Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: racjen on September 18, 2018, 04:13:09 PM
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I am so confused by my reaction to Utrogestan - it seems to keep changing. Having found it impossible to tolerate at 200mg for 10 days every 3 months I've been trying 100mg for 10 days every month. A pattern has emerged: initially I feel much better - less anxious, calmer, just more normal, but terrible insomnia and constant stomach ache. Then around day 5 the depression and weepiness starts and from there on it's all downhill, in fact I never make it through the full 10 days. I'm confused though that it makes me feel better to start with - does that just mean the dose is too high? I tried doing the alternate day routine last month, but even one day off means I bleed constantly throughout the 10 days, plus the on/off nature of it made me feel crap. I had the bright (?) idea of freezing the capsules so you can cut them in half accurately - is that a mad idea? Has anybody tried it (unlikely I know, I'm clutching at straws now).
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hi there,
what dose is your oestrogen and how do you take the utrogestan?
I use 50mcg estradot changed twice a week and utrogestan 100mg capsule vaginally continuously . I couldnt tolerate the utrogestan orally ( depression/ lethargy/ loss of libido) but its made a huge difference taking it vaginally, no side effects to speak of today but... I cant afford to increase the oestrogen or miss taking the utrogestan as this results in spotting . A steady constant dose ( of both ) is apparently what suits me best. I did try alternate days utro but it caused bleeding. I also plan to have regular uterine scans to ensure the utrogestan is doing its job ( last one 2.9 mm)
Never thought of freezing the capsules ( to halve the dose) as 200mg for minimum of 10/12 days per month or 100mg daily is the recommended dose for uterine protection It may be worth seeking more info with regards to minimum effective , protective , progesterone dose.
Hope this is helpful.
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Hello racjen,
Freezing is probably going to inactivate the progesterone. Some ladies on another forum (I think it's Mumsnet, but I'm not sure) have pricked a small hole with a needle and squirted half the content of an Utrogestan capsule just before inserting it.
Conolly X
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Re the freezing of utrogestan - a few years ago (2011!) on here another member did that for the same reason - but not sure of the outcome. I had a search but can't find reference to it so I think we must have discussed this by e-mail as we were in touch back then.
In terms of temperature inactivation - the product info does not list any special storage conditions for utrogestan re temperature so it may well be OK in this regard. However more to the point would be that if taking vaginally this is not advisable because you would not want it to be frozen when you inserted it ::), so the progesterone from the cut end would leak out too quickly and therefore even less would probably get to your uterus. The capsule is designed to at least be slightly slow release ie overnight rather than all at once so I don't think your uterus would be protected so well - especially as you would be using much less than the licensed dose. If using orally then I doubt this would be sufficient (50 mg) - but depends on your oestrgoen dose.
Can you explore these different options with your specialist? For example given your circumstances could you be put on a shorter cycle under supervision with regular scans? Can you get a referral to Bournemouth (the nearest NHS menopause clinic to the West Country!) - although I think there is a long wait?
Unfortunately the amount of progesterone needed to protect the uterus is higher than some women can tolerate taken vaginally or orally. Orally especially, because so much is lost - you need to take a higher amount. The initial feeling of calm is probably because it has a sedative effect and in small doses some women find this helpful but in larger doses or as it builds up the sedation can become fatigue, lethargy, bloating, headache etc - not nice.
I am so sorry to hear of your ongoing problems and do hope you manage to find a regime that works for you so that at least you feel better more of the time than not.
Hurdity x
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Thanks everyone, it was a long shot but I'm so desperate I'll try anything. I'm on Evorel 100 so I know that in the long term 50mg of UTrogestan wouldn't be enough anyway. And I do already take it vaginally but it gives me pretty constant side effects, but just wanting to do some research myself while waiting for the incredibly slow grind of the NHS wheels. The consultant Gynae I saw 2 weeks ago in Torbay (for 15 mins) failed to make the immediate follow-up appointment she said she would, so I've had to chase it up and now have to wait till Oct 2nd just to get Mirena fitted to see if that works better. But as far as I know she's not particularly a menopause expert - despite my quite extreme situation I simply cannot get a referral to a specialist menopause clinic :(.
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Hello Hurdity,
Freezing may not inactivate progesterone but the thawing process should be done the right way, the same principle applies to frozen food ;)
Hello again racjen,
I'm so sorry you're not having the support you deserve from the NHS. Have you already tried the combined patches with both estradiol and synthetic progesterone?
