Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Kathleen on August 03, 2018, 04:17:13 PM
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Hello ladies.
I wonder if any of you have any experiences of using anti anxiety meds during your menopause?
I understand that women who can't or don't want to take HRT have used them to help with panic attacks and I wondered how helpful they were. My GP prescribed Diazepam for me ages ago but I've never had the courage to use it as I was hoping my HRT would deal with my anxiety.
Any opinions gratefully received and I'm sure many other visitors to the forum would be interested as well.
Take care all.
K.
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Yep.
For years prior to menopause. I have had anxiety since age 3. Struggled++ [long story short]. I had Valium 10mg in the morning for 3 days prior to getting wed ::) in the 1970s.
When in the 1990s I was unable to cope my GP gave me 5mg Valium on an as-necessary basis. I took a tablet the evening B4 any Events that I was unable to get out of i.e. visiting family :-\. OK so I felt a bit hung over but at least I didn't get panic attacks. I knew that I could take 5mg x 3 times a day but never required that much.
After many years it made me feel woozy which rather defeated the object ::). In 200? my GP prescribed 80mg Propranolol, a Beta-blocka. Helps stop anxiety surges. After 3 weeks it was dropped to 40mg at night. When (about 5 years ago) I began to have background morning headaches I dropped it to 20mg night and at breakfast. Now I take 20mg at night. I also have an emergency anti-anxiety tablet [name escapes me begins with a 'L' ::)] to take as soon as I go into panic mode. I used to wait to see whether the feelings would pass but they rarely do so now I swallow it immediately.
I know that any of the above works for me so I have no fear of getting reliant on them. Whatever: without them I wouldn't be here.
I have also found helpful : relaxation therapy - I had tapes to listen too, teaching correct breathing. I would sit down with a :catscratch: on my lap and we would sleep :-X. The idea was to learn the therapy and practice ........... music has over the years been of use. As has walking, well away from people.
Knowing what triggers the anxiety might be of use. Some ladies find that HRT is enough to ease symptoms, others require that as well as AAs.
Remember: treat the symptoms if you can't tackle the causation. Also, nothing needs to be taken forever. For me, I have to take a low dose of anti-depressant for Life ...........
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CLKD, :thankyou:
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You are welcome. I've been to Hell and back :'(. But a loving husband and supportive GP who wouldn't give up ............
I have to not take on too much at once too!
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Hello again Kathleen,
I had the dreadful perimenopausal anxiety leaving me awake at 3-4 am to intrusive thoughts and feelings of impending doom. I didn't take any medication though. Mindfulness helped a lot. I had family issues going on as well, so being able to relieve my brain from the anxiety for half an hour every day helped me get a different perspective on my reaction to daily life challenges. The health/hormonal/family issues were feeding the anxiety, which in turn was feeding the issues, making them look worse than they were. Dreadful vicious cycle.
Hopefully you will find a way to get rid of it soon. Needs must, don't hesitate to take the medication, though. They help calm things down by breaking the vicious cycle.
Best wishes,
Conolly X
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Hi Kathleen
Sorry to hear about your ongoing anxiety and I know you have struggeld with trying to find the right HRT - but I wouldn't touch diazepam with a barge-pole unless you are severely debilitated without it. It is well-known to be addictive as reported on here and elsewhere.
If you can possibly help it then I would try to find a non-drug way of dealing with your anxiety - as Connolly and CLKD suggest - mindfulness, relaxation, breathing and all sorts of strategies and techniques and/or talking therapies.
I realise that some women need and use it, but I am sure it is too often prescribed (as are all ADs) by doctors - as a society we are drugged and over-medicated and encouraged to be so by the medical profession and the pharmaceutical industry!
I hope you manage to find a way through this! Why not start a thread (?in private lives) specifically about you and your anxiety - when do you get it, what triggers it, what does it stop you from doing, how does it make you feel etc and see if you can talk yourself through to a solution with a little help from members on here?
Hurdity x
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Hello ladies.
Thank you all for your comments on this subject.
I think we all worry about adding more medication but I suppose sometimes needs must. I also think that those of us who are post meno and using any sort of HRT are medicating anyway so it isn't much of a leap to add something else.
All good food for thought ladies!
Take care all.
K.
