Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Personal Experiences => Topic started by: squeaker99 on August 09, 2019, 10:28:46 AM
-
I am back on here having thought I had nailed Peri and the anxiety train it brings with it. So wrong.
I have had two consecutive nights with no sleep and am terrified it will kill me. Really.
I had a bad 10 day stretch a few yeas ago but since then have generally been OK or only have the odd
night. For me it is the fear of not sleeping that fuels the anxiety. I am exhausted but get into bed at 10pm
and am not only wide awake but hyper, heart racing. Yes I have read all the Sleep Hygine aids, the books
the audios. Been to GP (yesterday), My brain is so foggy now I can only think about 1)The fact I won't sleep
tonight and 2) A few more night of this will kill me and 3) I love my kids so much.... :'( :'( :'( I feel very alone with this.
I know what I should do but find it impossible to stop my brain telling me these awful things.
I guess I am looking for reassurance and empathy from people who have been through this. I know it is Cortisol/Adrenaline
based due to Peri.
I never game sleep a thought before Peri. It just happened and I never worried about a bad night, even though my
son slept badly for 7 years!
-
........... and breath!
I had 8 years in a very busy job with not sleeping well. It was when I moved that I realised that I hadn't had a good night's sleep for years. However. 1 night I woke telling myself that it hadn't killed me and I was doing my job without problems. After that, I slept better.
Stop looking for going to sleep, a habit I got into. Early hours my mind would say "not another night, how will I cope in the morning". But I did. So will you.
My evening routine is a deep bubble bath with very good book. I have a light on background all night so that I won't have to wake completely on my 1-2 bathroom visits. The nights prior to going away if the alarm is set, I often don't sleep until the early hours. My mind obviously waiting 4 the alarm to ring ::)
I can sleep on a linen line when my brain shuts off. So I never deny myself sleep and usually sleep in the night.
Lack of sleep in your situation is unlikely to kill you. Continual disruption of sleep is used as a torture method when it certainly can become dangerous.
Keep to a sleep habit from 6.30 p.m. Oh Lunch is served, I'll be back ;-)
-
Right I'm getting round a pizza ;-)
Certainly if the body is hungry it can keep a person awake. As can dehydration. Gentle exercise is important anyway, I don't get enough. :-\. Adrenaline can help how we feel, speaking to people can help i.e. going shopping and talking the girl at the Till.
R U in a stressful job? Think about your whole lifestyle: family commitments, commuting times, diet ........
Cortisol is the waking hormone. It would cause me to wake suddenly, deeply afraid - anytime after 3.30 a.m. :'( throughout the 1990s.
It's easy to say 'don't focus on how much sleep you get but more on what you do have each night' - .......... get into a good routine in the day, making lists if necessary. Wind down in the evening and don't watch TV that might waken the senses ::)
A short course of sleeping tablets from the GP might help too as it gets the brain back into sleep mode. I had 5 tablets - took 1 for 2 nights then didn't need the others. Nights I can't sleep I read, make a cuppa; anything to stop my brain whizzing :-\
-
Thanks for your replies ladies.
I have tried two HRTs (although my only ' bad' symptoms of Peri are increased anxiety - I have always been anxious. I get it from my dad who also has sleep problems) which I came off due to adverse side effects. I have tried Propranol and Cloindine but they messed with my BP. I either sleep 5/6/7 hours with maybe one toilet get up or else I don't sleep at all. If I don't get off by 1:00am that is me up all night. I never feel ' rested' these nights and always buzzy/fight or flight. I am usually in such a state that I forget to get up and just too and turn trying to get some hours in. I have done meditation in the past and CBT which help well unless I get on this awful anxiety fuelled loop.
I work from home which doesn't help. I have had many GPs recommend Sertraline as anxiety has always been there prior to Peri so I may give that a go. I feel this is hormone related but which and why I have no idea. I seem to get bad stretches 2-3 times a year.
-
Also the nights are light and dawn breaks earlier so your sleep pattern may well be affected, now we are going into Autumn nights will pull in >:( :-\
It's the "I'm awake so won't get to sleep". Wakes the brain immediately. Have some books/craft work/radio ready for those nights in the lounge. If you find you are sleepy, don't go to bed 'cos that will wake you. Have a blanket to pull over you and sleep where you are. It breaks the habit.
Although so-called 'experts' [how I HATE that word] suggest keeping to the same sleep routine, I disagree - through experience if I sleep when I can I still sleep at night (usually) and we lay in at weekends without any problems. Do what is right to get you back into a good sleep pattern and if you are able to catch up, do so.
Think of babies, puppies, kittens who sleep when they can ;)
-
What fuels your loop Birdy? I don't worry about any ' stuff' in life - just health. I am
terrified of not being here for my kids as my son is very emotional and always worrys about me.
I do wonder if he has got worrying off my or whether it is just in our genes. This fear of not
sleeping is ridiculous, it is so counter productive. I sometimes feel I just can't fight it.
-
I can empathise.
I feel I am now defined by my perimenopause, my health anxiety, my insomnia, my digestive issues, my sore boobs......
I've been sleeping from 2/3 until 5/6 am recently which is why I look 74 not 47.
My advice is to do all your jobs while you can't sleep so at least you're not tired AND behind.
Eventually, after a month or two, the cycle breaks for me and I can sleep maybe midnight until 5/5.30am which is much more acceptable.
I can also empathise specifically with your worries and comments about your children. Health anxiety has become an everyday thing for me and I just flip between ailments.
A health anxiety diary helps. My worries of August 2018 are the same as now in August 2019...
-
Your children will pick up your anxiety. That's why since age 3 I've had panic attacks, I can't remember what was happening but it's continued down the years :'( and certain situations trigger reactions.
Sit your children down and talk to them. Take time with them. Put away gadgets, get out and walk! What ages are they, I remember having I-Spy books - can still buy them :-* to do stuff together. Do you have parks close by? Fresh air makes us tired naturally ;-).