Conolly X
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Yes, trouble is I need a high level of estradiol due to chemotherapy-induced sudden menopause, and as far as I can make out the only way to get this is to do separate estradiol and progesterone. I did try oral Elleste, and FemSeven patches very early on, but neither did anything at all for me. The NHS just doesn't seem to know what to do with me....
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Well, I only made it to Day 7 this time - the constant stomach ache, nausea and increasing depression have just floored me on top of dealing with daily anxiety. Stopped taking it yesterday and today the withdrawal depression is the worst ever, have spent the whole day crying and ended up retreating to bed for the afternoon. I just hope this doesn't drag on for too long, have to keep reminding myself that
I know what's causing it, I'm not just depressed....If nothing else it has at least convinced me it's worth trying a Mirena instead.
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racjen :bighug:
Hurdity x
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I know exactly how you feel, I take utrogestan 100 orally, when I start taking it I feel so much better but the longer I take it the worse I feel, I also suffer with stomach pains and low mood plus IBS gets worse, consultant wants me to take it every day, but I have been stopping every 3/4 weeks depending on how long I can preserve for, I stop for 2 weeks then start again, i'm not sure whether to preserve or not, would be very interested if you do find a way through this maze!!!
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Racjen are you using 100mg Utrogestan every night vaginally or every other night?
If you are doing it every night, next time try every other night. Dr Newson said that 100 every other night is considered the same as 100 oral every night and gives better uterine protection because it's getting to the right place.
I was doing pretty well on 100 every other night vaginally. I thought "well this feels nice so I'll take it every night to see it if helps my fluid retention" and I tried it over the end of last week/weekend. BIG mistake. I became a zombie in a very few days and now, about 3 days after going back to alternate nights I'm still tired out and depressed. I'm hoping tomorrow I'll start to even back out a bit. I take it continuously.
It's worth trying because you feel good at first, just need to find out how to avoid the build up.
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I know exactly how you feel, I take utrogestan 100 orally, when I start taking it I feel so much better but the longer I take it the worse I feel, I also suffer with stomach pains and low mood plus IBS gets worse, consultant wants me to take it every day, but I have been stopping every 3/4 weeks depending on how long I can preserve for, I stop for 2 weeks then start again, i'm not sure whether to preserve or not, would be very interested if you do find a way through this maze!!!
Try it vaginally every other night. I've been reliably told that is the equivalent of 100 every night orally so it's ample for continuous dosing. As I've just said above, I felt I missed it on the nights I wasn't using it so I increased to every night vaginally last weekend. Nope! That's not good for me. Now I have to wait for the build up to ease off and back to every other night it is.
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Hello racjen.
I'm sorry that you are suffering so much.
I am post meno and using 3 Oestrogel pumps and 100mg Utrogestan vaginally and still feel horrible so I completely understand your frustration and despair. Do you have times of the day when you feel better or are your symptoms constant throughout the day? Have you had any advice about your nausea and stomach ache and has it been confirmed that these symptoms are indeed due to Utrogestan rather than continuing low oestrogen?
I've been following your journey and I sincerely hope that you find a successful regime soon.
Wishing you well.
K.
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My oestrogen is fine, around 1000pmol when last checked a few months ago. I have tried every other night on Utrogestan and it just resulted in constant bleeding, still the stomach problems and a kind of see-sawing of mood so not much better. Maybe I didn't try it for long enough, but I'm fed up with having to work this all out for myself. So far the specialist NHS input (after a year of major problems) has been 15mins with a consultant gynaecologist who doesn't really seem to have a clue. No NHS menopause clinics in this area so the general attitude seems to be - tough....
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Hello again racjen.
You do seem to have been left to flounder which is heartbreaking given your extreme symptoms.
Mary G's opinion is that many women give up on HRT altogether and then suffer in silence because the treatment they've been given is inadequate.
All you can do is continue to fight your corner and of course the lovely ladies of the forum will be with you every step of the way.
Wishing you well and sending hugs.
K.
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I honestly don't know the exact reason but having been on progesterone only for the last 2 years, trying all different types, doses and patterns, I have concluded that, despite advice to take it for half the month to mirror your own cycle (for prog only) it only works if you take it every day.
