Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: paisley on December 17, 2018, 06:00:44 AM
-
Has anyone come into the menopause not feeling good?
I ask because I had PND in 1991 for 7 years & it left me with a low grade anxiety & occasional depression. Not bad enough for medication but there in the background. February 2009 started peri menopause & at first nothing changed but by the October of that year all the awful symptoms came, anxiety, depression etc bus much worse. I had a full hysterectomy in May 2011 & still suffering greatly. Tried every HRT there is & sometimes they work for a bit & then not. After a lot of researching I am wondering if it is because my adrenals weren't in a good way coming into to this & until I address these no amount of HRT is going to work. I don't always think it is just about the HRT. Menopause puts so much extra pressure on the adrenals. This is were oestrogen comes from when we have none or our ovaries are failing. High Cortisol which gives us those horrible anxious feelings & low blood sugar comes from the adrenals. Stress lowers the adrenals too. I think if they aren't functioning properly when entering the menopause we are already at a major disadvantage to cope. I am coming to think that our bodies are like an orchestra & everything has to be in tune to work properly. Has anyone addressed this & felt better?
-
I totally agree with you paisley and wish maybe they could look into the adrenals. I got Pnd and then have M.e after my son 26 years ago and as most know there's no cure. I did at cortisol test and it showed low cortisol all them years ago and now my journey into the menopause I did another test and it shows high cortisol levels! My biggest symptom being my body in the fight or flight and having Adrenalin when having hot flushes and waking in a startled state for no reason. Low dose hrt has helped a bit but I know if my adrenals were normal it would be so much more easier and the aniexty may go completely.
-
People don't realise how important adrenal gland problems are to general and mental health. I included GPs in this.
Very interesting post paisley.
-
Although this video is primarily about Keto, it explains a lot about adrenals and menopause and what the body needs and is very short.
https://youtu.be/u2jYF8GD7Hg
-
This one explains why we get the symptoms of hot flushes etc:
https://youtu.be/fJ4CX9_soQU
Although he is a bit presumptuous about HRT causing cancer and strokes!
-
Hello ladies,
I agree, although established treatments are for deficient or overactive adrenals, usually a congenital defect or caused by tumors. The so called 'adrenal fatigue' is still a mystery. There are many websites talking about it but the scientific evidence is scarce. I am fascinated by this subject. What happens to the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis physiology during menopause? Surely the tremendous drop in hormone production by the ovaries will impact the adrenals but there are so few studies relating the HPA axis to the female reproductive system at this stage, most of them are about fertility and contraception. There are studies on chronic depression, bipolar disorder and chronic fatigue syndrome, it's about time to include menopause on the agenda.
I have been tested for blood cortisol a number of times, always within normal range, but I don't think this is enough. I think the hypothalamic and pituitary hormones (CRH and ACTH) should be tested in menopause, just like TSH is tested along with T4 and T3 to diagnose hypo/hyperthyroidism. DHEA is another adrenal hormone that has caught the attention of scientists a while ago, but the studies have come to a halt until recently. Meanwhile, a lot of DHEA is being sold OTC worldwide with mixed results. I have taken it for 6 months during perimenopause (I was willing to try anything, including suicide) and I had some interesting results: an increase in vaginal lubrication and libido. It didn't touch anxiety, fatigue and hot flushes though.
Thank you for the links, dangermouse. I'm going to watch them now.
Well, I liked the videos (and the 'Dr' lol), he's certainly making some money with his formula, but everyone has to survive, right? I agree with the basic information and advice he provides, not sure if I would buy his formula though. I have recently bought some vegetarian Omega 3 (from algae) to try to decrease my cholesterol and triglycerides levels. Fingers crossed.
Are you still on the keto diet, dangermouse?
Conolly X
-
I replied to this earlier and I think there were others that got deleted in the forum back-up but I had saved mine because I was trying to post when weird things were happening!
I haven't looked into this recently but I haven't read anything that suggests adrenal fatigue is a condition that needs treating - with supplements anyway.
As for those videos – sorry dangermouse – but what a load of twaddle that guy talked!!!