-
Thanks ladies. I am reading your lovely posts whilst eating a Chelsea bun after gently nodding off to Countdown only yo be woken every 5 minutes by that lovely ticking clock refrain. I did think I had ' beaten' this anxiety/cortisol/no sleep rubbish....after years of CBT/vitamin cocktails/cows pee hormones/5am walks/OCD gland prodding / tearful Meno clinic trips/ lists/Pricey Meno cook books/....I thought I may have my 4 balls in the air for once. I was just tearfully telling my long suffering DH in all seriousness that I wanted ' Here Comes the Sun' to be played at my funeral.
Selfish. I feel very self wallowing. Childish even. Like I maybe just need a good kick up this BS like in the 50s. But it all feel so real.
I thought at 5am this morning, what a stupid way to die - through self inflicted lack of sleep. What a totally rubbish role model I am for my wonderful kids.
-
Yep. You've answered your own sentiments - but it won't solve the lack of sleep immediately.
Be kinder to yourself! Sleep deprivation is cyclic: don't sleep, worry about not sleeping, waking to see if you have dropped off to sleep ::). We actually don't need as much as we think we do - the body will sleep when it needs it, to the point of people falling asleep whilst driving etc.. We are forced into habits which are not normal, think of Cave Man [in fur not lycra?] - went to sleep at dusk, woke at dawn. Had much more to worry him than we do but our ancestral habits continue: fear of spiders, anxiety about sabre toothed tigers etc. instead we wander round supermarkets hunting for stuff.
Get into a sleep pattern. Get DH to help. 'here comes the sun' wouldn't be my choice as I never liked the Beatles :D - another thread?
Does DH sleep, mine does. Really really well, he'll apologise in the mornings if I've had a bad night 'alone' ::)
Surivival is selfish - that's way babies cry, sometimes B4 being born!
-
Hi squeaker99, I'm sorry to hear you are having such a hard time with insomnia, you have my every sympathy (I've had 3yrs of it). I started my second regime of HRT end of June and had 3 great weeks with consistent good sleep, unfortunately this has not continued, far from as bad as it was before but still not as good as I'd like. I'm planning to wait until I've had the 3 months on this regime & see how things are from there. I slept for 1.5hrs midday today (unusual as I'm always worried it will affect my nights sleep). I have tried various things myself to try & help, umpteen trials of supplements now on Magnesium & vitamin D, flaxseed, also changed my diet & lost weight, recenty been having massages (weekly) and using aromatherapy oils.
I have always had good 'sleep hygiene' so I know that has not been an issue, I did see improvement when I stopped having caffeine (tea/coffee) after 6pm at night & mainly drinking de caf. I know how soul destroying it is and how much of an impact it can have on your life, I was still having to work full time. I hope you find relief from this vicious cycle & get a well deserved nights sleep. x
-
Don't restrict liquid intake in the evening as it makes the kidneys work harder = more getting out of bed!
-
Hi Squeaker. Big hug first.
So sorry to hear you are struggling so much with insomnia. I completely understand how worried you are as I was where you are now, for several years during peri & it's a Godawful thing to deal with. Even 7 years postmenopause, insomnia continues to be a major issue for me & one of the main reasons I have recently gone back on systemic HRT.
Insomnia hasn't killed me yet, but as with you, there have been times when I truly thought it might. It's no joke and can be a very frightening thought. My insomnia goes back more than 30 years as I have a chronic pain condition that cannot be treated, but during peri the most intense overheating began every night & that exacerbated the insomnia & still does. Since peri started there has also been inexplicable early waking that happens whether I have pain or night sweats or not. I simply wake & am too alert to get back to sleep, despite being very tired by day. Now long postmenopause, I still find it very hard to sleep much after about 3:30am and often only sleep poorly before that. But this is still far better than I was a decade & more ago.
During the peri years, on many nights, especially close to a period, I had no sleep at all. It terrified me & I amassed a library of books on how to deal with it + CD's & tried all the various supplements.
I would back Birdy's comment that meditation really can help. But you have to get into regular practice to really reap the benefits. It can improve not only sleep & anxiety but physical health - there are many studies showing amazing benefits, so if you can get back to doing this again, somehow make the time & get into a routine, it is perhaps the best health insurance measure you can take at this difficult time.
I know this is controversial, but I have to go against advice that magnesium & B vitamins are always helpful. I found both exacerbated my sleep issues when peri began. Magnesium IS said to be sedative & calming & I am all for its cautious use in those women it helps. It did help me sleep & relax for years before hormones began to go awry, so if you have not tried magnesium it may help. BUT nutritional supplements can have unexpected, idiosyncratic effects in individuals & at menopause when the body is out of balance I suspect it is relatively easy to do more harm than good this way. I found B group vits too stimulating & that magnesium made me far too hot. The diuretic effect can also mess with electrolytes & possibly cause dehydration which can also have adverse effects on sleep.
Foxy - I'm going to say something similar about flax - again another supplement that can be amazingly beneficial to many women especially for digestive issues & one that helped me no end BEFORE peri began. Though it's termed a phyto-oestrogen, it's thought that the lignans flax contains can have either oestrogenic or ANTI-oestrogenic effects. So at a time when we're trying to increase our oestrogen levels, flax may jeopardise those efforts & I suspect, oppose the effects of HRT. I found to my dismay that once peri began the flax seeds I'd found so helpful for digestive issues actually worsened my meno symptoms including flushing, night sweats & insomnia. They also raised pulse rate & made me feel jittery & hyper. I thought flax was somehow potentiating thyroid hormone (I am on Thyroxine & T3) but after researching & experimenting with excluding & reintroducing it, came to the conclusion it was more likely lowering oestrogen levels. The following link may not be the best example of the anti-oestrogenic effect proposed in the scientific literature, but I think it's interesting.
The meaty bits are:-
"A phytoestrogen is a plant nutrient that is somewhat similar to the female hormone estrogen. Due to this similarity, lignans may have estrogenic and/or anti-estrogenic effects in the body."
