Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Kathleen on September 11, 2019, 03:25:54 PM
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Hello ladies
Does anyone have a time of day when they feel their worst but other times when 'normality' returns?
As an example I feel calm when I wake at night, fairly okay when I get up but then jittery mid morning, also tired and yawning. This feeling of unease increases through the afternoon and early evening but by about 8pm the horrible feelings often disappear and I feel better again. Then it's off to bed and the whole rigmarole starts again.
We know that Melotonin fluctuates over twenty four hours and Cortisol rouses us in the morning, so do Oestrogen and Progesterone also rise and fall? And if so, could we manipulate that pattern somehow?
Probably a silly question but we might learn something from comparing experiences.
Wishing you well ladies.
K.
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Hi K
It's a really good post! I think I tend to feel worse around 8am, then again late afternoon/early evening. I wondered whether mine was related to blood sugar levels as 8am is the time I'm just getting to work (and having proper breakfast, I have a snack when I get up much earlier).
Would that fit with you too, maybe?
We are all so different!!
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Hello again Kathleen,
Yes, early morning is definitely the worst time of day for me, I wake up tired and with zero motivation. I feel a bit better in the afternoon and great in the evening.
I have read an interesting article on HRT patches for girls with Turner Syndrome and I was also wondering if there's a circadian rhythm of sex hormones in postmenopausal women. They tried to mimic normal circadian rhythms by attaching and detaching the patches at specific times during the day/night. https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/86/7/3039/2848398
Another very interesting question!
Bear.
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Hi Kathleen - great observation. I absolutely have good/bad moments - awful first thing, pick up late afternoon and feel entirely clear headed and bouncy early/mid evening. It's obviously linked to something else like cortisol but I'm damned if I can work it out!
BearR - interesting about the patch use - I've found myself ripping off and reapplying patches some days. Feel better within a couple of hours of removing/applying as needed. Bizarre but defo a ‘thing'.
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Hello ladies
Does anyone have a time of day when they feel their worst but other times when 'normality' returns?
As an example I feel calm when I wake at night, fairly okay when I get up but then jittery mid morning, also tired and yawning. This feeling of unease increases through the afternoon and early evening but by about 8pm the horrible feelings often disappear and I feel better again. Then it's off to bed and the whole rigmarole starts again.
We know that Melotonin fluctuates over twenty four hours and Cortisol rouses us in the morning, so do Oestrogen and Progesterone also rise and fall? And if so, could we manipulate that pattern somehow?
Probably a silly question but we might learn something from comparing experiences.
Wishing you well ladies.
K.
Hi Kathleen
Most definitely I have a better time of day.
Like bear I wake up really exahusted in the morning. In fact I feel more tired and worse in the morning than when I turn off the light to go to sleep at night. However once I've had my two mugs of tea and got up - I am usually fine - although sometimes feel groggy for a couple of hours. I am usually full of energy in the late afternoon/evening!
I haven't got the bottom of mine but I must lack the cortisol awakening response - but I haven't always been like this - has got worse over the past few years so nothing to do with HRT. I also snore (according to husband) but this is I think because I now sleep much more deeply eg hardly waking for a pee in the night. Don't think I have sleep apnoea - well he hasn't said that I do. I'm not too fat either.
This is why I find it difficult to understand what the morning jitters or adrenalin surges are - as I have the opposite!!
There is most definitely a circadian rhythm to estradiol production but not sure about what happens post-menopause. You can search threads on this forum and there have been some refs and links.
Re patch absorption - this is greatest in the evening when blood flows closer to the skin surface as body temeprature is higher so more estradiol absorbed from the patch. Think I've got that right - I'm sure if you search this forum you will find the refs! KiltedCupid it takes 12 hours I think for serum levels of estradiol to reach their peak following a new patch being applied and a similar time frame to decline. Serum levels go back to baseline after approx 24 hours after removal of patch (off the top of my head). Someone will correct me if I've remembered wrongly!
Re blood sugar - very important to have a good breakfast! Also I eat a lowish carb low (added) sugar diet (not no carb btw!) so I always have a bit of gnawing hunger when I go to bed so to deal with this without going to bed hungry and to save eating the wrong thing I often have a small bowl of natural yogurt last thing - which fills the stomach, and is slow release. This is only in the last few months so is not related to the morning tiredness.
