Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: racjen on September 02, 2018, 06:01:02 PM
-
Has anyone on here had success with CBT, for what's clearly hormonal anxiety? I know CBT can be very effective for anxiety which has its roots in emotional and/or cognitive factors, but I'm struggling to see how it can help with a physical problem. It's being offered to me for free so I'm perfectly willing to give it a go, but I just don't see how changing my thought patterns is going to affect what my hormones are inflicting on my mind....
-
Hello racjen.
I am considering trying this on the basis that I may as well explore a treatment I haven't tried yet because clearly the ones I have tried have all come up short! I think CBT gets mixed reviews but it only has to help one person, ie you , so worth a try possibly. If I go ahead with it I will update the forum for the benefit of other ladies.
Wishing you well and please let us know your decision
K.
-
Racjen and Kathleen, it has to be worth a go! I'm still on the waiting list for trauma therapy - the wait is particularly long for this as the course of treatment can be for 12 to 18 months of weekly sessions. I still see my psychiatrist fortnightly.
He and I have had many, many chats about what can and can't help the nervous system to recover from both physical and psychological trauma. Pretty much anything that can help bring the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system back into balance is going to help to re-balance stress hormones.
The menopause causes huge shifts in the HPA axis, as does stress and significant trauma. As the two share common ground, it makes sense that tackling the situation holistically (in the truest sense) could be most helpful.
I have certainly see online CBT for menopause to help symptoms - it's free, so let me see if I can find a link.....xxxx
-
Ah! Here we go - I actually saw this from the patient arm of The British Menopause Society's website - it's definitely worth a good read:
https://www.womens-health-concern.org/help-and-advice/factsheets/cognitive-behaviour-therapy-cbt-menopausal-symptoms/
ETA: Upon reading it further, I've actually found some reassuring words about my panicky hot flushes and why they are so bad after surgical menopause. Bonus!😊
xxxx
-
Hmmm, kind of illustrates what I mean though - it maintains that anxiety isn't in itself a physical menopausal symptom, but that menopause happens at a time when there's a lot of other stress too, so identifying and challenging anxious thoughts can help. My anxiety isn't triggered by anxious thoughts - it's a physical feeling and in fact it's the other way round - when I have the bad physical feeling any thought, even the most benign one, can make me feel anxious. I'll still try it if it's offered, as you say if it's free it's worth a try, but I just can't see how it fits with the hormonal profile of this type of anxiety, and I don't want to get into a situation where I'm battling with a health professional who's determined it's all in my head. I've had EMDR for post-traumatic stress and it was very helpful for the distress caused by various life events, but it didn't make the slightest difference to the anxiety, and I had a hard time convincing the therapist that that was because it's a physical thing - felt like he just didn't really believe me.
-
Hi all
I find reflexology is fab for relieving stress. I know it's a bit pricey but after 6 weekly appointments switch to every 2 weeks.
I know it sounds a cliche but it is sooo important to excercise. I'm not talking about a full 5 mile run but even to just get out in the air and do something different helps to calm anxiety.
I lost my dog during the summer and was in an awful state. I am not married or have any children. The reality of my early menopause hit me like a ton of bricks.
What got me through it was walking/running the park run and planning for new beginnings.
Hope this helps xxx
-
I'm a CBT therapist and it won't deal with pure physical anxiety, only thought-driven.
I've been reading today about the Alpha-Stim device which I may get for my practice. It's cranial electromagnetic stimulation for anxiety, depression, pain etc, a step up from TENS. It does seem very effective according to all the research I've done today in promoting alpha waves and I know the NHS are trialing it for anxiety treatment.
It can also be combined with EMDR for trauma therapy.
-
I paid privately for hypnotic cbt- it definitely didn't cure me but maybe helped a tad, but not enough to get me being to where I wanted to be in myself x
-
Racjen, I wanted to show you this thread from Hystersisters:
https://www.hystersisters.com/vb2/showthread.php't=788765
THIS is the type of anxiety you and I experience, isn't it? See - someone else gets it! We're NOT crazy!!