"Lignans, which are the type of phytoestrogens in flaxseed, can change estrogen metabolism. In postmenopausal women, lignans can cause the body to produce less active forms of estrogen."
https://www.oncologynutrition.org/on/erfc/healthy-nutrition-now/foods/flaxseeds-and-breast-cancer
I'm not advising anyone to stop supplements they find helpful - we all need to help ourselves as best we can. I'm simply sounding a note of caution & suggesting that this is a time when we need to be very vigilant to the way our bodies respond & open to the possibility that some "natural" remedies may upset the very delicate balance of the body at a time when its ability to maintain homoeostasis is already badly compromised by the hormonal chaos of menopause.
Sorry this is a bit of a meander - but anything that might help us sleep at this time seems worth raising.
Wx
-
Any meander can be useful :thankyou:
Certainly practicing relaxation etc. is important. I have found the tense/relax method useful - starting at the toes one stretches, holds, the relaxes. All the way up the body. Usually by the time I get to knees ::). Also deep breathing - as deep as possible whilst laying in a comfy position, hold and let it go as slowly as possible. That has worked 4 me. Note to self - remember to practice!
-
Thanks for your post Wrensong- hugs, empathy and straws to clutch are much appreciated!
I agree re the vitamins. I went through a phase of trying them all but it messed my liver up. Ditto valarian for me - made me feel awful.
The lack of a medical diagnosis and multiple suggestions from multiple GPs for my increased anxiety/insomnia makes me lurch to anything that may take me back to how I was 5 years ago.
Any tips on what to do with my brain in bed at night to avoid it thinking ' This is the dreaded moment when I lie awake all night' - I try visualisation/story telling/counting/breathing - I try and I try.
I have never managed to get out of bed after 20 minutes and do something else. I am so desperate to get my 5+ hours the idea of getting up at 3am seems mad . But then I just toss and turn and stew. Any other thought on this? I neighbour swears it worked for her.
-
I have just this minute remembered a site/programme called Sleepio (free in some part sof England seemingly, otherwise you need to pay). It was set up by a sleep specialist, it was discussed recently on a tv documentary about sleep, I saved the name in my phone. Might be worth a try especially for those who get access to it free!!
Squeaker99, I've replied to PM.
-
Get out of bed ;-). What's to lose. Have a wander round the house, make a cuppa - anything to break the habit .......... oh tell yourself 'this too will pass' ........ if the 'I won't sleep' starts, then give it a :kick: ;-). It's about making new habits!
-
Birdy - thanks for the suggestion about seed cycling. Frustratingly, I have to be very careful with all seeds & nuts these days - for 2 reasons. 1) they are high in arginine which is thought to encourage flares of the cold sore virus & that plagues me & 2) I have recently been advised to reduce omega 6 fats (inflammatory) while suspected Sjogren's is under investigation. While flax seeds are said to be rich in omega 3, I believe pumpkin, sunflower & other seeds are high in omega 6.
Squeaker - like you, I rarely get up at night. Doing that, I've learnt, especially having to switch on a light, makes me even less likely to get back to sleep. If you are doing breathing exercises, counting, visualisations when you can't sleep you are doing all the right things. Breathing exercises vary so I don't know what type you've tried but I find CLKD's suggestion of controlled deep breathing - counting breaths in & out & pausing between can really help. BUT for me, I have to keep at it longer than you might imagine to reduce pulse rate & anxiety when these are raised. About 20 mins at a time seems to encourage the relaxation response to kick in - for me at least. You need to find the right rhythm for you - some exercises tell you to breathe in to 4 & out to 8, some in to 3 and out to 6 or whatever - some counts are simply not relaxing as they are too unnatural to your normal rhythm. Best to experiment to find a count that feels natural to you & this should then, gradually help you unwind.
I find visualisations can help me drift off - they may have to be very detailed for you to get immersed & forget yourself though! Take yourself on a journey - maybe a long walk somewhere you love and concentrate on every detail. What you can see, the sounds, how the breeze feels on your face, the ground beneath your feet, the weather, conversations with a companion . . . One I used to repeat in imagination was the journey from home to Greece on holiday. I'd start with packing - all the items that would go into my suitcase, remembering weighing the suitcase, carrying it down the stairs, the drive to the B&B near Gatwick, the evening at the B&B, the early start, checking in, boarding the plane, the flight, arrival, the journey to the villa & so on. As detailed as you can manage. Just make it a pleasant scenario you've found really relaxing in real life - FGS don't do my flight to Greece if you're afraid of flying!!
I find exercising too hard at any time of day is now also counter-productive to sleep - exhaustion seems to tax the body & counter-intuitively actually exacerbates insomnia for me. Exercising late in the evening is also a bad idea, as the raised body temp that results is not conducive to sleep. Also make sure your bedroom is cool & as dark as possible.
Someone - I think Birdy, mentioned the importance of complex carbs in the diet - I absolutely agree - poor blood sugar control alone can be a major disruptor of sleep & this condition, which has many horrible symptoms, becomes more common at menopause. Good quality, lean protein at each main meal, in addition to complex carbs, helps spread the glycaemic load, slowing digestion to prevent spikes & troughs in blood sugar. It's important to eat well in this way throughout the day as chronically poor sugar control can have an impact on sleep later. A small meal of complex carbs with a little protein just before bed (something like a bowl of no added sugar muesli or some oatcakes, both with a little high protein (Greek) natural yoghurt) can help get you through the night. Though some people sleep better on an empty stomach - maybe experiment to see what works for you. Maybe read up on hypogylcaemia or search for posts on it on here if you don't already know much about it.
I think the hardest thing to accept when we're worried about insomnia is that we have seemingly little control over it. We are so used to being in control of our lives before menopause muscles in that it can be overwhelming & panic-making to find suddenly normal has gone completely out of the window & nothing we do seems to begin to restore the way our bodies previously worked as adult women. Going with the flow in these circumstances can be very, very hard to do, but by day, distraction, diversion, concentrating on what we CAN do in life, building in time for enjoyment in whatever form does it for us & as many forms as possible - CAN gradually loosen the grip menopause has & that includes the worry of insomnia. Tell yourself this is a PHASE - it will pass, I may not be quite the same from now on as I was in fertile years, but I WILL cope, I WILL learn how to get through this. And believe me, you WILL come out the other end alive, all the stronger & wiser for it. Tell yourself if that idiot Wrensong can do it, anyone can!!