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I have used every experience that I mention since an early age. Diazepam and other as necessary drugs saved my Life. Without them I wouldn't be here. People who haven't taken such medications should stop giving out warnings - it is similar to those given out about perceived dangers of HRT >:(. Why another thread :-\ we obviously aren't on dial up these days.
I tried drug-free methods. They simply didn't work for me. Hence my reply - the question was 'any experience' after all. I have years of experience, not a Club I wanted to join :'( but the genetic as well as dysfunctional family element meant that I am pre-disposed. Apparently.
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I had an awful time coming off of the anti-anxiety med Alprazolam (Xanax). Although in my case, the doctor prescribed a super high dose to start with and my body became completely dependent on that drug within a month. I took it for 2 months and it then took me 8 months to taper off of it because the withdrawals were so bad. However, as I neared the end of the Xanax withdrawal, my doctor added a small dose of Diazepam to get me through the last of the Xanax withdrawals. The Diazepam lasted longer in my system than Xanax so it helped me get through the final steps of getting off Xanax. Then I slowly stopped using the Diazepam daily and got to the point where I finally didn't need it at all. However, all that changed last year when my anxiety returned as part of perimenopause, so now I have a supply of the Diazepam on hand at the house and take it if I ever start feeling really bad anxiety. I refuse to take it daily because I'm so scared of my body becoming dependent on a benzodiazepine again, but if I take it only a couple time a month when the anxiety is really bad, it seems to help. Everyone is different and their bodies react differently to these drugs. I know a lot of people that take these anxiety meds daily and are completely fine. Others like me, have a hard time because my body wants more and more of it and becomes completely dependent on it which in the end makes me sicker than not taking it. It's really an individual thing on how the body will react to it.
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My problem with stopping an anti-depressant was fear of not being able to stop. I was given a tapering dose and side-effects lasted about 2 days and once I realised that they didn't go on any longer I coped. I was given a different tapering dose every 4th day for 3 days ...... it took 9 weeks.
Clear as mud? It was physical: nausea, light headiness, fear that I would have to re-start them ........ so I laid on the settee for the 1st week until the realisation reassured me that after 2 days, I didn't feel any worse, nor did I need to re-start the drug. Each of us is different in how our bodies react.
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I have experience of taking lots of different anti-anxiety meds and my advice would be: avoid diazepam and any other benzodiazepenes like the plague (the one beginning with L that CKLD is talking about is Lorazepam, which is stronger and more addictive than diazepam). They are highly addictive drugs, yes they work to begin with but you quickly build up a tolerance and then they are hell to come off, withdrawal symptoms tend to include worse anxiety than the initial problem, depression, all sorts of physical symptoms (a doctor said to me the other day that they are worse to come off than heroin)....Sorry CKLD but whatever you say, you are unusual - most people don't manage to use benzos in such a controlled way over years, I suspect that because your anxiety is from a different source ie lifelong and not menopausal, your experience isn't really relevant here. I'm also a bit unusual in that I can't tolerate anti-depressants or beta-blockers, but if you really are experiencing unbearable anxiety (and i know the feeling, that's why I'm now struggling to come off diazepam after 9 months use) you'd be better off trying either of them or pregabalin, which is similar to ADs but is specifically anti-anxiety. If you hit it lucky and find one that works for you it could make all the difference, but don't expect miracles - for some of us they just don't work.
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Hi Kathleen,
When I was in my late 30s early 40s, I tried Sertraline, and another one, can't remember it's name,
And although it took the anxiety away, I so hated taking them.
Then one day I wasn't very well [i had a bad reaction to ‘garnier' body lotion) and I needed to be sick
so ran upstairs to the toilet, but wasn't sick, I passed out in the bathroom, zonked my head off the
raidiator and fell down at the side of the toilet, completely out for the count.
My son woke me shouting ‘mom, ‘mom', then when I came round , which was only a couple minutes
later, he was in the phone to the ambulance. By the time they got to me, I was sitting up right, still
felt unwell obviously, but ok.
They said my blood pressure had dropped and that's what made me pass out, they wanted to take
me in because I'd had a head injury (who put that bloody stupid raidiator there?) lol
But I said no, I was ok, which they protested about, but I got my way, lol
They said it was probably the sertraline that had done it, because AD can do that.