Hurdity x
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Hello again ladies and many thanks for your interesting comments.
Btw I begin my day with a bowl of oats, dates, flaxseed and a sprinkle of cinnamon with soya milk ( so actually lots of carbs) and end it with exactly the same mixture just before I go to bed. I never have bloating or indigestion and usually get straight to sleep. Go figure! We are most certainly all different.
Take care ladies.
K.
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Hello again Kathleen,
I'm currently reading a book that has renewed my interest to learn more about chronotypes.
For anyone interested the book is The Nocturnal Brain: Tales of Nightmares and Neuroscience, by Guy Leschziner. Loving it so far.
BeaR.
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Hello again ladies.
BeaR - funny you should mention chronotypes. A book called How Not To Diet has been written by Dr Michael Greger and will be published in December. He includes the study of chronotypes and says the scientific data is fascinating and can be of practical benefit. Dr Greger is the founder of NutritionFacts.org and I'm a big fan of his. I will certainly buy the book and would probably pre order it on Amazon but the fact they pay so little tax sticks in my craw so often I wait until publication and use a bookshop. I may look for the title you have mentioned as it sounds interesting and will give me some much needed background on the subject!
Wishing you well.
K.
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That sounds exciting, thanks for posting!
BeaR.
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First thing in the morning I feel really rough and then once I'm up I'm ok until about 3/4 in the afternoon. its horrible I struggle till at least after 6 and then in the evening I'm wide awake and fully functioning and could go right through to about 2/3 in the morning. My parents always said I had trouble sleeping through the night as a baby and when I was at school I always could get to grips with my homework after 7pm which drove them mad. It's still the same, but it's really inconvenient.
I have just tried to adapt my life around it rather than fight it. I gave that up in my 30's. My family know that's my time clock but it is really interesting why it works that way.
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Hello again ladies
Even when young I thought it was a treat to go to bed early so clearly not much of an evening person.
Dr Greger has found that eating the exact same meal at different times of the day influences weight gain and I predict his 'How Not To Diet' book will be a best seller when it's published in December.
Take care everyone.
K.
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It's interesting how so many of us feel so rough first thing. Tbf, I've always been an owl, late to bed and rise in the morning, always taken a while to ‘warm up' first thing, so I wonder if this is our destiny and just becomes exacerbated after meno? Right now I rarely go to bed before 1am, sleep like a log for 7/8 hours and wake feeling groggy which doesn't really lift until lunchtime. Post lunch I get progressively perkier. There's definitely a pattern. Old age?
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Today is the first time I've felt bad in the morning. Had a hot flush then sweat at 4am this morning but got back to sleep and woke up proper just after 6am. I've had heart palpitations, stomach spasms and acid relux all morning and had to lie down twice!
Usually I'm fine in the mornings but I've started (last month or so) to feel really weak and strange in the early evenings from 5.30pm onwards with zero appetite then crash with fatigue from 8pm onwards.
It's all a shower of &*(*&&!!! in my eyes and another symptom to go through. >:(
Wx
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Today is the first time I've felt bad in the morning. Had a hot flush then sweat at 4am this morning but got back to sleep and woke up proper just after 6am. I've had heart palpitations, stomach spasms and acid relux all morning and had to lie down twice!
Usually I'm fine in the mornings but I've started (last month or so) to feel really weak and strange in the early evenings from 5.30pm onwards with zero appetite then crash with fatigue from 8pm onwards.
It's all a shower of &*(*&&!!! in my eyes and another symptom to go through. >:(
Wx
Wobbles - I couldn't agree more - a right shower - insert expletives as appropriate.
Just me, but the symptoms you're describing are what I suffer when my oestrogen gets too low. I know this because I've been experimenting with coming off HRT over the past few months, and just when I think I've cracked it, those symptoms, along with mood crash, are the first to appear.
I don't know your HRT status but it might be worthwhile having a blood test if you are on hrt to determine if an increase is required.
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With me, all seem to go according to the weather now days...
Why I felt good yesterday and day before but got up feeling heavy and very pi...ed off today?
Only the weather changed!
Well. At least I did my ironing, though, for this mood definitely helps my cleaning! ???