Wx
-
Just seen the posts made while I was typing my last - yes to Foxy's Sleepio - this was recommended to me by a consultant Neurologist, though I have yet to try it!
-
Not idiotic at all Wrensong. It's about sharing experiences and for people to see if any are appropriate to try .
-
wrensong .... the words of inspiration in your post moved me to tears...thank you.
be gentle...accept....go with it.....it will pass ..... breathe......all so true
You have all helped me so much today ladies :thankyou:
-
My pleasure Squeaker :)
-
So anyone not sleeping - remember this thread ? ;)
-
Nite nite ladies. I will report back on what a long refreshing sleep I got in the morning :o ;D
-
Thanks Wrensong, I will have a trial without the flaxseed & see if I notice any improvement, I do have 2 days where I don't take it (my fast days) but can't say I've noticed any difference those days but probably too short a period. Will update on how it goes! x
-
I slept. Did U?
-
Kind of, slept from 11pm till 1.30am (up at loo!) then dosed/dreamt till 7am. I've always found my best sleep (restorative sleep) is my first sleep in the night, just a pity it's so short!! Feeling tired again during the day (that had passed but back again!).
-
Foxy, yes I imagine a 2 day break too little if it is perhaps having any significant hormone disrupting effects. With any luck, if you find it helpful in other ways, you will not find it has been adding to symptoms & will be able to continue with it. I sometimes wonder whether my being on T3 as well as T4 might account for some complications & unexpected reactions to medications, supplements etc, especially those that seem to be contrary to the majority experience. Very interested to know whether you feel any better or worse without the flaxseed though. Can I ask how much you have been taking & whether for digestive reasons?
-
I am back on here having thought I had nailed Peri and the anxiety train it brings with it. So wrong.
I have had two consecutive nights with no sleep and am terrified it will kill me. Really.
I had a bad 10 day stretch a few yeas ago but since then have generally been OK or only have the odd
night. For me it is the fear of not sleeping that fuels the anxiety. I am exhausted but get into bed at 10pm
and am not only wide awake but hyper, heart racing. Yes I have read all the Sleep Hygine aids, the books
the audios. Been to GP (yesterday), My brain is so foggy now I can only think about 1)The fact I won't sleep
tonight and 2) A few more night of this will kill me and 3) I love my kids so much.... :'( :'( :'( I feel very alone with this.
I know what I should do but find it impossible to stop my brain telling me these awful things.
I guess I am looking for reassurance and empathy from people who have been through this. I know it is Cortisol/Adrenaline
based due to Peri.
I never game sleep a thought before Peri. It just happened and I never worried about a bad night, even though my
son slept badly for 7 years!
I've always had sleep problems and racing mind, particularly pre menstrually and then peri. Like you I also was worried I would not be able to cope the next day. What I have found is that I now realise I can cope even if I feel quite rough, especially if I'm busy it helps me a relax a bit and maybe get a bit more sleep as a consequence. I also try the exercise in the middle of the night that I found on here, where you focus on loking at certain objects and listening to sounds in the environment and concentration on feeling where your body is. This is helpful, particularly if I start to feel panicky in the middle of the night.
I tried magnesium, it didn't seem to work for me and I had very bad stomach / bowel issues with it.
-
Wrensong, I take a table spoon on my greek yoghurt in the morning with my fruit (5 days a week) been taking it since maybe April time after reading about it on here I think. I thought it had helped my nails & hair & stomach generally but now ot sure it might just be the HRT!! I'll keep you posted though.
I never had any sleep issues until around 3 years ago, worked shifts & actually slept better although for less time on nightshifts (really deep sleep whereas light sleeper at night :o). x
-
Thanks Foxy - I so wish I could still take the stuff - was great for my tummy. I'm a Greek yoghurt fan & have fruit at breakfast every day too.
You did well to sleep so well on shift work!
Wx
-
I know, makes a difference not having kids though, alot of my colleagues would get little sleep!!
Funny though how sleep is affected by hormones when I was diagnosed yrs ago with hypothyroid I worked 12hr shifts (3 weeks of 3, 1 week of 4) I spent my days off sleeping all day sooo exhausted & no periods for a year, now 15 or so years later it's not able to sleep that's been the issue!! x
-
Afternoon lovely ladies.
Happy to report I got a good 8 hours sleep with the aid of half a sleeping table and using some of the tips you all suggested yesterday.
Boy do I feel like a different person today. The sun is shining!
What helped? Well I had dinner earlier at 5:30 and no caffeine after 2pm. I did some of the '3 in 6 out' breathing for a good 15 minutes an hours before bedtime. I usually don't do it for that long but someone on here suggested it takes a while to kick in and it really got my heart rate down. I had a nice 30 minute nap at 2pm which goes against a lot of advice but I felt much more relaxed after.
I can tentatively say I have a different mindset. If I get the ' you won't sleep' voice I try and picture it as a black and white image then shrink it down like you would volume on a remote. Or I picture Chris Helmsworth dressed as Thor waving his hammer saying ' Naughty naughty'. I just have to keep doing that over and over and accept it will take time to change what has become a bad habit.
Being reminded that good / better moments and days will come was a biggie - I smiled in bed last night at CLKDs image of kicking the bad thought out of touch :kick: A smile and funny thought do diminish the non helpful thought. I was also reminded yesterday by a sympathetic GP that phone me that as we get older we need less sleep and not to worry about how many hours I was or wasn't getting which is what you read online. ( She usually gets 5-6 on a good night she said! Maybe she was being kind to me). She said the body is good at regulating itself and will do naturally what it need to.
So I will have a few nights of half then quarter tablets to get my confidence back then keep going with the more relaxed approach.
No more Nitol or Kalms for me I think - there is something in them that makes me feel quite ill the next day.
(I also got my period this morning which suggests that hormones play a part in this. I never had PMT until 2 years ago so this could easily explain why my insomnia comes and goes . I went completely in the 4 months this year when I had no period).
I have always been anxious since being a child; part hereditary from my dad, part my ' role' in a difficult family set up, controlling mother etc so Peri has ramped up something that has always been there I think.
