Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: lazyhazy on January 23, 2019, 08:56:53 AM
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Hi, Im 54 and have not had a period for 5 years. I've recently been struggling with anxiety about my brain fog and inability to slow my thoughts down. My brain seems to be on fast forward, (especially at night) which makes me distracted and forgetful. My doc put me on Evorel Conti patches, which I took for 4 weeks, but made me feel absolutely dreadful, really anxious and depressed (which is at the top of the side effects list) I have two questions please. Is it unusual to get these brain fog symptoms so long into menopause, as most info says this is worse in peri, then improves. And also, does the right hrt help with brain fog? My doc suggested anti depressants, but I'm worried they will make me more dozy! Any thoughts please? Sorry for the long post and thanks very much x :)
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If you are not depressed then why take them? Anxiety and depression are two different conditions and need different approaches. How bad is the anxiety, background or 'stop you in your tracks' type? For me I am grounded within moments. :-\
Yep. Brain fog is common. I've been reading a book which is a real page turner but when I pick it up the next time, I have no idea what I've read previously :'(. Been like this 4 years ::) but my head feels heavy and full as I try to remember if that makes any sense.
ADs can also cause brain fog.
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Hi, Thanks for your reply. Yes, your description is a familiar one. It's sudden anxiety, generally when I've just done something daft and panic that I'm losing my mind, then I dwell on it for ages. I don't really want to go down the AD route. Am seeing a different GP as the last seemed reluctant to prescribe HRT (probably because she was about 12 and thought, whats the fuss about!) Are you on HRT, has it made any difference?
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Not on HRT other than treatment for vaginal atrophy, do read our threads on that 1!
I have an emergency 'as necessary' pill to take when anxiety floors me.
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Have you taken time off work so that you can rest?
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My anxiety, awful thoughts and incompetence at work and at home were worse before I started HRT. I went to my GP three times in a total state of desperation and told her that I was so low and unable to function normally that I worried I would make a catastrophic mistake. She told me I wasn't menopausal and offered my anti depressants which I refused. In the midst of all this I missed the correct date of a payment and we now have an enforcable CCJ on our business.
Now with Evorel 50 I feel normal again but when I add Utrogestan I am back in that awful place and not only unable to function properly or sleep but also inappropriately angry (I shouldn't be shouting through the wall at my neighbours about their take away delivery habits).
Speak to a different GP and try HRT. It might be amazing and if it isn't you can stop and have nothing to lose.
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I think bioidentical HRT does seem to improve brain fog, and improves sleep, which in turn improves anxiety. I have also added Melatonin, available on prescription for those aged 55 yrs and over, which helps regulate sleep patterns, which in turn helps foggy brain. I am at a stage now where when people can't remember names or whatever, I seem to be able to get fast recall, even faster than some of my students in their 20s. 7 years ago things were so bad before HRT I took a bus in the wrong direction going to my GP, and had 2 car crashes within 2 months.
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So don't know if this is going to be helpful or not but here goes.
My oestrogel and utrogestan have cut my fogginess by some considerable margin although it took 5 months to lift. I am 57 Post meno but need to take them on a cycle so I bleed (progesterone intolerant) On a scale of 1 to 10 I was at 10 because I thought I had alzheimers! an had been like that for about 5 years so yes it can go on a long time LazyHazy and yes the right hrt does help the brain fog!
I had always been foggy headed (but turns out I have had hormonal problems prior to meno) but the alzheimers phase was about 5 years, but my brain still didn't feel sharp and I was left with a weird feeling behind my eyes like chronic tiredness but not! (so hard to explain) - it was just like I was still viewing the world from a distance, I wasn't totally "present". I explained this to my consultant and she introduced testosterone. (I am building slowly half a pump every other day. She said 1 whole pump every other but I decided to take it slow). It has taken 2 weeks for that weird feeling to go but it has gone.
FYI - I have tried 5 types of hrt including everol conti Lazy Hazy and it was not good for me, neither were the others I tried - But the gel and utro have worked ok and so much better than all the others. Not perfect but much better (I don't think we ever go back to how we were) I was left with low motivation, low libido, still depressed and still fuzzy headed out of a list of about 12 meno symptoms. Consultant said that the testosterone should help the last 4.