The first one - was just a long winded way to say we need to stabilise our blood sugar levels more when we are peri-menopausal and beyond and suggested ways of doing it - well we all know that don't we girls?!
As for the second one - words fail me!!! It really was beyond belief and patronising. Yeah right -flushes, sweats and vaginal dryness are not “normal†responses to menopause (cue his silly fingers doing inverted commas), just a malfunction of the adrenals – so just support the adrenals before menopause by taking all my supplements and you'll be fine. :o As for the strokes and cancer caused by HRT – well words fail me!!!
Paisley – sorry to hear you are not feeling right still and yes I agree the adrenal glands as with all our organs – are very important but other than the two conditions causing too little and too much cortisol (Addisons and Cushings) I don't know of any way of testing for other less than optimal functioning along the spectrum so that this can be measured and treated. As far as I understand – the best way to “support the adrenals†is as always to eat a very good diet full of natural unprocessed foods, get plenty of exercise. Reduce stress and alcohol and get plenty of sleep. Happy to be educated further if there is something up-to-date on this. Did you have your ovaries removed when you had your total hysterectomy? If so then you would have been put into surgical menopause which makes it more challenging to stabilise your hormones subsequently. Are you still taking HRT or testosterone? Are you managing to stabilise your blood sugar with diet? I hope you manage to find a way forward to feel better – but I would suggest to persevere with HRT, add in testosterone, and try to adopt all the diet and lifestyle measures you can for optimal adrenal (and general) health.
In your position I would adopt all the healthy diet and lifestyle options that you can, perservere with HRT giving each type a good length of time (after all you don't have to take progesterone which is a very big bonus and should help to make it easier to sort out the right dose..), if you have no ovaries ( or even if you have) think about adding testosterone, and take it from there. I do hope you are able to find a way forward to feel better in the short and long term. All the best.
Hurdity x
-
Interesting videos ladies. I have always felt that meno symptoms should not be looked at in isolation to other body functions and influences.
Food for thought.
-
Yes I only came across them yesterday, I do think that there must be a reason why some women suffer and others don't and, as the adrenals take over when the ovaries pack up, this does make sense to me.
It's the first time I've heard a proper explanation for hot flushes etc. and I suspect he made them before it was proven that HRT was safe.
Hey, Conolly, I haven't been doing the Keto diet but I may revisit it (after Christmas!), hence my discovering more about how to make it work with meno and I also came across a pre-alkaline diet that you do before Keto to help the body adapt more quickly, as I do have a lot of rubbish stored in my fat cells and cellulite that always pops out and overwhelms me whenever I try to burn fat!
I know most of these guys will have some supplements that they also promote but that doesn't affect their credibility if they also have free info that helps.
I personally do believe that HRT (including my progesterone cream) is a sticking plaster approach and I would prefer to get my body functioning correctly as with all the women who don't suffer through meno, especially as I have aunts in their mid 80s (who've never taken HRT) who have endless energy compared to me!
-
My son lost 2 stone on Keto.
-
Hello Dangermouse,
Do you think that maybe women who were on the pill until their late 50's could be somehow 'protected' against the perimenopause roller coaster?
Conolly X
-
I was on the pill until early 40s (for about 20 years) and always felt strange whenever I tired to stop it. I think now it was silent migraines.
It helped me 3 years ago again to stop the volatility but then the surges still poked through and now it definitely wouldn't be enough to control my cycle!
-
Sorry my post got deleted yesterday for some reason. I know a lot of doctors say adrenal fatigue doesn't exist but how do we explain the high cortisol levels when we are anxious & the surges of Adrenalin which as the name says comes from the Adrenals. If these are the main producer of oestrogen after our ovaries fail & we have anxiety before we go into menopause it stands to reason we aren't going to fair well. I still don't think the HRT will work on these women until we address this underlining cause. We can call it adrenal fatigue, high cortisol, panic whatever it is still the same thing. Dr Lam writes some very good articles on this. I don't believe everything he says ie : we need more progesterone because I am intolerant to it but he does have some good articles.
-
Our GP definitely accepts adrenal fatigue and has treated a family member for it. It takes a while for new consepts to take hold and I'm sure, if there is more research, it will become more mainstream as a treatable condition.