I am so very grateful to you for your posts and support.
-
LIVE yoghurt has bacteria ;-). Not the same as natural yoghurt, which may not.
Eating lots can cleanse the digestive tract throughout. 4 me it eases any thrush symptoms as that lives in the back passage and a few days of LIVE sorts it :D. Fruit however can cause gut problems if it's acidic - I'm waiting 4 the couple of pounds of fresh cherries, eaten on Tuesday, 2 catch up :-X :-\. I have another couple of pounds that I daren't touch until my bowel reacts ;D
What was the question ::)
Oh we have threads on awkward mothers too .......... mine is narcissistic and very difficult [My Mum!]. Do tell ;)
Granma didn't need as much sleep as she aged, probably from her 50s. She would get up at 5.30 and do the housework so that she was ready for the day. She would play with us on the beach or take us for walks. She also cooked a lot and ran a B&B ::).
Often we think we don't sleep as much as we would like but when people to go sleep clinics for 3/4 nights, it is obvious that actually, they sleep in fits and starts. But we remember waking and the thought patterns that start which keeps us awake. That afternoon sleep can regenerate the body and I never stop my brain when it needs 2 switch off. I think that 'experts' [how I HATE that word] have no idea how much sleeping to catch up helps. Think of babies, one would never wake one ....... ;)
Who is Chris Helmsworth :-\ ??? what am I missing?
-
:tulips2: good news squeaker99, long may it continue!! (sleep & the sunshine! ;D) x
-
Well Squeaker, the image of Chris Hemsworth waving his hammer saying naughty naughty . . . would wake me right up!!
-
??? ???
-
Sorry - just couldn't resist that! Now what did I really want to say? Oh yes - so, so glad to know you had a better night Squeaker. Yaaaaay!!
Yes - no caffeine after lunchtime is a great idea - they do say in some people it can take even 24 hrs to clear the system, so is perhaps best avoided altogether in anyone who has trouble sleeping, or is prone to migraine (sorry - don't shoot the messenger!)
I also did the 3/6 breathing - in the middle of last night when I woke & eventually got back to sleep. Of a sort!
Don't be afraid to experiment with napping - you can always stop if it seems to worsen sleep, but like you I find when I'm really worn out a nap seems to prepare the body for better sleep later. I think when you are exhausted & getting by on adrenalin, the fight or flight response becomes a chronic state & breaking that cycle with some form of relaxation by day can improve chances of sounder sleep at night. Just my experience - may not work that way for everyone. Some sleep experts advise against napping. A case of one man's meat . . .
I find GPs can be some of the least sympathetic medics when it comes to sleep issues! A Neuro I once saw was very concerned about my insomnia & told me to go straight to my GP "who will prescribe you something to help you sleep". I did just that & she laughed & said "oh, we'd all like something for that" & that was the end of the topic!
Like you, I never had any PMS until the last few years before menopause proper. Then I had it with a vengeance - horrific. Made me feel so sorry for the many women who suffer with it all their fertile lives.
I really hope you've reached a turning point Squeaker. Keep doing whatever seems to promise to work for you, experimenting with other approaches if need be. Would be lovely to hear how you get on.
Wx :)
-
I drink 'coke' and black tea with two sugars several times a day. Coffee makes me nauseous :-\. DH drinks lots of coffee and never has trouble sleeping ::).
-
Men in general in my experience have no trouble sleeping!
That is part of my problem. My husband is out cold as soon as his head hits the pillow, ditto my son,
leaving lonely old me with my book for half an hour with a cacophony of snoring. Nothing worse to make
you feel like you are missing out.
I remember as a kid on Christmas day all the men in the family would be asleep in the lounge by 3pm
Maybe we need some (female) scientists to research this.
-
Good idea - a thesis for someone ?
-
Men are from Mars ladies - did you not know?!
Chris Hemsworth CLKD - big hunky Aussie actor. Do keep up girl ;D
Foxy, you said when I was diagnosed yrs ago with hypothyroid I worked 12hr shifts (3 weeks of 3, 1 week of 4) I spent my days off sleeping all day sooo exhausted & no periods for a year
That must have been a very difficult time, keeping going when you were seriously hypothyroid - I take it you mean before treatment? To go without periods for a year your endocrine system must have been seriously messed up. Did it go undiagnosed for long do you think? Can be hard for medics to be sure in initial stages as I'm sure you know. Are you finding the thyroid condition complicates menopause for you? I think we chatted about it on an earlier thread, but can't remember the gist, I'm afraid.
-
To be honest Wrensong there was lots going on in my life at that time, work, family, had moved elsewhere in the UK and I only went to the GP when my periods had stopped for a year! I'd over looked the sleep & other symptoms, OH says I went a bit loopy. It's only when I was diagnosed (which was straight forward GP did bloods straight away & started on Levothyroxine) that I looked back & after reading up about it realised how unwell I'd been. Noone at work had ever mentioned anything to me so I'm assuming I was compensating & functioning reasonably well at work, home different matter.
Yeh we have chatted about hypothyroid before, think it was yourself that made aware that HRT could affect absorption of thyroxine so I had TSH etc checked after 3 months on original regime, levels were fine, changed now still oestrogen patch but provera tablet probably ask for bloods after 3 months on this regime just to keep an eye. I've never knowingly had any issues with my thyroid since stable on 100mcg for over a decade!
To be honest I'm still fairly new to all this peri, HRT etc so still learning about how it might affect/impact my hypothyroidism.
I feel like I have had such long periods of time when I've been unwell & symptomatic with lots of different health issues, being diagnosed as peri at 41yr has been a huge relief (was being investigated for rare cancers etc) I have been waiting for it all to hit me emotionally but it hasn't other than being 'flat', not tearful at all. The human body is so complex and amazing, so much we don't know & are continuing to learn. How are you? x
-
Drowsy ......... my lava lamp is pulsing gently
-
Oh Foxy, you did amazingly well to carry on under those circumstances. You must have felt rotten. My hypothyroidism went undiagnosed though I'd long suspected it & had specifically asked my then GP whether it could be behind symptoms. Was so unwell by time the goitre was found & thyroidectomy scheduled, I'd already left my job.
