Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Personal Experiences => Topic started by: Jules53 on February 28, 2019, 05:11:10 PM
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Hi ladies
Sorry it's me again!
I have been on Oestrodose (1-2 pumps a day) and Utrogestan 100mg vaginally every night (both for nearly a month now) as I had to change from Femseven Conti due to them being discontinued.
It has been a bit of a rollercoaster and I'm still trying to sort the right dose of Oestrodose. I have had asthma like symptoms on and off , where I can't take a good deep breath and have been very itchy. Anyway, the last few days the itching has been unbearable and was so bad today as my lips and inside of my mouth was also very itchy, which made me panicky. It has taken 2 antihistamines to improve the itching and I'm still a bit itchy. I spoke to the doctor and he said I could either stop taking it or change to another make. I have been reading past posts about ladies not getting on with Oestrodose and getting on better with the Oestrogel brand. I have ordered the Oestrogel brand from the chemist but it won't be in until tomorrow. I am very nervous about using it though.I will try and make an appointment with a lady doctor who specialises in HRT tomorrow.
Has anyone else had experience of this with Oestrodose or could the itching be from fluctuating hormone levels? I'm really at a loss now and so fed up as this is my 4th type of hrt😥.
Any advice much appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Jules x
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Hi there's been lots of debate about the difference between Oestradose and Oestrogel and I don't think there is any conclusion reached.
The only thing which somebody pointed out was that they have a different carrying agent. X
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Thanks Dotty. The itching is unbearable still. Really don't know what to do.
Thanks, as always, for your reply xx
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Does it state that itching is a side effect on the leaflet information that comes with the Oestradose? x
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Hi
Yes it's down as a side effect. I have read past posts that other ladies have suffered from itching xx
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Hurdity did a lot of research regarding Oestrodose versus Oestrogel - they are made by the same company so are identical. The only difference is the labelling and packaging.
To find out if the oestrogen gel is the cause of your allergic reaction you need to stop using the HRT altogether for a week or two.
I'm not sure what progesterone you are using but I did get a nasty itchy rash from using Utrogestan.
DG x
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Thanks for the reply Daning Girl.
I'm using 100mg of Utrogestan every night vaginally. I did wonder whether it may be the Utrogestan but the intense itching started just after I put the Oestrodose on this morning. I'm worried about just stopping the HRT as all my symptoms might come back with avengeance and anxiety was the worst one😥.
At a loss about what to do. I'm going to leave the Utrogestan for to fight too. I will try and get in with the doctor in the morning. Maybe I could change to Sandrena gel instead? Do you know anything about Sandrena?
Thanks.
Jules x
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I got itching with any continuous HRT I tried!! I was always better on sequential HRT. The HRT regime I used that gave the least side effects with was the Mirena with Oestrogen gel. DG x.
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I get a reaction to Oestrodose, the itching was so bad last time I had the misfortune to end up with it, I looked like my shoulders had been attacked by a stray cat in the night.
Every time I have used Oestrodose I have had the same, I don't get the problem with Estrogel.
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Thanks very much ladies.
Tinkerbell, what you are saying about Oestrodose fills me with hope that I will be OK with Oestrogel. I'm a bit reluctant to stop the gel as I'm feeling much calmer and the shortness of breath I was experiencing seems to have stopped today 😁.
Will keep you posted x Thanks again x
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Hi Jules53
Sorry to hear about your itching with estradiol gel.
Just to clarify - Oestrogel and Oestrodose as supplied to the UK market from Besins, Belgium ( France?) are exactly the same, as Dancinggirl pointed out. I wrote to the manufacturers. There are no different carrier ingredients. If you check the leaflet if it says Besins France (or Belgium - I keep forgetting!) then it's all the same stuff.
