Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Personal Experiences => Topic started by: racjen on January 30, 2019, 01:23:27 PM
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I've been on here for a while, but given that I seem to be hitting a complete brick wall with medical professionals and getting worse rather than better I'm posting my long miserable story again, in case anyone has any idea what else I can do.
I had chemotherapy for breast cancer (triple negative so not hormone driven) in 2016; at that point I was 50 but still having reasonably regular periods, but the chemo brought on an immediate menopause. After about 6 months this resulted in rapidly worsening depression as my estrogen stores dropped to almost zero. High doses of estrogen gradually got this up to around 1000pmol and my depression improved a lot; however, when I started utrogestan (after about 3 or 4 months) I immediately developed crippling anxiety, always first thing in the morning and tailing off around lunchtime. Changing to a different progesterone made no difference, neither has the more recent suggestion from consultant of taking 3 months off it altogether. It has got worse and worse, every single morning and now becoming more generalised(which I think is a learned response as it's become my body's default setting).
I was also prescribed testosterone, but this seems to make me depressed although for the first few days I felt a lot better on it. I seem to have a big problem with sensitivity to drugs of all sorts - have tried 8 or 9 different types of AD, propranolol, pregabalin - all of them result in much worse depression (and I mean the suicide plan kind of depression). So I can't even get symptomatic relief - there just seems to be no way out.
Despite the fact that I never ever suffered from anxiety of this type before peri-menopause, I've now been told, by both a psychiatrist and the consultant at Poole Menopause Clinic, that I have an underlying anxiety disorder which has been exascerbated by hormonal issues. The implication being it's basically a mental health issue. From my own experience and from reading all of your experiences I know that this is not the case, but I just don't know what to do now - the Menopause Clinic have written me off (and to be frank I wouldn't want to go back there anyway, I've lost confidence in this guy completely).
My choices now appear to be - stay on the high dose of estrogen and cyclical utrogestan I was on before and try to tough it out, but I have no life left, lost my job and have no desire to socialise so this feels pretty grim. Stop all HRT and just see what happens - this one is scary because I know that I need estrogen to not feel depressed, or something else I have no idea is out there right now. Please help someone, I have two daughters and I'm seriously worried that I won't be able to resist the suicidal urges if this goes on much longer.
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Hi Racjen
Sorry I can't offer you no help as I'm in same boat regarding the anxiety never in my life did I suffer anxiety until afull yr after my periods stopped ( so really that means my anxiety started right at the start of post menopause)
Anxiety is the worse side effect of menopause for me , I'm 51 yrs old post menopause last 4 yrs and anxiety is awful ..
Plus I'm using hrt patch at minute waiting on appointment to attend hrt clinic st the minute ..
Someone will be along soon to help you out more than I can but just wanted to send you a hug 🤗
Kaz x
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Hi Racjen - me again ::)- please don't feel my post is sharp or there are too many questions - it is just the way I analyse things (I have to analyse things for my job to provide solutions and I break things into chunks :)) and it will probably help the other ladies too who would want know so they can suggest stuff. You need to be specific.
"high doses of oestrogen" - what did you take and for how long?
Utrogesten - how were you taking it? When you changed - which progesterone did you change to?
In the timeframe at what point was the testosterone introduced? What was prescribed and what dose?
Comment = Lots of us are aware of the suicidal depression associated with meno and if you never had it before meno I think it unlikely to be underlying problem that you have always had but defo to do with meno.
Forget choices at the moment - the info above needs considered. Do you have the time or the patience today to tell us? Don't worry if you don't. We will all still here when you do! Once we have the what and when, then we could move on to "how did you feel at each point"! XXX
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Racjen this is a bit of a shot in the dark but could you be experiencing chronic fatigue, or something similar. What with your cancer diagnosis and treatment your mind and body must be exhausted.
I am sure hormones will play a part in what you feel but it's not always the full story.
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Hello ladies,
I was wondering the same, Shadyglade, maybe even PTSD.
Conolly X
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Hi Racjen we've spoken before, sorry you're still not feeling any better. Have you considered reducing your oestrogen, I ask because high doses always make me feel worse and optimum dose (for me) seems to be (evorel) 50. I know you may not feel like it, but it would be a very easy thing tying try and you could see pretty quickly if you felt better on a lower dose.
This would also mean you could take less progesterone (this is the one I struggle with). I take it 100 for only 7 days and find this manageable (I.e., I only get a few bad days withdrawal).
Finally testosterone, I too found high doses made me depressed. However, by taking just 3 petit poi's blobs a week (under the soles of my feet) I minimise side effects and get the benefits .
Apologies if I've said all this before but it's a system that works for me and I really feel for you right now xx
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by both a psychiatrist and the consultant at Poole Menopause Clinic, that I have an underlying anxiety disorder which has been exascerbated by hormonal issues. The implication being it's basically a mental health issue. From my own experience and from reading all of your experiences I know that this is not the case, but I just don't know what to do now
You have been seen by professionals. Who have your medical records to hand and who have discussed your symptoms. What don't you believe?
Despite sharing experiences here, none of us are medically trained. I can't understand why you were given chemotherapy if your breast disease wasn't hormonally driven ......... nor why you were suddenly into meno symptoms.
How were your anxiety levels prior to your surgery, apart from what would be 'normal' worries pre-operation? I have been a worrier since age 3 when I had my first panic attack :'(.
Have you tried yoga? Many years ago I worked with a Consultant who recommended it for patients who suffered back problems. It is about taking time for yourself in a safe environment, either with a 1-1 teacher or in a group. As well as needing to practice at home, to keep the body supple. Which means taking time out to calm the body down front the top of the head to the toes. It takes focus.
If you are feeling suicidal then hormones are impacting on your mental health. How do you know where your hormones are, i.e. oestrogen levels? You may not require any HRT at this point but unless you stop with the support of your GP you won't know whether your body is flying a bike or riding a kite.
Have you considered keeping to one thread so that responses don't become lost? Also have you contacted the Surgeon who did your breast operation? Or an endocrinologist - I thought about this in the early hours thinking about you ::)
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Hi Racjen - me again ::)- please don't feel my post is sharp or there are too many questions - it is just the way I analyse things (I have to analyse things for my job to provide solutions and I break things into chunks :)) and it will probably help the other ladies too who would want know so they can suggest stuff. You need to be specific.
"high doses of oestrogen" - what did you take and for how long?
Utrogesten - how were you taking it? When you changed - which progesterone did you change to?
In the timeframe at what point was the testosterone introduced? What was prescribed and what dose?
Comment = Lots of us are aware of the suicidal depression associated with meno and if you never had it before meno I think it unlikely to be underlying problem that you have always had but defo to do with meno.
Forget choices at the moment - the info above needs considered. Do you have the time or the patience today to tell us? Don't worry if you don't. We will all still here when you do! Once we have the what and when, then we could move on to "how did you feel at each point"! XXX
High doses of estrogen - I've been on Evorel patches all the way through this, dose got as high as 2 x 100 patch (twice weekly) - after a couple of months at that dose blood test showed my level was over 2000pmol so dropped back down to 100 patch. I've been taking it at that dose since then (around 6 months) and seem to be maintaining level of around 1000pmol.