Glad you haven't needed your thyroid meds adjusting on HRT - I think it's usually only oral oestrogen that raises TBG, but I did need mine adjusting on transdermal. Thanks for asking about me. Had a long break from HRT last year & have just resumed systemic a few weeks ago. Started to suspect HRT was effectively lowering thyroid levels again so booked a TFT & sure enough bloods show lower than optimal again. So just in process of increasing dosage. On my first sequi regime postmenopause, so not looking forward to bleeds. HRT very low dose this time so as yet not sure whether it will be adequate.
Great that you have been stable on 100mcg Thyroxine with no thyroid symptoms - a lot of people do very well indeed on Thyroxine alone, so no reason to think that will change for you.
Couldn't agree more, the human body is unbelievable & I think Endocrinologists are some of the cleverest medics there are. The field is so complex - mind boggling, anything more than the basics. Find it hard to get my head around most of it!
Wx
-
Oh CLKD - a lava lamp! That takes me back! What colour?
-
Thats horrendous Wrensong, it is so disheartening & disturbing when you hear about & experience these misdiagnosis/delayed diagnosis & the long term impact on individuals. Sorry you had to leave your job. I will definately keep a close eye re thyroid symptoms although I appreciate your situation is more complex. I hope you find an HRT & thyroxine doses that work for you & improve your symptoms.
I only saw an Endocrinologist 3yrs ago when GP was sure it was my thyroid giving me all these symptoms rather than menopause, I have to say disappointed in them & Immunology as they told my OH when he questioned that it was menopausal symptoms, no 100% the blood tests are accurate (FSH/LH) and pursued a whole load of investigations, etc to end up discharged back to GP & yes peri (as I suspected from the beginning). Age def worked against me, 38yr when first went to GP. I do appreciate 'specialists' are only specialist in their own field but when things don't add up look at the obvious (or what I thought was obvious) rather than extreme rare diagnosis! Anyway getting there now, although sleep still an issue but going to try stopping the flaxseed & then reduce Turmeric (def helped my aches & pains but suspect the high concentration not agreeing with my stomach) if after a while that doesn't work will try the Magnesium & back to basics. It's all trial & error!! x
-
Foxy - will PM you with a reply as when I typed it out it is all thyroid related so not relevant to this thread!
Wx
-
Green glass - it's sulked in recent weeks so we had to put it into hot water. I know want one with sparkles in ;D
Slept with busy dreams
Woke to the alarm which always shocks me :-\
Slightly hung-over ::)
-
Lack of sleep is just awful - I do sympathise, hits me too, I can usually get off to sleep OK, but then will wake in the small hours and not be able to get back to sleep. Have you tried phenergan? It's an antihistamine that has sedating qualities, it's non-addictive and it works for me - find I still wake several times a night but I go straight back to sleep. My other strategies is I put the radio on really really quietly, so I have to really concentrate all my attention to hear it. Stops the brain churning and often I just drop off with that in the background. Many a time I've dropped off to 'Farming Today!' x
-
For years I had radio 2 by the bed, in the early hours I would pretend to skate to the music - I was really good ;D and by concentrating on the movements it would lull me into a state of relaxation.
I think that phernergan was prescribed for travel sickness?
-
Possibly - I've had it prescribed for sleep but you can just buy it over the counter.
-
Morning lovely ladies. Just a quick update. I had another good night, woke early a couple of times but went off minimum crazy stress.
Just took 1/4 sleeping table so am weaning myself off.
I am focusing on:
1. Not worrying/thinking about sleeping during the day. This is the big one for me. This is my bad habit.
2.Use the APPLE technique if I start to worry about it( a. be Aware of it b. Pause c. Pull back from it d. Let the thought go e. Explore my surroundings; what I see/hear etc.
3. Having my ' bad thoughts guide' Chris Helmsworth is good as it injects some humour. I just imagine him saying ' naughty naughty' and hitting the thought with a big hammer. Changes the fear into something else.
4. No caffeine at all except my morning tea.
5. Eating a bit earlier at 5:30 and not so much. Grazing more during the day.
6. I do the breathing 3 and out 6 for 10 minutes in the hours before bedtime.
Gosh it all sounds a bit regimental doesn't it , a bit OCD, but I think I need to take my stress hormones in control during the day.
Oh and also try and reduce my sugar and increase fibre ( However I am going out for a waffle with chocolate sauce and squirty cream today......
Am having very vivid dreams at the moment - lots about childhood and loosing things!
-
Yaaay Squeaker - well done you! Not OCD at all - sleep is serious business - you are right to put into action any measure you can to improve it. Keep posting! :)
-
<hands over plate< ;D lots of cream please :D
It's about acceptance. Also getting a different sleep pattern. I sleep when my brain needs to. I also sleep at night usually. People know not to poke me to see whether I'm asleep ;D. Or Else .......... I sleep in the camper when we are at sports events ;-).
-
Another good night on 1/4 tablet so going in the right direction. Woke twice but didn't get stressed.
Yes a large part of this is about changing my mindset & bad thought 'habits' and learning new more positive ones.
I am re-reading a book my Paul McKenna called ' control stress' . It is very simple (almost common sense) and you have to be honest and commit to trying to think in a different way. When my anxiety is high I don't think very logically I think and the bad habits roll back in.
One big light bulb moments was the I am not an ' insomniac' - I have been telling myself this is what I am and always will be now. That my dad was one do I will be for ever etc etc. But I realised. No. I am just a Peri-menopausal woman. Period. I have and will have hormonal ups and downs. No more,. No less. It was quite a relief.
So I had another good 6+2+1 hours last night.
My new thing for today is to build on having Chris Helmsworth telling me off what I think an anxious thought.....now it is not me but a miniature Jeremy Corbin standing 12 ft away who is pinging any anxious sleep or health anxiety related thoughts at my brain. That makes it so much easier because now I think ' not now Jeremy' or ' Shut up Jeremy' and that's it.
Best to all of you.
-
That's great squeaker99, long may it continue!! x
-
I am sleeping better with hrt with no 3am panic wakings and hours trying to sleep again. I've always struggled to fall asleep but sleep well once there.