I hope this helps to validate what you're feeling. I know it did me! Now - how do we sort out this mess?? xxxx
-
racjen - many years ago I was in a session and the therapist insisted that I *HAD* to have a thought B4 anxiety struck. Well nope actually and I walked out. You R the first person that gets it! :thankyou:
As an update which may help someone, my panic attacks are triggered by physical feelings, usually nausea when my body is hungry. So I have to eat B4 my body needs energy. Which when I feel well I can easily forget to do, like last night: I knew I was hungry but didn't bother searching the cupboard, this morning I felt awful. Now had I taken a handful of dried fruits and nuts to bed to nibble .......... ::)
My emergency bag holds: bananas, dried fruits and nuts, a bottle of 'coke', Rich T biscuits, ginger biscuits, and I have buns in the pantry when at home.
CBT didn't work for me. My anxiety began within moments of being born as I was intubated. So having popped out and then suffering strange hands around my face ........ I became anorexic at age 3 with panic attacks, diagnosed at 5. The Dr told Mum that I would 'grow out of it'. Still waiting!
GR - sorry about the loss of your dog, was it that she died rather than disappeared :-\. :hug:
Sorting out the mess is difficult. Whilst I remain in my comfort zone with a regular routine I am usually OK. However, we have chosen to travel to Leamington to see the pro-cyclists run into the end of the Stage, already my guts are churning ...... :'(. We know where to park. There are good eateries. We know where the loos are ..........
Relaxation therapy has, in the past, helped but it was remembering to practice ::) and usually when I sat down to listen to the tapes a :catscratch: would join me and we would sleep. Music has always helped, I listen when I take an emergency pill and wait. Gentle walking if I can get away from people has been useful.
-
Tempest, right now I'm really scared that it's going to get the better of me before we find any solution and I'll take an overdose just to get away from it. Trouble is, months and months of this have dragged me down into major depression as well; feel like my life isn't worth living anymore, which is awful considering I went thru all that treatment to survive cancer, and I have two daughters who depend on me, but this is living hell.
I have an appointment to see a consultant gynaecologist tomorrow, referred at last by my GP, but I know nothing about her, it's not a specialist menopause clinic and I'm terrified she won't get it either and just try and fob me off with ADs and CBT. If that happens it really could push me over the edge. I'm sitting here sobbing as I write this cos I just want my life back, but it's not happening and everything is falling apart.
-
Racjen, I hear you! It's been 3 and a half years for me now, some of it ok but lately really not (but then i'm not on any HRT).
Please, please give this appointment a fair go. I have a similar couple of appointments coming up in the next 2 weeks. We can't give up - and I SERIOUSLY want to tell you that although the surgical menopause can be the most hideously brutal thing that can ever be inflicted on a woman, there is a way through. I still very, very much believe that.
You're not mad, you're not crazy. You do need a thorough review of your HRT to see what can be changed. For instance, an estrogen dose that is too high can cause awful feelings of panic - I remember Diane Danzbrink telling me that even a 75mcg patch made her feel very anxious until Dr Panay added 100mcg Utro. every other evening to her regime. It's finding balance that is key - balance that YOU feel good with - it can take time but please don't think this is forever even though it has seemed like an eternity already. I know your pain - I've lived it and continue to live it, partly because I became very stubborn and mistrusting and wanted to believe that this would all just go away by itself. I was very, very foolish.
Please do feel free to PM me any time - I probably know every feeling you're experiencing. I hope we can can get through this, one step at a time, hopefully together if you'd like.
Much love. xxxx
-
Hi Racjen and I am sorry you are feeling so unwell. I tried CBT as it was offered by my GP but despite quite a few visits it did nothing to help. I have also tried hypnotherapy, EFT, weekly reiki sessions, Swedish massage, herbal supplements, vitamin supplements - you name it I have tried it. In my case, I am better now because of two things - age (it has been about 12 years now since it started) and some prescriptions meds. When I say better, I don't mean that I am better, better, but am at the point where I can manage the day to day stuff fairly easily. I will never go off abroad again on my own...…….or go off for a days shopping in a crowded city. I still get anxious occasionally but usually it is about particular things so I would call that 'normal' anxiety. Before, I was just 'anxious', to the point I could no longer function.
I do so hope you can find something to help. It is a long lonely road and no-one ever understands exactly how you feel and it is so difficult to describe to someone who doesn't know you. I do remember one of the health professionals shutting me down when I said I thought it was related to menopause. I was told that was totally wrong, despite not having suffered from it until I hit my early fifties.
Good luck,
Bramble
-
Dear Bramble,
I'm so sorry that you had that experience with a 'healthcare professional' (I use the phrase loosely)!