Ref my Utrogestan - I use it vaginally but I still have problems when taking it because progesterone affects me badly and although I am supposed to take it continuously because I am post memo I cannot possibly do that so I trade the bleed for the shorted use of the progesterone. By day 4 of my cycle I am falling into a depressive hole and am very tearful, bit snappy, cant be bothered but it is not so bad that I sleep all day or hide under a duvet. Its that horrible feeling but I now know it is the progesterone and that it will pass and that I have to put up with it. My number of days I use it is the lowest I am allowed. I have had one other separate progesterone and I can't take that it is worse than the Utro. Maybe you could try out some other types of progesterone to see if they suit you better Orangefoot. Do you take it on a cycle or continuously?
Birdy - forgive me if I am wrong but the delivery method of you hrt is by lozenge?
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R U all hydrated enough as when the body needs fluids, it can become sluggish.
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You have suggested this several times Birdy but have you spoken to some at your local Alzheimer's group? :-\ people who really know how to get the various tests required? and talk to people dealing with this condition on a daily basis?
I could have a brain problem as I couldn't remember my dog's name earlier :'( a complete blank. No feeling or anything between my ears. It took about 10 mins. to remember but that's 'normal' for me ::)
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I have felt similar. But you aren't getting immediate help. :-\
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Birdy - please, please don't stress mind you I know it is easier said than done - it is highly unlikely you have alzheimers - the memory problems and the fogginess are totally part of meno, but are not much talked about (except on here - where we are all aware of the issues cos most of us have been there) and yes it is extremely scary I too fitted the profile but it wasn't. I couldn't find words, stopped mid-sentence. Went out couldn't remember why or where I was going. I parked my car and couldn't remember where, lost it more than once in carpark and called my husband telling him it had been stolen! and if you are suffering badly with anxiety your mind just runs riot and your body gets worse because the worry ramps up the anxiety!
I may be speaking out of turn but I have been reading your posts for a while now and I am thinking that maybe your combination lozenge of bio-identicals is either not strong enough or is in the wrong combination for you because if it was right it would be working for you by now. I don't really understand the lozenge system, it confuses me a bit...are they made up of the hrt chemicals that are in the likes of everol, or my gel, or femeston etc eg chemically made in a lab to mimic our bodies hormones or are they made from yams or soy or the totally natural sources of oestrogen etc mixed with progesterone (although I thought there wasn't a natural progesterone in the natural world, there was only a lab derived mimic one - I know someone will correct me I am wrong??!) What I am asking is exactly what oestrogen, progesterone chemicals etc are in your lozenge - do you know the name of the progesterone for example?
Personally I do not think you can continue to suffer as you are - something is not right - you need to go back to your consultant who prescribed your lozenge and tell them how poorly you are and that the levels needs to be tweaked or represcribed and/or you need to try something different altogether and/or indeed a different consultant (whichever makes things better) I had to try 5 types before I got one that even started to work properly, the rest were a nightmare. We all react so differently. It is working for Autumn 27 but it is definitely not working for you. I am very worried about you and having been there, I know the trauma of the mental health situation you find youself in - it is a nasty and dangerous place to be. I am convinced it can be fixed - your consultant needs to step up but you need to tell them first!
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It's not connected to the anxiety Birdy - I didn't have problems at specific times, I had it all the time. I have run my own business for 18 years and I was so bad I actually discussed with my husband about selling it at one point because I couldn't speak to anyone, I couldn't write my letters, I couldn't do a flaming thing and he had to carry the whole weight of it. That's beside all the general day to day stuff.
Ref the alzheimers association - forget what they have to say, which is going to be general but not necessarily apply to you. If you are adamant that it is dementia of some kind then then get your GP to do the tests or refer you for a brain scan which can show up any problems. Personally I wouldn't do this now as any GP tests are going to be influenced by your hormone imbalance.
Wait until you have got a definite answer around hrt. Also regarding blood tests around meno and hrt probems, lots of women here say they are not really a good indicator of what is happening. It is how your body reacts and the symptoms and issues you have which are the real indicator. If an hrt is working to a certain degree you should get relief of some or all symptoms. If you don't then my view would be, its not working for YOU regardless of what the bloods say.