I didn't go to the doctor about it, I just started weaning myself off them , it scared me to death.
This is why I WONT go back on AD, they scare me .
And although my anxiety is still there occasionally, I now know it's hormonal, because when I've
got the dosage right of my hrt, it completely goes away....
Which incidentally, is playing up at the moment again,.......I'm working on that one......
That's my experience on ADs..........
Jd x
Also forgot to add, just after I was post meno, before I went onto hrt, my anxiety was through the roof
So doctor gave me ‘prozac', I was at my wits end, thought ok, I'd give it a go, after only a few days
on it, I started to feel ill in the middle of the night, like I was about to pass out , over and over again, all I could do was to lie down, I felt better then. So I stopped them, immediately.
It took about a week for that feeling to go, it came over me like a wave, my body just wanted to pass out, all the time, I stayed on a two seater settee for about a week, too scared to move, only going to the bathroom, as the week progressed it got less and less until I was back to normal.
I didn't go to the doctor, (I'm not keen....lol) I just knew it was those pills... hence why I won't touch them ever again.......
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Of course some people become addicted. But I and many others that I am in touch with World Wide, have had no problems. If a GP is on the ball and explains any dangers regarding medication and sees patients on a regular basis, most prescriptions can be managed. I have an addictive personality as well as being obsessive.
racjen - I find 2 of your comments offensive: please do not use 'you' when you mean yourself and particularly your statement:your experience isn't really relevant here: - nothing posted here by anyone is irrelevant.
It is up to reader to take what is suggested and see whether it applies to them or not.
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hi Kathleen, I have not only personally suffered with anxiety for 14 years but also worked in the mental health sector for 16 years. Diazepam if used correctly is so good just to try and break the cycle or even to get a few hours sleep, and can also help your mind to calm when it is particularly irrational so you can think straight. Yes it is highly addictive nut it is down to the individual to understand whether they can manage that or another, also a good GP would monitor very closely. I only use diazepam when I am absolutely bouncing off the walls.
citalopram was helpful to me in the past but after a time lost its efficacy and I found the side effects of coming off it horrible. Pregabalin is excellent for anxiety, however again it slowed my mind down and at times I found my word finding quite difficult. There are pros and cons to all theses medications, and unfortunately it is often trial and error. Medication most certainly has a place for anxiety, and sometimes it just provides that breathing space to then start other therapies, mindfulness etc. I have now Been of anti-anxiety medication for 3 years, and just keep a small amount of diazepam to hand for when I really need it. I have never been tempted to misuse it, all these medications served a purpose when I needed them most.
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Hello ladies.
Thank you all for your replies.
Yet again it seems that we have to suffer trial and error!
I've been doing a bit of research and I looked up the side effects of an AD called Efexor XL 150 mg ( Venlafaxine). A GP prescribed this for me a few months ago and I see that some possible side effects are nausea, nervousness and sweating ( including night sweats). It's a bit dismal that some people will have the exact same symptoms that they are trying to treat but as side effects, and how would you know which is which? This has made me wonder if anti anxiety meds would be a better bet if used sensibly.
Emmapurple - I'm pleased to learn that you no longer need regular meds, can I ask if you find alternatives like mindfulness effective?
Thanks again for your input ladies, very interesting and much appreciated.
Take care.
K.
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Hi Kathleen,
I've struggled with awful anxiety and deep depression since I became peri menopausal. I had lots of difficult side effects from antidepressants and they didn't work for me however for a friend of mine they have been just what she needed.
Pregabalin gave me dreadful side effects in the longer term and I found it the worst BY FAR to withdraw from. There are several lawsuits going on in America due to problems with Pregabalin and yet many people find it extremely effective especially for pain relief.
I have found diazepam to be the best medication to help me through the most difficult times while I sort out my hrt regime (several years now) and it really works well for me. Its prescribed to me in very small quantities so that I'm unable to become addicted to it and I only use it to help me get through very difficult situations. Never on a daily basis.
I suppose my point is that we're all so individual and as with all medication, hrt included, what works for one may not for another but if used in the way I was told to use it then I really think diazepam can be useful for some. Same as CKLD it's been a life saver for me.