I am so, so angry that previously perfectly capable women who suddenly present with these symptoms in midlife are virtually accused of inflicting these symptoms upon themselves. We are still very much classed as 'the mad woman in the attic' - nothing has changed!
If anything, I hope this can encourage us to fight harder and be stronger so that we can rise above this so that our children's and grandchildren's generation don't have to suffer such appalling treatment. I have been told so many times myself that I should be able to lift myself out of this, that I have almost become brainwashed and it's not until I read other women's experiences that I realise that I am NOT doing this to myself! The last few days have really opened my eyes a lot with the posts I've read on here.
I am so glad Bramble that you are feeling more confortable now - and understand that we will all probably still feel the ripples of our experiences for the rest of our lives. Take care. xxxx
-
Er, sorry to be a downer, but no.
I have had CBT , probably about 2 years worth over the years. They always focus on getting you to focus and analyse specific things, which is fine, BUT me oh no.
I have had anxiety since the day i ws born lol, but add hormones into the mix and a different beast.
I coudl never articulate my specific worries, mine were all just jumbled up, and racing like i'd taken anphetamines!. My spaghetti head i call it on account of never being able to untangle it and grabbing a specific worry.
It was medication for me every time, but i know people who have had great success
Try it it can do no harm
-
Hello, Racjen. I just wanted to wish you the very best of luck with your appointment today - i'll be thinking of you! xxxx
-
Thankyou T, i feel really touched that you thought of me. Horrible morning, anxiety even worse because of the appointment, but the gynaecologist was lovely, very sympathetic. I always go into that kind of appointment thinking I'm going to have to battle to be believed and then I'm so relieved when there's no argument. Only 15 mins though, and given that the NHS is so crap with record sharing you have to start from scratch, so we didn't get very far. Having said that, she said that the thing the body struggles with most in menopause is transition (and obviously with sudden menopause that's going to be much worse), so the goal is always to try and achieve as stable a state as possible even if you're having to resort to guesswork to get there. So she feels we should eliminate the ups and downs of progesterone by trying a Mirena first and see how that goes. I've got to the point where I don't really think anything will work so I might as well try that as anything else. She's going to make me an appointment to do it at the hospital, so hopefully it won't be like some of the nightmare scenarios I've read on here (god I've become such a pessimist :'( ) xxx
-
I am having EFT therapy for anxiety. It does work if you keep doing it. Google it and look on YouTube.
-
Hello ladies.
racjen - Thank you for your update. I'm certainly with you on the pessimism but who knows the mirena might just be the solution you've been searching for.
Your gynae's point about stability is interesting as I've often wondered if those of us who are forced to try different regimes because of poor response actually end up prolonging the roll coaster ride. Perhaps we are left suffering a perpetual peri meno and never achieve the hormonal stability that we really need. Having said that, if life without HRT is unbearable then we simply have to give it a try.
I hope you feel better soon racjen, you've travelled a difficult road and deserve to find peace.
Wishing you well.
K.
-
I found mindfulness helped some. I learned during the sessions about ruminating and how disruptive it can be. I realised I was doing it and decided to start having a little word with myself when I am ruminating and the drama is on repeat in my head. I just tell myself it's not worth it and to let it go a few times. I remind myself there is nothing I can do to change it and I have been here before and nothing bad happened. Words to that effect. It's simple but it works for me 70% of the time. There are other times when the hormones just take over and there is no stopping that record playing over and over in my head creating mayhem.
Try it. :)
-
Angel, is that EFT as in Emotional Freedom Technique, or Emotionally Focussed therapy? Google it and you get both, and there's a big difference. Having said that I have to say that, personally, I think if your anxiety is responding to either of these it's not the really specific kind of hormonal anxiety I'm referring to here (just my opinion, please don't anybody jump on me for it, I'm a bit too fragile right now). I've had years of psychodynamic therapy of various types, plus more recently EMDR for post-traumatic stress, and although all have been helpful for other areas of my emotional life none have made even the tiniest dent in this anxiety. It's physical. And Tracey, yes I practice mindfulness every day, it helps me get through the day but again it doesn't make a dent in the anxiety because it's physical, it's not based on thoughts, ruminations, worries. I'm not talking about a record playing over and over in my head, I'm talking about a physical feeling of fear and dread. Sorry to keep going on about this, but I feel I'm fighting a constant battle out there to get health professionals to understand this - I can do without it on here too.