The first few days you feel good as you're getting a therapeutic effect of replacing a hormone that is low. Then it sets off some kind of reaction, I can only surmise based on theories, that it could be:
a) wakening up dampened down receptors (could be oestrogen, cortisol, who knows!) in response to the extra progesterone.
b) GABA receptors suddenly reacting.
c) a reduction in our own endogenous progesterone levels in response to the exogenous progesterone.
The symptoms can be: bowel cramping and wind, anxiety, anger, restlessness, irritability, nausea, dizziness and increased migraines.
However, after a few weeks the symptoms lessen and then they go away, as long as you don't stop the progesterone.
I suspect that all the starting and stopping as part of most of the HRT regimes is what is assumed to be a progesterone intolerance, when it's actually the body not having time to adjust.
I have no scientific evidence for any of this, it's just my own very long term, carefully studied experience.
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Hey Racjen-
do the consultants want your oestrogen to be 1000pmol? Mine is 30 for comparison? I don't feel good on 30, but i'd be climbing the walls with levels as high as yours!!
Is it definitely the progestogen alone that's making you miserable?
I appreciate that your circumstances are very different to mine and that maybe it's comparing apples with oranges!
Wishing you all the best x
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I honestly don't know the exact reason but having been on progesterone only for the last 2 years, trying all different types, doses and patterns, I have concluded that, despite advice to take it for half the month to mirror your own cycle (for prog only) it only works if you take it every day.
The first few days you feel good as you're getting a therapeutic effect of replacing a hormone that is low. Then it sets off some kind of reaction, I can only surmise based on theories, that it could be:
a) wakening up dampened down receptors (could be oestrogen, cortisol, who knows!) in response to the extra progesterone.
b) GABA receptors suddenly reacting.
c) a reduction in our own endogenous progesterone levels in response to the exogenous progesterone.
The symptoms can be: bowel cramping and wind, anxiety, anger, restlessness, irritability, nausea, dizziness and increased migraines.
However, after a few weeks the symptoms lessen and then they go away, as long as you don't stop the progesterone.
I suspect that all the starting and stopping as part of most of the HRT regimes is what is assumed to be a progesterone intolerance, when it's actually the body not having time to adjust.
I have no scientific evidence for any of this, it's just my own very long term, carefully studied experience.
That's very interesting Dangermouse. I too used progesterone only in cream form for several years and apart from feeling terrible for the first 2 days, properly zombied, I felt fine on it. I have been using it for 3 years now in cream form with cream oestrogen (compounded, frowned upon here) and it was fine but overall my levels of everything were getting worse and worse. So I've recently switched to Estrogel and Utrogestan vaginally. I'm kicking myself because I was doing OK taking it every other night but decided I wanted to take it every night. I only did it for a very short time, about 4 nights in a row, and I was almost unable to function. So I stopped and went back to every other night but I am not right again yet. Still very tired and miserable and foggy. I should probably have stuck with it for another few days. It's so hard when trying to work! I'm also in dire need of increasing my levothyroxine dose and don't want to make two changes at once. I hope I soon go back to feeling how I did before I messed with it. If I could take 2 weeks off work I'd slug it out with every night to see if I could get through it. But I can't.
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Hey Racjen-
do the consultants want your oestrogen to be 1000pmol? Mine is 30 for comparison? I don't feel good on 30, but i'd be climbing the walls with levels as high as yours!!
Is it definitely the progestogen alone that's making you miserable?
I appreciate that your circumstances are very different to mine and that maybe it's comparing apples with oranges!
Wishing you all the best x
30 is very low - when mine was that low I felt terrible, very very depressed. I went to see Dr. Sarah Gray privately a few times because my GP was absolute rubbish, and she recommended getting it up to at least 800 for depressive symptoms (and I know Dr. Studd advocates at least that level for many women). However, I haven't been able to afford to see her again and so far I've only seen the NHS consultant once for 15 mins. So no, there's no evidence that it's progesterone alone that's the problem, but it definitely does give me terrible side-effects and even worse withdrawal symptoms. The acute morning anxiety I get throughout the cycle is anyone's guess - the only certainty is that it was triggered overnight by starting Utrogestan and then never went away. But I guess it could be that the oestrogen level is now too high. If I ever get another NHS appointment I'll ask her opinion, but I get the impression my own guesswork is as good as hers to be honest, so maybe I should just try reducing the dose myself anyway.