There are several explanation for your itching as Dancinggirl says. To explain further, one of the ingredients of the gel - triethanolamine (trolamine) - can cause itching in some women. It is used in lots of cosmetic products so if you are allergic to this best to find out which other products it contains. Also itching is a common symptom of menopause and low oestrogen so if this continues if you stop the HRT then that is not to blame. Also as Dancinggirl says some women are allergic to Utrogestan.
I would do as she says and stop the HRT altogether and then introduce one at a time.
I get a reaction to Oestrodose, the itching was so bad last time I had the misfortune to end up with it, I looked like my shoulders had been attacked by a stray cat in the night.
Every time I have used Oestrodose I have had the same, I don't get the problem with Estrogel.
As they are the same product Tinkerbell - if this has consistently happened several times then please please report this to the MHRA under their yellow card scheme as the manufacturers info is that the two products are identical. Also keep the bottle and maybe send to the manufacturers? I had extensive and detailed correspondence with Besins and reported their response on another thread. The only explanation for a difference is the unlikely event that one of the companies in the (long) supply chain has obtained Oestrodose from elswehere in the world (outside the EU) which has a slightly different composition, and has illegally repackaged it as Besins gel from Belgium ( France?). if this has happened they would want to know I'm sure!
Jules I hope you sort out the cause of your itching and it settles down :)
Hurdity x
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Thanks very much for your detailed reply Hurdity that's all very interesting and helpful. I'm off to the doctor's again this morning so will show your comments to her.
I didn't take my Utro last night either. I ache all over this morning and feel quite nauseous. I am still itching and my lips and forehead are feeling very itchy/tingly so I'm beginning to think my problem is fluctuating hormones/low estrogen which is making me itch.
I'll see what the doctor thinks. She is the expert on menopause at the practice so that's good. Will let you know what she says.
Thanks again x
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I'm sorry they are different I had terrible reaction to oestrodose and can never take but ok on oestrogel. My pharmacist rang the company and there is something different in them. It's the same with the tablets I was allergic to both had awful itchy rash and the consultant says it the fillers they use. I have reported this with the yellow card and it's funny they keep emailing asking how I am and what symptoms I had I wish more women would report it!!
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Good luck at the docs Jules x
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Thanks Dotty x
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A quick update after my visit to the doctor again.
The lady doctor I saw is the expert on all things menopause at my surgery and she is doing lots of training so that was a breath of fresh air to hear! She is doing it as she said there are so many ladies who are suffering and she wants to be as clued up as she can be. She is also going through it herself and is on HRT. The only problem is she is going over to Africa to do volunteer medical work for 3 months😥.
Anyway, she gave me the choice of the gel or an estrogen patch. She said she couldn't be sure whether it was ths gel or a hormonal imbalance causing the itching. The pharmacist could only get the Oestrodose in when I popped in to see her before my doc's appointment so I went for the patch. I have Evorel 50 patches. I stuck one on this morning so will see how it goes. The itching finally stopped this afternoon 😁 and I can actually feel that I am getting estrogen into my system. I will use the Utrogestan again tonight and see if I have any itching in the morning, though I'm quite confident it was the gel or my own hormonal imbalance that was causing me a problem.
Thanks again for all of you advice. I'll keep you posted on progress.
Jules x
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Donna paul - you are one of a few women on the forum who can't use Oestrodose but are OK with Oestrogel.
If you fall into this category you must ask your GP to write Oestrogel specifically on your prescription and also mention it to the pharmacist as they can make a note too.
In theory there shouldn't be any difference at all, and I for one can swop and change with no noticeable difference. However, it is what it is and you need to have the product you can tolerate.
I don't think I am the only one who's had problems with oestrodose as when I did my thread other women agreed. I know my pharmacist really struggles to get oestrogel so got 3 the last time but said to me recently I must give him plenty of notice when they are used. Also Dr Newson the menopause dr who's often on telly say she only prescribed oestrogel! She says it's a lot weaker!