I read an article in The Times with Tom Bradby talking about his sleep troubles and one thing in that articles has helped me.
I used to count my breaths and do yoga breathing up my front and down my spine but that lets my mind wander and isn't helpful.
In contrast what I read in the article about saying a word in my head shuts everything else out. It was a spiritual teacher who gives each sleep student their own word as he senses it but the basic one is beeja.
Sometimes I can't remember the word and go through a few to find it but even thinking nonsense words works for me!
-
My lava lamp dulls my senses .............
-
Beeja. I like that.
I have been keeping a sleep diary and am now 100% sure that it is oestrogen surges combined with the anxiety/cortisol that give me the bad nights (adding in tiredness and not having the mental tools to keep calm). When I had 4 months with no periods I never had any sleep issues and felt calm and night and on waking. When my period rears its head it is the pre-menstrual days and mid cycle (day 12 ish)
pre-ovulation that I feel more wired. I have been tracking this for over a year now and it is always day 24 or 12 when my anxiety and sleep issues arise. It would also explain why when I was put on HRT mid cycle to try and ' fix' the insomnia it made it so much worse - adding more oestrogen to the already high oestrogen.
Anyone any idea on how to lower high oestrogen at these times so I can try and manage it? I can only find 'high fibre' (berrys/nuts/green veg/mushrooms/jacket potatos) on Dr Google. Any other ideas on lowering oestrogen surges at those 'bad' times?
-
Finally weaned myself off the sleeping tablets for two nights and bam had another terrible, no sleep, stomach churning, heart pumping night. I don't calm down until the birds start singing then I have to get up. These bad nights come out of nowhere. I go to bed at 10:30pm feeling OK and then half an hour later start tossing and turning then I know I'm not going to get a wink of sleep. Feeling frustrated as I seem to be doing all the right sleep hygine stuff. I would give anything to get my sleep back on track. The only thing I haven't tried is the Sertraline.
-
Save money: good health on 7.30pm about sleep natural remedies etc, might be worth a watch!!
-
A word about sleeping tablets. I found they gave me kick back anxiety and insomnia the day after, even after taking just one, so may explain why you didn't sleep without a pill......I found them habit forming....so use with caution.
-
Whereas I had no problems at all ::). 5 tablets; 2 nights use .......... didn't need the other 3, I found them in the cupboard dated 1999 :o
I did tend to stay awake to see if was going to sleep ::). Lava lamp is sulking >:(
-
Give it a gentle poke CLKD - maybe just needs waking up.
Squeaker - tell yourself your recent sleeplessness was just a blip in response to coming off the sleepers. You had some very good nights on hardly any meds - so your body CAN get by without them. I find these nights when sleep is completely elusive very frustrating but I try to see them as something that happens to everyone from time to time & think that what otherwise passes for normal for me will return if I don't pay the really bad nights too much attention & get on with life by day as best I can. Try to relegate its grip on you if you can. Not easy, I know, but believe me you can do this & will get through. :)
-
Thanks Wrenson. I recognise this is a mental struggle and acceptable is a large part of it. The frustration is the I know hormones swings are underneath it all as I have times/months I feel lucid, energised, able to rationalise things. Then I have these dark patches when my adrenaline loop takes over and it is so hard to control it. I made the decision to start Sertraline yesterday so I will see how it goes. I have always had baseline anxiety and see similar patterns in my father so I am sure Peri has just brought it to the surface. Thanks for your words of support. :)
-
I hope steraline helps squeaker99. x
-
Little steps. It's finding something that suits that is Hard Work!
I shook the lava lamp. Didn't take any notice ::) so I let it run and eventually the wax warmed up enough - by which time I was asleep 8)
-
Sleeping better on no tablets so it shows I can do what I thought impossible.
Two days on Sertraline and I'm waking up with a one sided sinus type headache behind my eye / ear. It seems to get better once I get up.
My DH is keen that I carry on with the Sertraline to try and break my anxiety cycle.
I just have to kick my compulsive swallowing into touch now! It feels like my brain just needs something to panic about. I try the breathing, Mindfullness but when I get high anxiety days I find it so hard to override these stupid compulsive thoughts. I am hyper aware of my swallowing now. Any tips gratefully received! I am trying to be gentle with myself.
-
The sleep improvement is great news Squeaker. Well done. :)
-
Glad you're sleeping better squeaker. Not sleeping is a huge anxiety trigger for me and I've been struggling over the past few weeks with it. Last night, I had an Epsom salts bath for the 1st time and I think it did help, I managed around 5.5 hours on and off, which is the best I've been all week. I'm going to try it again tonight - I have a feeling I'm probably deficient in a few things including magnesium, so hopefully this should help.
I hear you on the compulsive swallowing thing too. That's something I've noticed about myself this week. My reflux has been really bad and I think it might be linked to that, plus anxiety. Hope the Sertraline helps for you - good luck!
-
Hi kayellvee....I only wish I knew what is going on hormonally when my anxiety is sky high. I know that insomnia feeds the anxiety but am sure there is a hormonal trigger. Frustrating that I can't find any GPs who will check this. I know the HRT I was put on mid-cycle made things worse anxiety wise but don't know if this was because I was nervous about taking it. I have just re-read a book called ' The Sleep Book' which I got a few years ago and back then didn't really ' get' - it involves embracing and inviting in your nighttime fears and anxiety (the opposite of what I was trying to do). However out of desperation I re-read it and made myself go along with it and it did work in easing my fears of not sleeping. Like you I count how many hours I've sleep and clock watch - both of which are big ' no no's! . I always wake up at least once a night since I had my son (now 11) but when I am anxious it can be every 2-3 hours or even just 10 minutes after I go to sleep! I never use to be like this in my 20s and 30s. Now I am more relaxed about sleep I think my anxious brain has turned to swallowing! Pathetic!
So I am going too continue with the Sertraline which I have had in my draw for 3 years and always baulked at using.
-
Birdy. What is your advice when I wake up at 2am and can't get back to sleep.
I have read tons on this - get up/watch TV/don't get up/do Mindfullness.