Utrogestan - 100mg vaginally for 10 days every month; also tried levonorgestrel in form of FemSeven patches, and Mirena - even worse, only lasted 3 days before I had to have it removed.
Testosterone - originally prescribed Testogel, pea sized blob, at same time as estrogen, but I realise that that early on it had no effect because my estrogen level wasn't high enough. I tried it again once my estrogen level was getting into the high 100s, this time Testim. Amazing result for about a week - feeling of well-being, energy, anxiety reducing, incredible effect on my libido - then it all just stopped and was replaced by depression. Have tried again twice since then with Tostran, both times the depression starts within 24 hours.
PTSD - I had EMDR treatment with the Crisis Team, which helped a lot with post-cancer depression and distressing memories, but had no impact on the anxiety whatsoever. They were of the opinion that it's hormonal too, said they see quite a few women in a similar state since menopause clinics have been closing down, but the message doesn't seem to be getting through.
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You mention distressing memories which will have impacted on your mental health. Do you feel that you were rushed into the surgical intervention?
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by both a psychiatrist and the consultant at Poole Menopause Clinic, that I have an underlying anxiety disorder which has been exascerbated by hormonal issues. The implication being it's basically a mental health issue. From my own experience and from reading all of your experiences I know that this is not the case, but I just don't know what to do now
You have been seen by professionals. Who have your medical records to hand and who have discussed your symptoms. What don't you believe?
Despite sharing experiences here, none of us are medically trained. So anxiety disorder maybe the basis of your problem exacerbated by hormonal upheaval. I can't understand why you were given chemotherapy if your breast disease wasn't hormonally driven ......... nor why you were suddenly into meno symptoms.
How were your anxiety levels prior to your surgery, apart from what would be 'normal' worries pre-operation? I have been a worrier since age 3 when I had my first panic attack :'(.
Have you tried yoga? Many years ago I worked with a Consultant who recommended it for patients who suffered back problems. It is about taking time for yourself in a safe environment, either with a 1-1 teacher or in a group. As well as needing to practice at home, to keep the body supple. Which means taking time out to calm the body down front the top of the head to the toes. It takes focus.
If you are feeling suicidal then it is a mental problem made worse by hormonal upheaval. How do you know where your hormones are, i.e. oestrogen levels? You may not require any HRT at this point but unless you stop with the support of your GP you won't know whether your body is flying a bike or riding a kite.
CLKD, this is a really confusing post. We've had many discussions on here about the difference between pre-existing anxiety disorders(from which you suffer) and those brought about by menopause, and it's not that difficult to tell the difference, the main giveaway being that if you never suffered from anxiety before menopause it almost certainly has been caused by that. I have never been a worrier in the past.
Breast cancer can be hormonally driven (most commonly either estrogen or progesterone or both), or not, in which case it's called triple negative. It's still cancer, in fact it's a more aggressive, harder to treat form of cancer for which stronger types of chemotherapy are given - these drugs destroy the ovaries. I know that my hormone levels were non-existent as I had blood tests straight afterwards which showed that, and there's no reason to think at my age that they'll recover.
I go to a yoga class twice a week and practice on my own every day; I also meditate and use relaxation CDs.
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You mention distressing memories which will have impacted on your mental health. Do you feel that you were rushed into the surgical intervention?
No, absolutely not. Going through cancer as a single parent of two teenage daughters is a very distressing experience which left me with upsetting memories, simple as that.
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Hello racjen,
What drugs did you take during chemotherapy, if you don't mind me asking?
Conolly X
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Perinowpost and racjen ;) I think you may be onto something perinowpost about "high levels of oestgrogen" but it might be helpful to know which oestrogen method and what dose racjen?
CKLD - racjen said no high anxiety before meno and to be honest her GP's and consultant's have been far from helpful plus monitoring hormone levels which is done through bloods is far from reliable. Whatever is happening is most definitely as you say hormonal upheaval but as has been said many times before on the forum (which means I am going to disagree with your "kite riding" comment ;) What the bloods say/what the symptoms say and reactions to various treatments can vary enormously. Things are never really that clear cut. One small tweak that you wouldn't think would make any difference in treatment can make a life changing result happen.
Racjen has asked for suggestions but personally I think we all need to be clear on what she has tried, to what level and what actually happened. I don't want anyone to take offence - all comments are helpful in some way but I found the more confused and desperate I was - clear specifics were easier to get to grips with than generalisations.
Until she tells us her current doses- it is possible that the suggestions will cause more confusion??? :-X
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With no support? No family, friends. No families of your daughters to talk with whilst you were going through surgery? Who looked after them? It adds to any stress and anxiety already present with raising children, particularly being a single parent.
I was offered the opportunity of talking with other patients at similar stages but didn't want to engage in case they didn't survive. I didn't want to think about where I might end up.
There wasn't a dedicated breast nurse either but I had good support from the Consultant, Oncologist and their Staff. Could you go and discuss with the Staff at the Hospital or see if there is a Breast Nurse who could listen, i.e. start at the point where your body was pushed into menopause? Explaining it as you have, it seems like you've seen lots of medics who have little knowledge of how the various surgeries can impact.
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No offense.
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Hi racjen - thanks for the info - you were posting when I was posting and we clashed!
So - just to be clear
(1) 200 on an everol patch is very high - but my observation would be that it did it's job to bring your oestrogen up from nothing to a good level.
(2) - you are now on 100 patch with 100mg Utrogestan 10 days per month vaginally on a cycle with a bleed - yes? How long have you continued this?
(3) Testosterone - it would appear that you are right in your assumption that it may disagree wit you, if you have tried 3 kinds BUT it depends on what symptoms you are trying to get under control as to whether or not testosterone is helpful or not.
Ok so - what are your current list of symptoms and are anxiety and depression the ones that would come top of any list?
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It's find to have a duvet day too - I had many hours laying on the sofa simply to survive. 3 cats and a dog cuddle close or on top of me and we would doze the days away. Give yourself some slack, not being listened to is difficult to deal with. Do you have another appt. with the Clinic?
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You may have said already but which symptom would you like to ease first?
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With no support? No family, friends. No families of your daughters to talk with whilst you were going through surgery? Who looked after them? It adds to any stress and anxiety already present with raising children, particularly being a single parent.
I was offered the opportunity of talking with other patients at similar stages but didn't want to engage in case they didn't survive. I didn't want to think about where I might end up.
There wasn't a dedicated breast nurse either but I had good support from the Consultant, Oncologist and their Staff. Could you go and discuss with the Staff at the Hospital or see if there is a Breast Nurse who could listen, i.e. start at the point where your body was pushed into menopause? Explaining it as you have, it seems like you've seen lots of medics who have little knowledge of how the various surgeries can impact.
I've talked to Breast Care Nurses, oncologist, MacMillan counsellor - none of them really seem to have a clue about the role of menopause after cancer, hard to believe but true.
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With no support? No family, friends. No families of your daughters to talk with whilst you were going through surgery? Who looked after them? It adds to any stress and anxiety already present with raising children, particularly being a single parent.
I was offered the opportunity of talking with other patients at similar stages but didn't want to engage in case they didn't survive. I didn't want to think about where I might end up.