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Jules...sounds a good plan 👍🏻
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All I can say is that I have been on estrogel/Oestrodose nearly three years now and every time I use Oestrodose I get itching in the area I apply it and my symptoms come back. I get upset when told that there is no difference as as I am not imagining it, great if it works for others though as hopefully it makes it easier for me to source the estrogel.
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This saga runs on and on! We are going round and round in circles over this matter and I am having to repeat myself!
I have no wish to upset anyone but faced with continual speculation, rumour and hearsay about the composition of these two products, as a scientist I was puzzled and wanted to establish the facts – to help clear this matter up for the benefit of gel users. No-one had written to the manufacturers to find out so this is what I did.
Whatever anyone's individual experiences (which are of course valid) the fact remains that I have it first hand in writing from Besins that there are not two products but one, the only difference being in the outer package (the canister pump-pack), and possibly the box, and the leaflet. The 0.06% estradiol gel product produced in Belgium is named Oestrogel for the UK market (and maybe elsewhere) and Oestrodose for France and some other EU countries. Besins have manufacturing plants for some of their products in Spain and Thailand but the information from Besins is that all the Oestrogel supplied to the UK market however it is packaged or named, is made in the Belgium plant. This is reflected in the leaflets supplied with all the UK Besins estradiol gels.
As discussed on the original thread I started after I had heard from Besins, we have no reason to believe otherwise unless there is something fraudulent going on in the supply chain – which would be extremely difficult to ascertain – for example I have several times written to at least two maybe more of the parallel importers but not had a reply although I always get replies from Besins.
It has been suggested many times that anyone who consistently gets an allergic reaction to one product rather than the other, must report this to the MHRA and also to Besins with the batch number, and should follow this up ie whether there is some fault with the product or that it is not as it says.
As for what Louise Newson says – well either she is wrong, or Besins are lying (to me), or she knows something that others don't ie something fishy is going on that no-one else knows about (in which case the leaflets would also be wrong....).. I would be interested to know what she basis that assertion on – that Oestrodose is weaker. As Stellajane says – most women happily use either product and don't even notice that they are using one rather than another. If it was weaker ie always a different product, then they would experience a resumption of symptoms on one not the other. If the gel is 0.06 % then that's what it is – and the list of carrier ingredients is also exactly the same.
I hope all of you who are using the gels find a dose that suits you so that you feel better most of the time - you have to do what's right for you :)
Hurdity x
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A quick update after my visit to the doctor again.
The lady doctor I saw is the expert on all things menopause at my surgery and she is doing lots of training so that was a breath of fresh air to hear! She is doing it as she said there are so many ladies who are suffering and she wants to be as clued up as she can be. She is also going through it herself and is on HRT. The only problem is she is going over to Africa to do volunteer medical work for 3 months😥.
Anyway, she gave me the choice of the gel or an estrogen patch. She said she couldn't be sure whether it was ths gel or a hormonal imbalance causing the itching. The pharmacist could only get the Oestrodose in when I popped in to see her before my doc's appointment so I went for the patch. I have Evorel 50 patches. I stuck one on this morning so will see how it goes. The itching finally stopped this afternoon 😁 and I can actually feel that I am getting estrogen into my system. I will use the Utrogestan again tonight and see if I have any itching in the morning, though I'm quite confident it was the gel or my own hormonal imbalance that was causing me a problem.
Thanks again for all of you advice. I'll keep you posted on progress.
Jules x
Thanks for the update Jules53.
If the itching disappears then maybe report this to the MHRA as a potential side effect of the Oestrogel? Not sure if you are supposed to report side effects that are already listed in the leaflet? Maybe not?
Good luck with the patch and hope it does the trick for you. Yes please keep us updated :)
Hurdity x
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Thanks Hurdity. Well the itching is back today😥. I'm on the Evorel 50 patch and used the Utrogestan vaginally last night.
I felt really calm when I woke up but as the day has gone on I am feeling so itchy! Have put half a patch on now instead of a full one and still feel so itchy. It obviously wasn't the Oestrodose after all that.