What makes me really angry is that if I'd had a surgical menopause I'd have been offered gynaecological follow-up as a matter of course. Chemotherapy menopause is, to all intents and purposes, the same thing, but you're just left on your own to deal with it and if you try and get help they treat you like some kind of freak.
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The problem with alternate day progesterone is that limited studies have been carried out only on low or medium doses of oestrogen and because the endometrial repsonse to oestrogen (and the corresponding protective dose of progesterone) is dose dependent - on high doses of oestrogen there may well be spotting and less control of bleeding on such a regime than with low to medium oestrogen doses. Sadly this is another case of surgical and chemical menopause (ie sudden artificial cessation of ovarian activity before natural menopause has occurred) not having sufficient info or studies on which to base dosage and in your case racjen having a double whammy of no ovaries (and the hormonal fall-out from this) but also still having a uterus meaning you are not only struggling with finding the right oestrogen dose but also having to cope with progesterone too!
Re the progesterone theories - progesterone intolerance is well-documented and recognised by the gynaes - the adverse effects of continuous low grade progestogenic side effects is enshrined in the BMS and Women's Health Concern recommendations on HRT - as I recall. The effects of adding progesterone and the progesterone withdrawal effects (which most women experience as part of pms) are separate from intolerance to the progestogens themselves. An example is the sedative effect of progestogens - this doesn't go away with time- when we're pregnant we are tired all the way through but we also have very high oestrogen levels which enables us to cope!
There is still a question mark over the role of progesterone in breast cancer so I wouldn't want to take it all the time (for a long time anyway ie years and into older age) while this is still considered a risk - although all risks need weighing up against quality of life of coruse!
From memory progesterone receptors are activated in the presence of oestrogen. The GABA thing (I'm a bit hazy on the details here) is more of an issue with oral progesterone - because it is the metabolic breakdown products from utrogestan after oral intake that bind to GABA receptors - pregnanolone maybe?
Our own progesterone is very low in the absence of ovulation - post-menopausally and during the first part of the menstural cycle. As far as I know if you are still ovulating and therefore producing your own progesterone this is unaffected by adding progesterone exogenously - it would only be if ovulation was inhibited that less progesterone would be produced due to there being no egg sac and no corpus luteum (which produces the progesterone).
re Compounded HRT - it's not a question of it being frowned upon on this forum as such - it is not recommended by the medical profession for reasons well set-out elsewhere - in statements by the professional menopause societies, position statements, fact-sheets and blogs, so these are linked to from time to time by forum members when the subjuect arises ::).
Racjen you really should have ongoing gynae support! I am wondering if you would consider trying other forms of progesterone (I see you are considering the Mirena coil)? There is off licence Cyclogest and also Crinone gel although I don't know anyone using the latter.
Hurdity x
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Hurdity, thankyou as always for taking the time for such an in depth reply.
After a year of this misery I have no doubt that I should be getting proper ongoing gynae support, and I'm a pretty assertive articulate person but I'm struggling to work out how to make it happen. Changing my GP resulted in one 15 minute gynae appointment, which then failed to turn into the promised follow-up until I left messages on her secs answerfone for 3 consecutive days. No questions about my estrogen levels, previous history etc. Now I have an appointment to get a mirena fitted on 2nd Oct, but who knows whether that'll help or hinder. And then how long it'll take to get another appointment. With no NHS menopause clinics in the SW at all the situation is desperate; I'm now facing losing my job as I've been off for so long, and yet it seems the only way I can get the help I need is to somehow find the 100s of pounds I need to go private.
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Progesterone gives me bad headaches. So after considerable trial and error and help from a clever friend, I figured out a method to take less. I pierce the utrogestan capsule with a darning needle, squeeze out some, then weight it on digital jewellery scales (£20 from Amazon). I have worked out the weight / mg I need - which is 0.218 / 40mg a night (more = headaches, less = spotting). It is fiddly and took me a while to get the technique and dose right. I take it vaginally every night without a break. Hilariously I do all this measuring to 0.001 grams accuracy – then often some dribbles out during the night anyway! But it has levelled out some of my symptoms though.
I must emphasis my consultant knows I do this and I have had scans/ biopsies to check my womb lining – which it OK on this regime (I am on Estradot 50mg patches as well). Everyone if different though and this shouldn't be tried unless under a consultant's care.
I few years ago (under my consultant care) I went 4 months on Oestrogen only to see if my menopause symptoms improved. Surprisingly my anxiety got considerably worse – so I think I am someone who needs progesterone to help with anxiety -so I had to find a way to take a dose that I could tolerate.