-
I don't think of bad things , I just get this feeling of dread,
fear, of what? I don't know,! Is that the anxiety your talking about?
I'm even starting to get chest pain with it, and even though I get the pain,
I'm not thinking that this is it, this is a heart attack, but as soon as I get the pain a feeling
of dread comes immediately, a split second, after.
I don't know if it's hormonal, or I'm going flipping crazy, but I know it's real.
I haven't had any therapy of any kind, and to be honest, all your talk of this therapy and that therapy is over my head, all I know is that, I'm not thinking of bad things and then the anxiety comes, it just comes out of the blue, in any circumstance.
-
CBT and talking therapies will not be able to lower physical anxiety, it’s like trying to talk yourself out of a broken arm. It can stop panic that is triggered by the physical anxiety but only physical therapies can deal with physical anxiety.
Some options are curing the source (e.g. hormonal imbalance), the acupressure treatments we’ve been discussing (e.g. Sea Bands, reflexology), alpha brainwave stimulation therapies (Alpha-Stim, hypnosis to manipulate CNS), beta blockers, anti-anxiety meds, bio-feedback, bodywork, osteo/chiro/acupuncture.
It’s important to realise that hormones are incredibly powerful forces within our bodies which are also affected by our circadian rhythms (hence the 5am anxiety) where the moon pushes and pulls on the water in our bodies like the tide.
The anxious sensations are not damaging to the body as they are usually within the same range of heart rate and/or adrenal surges that you’d experience whilst exercising, they just feel frightening as they don’t align with your exertion or thought processes. They won’t hurt you though and they will eventually calm down.
-
Angel, is that EFT as in Emotional Freedom Technique, or Emotionally Focussed therapy? Google it and you get both, and there's a big difference. Having said that I have to say that, personally, I think if your anxiety is responding to either of these it's not the really specific kind of hormonal anxiety I'm referring to here (just my opinion, please don't anybody jump on me for it, I'm a bit too fragile right now). I've had years of psychodynamic therapy of various types, plus more recently EMDR for post-traumatic stress, and although all have been helpful for other areas of my emotional life none have made even the tiniest dent in this anxiety. It's physical. And Tracey, yes I practice mindfulness every day, it helps me get through the day but again it doesn't make a dent in the anxiety because it's physical, it's not based on thoughts, ruminations, worries. I'm not talking about a record playing over and over in my head, I'm talking about a physical feeling of fear and dread. Sorry to keep going on about this, but I feel I'm fighting a constant battle out there to get health professionals to understand this - I can do without it on here too.
Emotional Freedom - tapping. Plus hypnotherapy. My anxiety seems to stem back to when I had anaphylactic shock I was 26, now 53. My therapist uses the word "trapped" on all my fears and anxiety which is true. I was ok for years then peri menopause was horrendous and now at post menopause it's reared its ugly head again. Was ok in the between bit. Xx
-
Hello again ladies.
I completely agree with that hormonal anxiety comes from a different source and I've found that the sane thing that scares me when the anxiety is high doesn't bother me when I'm in a calm state and all the horrible sensations have gone. In other words I can be I can feel terrible or fine about exactly the same situation all depending on what my hormones are doing.
Dangermouse - can you clarify that CBT cannot prevent the anxiety arising but can help us deal with those sensations so that they don't escalate into panic. Is that what you meant in your last post?
Take care ladies.
K.
-
I truly believe that this - and only this - explains it all for me. I suggest reading the whole website:
https://withdrawal.theinnercompass.org/coping/withdrawal-induced-adrenaline-surges-quick-tips
In the end, time and lots of self care are the only things (I believe) that will make things better.
Menopause is a withdrawal syndrome - simple. Surgical menopause is brutal cold turkey withdrawal - obvious. The symptoms listed are exactly what we are going through, including the 'neuro emotions' of fear that no amount of CBT etc is going to magically fix. HRT can ease withdrawal - it's the 'methadone' of natural estrogen withdrawal (sorry if that sounds shocking - but it makes perfect sense to me)! xxxx
-
Racjen, I know exactly what you mean. The anxiety is purely physical and the feeling is quite unbearable, unlike normal anxiety. I would rather have pain than this feeling. I wanted to send you a PM to talk further but I couldn't. So let me just say that if you ever want a sympathetic ear or some help in anything please PM me. I really would like to help you somehow.