Using the Marion Gluck clinc which I believe takes the hollistic route with hrt probably means you like alternative medicine and those types of avenues right? (sorry if I am making the wrong assumptions I don't mean to offend) but to be honest you may have to re-evaluate your opinion and go towards a more medical route. I know some women can do the "alternative" thing or the more "hollistic medicine" thing and have it work but there are plenty who can't. Their bodies need pure chemical replacement of the lab type if you see what I mean. I suppose the Clinic use your bloods to calculate the levels of the lozenge but if you dont absorb the right amout or one bit is too low or too high for your own body then the bloods make no difference? The more bog standard medical route may not be what you like or would wish to do but the bottom line is you deserve to feel much better than you are now.
How long to you have to wait to hear from Marion Gluck?
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Hi Birdy as others have said this seems hormonal . Just because your hrt is body ? Identical doesn't mean it's suiting you . Just as the evorel conti gave you anxiety this regime may be doing that as well . Everyone is different .
Everol conti gave me crushing anxiety insomnia and suicidal thoughts and made brain fog worse . So after 10 weeks of hell I've changed onto femoston conti and three months in on it sleeping better still bit anxious and still got memory glitches but generally better so will hang on in with it for a bit longer .
I had the worrying about dementia but at least two of my friends the same age as me have similar if not worse cognitive symptoms. We can't all have Alzheimer's the care homes would be over flowing with 60 year old women .
It still makes me anxious when I have a memory or concentration fail but I know for a fact that the worrying makes it worse . Btw it happens to me daily at least twice .
Instead of googling dementia try neurosymptoms. Com or functional cognitive disorder or dr Louise newsomes instagrm account and read the comments left re brain fog .
You are not the only one by a long way but your anxiety is stopping you from being rational . I've been whet you are and feel for you deeply xxx
Lemondrop xxxx
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Your GP is the place to start if you have found the information from the Alzheimers Group of little use.
When I first went there my oestrogen and testosterone were very low. So at least then I could pin my fears on something.. so the regime has helped a little :-\.
It can only be diagnosed at post mortem. There are lots of tests that can be given, some are repetitive, which would give you a clue. How would knowing help?
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How R U Lazyhazy?
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Birdy, why don't you write down, what has been happening and what has not been happening in bullet points for the call whilst you are waiting for her to get back to you?
Write down the time frame as well so that you can relay the issues in context.
Then write down the questions you want to ask. As you are feeling so bad you need to be prepared to answer her questions and if your memory isn't great, it's even harder when you are put on the spot to remember....you will stress if you think you've missed something I'm sure. t
Then when the call comes you can just grab your note pad and then it wont catch you on the hop! One of the things which made me want to sell the business was because I knew that people could just phone at random and ask stuff and I knew I couldn't answer them like I used to (despite having done the job for years) and the very idea of that made me more anxious (as if that were even possible :-\)
keep taking to us while you are waiting - I hope it's not too long. x
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Hi again Birdy - I haven't read all the responses in detail but the lozenge of combi products ie Bioidentical Hormone Therapy is not regulated and as such definitely not approved by gynaecologists. For a start I would be concerned if my oestrogen was reaching those levels ( and if you are post-menopausal?), whether the progesterone is sufficient to protect my womb lining. Also the testosterone - who can say how much you are getting of anything. The other possibility is the progesterone is too high rather than insufficient and hence you are suffering with the side effects. There are lots of us on here who wouldn't dream of taking progesterone every day because it makes us foggy-headed and lethargic.
I really would not be using this treatment at all any more as it's not working for you, and if you are wanting to use a private consultant do go to one recommended by the British Menopause Society. https://thebms.org.uk/find-a-menopause-specialist/ . You should be able to then get an individualised dose of the separate hormonal components.
I can't remember where you are in menopause but the separate bio = body-identical hormones of oestrogen and progesterone are available on NHS and you should be able to get a referral if they are unable to help or provide you with the products you want to try. The problem is the testosterone which is hit and miss as to whether it is available on NHS.
Taking testosterone exogenously (from outside the body rather than your own internal production) does not necessarily mean it will convert to oestrogen - otherwise there would be no point in taking it as a separate hormone. Certainly with the formerly licensed Intrinsa patches, these had no effect on oestrogen levels from what I recall of the detailed product study (if I'm remembering correctly).