As it's been a while since you were prescribed it I wonder if it might be useful to have a chat with your doctor to go through the best way to use them if you decide to and to talk through your fears. I sometimes have a telephone consultation for things like this.
Hope this makes sense as I've written it in a rush without my glasses on
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Hi Kathleen,
no I don't really practice anything, but I suppose working in mental health I more or less know what I should do, but don' t always practice what I preach!!! I think over the years I have just learned that it's good to talk when I am anxious, and occasionally know it will just get the better of me, and let my husband support me when I am feeling really bad, again more talking out loud to try and see things more rationally. Unfortunately my current difficulties with peri- meno has set me off again, but am hoping with the right HRT will get this under control. This site has helped hugely.
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Hi Kathleen
I've been prescribed both Diazepam and Effexor in the past.
Diazepam is a short term measure that will knock your anxiety on the head. What doseage have you been prescribed? It does calm you down and give you time to think but it can also make you very flat at the same time.
AD's are taken for a longer period and should sort out any anxiety and depression over a 3 to 6 month period.
Both of them have side effects. To be honest, I think i'd prefer to have a course of AD's over benzodiazepines but that's just my personal opinion. Effexor is recommended in menopause for the treatment of flushes. Also the starting dose for Effexor is 25/37.5 mg twice a day. The withdrawal for Effexor isn't easy but I managed it, so it is possible.
Hope this helps.
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Hello again ladies.
Very interesting comments and thank you all for taking the time to post.
MIS71MUM - I had been taking 75 mg split into two doses of 37.5mg per day but the GP I saw in March increased this to 150mg XL which means long release I think.
Emmapurple - Thank you for your insight. Have you found over the years that you have particular trigger that sets off your anxiety? The last time I felt similar to the way I feel now was when my children were very young and I had disturbed sleep. That being said, the meno brings delights all it's own!
Robin- Thank you for your post, it does make sense so no glasses required today!
I will try and see GP to discuss how to sensibly use Diazepam if needed plus I will ask about changing the dose of Effexor or even trying a different AD. When I was researching on the net some people said it was the Devil's work and for others it gave them their life back!
Wishing you all well ladies.
K.
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I'm sorry I don't have the time to read the whole thread (at work), I just wanted to add if you really have to use benzodiazepines, then please don't use them for more than 3 days in a row. If you still need to use them then please leave a 3 day gap.
Benzos ruined my life for 3 years and the hell coming off them was painful, just be very careful with them, it doesn't take long to get hooked on them.
I wish there was another way to sort your panic attacks xx.
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Hello Abba Fan.
Thank you for your post. I didn't know that about benzodiazepines so your comment is very helpful.
Take care and I hope you don't get into trouble with the boss, or perhaps you are the boss!
K.
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Hi Kathleen,
I'm on 225mg Effexor and 45mg mirtazapine also have diazepam for when I am not coping,sometimes I don't take a diazepam for weeks,then sometimes I can take 4 times in a week,as long as you only use it when you really really need it you will be fine. Last year I was climbing the walls with anxiety,i wanted to die as I couldn't take anymore,I didn't see any way out,but it will get better,you have to believe that,I think my estrogen level was through the floor,it's taking ages to get it up to what it needs to be,I'm on 6 pumps of gel at the moment and am having another blood test on Tuesday,to see how my levels are doing,I actually had a good laugh at work today for the first time in 3 years,I saw a glimmer of the old me,you have to keep trying different doses,I think they make you feel worse before they make you feel better. I think you need to do a sequential regime as I don't think continuous progesterone is helping your problems,also ask to try provera,it's not too bad.
Keep your chin up and fight for what you want and need,I had to fight all the way,but hopefully I'm getting there and you will to.
Take care
Lisa xx
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Sorry Kathleen - I hadn't realised that you already took Effexor already.
I used to 37.5mg twice a day, then I increased to 50mg but that was discontinued so I was switched to 75 mg XL and that was amazing for me and gave me my life back but I wasn't in peri then - just very anxious after giving up smoking!