If I wake a 2/3 I can rarely go back to sleep and I find it hugely stressful.
We have no spare room and I have a snoring husband and kids in the house.
I find it so hard to calm down and feel sleepy again. Any tips?
-
I slept well yesterday. Usually it doesn't affect my sleep at night but I was a while getting off: but I knew I had slept - it was 2.45 B4 I dropped off.
I no longer worry ......... it is what it is.
-
How did you make the move from ' Shite it's 2am and I'm still awake and scaring my self whitless' to ' not caring' - was there a damascus moment ? I tell myself that I am going to be unbothered and cool about it but then once in bed , listening to my hubbie snoring and the taxis going by the adrenaline just seems to kick in. Any tips pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease.
Doc says to keep going with the Sertraline even though it is making me gippy and paranoid! He must think I need it......
-
When I can't sleep, I get up and do jobs. Washing, ironing, cleaning, admin, writing, you name it. It makes me feel anxious and tired but also productive. As opposed to just anxious and tired in bed trying to sleep. I know that the cycle will break when I'm tired enough. I didn't sleep at all for two weeks in July and it's hitting me now. I have the tv on at night so it's not so lonely. Luckily I have a big enough house not to bother my family. Hope you sleep tonight, Squeaker xx
-
One night I was awake again and said "Well it hasn't killed me yet and I manage my job". After that I slept and if I wake, it's no longer every night. The 'oh I'll be too tired for X, Y, Z' will kick the brain into negativity.
-
Hi there,
I saw your post and had to respond. Years ago I was on AD's for work related stress - I couldnt sleep at all and when I went on the AD's it got even worse for the first month .. I got the tip about phenergan which is an antihistamine and used for travel sickness from my GP ( its over the counter) If you take it before bedtime it helps you sleep like a baby.. and the next morning you wake up feeling very calm..
not for everyone and I would check with your doc but I stil use it now if my sleeping is bad.
Worth a shot?
Boiling kettle
-
Thanks for all your lovely supporting posts. Quick update on how I am doing on the sleep front.
After my ' bad run' I had a phone chat with the GP and he supported taking (half!) a sleeping
tablet for a few days to get my confidence back ( I was physically so knackered). He also said to make sure I
got out of the house and maybe did some exercise even if I felt knackered. He was right on this.
We agreed that it was my anxiety (and maybe hormones) keeping me awake so I decided to do something
positive to get out my anxiety spiral. The following have helped:
- I'm listening to the Paul McKenna ' Reduce Stress' CD and following some of his meditations and also How to Sleep book.
A lot of this is about positive thinking and getting out of negative thinking.
- I am cold showering before bed every night
- I am listening to Headspace sleep noises and stories an hour before bed and also if I wake in the night. I actually woke one night and felt quite calm and relaxed about it which was amazing for me.
I find this really useful if I wake at say 1am and am scared. I just get up and lie on the couch with my headphones on.
- Kicked caffeine apart from the morning and also alcohol.
A big thing is not to include is negative sleep related trains of thought. I try to just acknowledge thoughts then let them go and keep busy.
So I have a plan and so far it is moving me in a better direction mood and sleep wise. I know this will not be a ' quick fix'. I still clock watch which I am finding hard to stop.
Will be interesting if the improvements are simply my hormone cycle and in another 3 weeks I will be back in crazy mode!
Thanks you so much for all your supporting mails. They are much appreciated.
-
Squeaker, thanks so much for taking the time to post a comprehensive update. You are trying so hard to get this issue sorted, you deserve to kick it firmly into the past & I really hope you do. Keep sharing your strategies - those of us who are sleep challenged can never have too many tools in the box! :)
-
I found, for some reason, that no matter how badly I slept or failed to sleep, I dropped off like a rock as soon as the birds start.
I need to reset the birds. ???
-
Well done Girl! It's about breaking a habit which can play on the mind, what did we say B4 'catch 22'? ::)
As for the birds ......... I've had that too. I lay there thinking I won't sleep then find that at dawn, I'm off ::)
-
2 of my insomniac friends have had huge success with CBD oil - it's expensive and there's a good shop in London called ‘ the drug store ‘ where you can buy good quality oil. I occasionally have sleep issues and tried a droppers worth under the tongue and it definitely worked for me too . I woke briefly and then easily went back to sleep . Felt comfortably dozy when I awoke but once up felt great .
-
Apparently I'm comfortable dozy most days ;-)
I have had busy dreams lately which don't help how I feel when waking :(
-
My GP's nurse practitioner just put me on Trazodone two weeks ago. So far, she's been the most helpful medical professional in this past year of insomnia and constant anxiety! Been sleeping much better now. I sometimes still pop awake randomly, but I'm able to go back to sleep with 15 minutes to an hour tops. I don't feel so wired anymore. I feel a bit tired still and yawn a lot. Well, I did that before, too, but I'm not feeling like I have gallons of caffeine running through my veins.
It comes prescribed at 50mg at the lowest, but you can get a pill splitter and go lower. I tried 12.5mg on my first night, since it was a work night, to make sure I could get out of bed on time just in case. I got about 5 hours that night? Which is better than what I was getting before, which was zero or close to it. The dreams are a bit more vivid, but that's okay. It might also help anxiety symptoms. It did for me the first week, but it's come back again. At least I can sleep, though. That's progress. Anyway, 25mg seems to be the sweet spot for me, and it's what the sleep disorder center recommended as a starting point anyway. Not too groggy the next day, but still able to pull 7-8 hours most nights. Still some interruptions, but I'm able to go back to sleep when I wasn't before.
Might be worth a try? Unfortunately, nobody even recommended it to me! Except my GP's nurse practitioner. The actual OBGYN nurse practitioner didn't even think of it. Go figure. You'd think she of all people would have offered it to me?
Also, don't be afraid that it's a "sleeping pill". It's actually an old school antidepressent that's prescribed off-label for insomnia. It's not like Ambien where you get addicted or start sleep walking and doing weird things you can't remember. At low doses, it's also not that useful as an antidepressant. Some tapering off will be required to get off it, of course, but it's not like it's Effexor or Paxil.