There wasn't a dedicated breast nurse either but I had good support from the Consultant, Oncologist and their Staff. Could you go and discuss with the Staff at the Hospital or see if there is a Breast Nurse who could listen, i.e. start at the point where your body was pushed into menopause? Explaining it as you have, it seems like you've seen lots of medics who have little knowledge of how the various surgeries can impact.
A few friends came and went but most of the time it was just me and my 16 year old daughter; the older one was away at University during my treatment. No family nearby, two closest friends buggered off and abandoned me - it was a very difficult time.
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:bighug: people get scared of the word 'cancer' ........ you have us now >wave<
There doesn't seem to be any joined up thinking in the NHS these days. When I worked a patient's needs would be shared with all the potential Specialities. If people attended with a problem that would require future treatment, the Consultant would attend Clinic even if the patient had to wait a while, that means that they didn't need to make another trip.
Now one often doesn't see the Consultant at a follow up appt., the patient is referred back to the GP ....... so any potential questions can't be put to the Consultant after intervention.
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Hi racjen - thanks for the info - you were posting when I was posting and we clashed!
So - just to be clear
(1) 200 on an everol patch is very high - but my observation would be that it did it's job to bring your oestrogen up from nothing to a good level.
(2) - you are now on 100 patch with 100mg Utrogestan 10 days per month vaginally on a cycle with a bleed - yes? How long have you continued this?
(3) Testosterone - it would appear that you are right in your assumption that it may disagree wit you, if you have tried 3 kinds BUT it depends on what symptoms you are trying to get under control as to whether or not testosterone is helpful or not.
Ok so - what are your current list of symptoms and are anxiety and depression the ones that would come top of any list?
Yes, now on Evorel 100. The utrogestan was included for about 9 months, then consultant suggested a 3 month break to see if that made things clearer. That 3 months is now up, with no change except that I'd say I've been gradually getting more anxious.
By far the most troublesome symptom is the anxiety - I'd say that the depression i'm feeling now is more a reaction to the continuation of this than down to low estrogen, anyone would feel depressed after well over a year of acute anxiety. Insomnia is the other big one but that seems to have settled down recently (maybe in the absence of Utrogestan - bit worried it'll return when I restart it). As far as testosterone goes, again it was to combat the anxiety mainly, as I've read a lot about testosterone deficiency in women causing anxiety. Not so bothered about libido, but the brief general sense of well-being was nice - had forgotten how that felt.
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What you need is relief and the option to feel well again. My anxiety was phobia-led. Depression ......... :-\ but it was grinding at the time.
When I went to the GP I wanted a cure yesterday :-\ .........
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racjen - I have a couple of other questions. :)
When you were using the Utrogestan on a cycle - how was the bleed - heavy - spotting - and number of days? You have a womb right?
Now you have stopped it - any bleed or menstrual type symptoms?
Can you talk me through the cycle of symptoms as they came and went, with your cycle when you were using the Utrogestan? Were some more prevalent on the oestrogen only, did some get worse (was the insomnia worse or better at times or no different) or some get less on the utrogestan and how were you on the bleed for example?
Someone said you had contacted Dr Currie - are they right and if so how long ago was that? At what point in your journey were you and what did she say?
You had your breast cancer treatment in 2016 and then how long after did you start any form of hrt and what did they start you on, if you can remember? xx
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racjen - I have a couple of other questions. :)
When you were using the Utrogestan on a cycle - how was the bleed - heavy - spotting - and number of days? You have a womb right?
Now you have stopped it - any bleed or menstrual type symptoms?
Can you talk me through the cycle of symptoms as they came and went, with your cycle when you were using the Utrogestan? Were some more prevalent on the oestrogen only, did some get worse (was the insomnia worse or better at times or no different) or some get less on the utrogestan and how were you on the bleed for example?
Someone said you had contacted Dr Currie - are they right and if so how long ago was that? At what point in your journey were you and what did she say?
You had your breast cancer treatment in 2016 and then how long after did you start any form of hrt and what did they start you on, if you can remember? xx
Oh gosh, I'm going to struggle to remember some of this. Utrogestan on a cycle - I'd say the bleed was 4 - 5 days, heavy to start with but nothing remarkable. Now I'm not on it I've been bleeding very lightly constantly for the last month or so. No period pain though.
As far as cyclical symptoms went, usually would feel quite a lot better mood wise for the first 3 - 4 days of utrogestan, then gradually I'd go downhill until I was struggling to make it to day 10. After that I'd have the usual miserable withdrawal for 2 - 3 days and then bleed. Anxiety was unchanged throughout all of this. Insomnia - stupidly I didn't make a note of any pattern and in my head it's completely random, but I suspect it was worse whilst on U.
I contacted Dr.Currie to ask specifically about my problem with testosterone, so that would've been early 2018 I think. She had no idea why it would make me depressed and was unable to offer any advice. Started HRT at my own request in june 2017 - my GP was hopeless, didn't have a clue what to prescribe so randomly put me on Elleste Sequi (I think). Most bizarre thing was that when I started the progesterone phase of that I suddenly felt better and more myself than I have in years. That lasted one cycle and then disappeared, and the low level of estrogen made no difference at all, hence the change to Evorel patches which obviously are more alterable.
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Sorry, somebody (forget who) asked what chemo drugs I had. I had TAC, which is T – Docetaxel (also called Taxotere) A – Doxorubicin (also called Adriamycin) C – Cyclophosphamide. Also had stuff to stimulate white blood cell production with every cycle, which was possibly worse than the chemo itself, but the name escapes me right now.
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Thank you, racjen.
Have you been tested for Vitamin D? Are you taking supplements? Sorry if you have already mention it.
Conolly X
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I take magnesium and high strength general vitamin supplement. Haven't been tested for Vit D, would that be a good idea?
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Dear Racjen,
I've been thinking about you this evening and I've done a bit of looking around. If you go on the British Menopause Society website, you'll see that they are holding a study day (aimed at nurses) on 29th April 2019 entitled “Beyond Cancer, Living with an Induced Menopauseâ€. This is exactly your situation - yes? I wonder if you could contact the BMS and see if you could get hold of the course material (you'd probably have to pay for it) or even attend it? Presumably the course/lectures are being given by a health professional. Could you get their name and see if you could consult with them? I wonder if this could be if any help to your specific situation which no-one has been able to get to grips with so far xxx
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I take magnesium and high strength general vitamin supplement. Haven't been tested for Vit D, would that be a good idea?
I think so, according to this article http://cab.unime.it/journals/index.php/MJCP/article/view/1740/pdf
Conolly X
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Dear Racjen,
I've been thinking about you this evening and I've done a bit of looking around. If you go on the British Menopause Society website, you'll see that they are holding a study day (aimed at nurses) on 29th April 2019 entitled “Beyond Cancer, Living with an Induced Menopauseâ€. This is exactly your situation - yes? I wonder if you could contact the BMS and see if you could get hold of the course material (you'd probably have to pay for it) or even attend it? Presumably the course/lectures are being given by a health professional. Could you get their name and see if you could consult with them? I wonder if this could be if any help to your specific situation which no-one has been able to get to grips with so far xxx
Hello AgathaC,
Brilliant idea! Racjen's experience might be of interest for them as well.
Conolly X
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Racjen,
This article corroborates that anxiety hits hard women who had never experienced it before menopause.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3641149/
Conolly X
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Hi Racjen
I'm so sorry you're poorly again - I have been thinking of you.