However I would ditch the Gluck and start again - clearly this regime is not suiting you and making you miserbale and anxious - or at least not alleviating these feelings, and may also be causing you other problems re your womb lining. Is it a no-bleed regime and are you post-meno? Have just seen that Ladybt is more or less saying the same thing about the Gluck clinic!
ANyway I do hope you are feeling a bit better now. Try not to worry but take steps to change your HRT regime and go to someone different and take it from there. please ask if we can help any more about this too.
Hurdity x :bighug:
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I am probably going to go contrary to all popular opinion, but here goes.
I was born anxious, got significantly worse, no clear thought, anxious about everything. I started with ssri's didn't really help that much, then added sequi hrt- omg- the fog cleared with 3 ***** days-. I couldn't believe it. A year in still clear, odd annoying symptoms still hanging around, but memory and fog- resolved. I'm not saying I am right, but I was at the point where I would literally tried anything.
Never say never, give it a whirl and see what happens. Yes it might not work, but how will you know unless you try.
I am not ‘zoned out' on this lot at all. People say that AD are not for anxiety- some most definitely are. I'd rather take an Ssri, than a benzo
Life is for living. Don't rule anything out.
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The other possibility is the progesterone is too high rather than insufficient and hence you are suffering with the side effects. There are lots of us on here who wouldn't dream of taking progesterone every day because it makes us foggy-headed and lethargic.
I have to say that I would agree with Hurdity about progesterone - one type taken everyday which I tried nearly drove me insane Birdy - there is a phase we use here in Northern Ireland "I was beyond myself"! My posts are listed as "screaming inside" I was pretty much where you are. Some of us just can't take it everyday despite what any consultant would say "that we should be able to". It makes me very depressed. Luckily as I said I have binned my fogginess and memory problems and now with my very low dose testosterone - and I dont take that every day either I have made myself "present" in the world.
I would also agree with her that it may well be wiser to have them all separately so you can monitor how you react to certain levels of each one rather than having them all combined and having no way of knowing which bit is doing what.
Anyway, the crux of the problem is whatever it is its not right! You must do what you think is best, all I can say is I did exactly what I was told to do by ladies on this forum and I changed my treatment accordingly to what I had learnt. To be honest you cannot get worse than you are now, something else will be the same or different and in that way forward progress can be made! I was where you are in August 18 and am so much better so there is hope and Sgtvhilts is also much better and I know she has scouted about the forum and posted too.
There is hope Birdy honestly - I hope that you get your call tomorrow and have a better idea of what you need to do. Trust your gut, (hard when your brain is scrambled and you have so little confidence it's hard remember your own name when asked! ;)) don't just put blind faith in the experts because they don't live with the consequences of their suggestions!
I'm sure I can speak for the other ladies :-X but we will be thinking about you tomorrow - it will get sorted keep the faith! xx
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I have taken ADs twice, in the past, but for only a few months each time. They did what they were supposed to but as soon as I felt better I came off them.
I worry about taking any medication long term as who knows what effect they will have on our body chemistry. If you have any illness where long term meds are vital then fair enough. However, ADs for me were a temporary med until I could cope without. That is one reason why HRT has been off the cards for me. The idea of taking something for years is not in my makeup.
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It's the brain fog that is bothersome, doing things but not being able to remember! but that's been me for years++. I have a few coping skills as long as I remember to put them into place.
Because organic depression already made me unable to function at any level, once I found the 'right' AD I began to recover. It took several types though :-\ and we were down to the last one available by the time one began to ease symptoms ::). The body needs support in so many ways and we can forget about the brain up there until it begins to shut down or make itself noticed by becoming 'different'.
Shadyglade - if you were a diabetic :-\
Hope that you get on OK Birdy!
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It's the brain fog that is bothersome, doing things but not being able to remember! but that's been me for years++. I have a few coping skills as long as I remember to put them into place.
Because organic depression already made me unable to function at any level, once I found the 'right' AD I began to recover. It took several types though :-\ and we were down to the last one available by the time one began to ease symptoms ::). The body needs support in so many ways and we can forget about the brain up there until it begins to shut down or make itself noticed by becoming 'different'.