-
I'm pretty sure it's measurable too as it shows up in your ratio of potassium to sodium amongst others.
I studied under Dr Larry Wilson several years ago (as I was going to introduce hair mineral analysis to my practice) and my levels showed I was in the ‘alarm phase' of adrenal stress. I used tiny amounts of vitamins and minerals to try to gently rebalance, which did make me feel a lot better for a while, but the nutritionist I was assigned to thought there was something more going on with me as my levels were so outrageous. He suggested cutting out all sugar as well but I didn't try that until years later and had stopped the vits and testing then.
The problem with asking MD doctors' advice on nutritional healing is that they only study disease and not health, so they only know about drastic problems with the adrenals like Addisons. I think most would agree though that being nutritionally balanced will keep you in better health.
-
This is Larry Wilson's take on menopause:
MENOPAUSAL SYMPTOMS
Menopause should occur without difficulties if the adrenal and thyroid glands function normally. In fact, it should be a time of great joy, ease and even relief for women who have been concerned with unwanted pregnancy or perhaps plagued by symptoms related to premenstrual tension, heavy menstrual bleeding, or other symptoms.
However, if the adrenal and thyroid glands are not functioning well, many women experience hot flashes, fatigue, irritability, depression and perhaps vaginal dryness at menopause. Also, their risk for osteoporosis and some cancers increases.
None of these symptoms or diseases are inevitable, and they can all be handled without using hormones, drugs, or herbal products such as Amberen, black cohosh, and others.
CAUSES OF MENOPAUSAL SYMPTOMS
The hormonal theory.
One way to understand menopausal symptoms is that imbalances in the thyroid and adrenal glands interact with lowered hormone levels. This occurs most often when the ovaries cease producing the same amount of ovarian hormones such as estrogen and progesterone.
Normally, the adrenal glands should increase or balance the lower ovarian production and there should be no symptoms. If they do not do this, then symptoms arise.
Said differently, the inappropriate responses of the adrenal and thyroid glands to the changes in the ovarian hormones are what cause the vast majority of menopausal symptoms.
This means that correcting thyroid and adrenal imbalances can go a long way to preventing and correcting menopausal symptoms.
The stress theory.
A second way to look at menopausal symptoms is that a hormonal change causes added stress on the body. The woman's glandular system can react by having occasional ‘flashes' of adrenal activity, which are most annoying, though they are not harmful as far as medical science knows. This might be called the stress theory of menopause, which is also essentially correct.
THE ADRENALS AND MENOPAUSE
The adrenal glands, perched on top the kidneys, produce small quantities of both male and female sex hormones. At the menopause, the adrenal glands should produce adequate estrogens, progesterone and other needed hormones in the correct balance and amounts to avoid symptoms that can occur when ovarian hormone production of these hormones diminishes.
However, many women today have a
condition that is termed adrenal insufficiency. This is basically underactivity of the adrenal glands. These women's adrenals do not respond correctly to the new need for sex hormones in response to diminished ovarian hormone secretion. Briefly, the causes of weakened adrenals include stress of any kind, nutritional deficiencies and almost always a buildup of toxic substances. These include toxic metals and perhaps environmental chemicals in the adrenal glands themselves and/or in the pituitary gland, which regulates the adrenal glands, signaling them when and how much of its hormones to secrete.
At times, an imbalance of the autonomic nervous system is at fault as well. This can cause the adrenals to malfunction, secreting either too much or too little or the incorrect balance of hormones. This brings us to the other vital gland involved in menopause symptoms.
THE THYROID GLAND AND MENOPAUSE
The thyroid gland is the other piece of the puzzle that frequently is involved in menopausal symptoms. This is not to say there are not other causes, which are covered later. However, thyroid imbalances are very common and definitely affect female hormone regulation in the body.
The thyroid produces thyroxine, a powerful hormone that affect the burning of sugar or glucose in the body and in so doing regulates the rate of metabolism, body temperature and much more. It is such a critical hormone that many people are given thyroid hormone replacement when they feel tired, cold, short of breath or have thin, brittle or falling hair. Low thyroid activity can also cause weight gain, a sallow complexion and many more problems for a person.