I've suffered from anxiety my whole life, but menopause anxiety feels so completely different to normal anxiety it's another thing altogether. I used to get flashes of it during pmt whilst I was peri....but until Christmas it was constant for at least 18 months and no one should have to live like that.
So, I decided to take the Utrogestan bs into my own hands. I'm on a 100mcg Estradot patch and am using the Utrogestan 100mg vaginally for only the last 7 days of my ‘cycle', and am getting a damn good bleed from it. Like you I'm fine for the first 3 or 4 days, am struggling by about day 7, and am suicidal by day 10. Then there's the worst pmt ever...so I'm doing the Studd regime - 100mcg patch, 7 day 100mg vaginal Utrogestan.
The first month was fine, but I still was only at about 60%. So I added testosterone to it about a week before Christmas. At first, I wondered what I had done to myself, because that bloody awful anxiety hit me again, so much so that I took an extra dose of mirtazapine (I take 7.5mg nightly for sleep) in the morning for about three or four days 😐😐
However, on day 10, it was about 7pm and I was driving home from my brother's place, and an amazing calm spread over me - and I hadn't taken the mirtazapine for about two mornings at that stage, because I'd decided to tough it out - it was incredible. And I can honestly say that since then, I've effectively been at about 85 - 90% of who I used to be. Which is a relief!!! I had a day of it again Monday past, but realised in the evening that I had forgotten it was patch change day that day...so clearly it was letting me know ‘oi, more oestrogen'.
Why don't you try the Studd regime of only 7 days vaginal Utrogestan? And give yourself a good couple of months on it? That way, if it's bringing you up a bit, then you could start using testosterone alongside? It might mean having to tough it out a bit longer, but over the longer term you might end up feeling a bit better?
I really hope you find some relief soon xx
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morning racjen - how are you today. So looking at the answers to you questions... here are some observations and some of what you have written sounds like where I was...
Past
(1) So I was waking in a complete panic in the mornings very high anxiety and I was waking up nauseas. I would be anxious all day and had a sense of doom and the worry I couldn't complete any task properly. I made mistakes and I forgot things just like you on a pretty grand scale from 1-10 we were permanently at 9 and then some days the full 10!
(2) I couldn't sleep, my brain felt tired but when I lay down and closed my eyes (sometimes I couldnt close them actually) my mind would race and I would be wide awake sometimes throughout the whole night to about 4-5 in the morning, sleep for a couple of hours if lucky and then wake with a start. More often than not any sleeping meds didnt work (except high levels of diazepam which my dr prescribed sparingly but not enough to get me into any pattern). It was like I was on high adrenalin all night being beyond overtired but unable to sleep.
(3) when I was on continuous progesterone I was totally suicidal- dangerously so. Some progesterone was worse than others.
(4) I tried 5 types of hrt methods before I got one that worked. I could not manage on (a) everol of any kind, (b)Femeston, (c)Tridestra, (d) Provera progesterone + Premarin and I was on (e)prempack for 6 years before it was discontinued but it wasnt working and I didnt know any better over a total period of 10/11 years.
Present
I have been on oestrogel and utrogestan on a cycle for the last 7 months. - anxiety and panic gone/nausea gone/doom gone/foggy head so bad I thought I had alzheimers gone/agriphobia gone/acid reflux gone/sore joints from meno gone/tooth ache and earache from jaw clenching intermittant/insomnia scale of 1-10 now a 3/racing mind rare/flushes gone/itching skin gone/irritablity scores 3/jumpiness in legs gone/left sided face ache around my left eye gone.
Remaining was depression but now not the suicidal sort anymore but it is aggrivated at the time I take my Utro. I feel it creeping in by day 3 and I cannot get to 12 days! Still a bit poorly motivated and lacking in concentration scores max3.
So I'm with Northarm when I read over what you have said.
(1) My first point is that you have only ever been on evoral as a delivery method of your oestrogen. It was high at 200 but it did the job to get your levels up - it is now at 100 and the patch delivers continuously. Observation - (a) maybe the continuous delivery is contributing to the anxiety (b) maybe the dose is still too high for you (everol never touched my anxiety in any format sequi or conti) - Conclusion - you have changed other parts of your hrt regime but everol has remained constant. Maybe changing this will work better for you.
On that note - ref oestrogen - I think you need to try another patch like Northarm uses Estrodot or use the oestrogel pump. (I think a lot of the other patches have been discontinued??? - ladies am I right or is there something else racjen could consider?) The gel pump method is very flexible because you are in control of how many pumps you use. You can start at 1 and work up to 4. Instead of continuous delivery at a certain level you can actually find out what level of oestrogen suits you body instead of trailing back to the GP every 5 minutes for different levels of patches or having to cut them in half etc. You may find that only 1 or 2 pumps cuts the anxiety and insomnia.
(2) I would agree with Northarm - you have to have some form of progesterone but it has to be a short cycle. I myself am moving to only 7 days as per the studd regime and taking it into my own hands because I am still struggling with the depressive tearfulness etc on 10 days and I can barely manage to get there just like Northarm. From what you have been posting sounds like you are a candidate to try the studd regime. Try Utro for 7 days only for a good3 months and see how you feel. I think.
Testosterone - it took 6 months to sort out my gel and my utro (and the utro is still not right but getting there). I have only just started on the testosterone with the tiniest blob twice a week. The only difference it has made is that it has taken away a weird tired feeling I had behind my eyes and my brain feels more "present" in the real world but I have only had two full weeks. I would count out testosterone for at least 6 months or even longer until you have all the other symptoms under control.
If you GP is unhelpful ref gel/estrodot and studd regime then AgathaC has a brilliant idea about finding out who is the expert talking at this conference on Cancer Induced Menopause because it fits your circumstances perfectly. If you arent allowed to go or couldnt go then just find out who the expert or experts who are speaking because they must be discussing treatment.
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You could write to Dr Currie outlining these specifics and she will sort a letter to your GP
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or someone else wrote in a post another consultant you could see and you replied but I just cant find the name :)
or
you could just go to your existing consultant (I'd try to get a phone consult first because it is a long way away from your home to go to the clinic in Poole to just to go) and say I am unhappy with what you said at the consult, I have been doing some research and this is what I want to try (gel/estrodot/7 day utro because....(I am pretty sureif you make the case they would let you try)
I think evoral could be the main problem.
Hope I am not speaking out of turn :) :foryou:
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:thankyou: Girls. Wise advice.
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Hi NorthArm, Prof Studd told me that bleeding heavy after withdrawing from Utrogestan means that the prog is not doing it's job well. He told me I needed a stronger prog or the mirena coil.
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Sorry Abba Fan and for anyone else out there. Maybe I'm way off ... I thought that any bleeding heavy or otherwise meant that the progesterone was doing it's job which is to shed the womb lining and not allow it to build up? Well in a cycle regime anyway.
If you are on continuous regime I thought the idea was there shouldn't be any bleeding at all because the oestrogen levels are balanced by the continuous progesterone and it stops the lining building up. If you get spotting on continuous I thought it meant that either you have too much oestrogen and not enough progesterone or vice versa but the balance was out of sync?