I was going to try a jaydess coil (smaller, less progesterone) but unfortunately they aren't stocked at my hospital.
I have recently started a CBT course for my anxiety, panic attacks and agoraphobia. I can see now that my behaviours and thoughts have ‘encouraged' my anxiety, so I need to get it more under control. It is a difficult process but fingers crossed! Many times I have thought I would have to give up work but I am so fortunate to work for a great company who has been so supportive of my anxiety and we have modified my role accordingly plus I am allowed to work from home when I have bad days.
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it's rubbish that you've been left to your own devices, Racjen- a couple of years ago I had zoladex (so, chemical menopause) and felt unbelievably depressed!
i stopped the zoladex so my menopause has happened naturally- i do feel depressed, no doubt about it- but nothing like the immediate chemical menopause that, effectively, you've had.
Like you i tried utrogestan and found it difficult but i didnt try it vaginally or on a daiy basis.
and, Dangermouse- if you happen to be reading this- I'm v interested in your prog theories and the possibility of using prog cream only- never thought i'd say that!- but given that i go ballistic on oestrogen i'm willing to try anything!!
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Hurdity, thankyou as always for taking the time for such an in depth reply.
After a year of this misery I have no doubt that I should be getting proper ongoing gynae support, and I'm a pretty assertive articulate person but I'm struggling to work out how to make it happen. Changing my GP resulted in one 15 minute gynae appointment, which then failed to turn into the promised follow-up until I left messages on her secs answerfone for 3 consecutive days. No questions about my estrogen levels, previous history etc. Now I have an appointment to get a mirena fitted on 2nd Oct, but who knows whether that'll help or hinder. And then how long it'll take to get another appointment. With no NHS menopause clinics in the SW at all the situation is desperate; I'm now facing losing my job as I've been off for so long, and yet it seems the only way I can get the help I need is to somehow find the 100s of pounds I need to go private.
That is worrying about your job - and I presume not in public sector and that you are currently on some sort of sick pay scheme? Are you able to do a phased return or are you not up to that yet? You really should not be put in this position - maybe post elsewhere about the job situation because I know there are knowledgeable women on here who know more about rights etc and have given great advice to other women who have had to take time off due to severe menopausal symptoms and associated conditions?
I agree about the SW and you really should not have to pay for this!!! Maybe the Mirena will just do the trick for you? I do hope so.
Hurdity x
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Progesterone gives me bad headaches. So after considerable trial and error and help from a clever friend, I figured out a method to take less. I pierce the utrogestan capsule with a darning needle, squeeze out some, then weight it on digital jewellery scales (£20 from Amazon). I have worked out the weight / mg I need - which is 0.218 / 40mg a night (more = headaches, less = spotting). It is fiddly and took me a while to get the technique and dose right. I take it vaginally every night without a break. Hilariously I do all this measuring to 0.001 grams accuracy – then often some dribbles out during the night anyway! But it has levelled out some of my symptoms though.
I must emphasis my consultant knows I do this and I have had scans/ biopsies to check my womb lining – which it OK on this regime (I am on Estradot 50mg patches as well). Everyone if different though and this shouldn't be tried unless under a consultant's care.
I few years ago (under my consultant care) I went 4 months on Oestrogen only to see if my menopause symptoms improved. Surprisingly my anxiety got considerably worse – so I think I am someone who needs progesterone to help with anxiety -so I had to find a way to take a dose that I could tolerate.
I was going to try a jaydess coil (smaller, less progesterone) but unfortunately they aren't stocked at my hospital.
I have recently started a CBT course for my anxiety, panic attacks and agoraphobia. I can see now that my behaviours and thoughts have ‘encouraged' my anxiety, so I need to get it more under control. It is a difficult process but fingers crossed! Many times I have thought I would have to give up work but I am so fortunate to work for a great company who has been so supportive of my anxiety and we have modified my role accordingly plus I am allowed to work from home when I have bad days.
That's interesting Fosse - I think someone else posted about this or maybe it was on another forum? As Stellajane says there should be a 50 mg dose! As you are on a medium dose of oestrogen and taking utrogestan vaginally, then half the recommended oral dose should on average be sufficient to protect the womb lining provided no issues like fibroids. The alternate days dosage of 100mg was discussed earlier and the preliminary research studies showing it can be effective for those on low/medium oestrogen doses but presumably this provides too much of a hit if you are intolerant?