CAUSES OF THYROID IMBALANCE
Thyroid difficulties are extremely common and almost universal due to iodine deficiency, in part due to the presence of iodine antagonists in the environment such as fluorides, chlorine compounds and bromides in baked goods such as breads.
I find that diagnostic names such as hypothyroidism, Hashimoto's thyroiditis or others are less important than figuring out and correcting the biochemical imbalances affecting the thyroid gland.
The gland is either toxic, depleted of vital nutrients like iodine, or affected by tumors, or is not functioning correctly due to pituitary gland problems. This gland, often called the master gland, secretes TSH or thyroid stimulating hormone. This hormone directs the thyroid to secrete its hormone in the proper amount.
Other thyroid imbalances that are somewhat less common include an inability to convert T4, a largely inactive hormone, to its active form called T3 or triiodothyronine. This imbalance is called Wilson's Syndrome, and can be researched on the internet. It is overdiagnosed in our opinion since many times the cause is once again a toxic or depleted body chemistry. Specifically, selenium and other nutrients are greatly deficient in this condition and it usually responds to the type of nutritional therapy that we suggest.
Another cause of thyroid problems that is extremely common is stress. This is a general term for excessive physical, mental or emotional activity that overtaxes the gland. When it can no longer respond correctly, it malfunctions, either secreting too much or too little hormone. These are among the major causes of thyroid imbalances.
Another cause of thyroid imbalances, touched upon but in need of elaboration, is mental and emotional stress that affects the thyroid gland, in particular. Women are much more prone to this stress-related condition than men.
In general, women are less accustomed to expressing themselves completely. They have been shut out of the mainstream of society by men and by tradition in many cases, for generations. As a result, when faced with a crisis, they often go into a form of “overdrive†or a more technical term is a stress response that severely taxes their thyroid gland. When this occurs, and it can happen at any age and usually in childhood, the thyroid is severely damaged. The problem frequently does not reveal itself on tests until menopause, when the deficiency of ovarian hormones places added stress on a woman's body.
At this time, the problem “catches up†with the woman and she experiences symptoms that are attributed to menopause but are really due to an underlying thyroid imbalance. The thyroid problem may or may not be revealed on standard blood tests.
However, it is very apparent on properly interpreted hair mineral analyses and often by symptoms such as a low body temperature, dry hair and very dry skin at times, fatigue, weight gain in some cases and perhaps other related conditions.
Another very unusual cause of thyroid difficulties is problems in the batteries that are in the thyroid gland. These have to do with supplying energy to the gland.
THE BONES AND MENOPAUSE
Bone health is impacted by menopausal symptoms. Copper is sometimes involved in this process. Copper helps fix calcium in the bones. Without adequate bioavailable copper, calcium may go to the bones, but does not remain as well as it should.
Another related syndrome we call slow oxidation involves the bones. Slow oxidizers, as those with sluggish adrenals and thyroid activity are termed, often have biounavailable calcium and magnesium because the body cannot keep these minerals in solution in the blood and they precipitate or collect in the soft tissues instead. The body then robs the bones of calcium to place more calcium into the blood. This is also explained more in another article on this website, Osteoporosis.
Lead can also enter the bones and weaken them and this is the case in many, many women. Like the fatigue and stress feelings, the bone problems often begin to show up at the time of menopause or afterwards. At this time, the hormone system is under more stress and begins to malfunction more obviously.
-
Wow dangermouse! What a terrific article - so interesting. Thank you so much for sharing xx
-
Thank you for posting all this! I have suspected some adrenal issues but nothing shows up on standard tests. The doctor who did the tests is not against the idea of adrenal fatigue but doesnt know much about treating it.