One of our more "clinical" ladies who understands this stuff like Hurdity might explain???
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Hello Ladybt28,
I guess the key word here is 'heavy'. If you are on sequential regimen, the scheduled withdrawal bleeding is not supposed to be heavy. If that happens it means oestrogen is building up the endometrium beyond what's acceptable. If you are on continuous regimen and for any reason have to stop HRT altogether and you have a heavy bleeding that means your endometrium was thick and that's not supposed to happen on a continuous regimen, hence the suggestion to change progestagens.
Conolly X
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I had *heavy* periods for years :'( but as it was part of my cycle I never wondered why. Would last up to 3 days.
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Hey Conolly,
My periods were always "heavy" when I had my periods, I would have been a "flooding" girl so now I am on this regime the flow is less so I thought it was ok.
I am on a high dose of oestrogel 4 pumps and am going to a long cycle 28 days + 7 x 200mg utro - can any of the ladies on such a cycle give me any clue as to what I should be expecting for a bleed?
If the lining is coming away and I can cope with the bleed - does it matter if it builds up but comes away? Help :-\
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These are 2 different scenarios: one is a natural period and the other is withdrawal bleeding from HRT. They are not comparable.
I can't say what's expected on a long cycle, but as long as you are shedding enough to keep the lining under a reasonable thickness it's OK. This probably varies amongst women and of course a scan now and then is necessary to monitor the endometrium.
Conolly X
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Great post Petrichor DD 😘
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:welcomemm: Petrichor
Where's racgen :-\
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Petrichor. I know it's not my thread but I was so interested to read your post.
I've gone into surgical meno at 53 and had immediate severe symptoms I'm finding hrt a struggle too.
I had been wondering whether the fact that I was not yet in menopause before surgery made the crash more severe and have been confused about the difference between hrt in suremeno and natural meno in terms of hrt. I think I was naturally heading for a late meno and the instant drop was devastating.
Do you mind me asking if you have any links to the articles you mention?
The only info I could find in the beginning seemed to say that its always best to keep ovaries if you can. In fact some of the stuff I read about ovary removal realy realy upset me, won't go into details but one site actually called the surgery something realy nasty and put forward the idea that my body has been irreparably damaged . It made me bitterly regret the surgery and seriously hindered my ability to come to terms with it. I now know to avoid these particular sites but the seed was planted and in my fragile emotional state what they were putting forward was realy damaging.
I only come on here now and have tried to stop randomly googling so I would be interested if you have any links.
Glad you have found alternatives which work for you
I know your reply was for Racjen but it has helped me too. Especially hearing that your symptoms naturally lessened as time went on. I realy didn't think that would happen without ovaries and it gives me hope.
Thank you
And Racjen. I truly wish you all the best and hope you get sorted and start to feel better soonx
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:welcomemm: Petrichor
Where's racgen :-\
She was here at 9.26 today.
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Oh, can't see her answers ............
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Just click on her profile. I expect she will check in later.
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It showed 9.26 but I can't find any actually responses other than the last 1 of yesterday.
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Perhaps she hasn't had time yet.
You do panic ::).
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I don't think that the profiles are always true anyway, my total logged in time is 129 days ;D :-X
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Is that ALL. Surely not.
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:lol: you're not stalking me then :rofl:
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Er no, I thought you were stalking me.
Seriously though, because you post so often, you could be stalking everyone. ;)
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Yep. Beats the soaps on TV ;)
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It showed 9.26 but I can't find any actually responses other than the last 1 of yesterday.
Although she didn't post anything at 9.26 - that was the last time racjen was logged onto MM.
Cazikins.
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Hope she is o.k
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Ah - whereas I don't log out 'cos I can't remember my Password ::) :thankyou:
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:lol: me neither CKLD!
Maybe she just needs time to absorb the information, we have bombarded her with :-X or she is still hiding under a duvet, but I was wondering also how she is.? When one of us disappears a while after chatting so long, it can be a bit worrying, but that's a nice thing to have though, people worrying about you!
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Morning!
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yep It was still morning - but only just ;D
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It's morning in this house until we have eaten lunch ;)
Hopefully racgen will pop up with some news ;-)
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Sorry everyone, didn't mean to worry you but have just been feeling more and more despairing. I guess I did feel a bit over whelmed with all the suggestions - to be honest it's as much as I can do to make a cup of tea at the moment, the idea of trying to attend a conference or even asking my GP for Oestrogel instead of Evorel is just too much for me - it all feels like random stabs in the dark which will just lead me further and further down this path to hopelessness.
Having been left feeling completely written off and dismissed by Mr. Tim Hillard at Poole Clinic, I've come back to the prospect of starting progesterone again. So I took 100mg of Utrogestan last night and got no sleep whatsoever. That really hasn't helped. Have spent most of today in bed feeling like I want to go to sleep and never wake up again. Thank you all for caring - I think I did log in this morning but just couldn't think of a single thing to say.....too much estrogen is probably a good one to investigate but right ow my brain just can't cope x.
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Hello ladies.
racjen - it's good to hear from you but I'm so sorry that it isn't better news. I totally understand your frustration and exhaustion and I wish I had the answers for you. All I can say is rest up and take care of yourself until hopefully some energy returns and you can think straight again. I've had a run of bad nights and the lack of sleep is truly nerve shredding.
Wishing you well.
K.
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Hey don't worry, I thought that's what had happened - just look after yourself for the minute, we are just pleased to hear from you. :)
You can deal with changing the oestrogen when you can think straight but at least its a plan. Don't take the utro orally just do it vaginally.
We are just really really happy to see you check in :foryou:
:bighug:
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Racjen. So glad to hear from you.
The overwhelming thing is understandable. Sometimes it's all too much to put in place and sort out in your mind.
I hope you don't feel patronized at what I'm going to say but I'm hoping it might help as I do it when I feel overwhelmed.
I imagine putting things into a big chest with lots of small drawers.i put each thing into a seperate draw. Then i try to forget about it try to give my mind time to calm and rest my body and then when i feel ready i only open the boxes I can actually do something about. One at a time. And if i only open 1 in a week thats ok.
it doesn't always work for me and sometimes I have to start again but it has worked for me at times and it's something I go back to.
As I said i hope you don't think it's patronizing im .just trying to offer a tip in the hope it might work for you. I wish I could help you more
Xxxx
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Hello ladies,
Good tip, Tc!
Racjen, have you ever heard of brain reset or reboot? It's something that naturally occurs during sleep but when sleep disturbances make it impossible, there are some techniques (and chemicals) that mimic the process. Have a look on the internet, maybe addressing mental exhaustion is necessary before sorting out HRT.
Conolly X
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Oh Birdy I understand about the cortisol and the anxiety meaning your body take up rate on hormones is rubbish. Longterm high levels of anxiety does major damage to the body and it takes a long time for it to subside and get to a state of better functioning when the cortisol comes down - but double the dose of progesterone because you can't sleep if you are one of the people it makes suicidal when you are on the lowest dose you can take??? - I'm not really sure that would be a good idea! I was like racjen and I wouldn't have been able to do that, it would have finished me off completely!
I had to use valerian tablets and melatonin to sort out my sleep.