Shadyglade - if you were a diabetic :-\
Hope that you get on OK Birdy!
CLKD if you read my post I did say 'if you have an illness where long term meds are VITAL that's fine' ::)
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I went through meno very early. I think it was because I was very stressed at the time and I started bleeding continuously. I was given a Mirena Coil to stop the bleeding. I was 41. When I was 43, I had the coil removed because I felt really angry and anxious a lot. I never had a period again.
So I must have gone through meno between 41 and 43.
No one has ever explained why this happened so early but I think I have worked out why. It's called the pregnenalone steal. Basically, the master hormone, pregnenolone, stopped my progesterone production to make more cortisol to get me through the stress.
And I never recovered.
Which means I have suffered high cortisol many times and it is detrimental to health, and over time can lead to many serious health issues including dementia. I am more foggy headed today. I slept from 11.30 till about 6.
I think you have proved my point Birdy. The meds you were given have messed you up. Everything comes with side effects, some long lasting. Take what you need but not what you don't is my mantra. Unfortunately the patient notes which come with drugs are often incomplete or out of date. Plus some people don't even bother to read them.
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If we are post meno, and still have our ovaries, do we need progesterone every day as part of our HRT?
The answer to your question Birdy is that if we have a womb then we need progesterone to ensure that the lining sheds and there is no long term build up if you are using oestrogen. Which is why it is in your lozenge. But it is not necessary to take it every day. There are 2 methods (1) taking everyday is called a continuous cycle and the idea is to balance the amount of oestrogen against the amount of progesterone to achieve a "no bleed" scenario. There is no bleed because the lining does not build enough to bleed. (2) Taking it for a number of days only during a cycle which when you stop the progesterone after the number of days causes the lining to shed and you get a bleed. A Mirena coil works differently to progesterone taken orally or the Utrogestan taken vaginally.
Option (1) can be hard to achieve the balance and those of use who react quite badly to progesterone - (how do you know? so if you had bad PMT in the second phase of you period cycle when you had them is a good indicator) or you have felt very down when you take the progesterone part of hrt if you have ever had it separately - then it is not possible for us to take it on a continuous regime. A Mirena dispenses a very low dose inside the cervix - you have to try one to see if you can tolerate it - there is no other way. Some can tolerate it some can't it still gives them progesterone side effects so (2) is the option we have to go for if we cant do progesterone continuously and we have to put up with a bleed. The number of days varies as to how intolerant you are and what your consultant's views on "shortened cycle" is.
Hope that answers it for you and I haven't confused?
Glad you slept better :great: - try thinking about how you were when you were having periods and how your cycles went then?
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I was highlighting how the pregnenolone messed you up. Basically, that what we take can do more harm than good.
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Ah, now I understand.
Do you think you might be over thinking things Birdy. Perhaps start from where you are now and what you need now.
Glad you are sleeping better.
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Shadyglade - whatever I think about medication generally and whether taking it long term is a good idea or not - to be honest my hrt has given me back a life I have not had for over 30 years! Turns out I always had hormonal problems that went off the scale at meno. Its not an "illness" in the medical books or is it considered so in the world in general, but some of us are so bad with our symptoms, which do not go away, as they do in some ladies when we are post meno that we have no choice BUT to take it and continue to take it well past post meno. If things had continued the way they were, it is very probable that I would not be writing this today.
I am extremely jealous of those who can stop their hrt or do not need it to conduct their everyday lives - but those of us who do need it to even function should never feel guilty or worried that we DO have to take probably for a very long time! Personally I know I would be dead without it. It's a choice but why suffer when you can choose to live?
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Shadyglade - whatever I think about medication generally and whether taking it long term is a good idea or not - to be honest my hrt has given me back a life I have not had for over 30 years! Turns out I always had hormonal problems that went off the scale at meno. Its not an "illness" in the medical books or is it considered so in the world in general, but some of us are so bad with our symptoms, which do not go away, as they do in some ladies when we are post meno that we have no choice BUT to take it and continue to take it well past post meno. If things had continued the way they were, it is very probable that I would not be writing this today.
I am extremely jealous of those who can stop their hrt or do not need it to conduct their everyday lives - but those of us who do need it to even function should never feel guilty or worried that we DO have to take probably for a very long time! Personally I know I would be dead without it. It's a choice but why suffer when you can choose to live?