Hurdity x
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Hi Hurdity,
I tried alternate nights of 100 mg vaginally for a month hoping my body would adjust but unfortunately the headaches never lessened. My consultant says there isn't enough demand for 50 mg to give the manufacturer a business case to produce it >:(
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Hurdity, I work for Devon Libraries, which has recently changed from council ownership to a charitable trust in order to stay financially viable. I've already had 8 months off last year for the cancer treatment itself, now nearing the end of another 10 months after which I'll be on ESA alone. I have my second Formal absence Review Meeting on Tues and they are trying very hard to be helpful and sympathetic, but right now a phased return isn't really going to help, given that I'm being held together by ever-increasing doses of diazepam and never know how I'm going to be feeling from one day to the next ( for instance, I've spent the last 3 days pretty much crying solidly due to Utrogestan withdrawal). I'll get advice from my union, but in the end if you can't work you can't work can you - they're not going to keep on waiting for ever :(
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Hurdity - I just wanted to say that your comment about us being tired all the time when pregnant "but we have high oestrogen which enables us to cope" gave me a lightbulb moment! The fact it gave me a lightbulb moment about my pregnancies (I obviously didn't have enough oestrogen to cope, wow now it all makes sense - totally another story!) that doesn't help racjen, but I needed to tell you all - this forum is brill - I get answers to questions that have been bothering me for years.
I am so sorry to hear about your job racjen - I really hope the union can help. Surely it is an ongoing side effect of the treatment for the cancer really. I have to say whether it is council or charitable trust, the charitable trust are still employers and they must abide by the same rules as all employers in the event of sickness otherwise you would have a case for unfair dismissal. You really shouldn't have to be in a position of so much worry. Regarding work - I asked some questions of an online solicitor once regarding unfair dismissal - cost £25 - I got lengthy answers, could ask quite few questions and found it very helpful - maybe if the union don't step up then that could be an option. If any pharma read this forum they would know there is a market for 50mg Utrogeston duh.
I totally agree about not being able to work with all those symptoms. I've been there with a few of them all in one go for quite lengthy period (about 10 years more off than on!) and you just don't know what you are going to feel like until you open your eyes! I went self-employed because of it 26 years ago because if your bad, you just stay at home and fudge it - that's if you can do anything at all but there have been many duvet days I can tell you. It doesn't make for a successful business but it kept a roof over our heads!
As for access to treatment - menopause access is woeful. My heart goes out to you :-*- sometimes the universe is really unkind to those who have been through enough.
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Hi Hurdity,
I tried alternate nights of 100 mg vaginally for a month hoping my body would adjust but unfortunately the headaches never lessened. My consultant says there isn't enough demand for 50 mg to give the manufacturer a business case to produce it >:(
I wonder how they know there isn't the demand! They haven't asked us. It would be interesting to see what would happen to demand if it were actually available at a 50 dose. I'd be using it nightly then for sure.
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it's rubbish that you've been left to your own devices, Racjen- a couple of years ago I had zoladex (so, chemical menopause) and felt unbelievably depressed!
i stopped the zoladex so my menopause has happened naturally- i do feel depressed, no doubt about it- but nothing like the immediate chemical menopause that, effectively, you've had.
Like you i tried utrogestan and found it difficult but i didnt try it vaginally or on a daiy basis.
and, Dangermouse- if you happen to be reading this- I'm v interested in your prog theories and the possibility of using prog cream only- never thought i'd say that!- but given that i go ballistic on oestrogen i'm willing to try anything!!
Hey, just give it a go and see if it makes you feel better. Ona’s Natural is a good brand and I hear that women take it both peri and post menopause with good results. I personally do have high oestrogen and oestrogen makes me feel awful (particularly my own!) so not sure if women in post meno do well as oestrogen is still surging about or if it helps when low as well.
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Don't think this would work for me, as I think i can safely say the only time I felt things were really improving was when I was on oestrogen alone, in order to get my level up from practically zero to high hundreds. Introducing progesterone was when it all went pear-shaped.
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thanks for the heads-up, dangermouse- i will prob try that!
must say, racjen, one thing ive learned from these forums is that we're often so wildly different- doesn't really make sense but there it is! does sound as though oestrogen is your "thing" from what you say- i hope you find a prog that you can tolerate x