Not sure whether I need more Estrogen or less. I'd really appreciate some advice please. Could it be fluctuating estrogen levels or the Utrogestan which is causing the problem?
On the plus side all the anxiety has gone
😁.
Thanks in advance xx
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Hi Jules were you ok on Femseven ? If you were, then it's unlikely to be the oestrogen as it's the same in the Oestrogel and in the patch. By halving the patch you are not getting the same amount of oestrogen so its very likely that your levels will be dropping. X
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Hi Dotty
Yes I was OK on Femseven, although the anxiety was starting to creep back through, but there was no itching.
Should I go back up to a full patch, or should I increase on that to 1 and a half patches (75) do you think? Should I also miss the Utrogestan tonight to see if it's that?
Thank you X
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Thanks Annamuller. How long did it take for your levels to even out and which HRT are you on?
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Okay, so why has every bottle of Oestrodose I have had been thinner in consistency than the estrogel, it feels different when she rub it between your fingers too, it dries quicker and my VA and palpitations return.
I shall certainly report it if I have a return of symptoms when I have the misfortune to end up with the Oestrodose again.
Yes this debate does goes round and round, although if someone else feels like me on a post I shall continue to comment on my experience with it and those who love the Oestrodose can do the same.
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Thanks Annamuller. I really don't know what to do for the best but will plough on for a bit. Maybe it's not for me either but I have to try as my anxiety has definitely got better.
Thanks for your replies x
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I agree! It's awful. I'm too scared to try and manage without HRT at the moment as the Femseven worked very well for me and I wish they hadn't discontinued it😥. I know there are thousands of women suffering because they have had to change.
I'm so glad your anxiety has gone. Do you mind me asking how many years into menopause you are? Thanks
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Ok, thank you. I'm 2 and a half years post menopause so I hope it all ends soon🤞 x
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This debate may go on and on and people should not be made to feel as though they are making it up. I know I was allergic to something in oesrodose like I was with the fillers in the tablets. I agree that oesrodose is a lot thinner constituency and smells different and I agree with the menopause Dr newson when she says it is weaker version. My hot flushes and aniexty came back with a veganance to. We should not feel that we can't say it is different as to some people it is even my family noticed how different it made me!
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I certainly don't rubbish Oestrodose, I totally accept that lots are happy with it and that is good. I wish I got on with it as it would make life easier as Estrogel is more difficult to source, fortunately I have an independent pharmacy close to work that seems to be happy to order it in for me, I just hope they don't get taken over by Boots.
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Hi Tinkerbell, you must report it if you feel they are different. Maybe Oestrodose's import route is different, longer? The storage time and conditions are also important, particularly in the case of a hydroalcoholic gel.
annamuller - these are important considerations and have been discusssed at length on the main thread about this issue which I started following my correspondence with Besins. In particular they commented on stability studies at different temperatures for the lifetime of the product but had no control over the product once it left the factory. However it would have to remain within its sell-by date so presumably cannot be stored for too long. Interestingly it is very obvious how gels differ in consistency with different temepratures - stands to reason really so even the same canister will appear runnier one day than others - I find this with my testosterone gel (in a thiiner tube or sachet) - is very much affectied by ambient temp - in warmer temps becoming quite runny and almost dripping out of the tube, when cooler the gel is much stiffer. This must affect the drying time and therefore absorption of the product into my skin.
I'm going to update the other thread when I've found it and will link to it, so if you are interested you can read it. It's pretty long and goes off around the world on some weird and sometimes barely relevent tangents, including perhaps bordering on the realms of conspiracy - but you will get the picture! The main extracts from the Besins correspondence is in the first few posts. ::)
Hurdity x
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Here is the link to the long-running Oestrodose/Oestrogel thread and I have updated the info following discussions with Dr Louise Newson. :)
https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,40586.0.html
Hurdity x