-
Thank you all - yes aspie, I've also had that feeling that I'd rather be in physical pain than this awful anxiety, it's impossible to describe why it's so unbearable but it really is. I'm so fed up with trying to explain it and getting that blank look - you either get it instantly or you don't. Thank god for this forum - without I think I really would be believing I was cracking up (as I did when I had the perimenopausal bout of this, it was labelled by professionals as 'a nervous breakdown', no connection with the menopause whatsoever apparently. I know better now...) x
-
Yes, CBT is about changing how you think, so it will (if done well) make you automatically pick up the habit of rationalising so that panic never even comes into your awareness. Unless of course there is something real to react to like a car coming from nowhere about to hit you! This is what we have these emotions for to protect ourselves when in an emergency true fight or flight situation.
It is sometimes difficult to separate at what point your anxiety might change from physical to emotional as your awareness becomes clouded by the over stimulation. However, I for one will rationalise mine immediately so it never overwhelms me emotionally. When I didn’t know where mine was coming from that also caused emotional disturbance and fear that I’d pass out when on own but now I know I only have the sensation to ride out.
A simplistic example of how CBT would help with the panic that may ensue is through being taught how to believe the rational truth that ‘everything will be ok’ rather than the exaggerated lie that ‘something terrible will happen’.
The problem when you mention anxiety to a doctor is that they always perceive this to be the emotional type which then creates the frustrating mis-labelling and incorrect treatment and, in some cases a very condescending attitude, as many with emotional anxiety also have to sadly put up with.
Hope that helps!
-
Hello again ladies.
I've been researching therapists in my area and ideally I would like to see someone who can offer CBT but also other therapies and I've found a man and woman, both middle aged. I think I prefer the woman because she is more likely to have some experience of the menopause and to understand it's illogical and irrational effects on us and our emotions, even if she didn't have a difficult time herself she mentions the menopause in her advertisement so she is clearly aware of the subject. Also I think only another female really understands how overwhelming all our hormonal changes can be, everything from period cramps to labour pains, they tend to be hard to deny when they are happening and can seriously disrupt our lives!
racjen- I agree with you, we are struggling to adapt to a system that is distinct from anything we have experienced before, it's a different system or as Louise Newson puts it, a separate aetiology and that essential fact needs to be acknowledged and understood by the people we go to for help.
Wishing you well ladies.
K.
-
Me again ladies.
Dangermouse - thank you for the explanation about how CBT can be helpful. Interesting stuff, I might have to give it a whirl!
Take care.
K.
-
DM, Dr. Claire Weeke's refers to this as 'the first fear and the second fear'. It's how we react to those physical sensations that creates a more powerful anxiety 'loop'.
I am sticking with the withdrawal model as this is the 'trigger' during menopause - and amplifies everything else. The website I quoted really is excellent and it doesn't matter WHAT you are withdrawing from, the central nervous system is disrupted just the same. It's how we support and nurture ourselves whilst our bodies and minds adapt that counts.
We know HRT doesnt stop the menopause - it's still taking place in the background and if we stop it there may be a return of symptoms, as well as losing the various possible benefits of add back estrogen and/or testosterone. This is why finding a perfect fit, all of the time with HRT is damn nigh impossible unless you are very, very lucky. Those with the severest menopause symptoms seem to be the ones for which this balancing act is the hardest, sadly.😥
Personally, right now having taken stock and having a long chat with the Hubby last night I am working on resting my CNS so that I can take stock as to what my next move may or may not be once I have seen my Gynae and Menopause Clinic. I need to be in the best possible position to make a measured decision.
I'm avoiding all stimulants, stressful and stimulating situations as much as possible and using the supportive care tips from the website I linked to. It may seem piecemeal, but it's the best I have right now instead of chopping/changing or adding more things into the mix and potentially creating more chaos within my body and mind. My psychiatrist likes to call this a 'wash out period', and I think that's pretty apt.
Having said that, i'm not avoiding 'life' though and had quite a pleasant afternoon out with Hubby today. Yes - I had some scarey adrenal surges but there is nothing I can do to stop them by fighting or worrying about them, so for now i'm just letting them 'be'. I guess this is what mindfulness is. I really can't let this thing take any more away from me than it already has. xxxx