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Hi,
just to say 5 years ago I was so stressed I even forgot how to turn the lights on full beam at night on my car ( something i had done a thousand times.) I was literally on my knees unable to take anymore stress. I was a wreck. With counselling, good friends who took care of me, good food, plenty of rest, the right HRT, vitamins- I was low on vit D and iron etc and a determined attitude that either I could give up or find a way, I am now 100% bettter than I was. There is always hope.
Peppermintyx
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Hello Racjen.
Thought i'd overwhelm you a bit more. 🙂
After having a complete breakdown this week I landed at my GP's and he's given me beta blockers and diazepam.
And then I called the private meno doc I have been seeing for some desperate help.
We talked for about half hour, and for free thankfully. Probably because I was a wailing banshee and scared her reception staff.
Anyway, the hormones I am on aren't really doing much for my mental state and I thought I needed more tweaks.
But the upshot is, and I said this before, if you are very stressed your cortisol will be high. It floods all of your hormone receptors and therefore no matter what combination of hormones, or whether they are the most pricey you can get or made from horse piss, you will not absorb them.
Even if a blood test says your levels are great, your receptors are shut down.
She said chronic stress, surgery, chemo, sudden death in the family etc all cause body and brain trauma and as a result, cortisol takes over.
So you absolutely have to get your cortisol levels down.
Easier said than done I know, believe me.
She suggested lots of sleep, patience, good nutrition, low low sugar, no stimulants at all, meditation, holy basil, ashwagandha, tons of b vitamins, and time.
I am not absorbing hormones very well, and cortisol is seriously affecting my brain function. I am stressed to f8ck, and clearly you are too.
She said being stressed every day will wreck your chances of hormone balance.
She also said if ultrogestan 100 isn't helping with sleep, double the dose.
I also use Valerian tablets, beta blockers, no caffeine, and bed at the same time every night and no napping day time.
I love the helpful suggestion 'lots of sleep' as if this were something we could just will ourselves to do. As Ladybt says further down, there's no way I'm taking 200mg of Utrogestan, that would really finish me off. I've tried every sleep remedy known to womankind - valerian, anti-histamines, beta-blockers, the Z-class ones you get on prescription. They all make me horribly depressed so kind of defeat the object. I was sleeping reasonably well on estrogen alone (like 5 - 6 hours a night, feels like a decent night's sleep at the moment) but add progesterone and I'm wide awake. Do be careful with diazepam - it works really well, but it's incredibly addictive and your tolerance will increase very fast, does nothing for me now.
Which private doctor are you seeing by the way?
Hope
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Thanks sparkle, in my experience there is no one cure all, it takes a number of strategies to get better. I look at it in percentages- councelling may be 10%, food maybe 20%, medication may be 15%, family and friends support may be 25% etc of the solution. Every ones percentages and strategies are different. Life is not a bed a roses by any means with Disney characters abundant for me but I try to have a positive attitude, and send a little love into the universe whenever I can.
Peppermintyx
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Hello again racjen,
This study shows there's a physiological estradiol (E2) regimen that is ideal for antianxiety and antidepressive behaviour, lower or higher doses don't have the same effect. Besides, stress and corticosteroids also play a role. The study was performed in rats (poor animals).
https://www.nature.com/articles/1300708 (https://www.nature.com/articles/1300708)
Edit: I know you're may not able to read it right now, so here are the important bits:
'Together, these data suggest that moderate E2 levels, like that produced by 5 or 10 μg E2 administration, may decrease anxiety and depressive behavior and corticosterone levels and that these effects may be modulated by the tone of the HPA.'
'However, some E2 regimen of lower or higher E2 dosages, or a longer duration of E2 exposure, produce no effect on anxiety behavior, decrease anxiety behavior, or may indeed increase anxiety behavior of female rodents in these tasks.'
'We found an effect of moderate dosages (5–10 μg), but not lower (0–2 μg) or higher (20–50 μg) dosages, of E2 to reduce basal corticosterone levels and levels following behavioral testing with or without prior restraint.'
Plus the 2 last paragraphs that are too long to copy/paste on here.
Conolly X
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Birdy,
Great to see you were listened to and have a plan. You will get there in the end. Let us know how you get along. It takes a while to lower cortisol.
This may seem way out there, but if your mind races try chanting as you can only think of the chant you are chanting as it were. It is the same principle as mindfulness without the having to think bit if that makes sense.
BENEFITS OF CHANTING
When we chant, we engage in a psycho-spiritual and physical exercise, altering our cells.
Physical changes: Reduces stress, improves cognition, lowers heart rate, helps tune inward to become aware of distress in the physical body before it becomes illness.
The Alzheimer's Research and Prevention Foundation has encouraged the use of the Kirtan Kriya to prevent Alzheimer's and dementia, stating, “clinical research has shown that practicing Kirtan Kriya for just 12 minutes a day can improve cognition and activate parts of the brain that are central to memory.â€
EMOTIONAL CHANGES
Alleviates depression, reduces stress.
PM x
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I think the point here racjen is that 'everything' seems to make you depressed. Which is not to be expected. These reactions really needs to be addressed ....... what many 'experts' [how I HATE that word :bang: ] do not believe is that there are several forms of depression.
I have organic depression because my brain for many years lacked serotonin [ probably ] certainly something made me very ill ....... but correct medication eased symptoms and I have to take it for Life. I also have clinical depression - which many people suffer with when they are unable to alter the situation that they find themselves in. I can tell the difference in my brain. Also, I feel depressed in my temples but no one has ever asked where it is situated. Add to that anxiety from the age of 3 and I'm quite a mess sometimes. Again, medication helps.
Maybe your medics are completely on the wrong tack :-\ - maybe your medics should work from the brain downwards? Medication that is designed to ease depression should not make a person suicidal. Or more depressed. Maybe read my thread, 'my depression' and see if anything clicks with you. Start from the top down .......... get a dietician on board in case you lack vitamins etc.. Sit in the sunshine when you are able to drag out of bed.
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Hey racjen
If you feel up to it, try to go for a plodge in the snow on the hills tomorrow, to take your mind off your present worries for just a brief moment if you can?
:bighug:
Hurdity x
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Plodge - love it ;)
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Her name is Monica Lascar. I was slagging her off on Monday for not replying to my email but after talking to her today I realise she knows more than I gave her credit for.
I thought you said that you weren't intolerant of progesterone racjen?
She also said ultrogestan 100 is a low dose and it wears off quickly.
Too much progesterone can create dark moods but in that case reduce your dose.
I agree getting a good night's sleep seems completely out of reach, and being advised to do things you've already tried is frustrating.
I had about 50 minutes each night for two weeks recently. I was throwing up with exhaustion.
Pepperminty, I agree. You've got to throw everything at it.
She also said brain fog is caused by low oestrogen. That's it.
So here's praying mine is caused by anxiety because my oestrogen is high.
