can then result in diarrhea.
Furthermore, the change in bile composition and delayed flow can cause the liver's cholesterol to crystalize, forming gallbladder stones, or gallstones (solid particles that block the common bile duct, pancreatic duct, and cause inflammation of the gallbladder).
The lack of thyroxine associated with hypothyroidism can also affect the sphincter of Oddi (layers of muscle that regulate the flow of bile into the small intestine/duodenum, which close between meals, preventing bile from continuing to flow into the small intestine when it isn't needed). The sphincter may experience increased tension, which can prevent normal bile flow. This has been thought to contribute to the formation of common bile duct stones, as well as gallstones.
Thus, it's not surprising that there is an increased prevalence of hypothyroidism found in patients with common bile duct stones. In fact, patients with common bile duct stones and gallstones have, respectively, 7-fold and 3-fold increases in the frequency of hypothyroidism.
Experiments with hypothyroid rats have confirmed the thyroxine effect on bile composition, decreased bile flow and relaxation of the sphincter of Oddi. Research in rats has also shown that the administration of thyroid hormone improves bile flow – suggesting that there is a strong correlation between developing gallbladder issues and hypothyroidism.
There are also indirect effects relating to bile production in those with thyroid disease.
Remember that when you have issues with bile production, you can have deficiencies in essential fat soluble vitamins such as vitamins A, E, D, and K, as well as fatty acids. Vitamin D deficiency is commonly found in people with Hashimoto's. Some 68 percent of my readers have reported having a diagnosed vitamin D deficiency. In fact, when I know someone has been supplementing with vitamin D, but still tests as deficient, I view that as an important clue that they may have fat malabsorption issues. The lack of key vitamins and fatty acid deficiencies can cause a whole host of additional symptoms, and can further impact thyroid hormone conversion (T4 to the active T3 hormone).
Furthermore, poor bile flow can lead to a recirculation of toxins such as heavy metals and excess hormones.
As you may know, nutrient depletions and impaired detoxification pathways are often the root causes of Hashimoto's symptoms, so it's important to address the gallbladder and bile issues that may be at the root of these issues.
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NOt sure what caused my stones, but i know there is huge genetic component to mine.
Since my gall bladder has gone i really do feel a different person. NO gut rot, constipation etc and inflamatory markers o- yay.
As for Hashimoto- my thyroid levels have always been normal and it is not something i've looked into- i'm not going looking at the mo as i am 'avoiding ' the dr's and as long as they keep giving me my stuff on repeat then i'll stay away. I have lost considerable faith in them having been 'diagnosed' with IBS and gastritis before the acute gall bladder crisis also with Meno clinic just spouting off the NICE guidlines- they can all , for now DO ONE!!!! LOL
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Very very interesting. It's with some horror I recognise Hashimoto. My sister has it. Never knew what it was - she lives abroad and she just casually dropped it into a conversation about her health, and I remember she said it hadn't been treated for years ...
If they don't test for it in the NHS, is it possible to get one privately?
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Sorry, my horror continues... high bp that they're finding difficult to control and inexplicable inability to lose weight, even when quadrupling my exercise while halving my calorie intake. They even said that on the face of it it looks like thyroid but the tests keep coming back normal.
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ElkWarning you need to get a copy of your so called normal tests.If your sister has it you are 85% going to have it as well.Demand the antibodies test be done on family history alone.
Check out Graves' disease along with Hashimoto's you will know if you have it.Just remember I had normal tests for 26 years.But I had all the symptoms and they failed to ever do the antibodies test.
So I had every symptom,family history,a goitre,a baby born with cleft lip and palate and for 26 years they did nothing.
Please push and push till you are satisfied the more of us that get the antibodies test and report back on this forum the better.Goody luck honey 😀
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I would think that by contacting the appropriate dept at your local Hospital to explain the problem and asking how to get a referral would be the place to start. Would a diabetic be left with symptoms and no further investigation/treatment etc.?
Have you spoken to a Nurse Practitioner rather than your GP ElkWarning? Or a local Pharmacist or Hospital Lab. to see how wide spread this problem might be? Who is your MP ........... Health Minister now that the Government of the Day are 'in'?
Good Luck!
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This is so interesting. Would taking 200mg of Ibuprofen regularly through the day have the same effect?
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Hello ladies.
I am not a medic but I would advise caution about using a lot of Ibuprofen as I think that it can cause stomach and gastrointestinal problems . I do know that people taking these drugs regularly for pain relief are warned about internal bleeding as a side effect.
Take care everyone.
K.
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Hello ladies.
I am not a medic but I would advise caution about using a lot of Ibuprofen as I think that it can cause stomach and gastrointestinal problems . I do know that people taking these drugs regularly for pain relief are warned about internal bleeding as a side effect.
Take care everyone.
K.
Agreed. It's also not good for the kidneys. It's meant for occasional, short term use only.
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I'm not sure if that would work but try it for three or four days and just see.Its only long term use that will effect your tummy.And you are trying if for a few weeks to see if it works.
You can get Omeprazole tabs to take that put a lining on the stomach if you decide to take it long term
The doctors dish theses out like lollies.We all need to advocate for ourselves and what is right for us.
Good luck let us know how you get on.