-
Blue Butterfly that's the problem isn't it - there may be something in this but unless you can find someone who really is an expert in treating it it really leaves us no further forward. And unfortunately you're highly unlikely to find that person on the NHS, so we''re talking about spending a hell of a lot of money on something that may or may not make any difference at all. Personally I'm wary, probably because I've been through the whole alternative cancer treatment bombardment, and to be honest you could spend your entire lottery winnings on this stuff and be no further forward, because in the end nobody really knows. And with the menopause it may in the end just be time that heals, but the alternative practitioners/quacks/whatever will always try to claim it was their particular enema, extreme diet or Amazonian tree frog poison that did the trick....;)
-
He does have a free programme - either done thoroughly with supplements (they suggest brands or tell you what needs to be in them to source own, so not selling them) or just following the dietary advice:
http://drlwilson.com/articles/HEALING%20LIFESTYLE.htm
I did have a practitioner who I just emailed and it wasn't expensive, which gives a more personalised plan from hair analysis.
I do regret not sticking with it as I remember I did feel better but then thought I was ok and so stopped.
-
But even just the supplements can be incredibly expensive - they have to be the right quality, brand etc. and tbh you have no way of knowing if they're what's making the difference (if they do), especially if you're taking a number of different ones. To be really rigorous about it you need to introduce one thing at a time and then give it a while to see what happens. I'm not convinced....
-
That's fine racjen. We all follow our own path. But to be honest conventional meds are often trial and error and that's nearly £9 a pop.
If you don't mind me asking do you take anything for meno symptoms, alternatives or HRT, and if so any success?
-
I think the diet aspect is the most important (as in the high amounts of cooked veg he advises for getting the nutrients) and avoiding raw foods and keeping salt intake a little higher.
The main point though is that there is clearly something about our body chemistries that mean some women suffer terribly when hormones go awry and others have zero symptoms (I am the former, my mum the latter).
I also started reacting to the slightest toxic chemicals after 35 (fluoride toothpastes and alum antiperspirants made me break out in a hot sweat and get palpitations) so, even once peri surges calm down, I'd like to strengthen my endocrine system for long term health.
-
Shadyglade, yes I've been struggling with awful depression and anxiety symptoms for over a year now. The depression has improved with a high dose of Evorel (currently on 150) but nothing makes any difference to the anxiety - it was triggered by starting utrogestan, but now it makes no difference whether I take it or not, it's the same every day. Can't take ADs or other drugs as I'm super-sensitive to them, have tried everything going. Also tried CBD oil, same problem plus it's expensive and you need a very high dose to combat anxiety (apparently).
-
Gosh, it's a bugger isn't it.
Don't give up though. You will either find something that helps or hopefully the symptoms will settle. :hug:
-
I do find having a better diet helps... especially cutting down on the sweets. I'm not doing so well with that at this time of year. But they sure taste good.
As far as supplements and quality, etc. I think something is better than nothing really. Yes, on some of my vitamins/supplements I feel they need to be better quality but the cheap ones work for some of them as well. I think you have to listen to your body on everything.
From what I've read with adrenal fatigue, there's really nothing too drastic that needs to be done to help improve their function. Most of the dietary changes seem to go along with changes that help hormonal issues as well. And the vitamins etc are things I already take for other reasons. And the lifestyle changes are just good for you all around.
-
The issue with thyroid in balance is that our NHS tests are not extensive enough and they miss one of the key elements - testing at all for T3 levels. Thyroid Uk outline what should be tested and I have listed it here but the other issue is if your levels are on the low end of the scale they may be within the NHS range but that level may be too low or too high for your own body personally.
TSH, TT4 AND FT4
There is a range, which is used for the tests. These vary sometimes which is why you must always ask what the range is, so that you can see where you are in the range.
TSH = THYROID STIMULATING HORMONE
This hormone comes from the pituitary to stimulate the thyroid gland into making more hormone. TSH rises when the thyroid is struggling.
The approx. reference range for this test is 0.4 to 4.5.
TT4 = TOTAL T4
Thyroid hormones bound to proteins. TT4 lowers when the thyroid is struggling.
The approx. reference range for this test is 50 to 160.
FT4 = FREE T4
Thyroid hormones not bound to proteins. FT4 lowers when the thyroid is struggling.
The approx. reference range for this test is 10 to 24
FT3 = FREE T3
T4 converts to T3 and is the only thyroid hormone actually used by the body's cells.