To be honest Birdy, I'm not sure I really understand what does and doesn't constitute progesterone intolerance anymore - feeling very confused. There are some women on here who get severe migraines during their progesterone phase so that's pretty obvious, but most of us seem to find taking progesterone problematic in some way or other, so I'm not sure where that becomes intolerance? I had 3 months off progesterone to see whether it was causing my intense anxiety, and it made no difference at all; however I do find that I can't get through more than 8 or 9 days of 100mg Utrogestan without becoming very depressed, also right from the start it gives me constant stomachache, and that's taking it vaginally. I certainly couldn't cope with 200mg, I've tried and felt absolutely terrible. Does that make me intolerant, or is it just that progesterone is a tricky hormone? On the other hand, I'm convinced that I do need some to feel OK - over the 3 months of unopposed estrogen I've been feeling more and more depressed and my anxiety has become more generalised, culminating in two days hiding from the world in bed this week (which has never happened before). Today, on my 2nd day of 100mg Utrogestan I felt normal enough to drive the 50 mile round trip to visit my brother and get a bit of sea at Sidmouth. So for me it clearly has its place; as others on here have suggested I think I need to look more at the type and dose of estrogen I'm taking, which no so-called professional has questioned so far....
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Hello racjen,
I thought you might find this interesting https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/88/5/2026/2845216
Conolly X
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That's exactly what happens to me Racjen I feel better on days 1-4/5 of Utrogestan and then I hit a wall and struggle to get though the last few days. I especially feel worse as it withdraws from my system and then I feel better for the rest of the month. I follow this pattern every month. Whether it's progesterone intolerance or not is difficult to say as I always feel I need just a little bit but any more and I suffer; what makes it worse is conventional hrt doesn't seem to allow for this, I,e., women who are particularly sensitive, and only offers a one size fits all (a bit like M&S jeans) which of course doesn't help those in the minority.
Also, to pick up on Connolly's post I agree high levels of oestrogen (or too high) creates problems in itself. Could you experiment with decreasing your dose I.e,. cut a patch in half, or even leave one off and see how you feel?x
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I think the point here racjen is that 'everything' seems to make you depressed. Which is not to be expected. These reactions really needs to be addressed ....... what many 'experts' [how I HATE that word :bang: ] do not believe is that there are several forms of depression.
I have organic depression because my brain for many years lacked serotonin [ probably ] certainly something made me very ill ....... but correct medication eased symptoms and I have to take it for Life. I also have clinical depression - which many people suffer with when they are unable to alter the situation that they find themselves in. I can tell the difference in my brain. Also, I feel depressed in my temples but no one has ever asked where it is situated. Add to that anxiety from the age of 3 and I'm quite a mess sometimes. Again, medication helps.
Maybe your medics are completely on the wrong tack :-\ - maybe your medics should work from the brain downwards? Medication that is designed to ease depression should not make a person suicidal. Or more depressed. Maybe read my thread, 'my depression' and see if anything clicks with you. Start from the top down .......... get a dietician on board in case you lack vitamins etc.. Sit in the sunshine when you are able to drag out of bed.
CLKD, I have to take issue with your statement that medication designed to ease depression shouldn't make you suicidal. There is a warning in every pack of anti-depressants that, for a small minority of people, there is the risk that they will make your depression worse, cause suicidal ideation and at worst suicide itself. This risk is worse in teenagers, but it is widely recognised that psychotropic drugs of all kinds can worsen depression and increase the risk of suicide in vulnerable individuals. Equally there are some people for whom they just don't work, they don't have a negative effect - they just don't work. It's all to do with individual brain chemistry.
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Racjen
I found this happened to me every time I took ssris for the first few weeks. It's the reason I won't risk them at the moment I've seriously been effected in this way by my hormones crashing and not being at all sorted on hrt yet without throwing prozac in the mix.
I simply cannot risk that first few weeks even though I know I need something as I'm going through the worst anxiety depression I've ever had .
I told my psychiatrist I won't risk it as I've already had some very dark intrusive thoughts in the last few months since my op. He said it's time for medication but he agreed about the risk.
He suggested WELLBUTRIN. And said he would prescribe it but then I had a call from his secretary saying he had changed his mind. Ive got to speak to him on Monday so I don't know why yet.
X.
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Hello racjen Nice to see you back with us and I am so glad you felt well enough to go to your brothers.
I agree from what you have said that progesterone does have place in your regime. The question is how much and what type.
I found that I needed my utro to settle into a proper cycle. The first month I took it vaginally (I have never taken it orally I wouldn't risk it because of the bad experience I had with Provera which is oral) I could almost feel it tingling inside me and a sort of soreness but I just ignored it.
The next thing I learnt another 2 months was I couldn't manage the 12 days I was supposed to take it. So dropped to 10 days and now know I am going to drop to 7.
Personally, you mention intolerance but obviously there are stages. I am never going to be so intolerant my body rejects it altogether but I am definitely not a lady who can take it continously nor for the normally prescribed time. In 7 months I have learned 7-10 days would be the very max I could manage.
As I have said before, the one constant theme, throughout your journey which has not changed is everol patches and that has been since 2016 when you had your treatment. These just may be wrong for you, I couldnt use them. It have no idea why but I couldn't they didn't touch my insomnia or my anxiety one bit. I would suggest that you stick to the utro for a bit longer on the shortest cycle 7-10 days and then talk about changing your oestrogen from everol. Personally if it was me I would discuss that aspect of your problems with Dr Currie or someone else who maybe does telephone consults. Defo not that idiot man in Poole :-X ;) Birdh talks about low oestrogen and although you have tried higher doses of everol they haven't which just suggests to me it could be evoral itself.
It seems that althogh GP's and consultants think oestrogen is oestrogen, in whatever make they prescribe, we know on the forum that each of use reacts differently to different oestrogen products. You may have to try some different oestrogen products to find one that suits or if any suit but you wont know until you try. And you must find a consultant who knows their stuff to help you do that. I know you cant afford major expense what with the job etc so Dr Currie seems a good place to start.
I just wish there was something I could do to help you feel better XXXXX
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Hi Racjen
I really hope you're having a bit better day today xx
When I said before about having a good bleed on the regime I'm on, what I meant was is that it's a good clean out.
Years ago, on the OCP, it did nothing for my periods. Pre OCP, my period was very heavy and flooding. On the OCP, it was very heavy, flooding, clotting and painful. And I was on that particular one for five years. So having a good bleed for me means that I'm not flooding, it's not clotting and there's no pain. Just a good bleed.
I'm just curious if you had pmt before your op? Apparently those ladies that suffered bad pmt (I did) might also suffer really badly at meno too. Premenstrual dysphoric disorder they call it, and I suffered that my whole reproductive life - it got worse as I got older. It signals poor reaction to fluctuating progesterone, got even worse in the year before meno, and post men I was feeling like that all the time 🙁 But I'm much better on this regime xx
Anyway, I really hope you find some answers soon, big hugs xx
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Hello racjen Nice to see you back with us and I am so glad you felt well enough to go to your brothers.
I agree from what you have said that progesterone does have place in your regime. The question is how much and what type.
I found that I needed my utro to settle into a proper cycle. The first month I took it vaginally (I have never taken it orally I wouldn't risk it because of the bad experience I had with Provera which is oral) I could almost feel it tingling inside me and a sort of soreness but I just ignored it.
The next thing I learnt another 2 months was I couldn't manage the 12 days I was supposed to take it. So dropped to 10 days and now know I am going to drop to 7.
Personally, you mention intolerance but obviously there are stages. I am never going to be so intolerant my body rejects it altogether but I am definitely not a lady who can take it continously nor for the normally prescribed time. In 7 months I have learned 7-10 days would be the very max I could manage.