That's fine. What ever suits you for the best. I was just saying what suits me.
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Post menstrual Syndrome happens in the 10-14 days prior to a bleed. Symptoms stop immediately the period begins. Have a look-see at the NAPS site?
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Blasted predictive text or meno brain sorry :-\ - premenstrual of course. As I type NAPS I thought 'national association for pre-menstrual syndrome' ::)
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Probably hormonal though. My PMT consisted of:
sobbing the evening before a bleed began even if a period wasn't due
a change of location would bring on a bleed i.e. going abroad with the upheaval of travelling, different water and food plus being with a group of other girls
sudden hunger which would cause nausea++
anger - I would be OK for weeks about issues but in those 10-14 days I would FLY about the same thing >:( ::)
I would throw things in temper or kick doors
aching thighs
feeling like my bottom would fall out :o
- all would disappear once the bleed began, however, I had very heavy clots, INTENSE pains and nausea .......... for 1-2 days. I can't remember any problems after other than the requirement to wear heavy pads and change often and lay on a thick towel in the night :'(
What would cause symptoms at that end of your cycle?
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Sorry I'm late to this and haven't read anything...just caught my eye about feeling worse after a period than before....
since this whole peri thing started...I'm in that boat now. It's taken awhile to figure it out but I actually feel pretty decent (now...several months ago I was so much worse when I would start) when I start my cycle (minus the cramps and bleeding of course!) but mentally, I feel pretty good. My blood pressure gets nice and relaxed, my body relaxed...my heart rate drops down to an easy pace (Day 3 seems to be the peak of feeling pretty good). As the period progresses...I start to slowly feel worse...today, day 5, the palps are starting again, I'm feeling shaky and just a lot of physical anxiety (not mental). Once I can start on my progesterone again, this all starts to go away.. (rather quickly really). I am not totally sure of the reason...but my body definitely likes the lower levels of hormones (or the balance I have when they are all low) during that time and has issues as things rise. I don't know if it is because of the rise in hormones, the imbalance as they rise or my body trying so hard to make the hormones that it needs that puts me in this state. I just know what is working for me right now. I am only 36 so starting all this young...but expecting it to last a LONG time for me.
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Oh BlueButterfly that is so good to hear because you too were pretty rough for a while. :clapping: Feeling better creeps up on you doesn't it? and then somehow the picture clears and hey ho..but the tough bit is to hang on in there until it happens and sometimes that takes strength we think we don't have. You are only young and in peri, you will not be able to get rid of all the fluctuations but as long as they are getting better or are manageable you are on the right road!! :parti:
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UK Clear-blue .co.uk ......... reminding myself, talking out loud ::)
From the NAPS web-site [of which Prof Studd is a Consultant]
How does perimenopause affect PMS?
As women approach the perimenopause, hormone fluctuations become more exaggerated because the ovaries are not working well and the brain does not control ovarian function as efficiently. In women who are vulnerable to these hormonal changes premenstrual symptoms can commence or deteriorate. The PMS symptoms are often compounded by the start of menopause symptoms such as hot flushes, night sweats and insomnia.
Does PMS decrease with the Menopause?
Premenstrual symptoms will usually cease when women become post menopausal, typically one to two years after the final menstrual period. This is because the hormonal fluctuations which trigger the symptoms become much calmer and eventually settle down completely.
wellandgood.com - another site with vague reference to symptoms after a bleed.
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Birdy, wondering how you are feeling now?
I can relate to quite a few issues discussed in this thread.
My mother has early onset Alzheimer's (not so early anymore) and I'm always worrying about Alzheimers though neuro told me he thinks it's ADHD I have! ;D My daughter was diagnosed in 2016 and I then did suspect for myself too, though why am I so much worse now? I do think worrying doesn't help at all, but yes unfortunately there aren't good tests for Alzheimers until you are pretty far along.
Interested to read all the supportive tips, especially from ladybt28 about testosterone helping with clearing the mind and also the potential for issues from too much progesterone.
Finally on the time of month for pms, when I was still having periods, often my worst pms day was day 1 of my period. So not after, but definitely during.
XXx