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Hello again ladies
My moods have also changed like the weather today. However I plan to continue being HRT free until the beginning of October to give my experiment the full three months. I felt better earlier and fell into the old trap of thinking that I'd turned some sort of corner, only to feel wobbly again later. Ho hum. It all gets very wearing doesn't it.
Wishing you all well ladies.
K.
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Hello again ladies
My moods have also changed like the weather today. However I plan to continue being HRT free until the beginning of October to give my experiment the full three months. I felt better earlier and fell into the old trap of thinking that I'd turned some sort of corner, only to feel wobbly again later. Ho hum. It all gets very wearing doesn't it.
Wishing you all well ladies.
K.
It sounds like you're ‘generally' ok though Kathleen? You've made it to almost 3 months HRT free without major problems and maybe those you have will start to dissipate? The longest I got to was 3 weeks and I really couldn't function.
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Hello again ladies
KiltedCupid - thank you so much for your comments. As I've said before, I am no better but no worse so there is some comfort in that. I'll continue to update the forum as other ladies might benefit from my experiences.
Wishing you well.
K.
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Plrase.do keep us updated kathleen. I too may stop my gel this week if feel no better. X
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Yes, I'm interested too Kathleen, I alternate between 12.5 and 25 patch, so trying to keep it low as I no longer feel good on high doses of E. It's funny because my body just seemed to tell me this and the only way I felt better was to reduce, not increase, as I thought. I'm happy staying on it for a while low dose but interested to hear how you get on.
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Hi Kiltedcupid, my doc won't test for hormone levels as she says there's no point as they fluctuate. I suggested she could take blood samples every week for a month if they wanted but that was a no-go. They've now prescibed the mini-pill for me (Cerazette) as I was having issues with too much bleeding on Femoston 1/10 plus bad digestive issues meant I probably wasn't absorbing it well. They won't give me oestrogen to go with the mini-pill either. I'm waiting to see if I get a period since I've been off HRT in the last few weeks.
Hi Kathleen, - I'm also interested to hear how you get on. I've had some occasional warm spells at night - can't really call them sweats yet and no hot flushes during the day at all. I've been taking digestive enzymes which has really helped with the digestion but not the 'funny turns' I sometimes get in the evenings. Do keep us updated :-)
W x
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Wobbles - I had dreadful digestive problems on Femoston. It was a pity as I quite liked that prog, it seemed very gentle but the digestive issues were horrendous. You can have a home blood test done if you're willing to pay for it, Medichecks have a range of tests including, I believe, oestrogen only. Have a look at their website.
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Thanks KiltedCupid - just checked it out and seems very thorough!
Thanks for the info.
W x
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Thanks KiltedCupid - just checked it out and seems very thorough!
Thanks for the info.
W x
No problem - the only issue I've had with medichecks tests is, as they're a finger prick blood test, if you are a gel user, they pick up the gel in the skin which can skew readings. I was told to avoid gel on one hand for a few weeks and re-test. It was fine then. Good luck.
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Hi Kiltedcupid, my doc won't test for hormone levels as she says there's no point as they fluctuate. I suggested she could take blood samples every week for a month if they wanted but that was a no-go. They've now prescibed the mini-pill for me (Cerazette) as I was having issues with too much bleeding on Femoston 1/10 plus bad digestive issues meant I probably wasn't absorbing it well. They won't give me oestrogen to go with the mini-pill either. I'm waiting to see if I get a period since I've been off HRT in the last few weeks.
Hi Kathleen, - I'm also interested to hear how you get on. I've had some occasional warm spells at night - can't really call them sweats yet and no hot flushes during the day at all. I've been taking digestive enzymes which has really helped with the digestion but not the 'funny turns' I sometimes get in the evenings. Do keep us updated :-)
W x
Hi Wobbles - sorry I don't know your story but your doc is right and you really don't need to spend money on blood tests for oestrogen. Also Cerazette is not especially for menopause (well not the classic sympotoms anyway) - as it doesn't deal with reduced oestrogen (depending where you are in menopause) - but controls your cycle. In fact it depresses oestrogen levels. If you want to explore this in more detail just looking at your situation maybe start a new thread. Apologies if you have already done so - I've only just come on here and there are lots of posts!
Hurdity x