As I have said before, the one constant theme, throughout your journey which has not changed is everol patches and that has been since 2016 when you had your treatment. These just may be wrong for you, I couldnt use them. It have no idea why but I couldn't they didn't touch my insomnia or my anxiety one bit. I would suggest that you stick to the utro for a bit longer on the shortest cycle 7-10 days and then talk about changing your oestrogen from everol. Personally if it was me I would discuss that aspect of your problems with Dr Currie or someone else who maybe does telephone consults. Defo not that idiot man in Poole :-X ;) Birdh talks about low oestrogen and although you have tried higher doses of everol they haven't which just suggests to me it could be evoral itself.
It seems that althogh GP's and consultants think oestrogen is oestrogen, in whatever make they prescribe, we know on the forum that each of use reacts differently to different oestrogen products. You may have to try some different oestrogen products to find one that suits or if any suit but you wont know until you try. And you must find a consultant who knows their stuff to help you do that. I know you cant afford major expense what with the job etc so Dr Currie seems a good place to start.
I just wish there was something I could do to help you feel better XXXXX
I emailed Dr. Currie and she maintains that there should be absolutely no difference between Evorel patches and Estrogel, because they contain exactly the same thing. And yet many women's experience on here would seem to contradict that....I'm going to ask my GP for some Estrogel and give it a try anyway, also I want to try Provera as there's no way I'm taking utrogestan anymore - 7 days on 100mg has me ready to top myself, I can't cope with that every bloody month.
NorthArm, yes I did suffer from PMT, although not severely - I don't think it was worse than many other women's. I had an episode of this same anxiety and depression when I was peri (at 45) which I think is highly relevant as I'd never suffered anything like it before.
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Racjen, that could be entirely relevant. The episode you describe was me, most months, for two weeks every month 🙁, for my whole productive life. With rage too 🙁🙁.
Stupidly, I thought with meno, I'd feel like I used to for the first two weeks after my period - calm, relaxed, normal....But no, it's been like the worst pmt I've ever had, pretty much 24/7 🙁🙁. Now I know, I'm educating my daughter...
So, for me, if the Mirena doesn't work (I'm having one inserted soon), I'm going to insist on a total hysterectomy - ovaries, the lot! It couldn't make me feel any worse, and the life I'm living isn't a life...
I find work helps - I get to have ‘people time', and it lifts me out of my head if you know what I mean.
I know you're not working at the moment (and SHAME on your employer - it's actually illegal to do that in Australia), but in the meantime, would you maybe be able to do some voluntary work? Maybe in a charity shop, or an aged care home? At least it would give you some human interaction, and a reason to get up and out?
You have gone through so much recently, I really feel for you xxx
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I don't think any employer can be expected to hang on to a worker who's been off continuously for a whole year and can't give any indication of when they might be coming back. I was working in the public sector, for the library service, and their sickness policy was pretty generous - don't forget I'd already had 8 months off the previous year for cancer treatment. I don't have a problem with them, they're struggling to keep libraries open here as it is due to lack of govt funding.
To be honest if I could do voluntary work I could do a paid job, even if very part time - at the moment I couldn't guarantee to be able to turn up from one day to the next, and it would become a source of pressure which I really can't cope with. For now I just have to take each day as it comes....
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Hi again Racjen
Re your email to Doctor Currie about estrogel/evorel although she is technically correct that they are the same thing, they are delivered by different methods. And crucially no one can predict how we react individually to different delivery methods (as I found out). I trialled estrogel as I read on this forum that lots of ladies liked it, however, after 4 days I had such a tremendous crash that I had to abandon it. I stuck a patch on and within a couple of hours felt my old self again. I can only surmise that I wasn't absorbing properly. Either way though you have nothing to lose by trying it, and only you can find out if it works for you. Let us know how you go on.
Btw did you ever try to reduce your patch dose (as suggested)?x
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I haven't yet because I've been waiting to get past going back onto utrogestan and the ensuing withdrawal - didn't seem like the best time and also would be confusing in terms of result. But am planning to try it gradually now, will probably go down by 25 for a couple of weeks and then, depending on how I feel, another 25 and stick at that for a while (so aiming to reduce to 50).
Re. the estrogel/evorel thing though, I know that I'm absorbing fine with patches, so if I still get on better with estrogel there's something else going on and Dr. Currie is wrong....we'll see.
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Hello racjen Nice to see you back with us and I am so glad you felt well enough to go to your brothers.
I agree from what you have said that progesterone does have place in your regime. The question is how much and what type.
I found that I needed my utro to settle into a proper cycle. The first month I took it vaginally (I have never taken it orally I wouldn't risk it because of the bad experience I had with Provera which is oral) I could almost feel it tingling inside me and a sort of soreness but I just ignored it.
The next thing I learnt another 2 months was I couldn't manage the 12 days I was supposed to take it. So dropped to 10 days and now know I am going to drop to 7.
Personally, you mention intolerance but obviously there are stages. I am never going to be so intolerant my body rejects it altogether but I am definitely not a lady who can take it continously nor for the normally prescribed time. In 7 months I have learned 7-10 days would be the very max I could manage.
As I have said before, the one constant theme, throughout your journey which has not changed is everol patches and that has been since 2016 when you had your treatment. These just may be wrong for you, I couldnt use them. It have no idea why but I couldn't they didn't touch my insomnia or my anxiety one bit. I would suggest that you stick to the utro for a bit longer on the shortest cycle 7-10 days and then talk about changing your oestrogen from everol. Personally if it was me I would discuss that aspect of your problems with Dr Currie or someone else who maybe does telephone consults. Defo not that idiot man in Poole :-X ;) Birdh talks about low oestrogen and although you have tried higher doses of everol they haven't which just suggests to me it could be evoral itself.
It seems that althogh GP's and consultants think oestrogen is oestrogen, in whatever make they prescribe, we know on the forum that each of use reacts differently to different oestrogen products. You may have to try some different oestrogen products to find one that suits or if any suit but you wont know until you try. And you must find a consultant who knows their stuff to help you do that. I know you cant afford major expense what with the job etc so Dr Currie seems a good place to start.
I just wish there was something I could do to help you feel better XXXXX
Hi
Read this n thought I'd ask ..... can I cut down the amount of days I take the progesterone tablets from the monthly Elleste duet 2mg I am currently on ?
My mood is unstable n very low. I too am running out of options. Feel very vulnerable and alone in my own misery. At this time I'm not working(took a years sabbatical)as not coping. Now I'm lost for words as I do a lot in trying to explain how I feel.
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I have enquired as to vaginal progesterone but still waiting to hear back from my gynaecologist. Mean time I did not take progesterone tablet last night. I have 7 left to take. Will I take every other night ?
I do not want to take but know there is concerns regarding womb lining building up n cancer scare ????
Thx for getting back to me on this issue. Its the 11th hour decision n I need the advice
Desperate doesn't cover it !
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Crazy.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the elleste duet is balanced so the dose of progesterone adequately covers the womb lining for the dose of eastrogen contained. .
If I am correct in that I would think you need to see doc before trying to reduce on a permenant basis. .
Also doesnt the pill containing progesterone also contain eastrogen? so you would be reducing eastrogen as well.
Xx