The approx. reference range for Free T3 is 4 to 8.3
We at Thyroid UK believe that you need to know your Free T3 level too because this will often show low if you are not converting, and high if you have blocked receptor cells. Even if you are converting, the body needs the extra T3 that a normal thyroid produces. There has been some research to show that people feel better on a mixture of Thyroxine (T4) and Triiodothyronine (T3). Effects of Thyroxine as Compared with Thyroxine plus Triiodothyronine in patients with hypothyroidism – The New England Journal of Medicine Feb.11, 99 Vol. 340.
In terms of adrenal fatigue the NHS only believe if you have symptoms of Addisons Disease which is very rare in the UK would they actually send you to an endocrinologist to test your adrenal function. The symptoms are fairly dramatic including a craving for salt and darkening of the skin to make it Addisons, but the other symptoms are fatigue, changes in blood pressure, nausea, diahhrea, weight loss and weakness which to be honest can be the symptoms for loads of things. I am pretty sure that if you have "reduced/poor" adrenal function which can be impaired by stress you would have fatigue like symptoms but you wouldn't have Addisons but there is never going to be any way you would know because no one tests for it.
I know it can be fixed with supplements BlueButterfly but which ones and the right balance is very hit and miss without accurate benchmarks. I know because I tried it all based on the American theories which were well before their time here and when such ideas were considered totally bonkers. Adrenal fatigue has been in discussion outside mainstream medical circles for over 30 year together with the discussions about causes of chronic fatigue and ME which have expanded on to gut health etc etc. Did anyone see the recent press article which outlined a study which showed that CF/ME is probably an overactive immune response - nothing new really but a bit more confirmation.
I've often described our bodies like a poorly tuned engine when they go awry. Put the wrong oil in, or have the wrong mix of oil, air and water and they splutter or dont work at all. There are so many chemicals that we need to balance and process inside each one of us which can be affected by a million things,including our height weight, genetics etc, it's no wonder they go up the left!!!
-
Interesting view about the adrenals. But it is very difficult to self medicate with supplements. Having said that I am tentatively experimenting with having the adrenal cocktail someone mentioned on here, mainly cos it was cheap! Trouble is, my anxiety is so high these days that as soon as I try something myself, I then worry it's going to make me worse. I've bought quite a bit of stuff from health food shops etc for health issues and none have worked. Dosing, quality and price make it very hit and miss.
-
Hi ladies can I poke my oar in and suggest you have a look on Dr Rangan Chatterjee website you'll get masses of free tips and podcasts and down to earth advice from him.hes one of the new breed of lifestyle doctors who believes we can turn things around with diet and lifestyle choices and has proven it time and time again with his tv series in the UK.i wish to god I had a gp like him and I'm using his advice to come through my meno hrt free now and it seems to be working well. unfortunately hrt just wasn't for me after many attempts.have a nosy if nothing else it's worth it.good luck DD😘
-
:great:
-
Hello DD,
Will have a look, thank you.
:-*
Conolly X
-
There is always so much emphasis on loss of hormone profile and replacement of estrogen/progesterone/testosterone - however surely adrenal and thyroid function/health also plays a huge part during/after menopause - also blood sugar fluctuations. It's all so complex, not just about replacing estrogen.
http://doctorkatend.com/have-you-been-waking-in-the-middle-of-the-night-since-menopause/
-
Totally agree Night_Owl - its one of my bugs about the NHS. If they actually did proper testing and treated people as individuals I think they could save millions because of wrong diagnosis and prescribing wrong meds and sending us all to consultants to review conditions we DONT have! I think a more holistic approach would be better too - its no good a rheumatologist saying "its fibromylgia when its lax muscles due to meno or.... saying its not fibro, or arthritis but I don't know what it is" and then nothing else happens you are back to your GP because each one sticks to their speciality and there is no one in the middle with a broad spectrum knowledge. I know it should be your GP but I find they seem to know less as the years go by not more either that or they just cant be bothered.
Droppydrawers - I wish he was my GP I loved his program, he wasnt afraid to takle all the chronic tiredness and weird symptoms that go on for years, mess up peoples lives but no medical professional can seem to get a handle on!
Articles interesting Night_Owl - problem is sometimes I am not going to sleep until 3-2 in the morning - my sleep patterns are all over the place!