Good luck
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Yes I was really bad when my children were young, I suffered with antenatal depression and anxiety with 2 out of my 3 pregnancies, again those damned hormones >:(. After my third pregnancy the anxiety decided to stay. My main trigger is stress really, and I know it's not very helpful but sometimes it just comes over me for no obvious reason, I become irrational and ruminate over things, like at the moment it's my symptoms of atrophy, I spend an unhealthy amount of time googling. But yes lack of sleep definitely exacerbates it. At least you know there are lots of us out there ;)
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CLKD, my point really is that I'm not sure the anxiety you suffer from is the same as menopausal anxiety - you yourself have said that you've had it since age 3 and that it's triggered by certain things, therefore you can head it off by taking diazepam when you know a stressful event is coming up. Purely hormonal anxiety isn't triggered by anything except hormones - the feelings of dread and impending doom are just there every morning, not brought on by anticipation of events or negative thoughts but just there and not responding to any kind of talking therapy. Mine was so bad after chemo that I very quickly ended up on 15mg of diazepam because nothing else gave me any relief and no-one recognised that it was hormonal. As patients we shouldn't have to rely on doing all our own research and being totally responsible for our drug taking in this kind of situation - I was in no state to manage this, but my GP allowed me to become dependent on this level of diazepam and now I'm having to suffer the consequences. I find it offensive that you continue to promote benzos as a reasonable treatment for hormonally based anxiety - they are not, NICE guidelines state that HRT should be the first line of treatment in a case where anxiety has clearly only started with the onset of menopause. Your situation is different and it's misleading and dangerous of you to continue to suggest otherwise and make out that you're the expert on hormonal anxiety.
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Racjen, I don't think that is really helpful for this thread, Kathleen I'm sure is able understand the warnings we have all given regarding diazepam, but also how helpful at times it has been. We are all just offering our experiences not telling Kathleen she must take diazepam. I am very sorry you became dependant and your GP was not supportive, however ultimately we must understand what we are taking and make that decision based on how well we understand ourselves, and also the support network we have. I hope that makes sense!!
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You have had a bad experience of benzodiazepines,but that doesn't mean we all will,I have suffered anxiety and depression for 27 years,I've also suffered hormonal anxiety and depression for the last 3 years, I've been on hrt for over a year and I am only just seeing a chink of light at the end of the tunnel,how do you suggest people cope while they are waiting for their doctors to pull their heads out of their arses,I take diazepam as and when I need it,but I am an intelligent woman and I know the dangers,everyone is big enough to make their own decisions,it makes me angry as I was suicidal for 8 months last year and maybe without a low dose diazepam i may have been tipped over the edge,it just common sense. And do you know what this site has been a godsend to me but I'm sick of all the bitching that is going on lately,it's time you put your big girl pants on and got on with it,we are supposed to be on here to help and support each other,we are grown women ffs
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Blimey, no need to get so offensive about it. I'll keep my opinions to myself from now on and you can see for yourselves what a nightmare benzos are - in my opinion they should be banned. And I too have been suicidal with this whole thing, doesn't change my opinion - would you have taken heroin when you were suicidal because it promised to make you feel better in the short term? I probably would've done if it'd been offered to me and I dread to think what situation I'd be in now.
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No I wouldn't have taken heroin,I have never touched an illegal drug in my life,and I'm not gonna start now,when I was ill my son got me some cannabis butter,as my kids were at the end of their tether,but I wouldn't take it,all I'm saying is just because you became dependent doesn't mean everyone else will,like I said it's common sense really,sorry you were offended,but we have to do what we have to do to survive this shit
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Hello ladies,
I'm sure you all are only trying to help by telling Kathleen your own experiences with medication. All experiences are subjective though, let alone opinions. If benzodiazepines were pure and simple evil they wouldn't be one of the most prescribed drugs in the world. That said... maybe it's better to stick to the general guidelines?
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/generalised-anxiety-disorder/treatment/ (https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/generalised-anxiety-disorder/treatment/)
The Royal College of Psychiatrists has this highlighted Benzodiazepines should generally not be prescribed to people over the age of 60
https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/healthadvice/treatmentsandwellbeing/benzodiazepines.aspx (https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/healthadvice/treatmentsandwellbeing/benzodiazepines.aspx)
I'm not sure you are over 60, K. ;D
Conolly X
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No because that's something that doesn't help anybody whereas Diazepam does help some people when used appropriately.
My situation is far worse than I write in my posts. I have been struggling a lot again recently and stopped posting due to some of the unpleasantness on here. It's such a shame as this forum has been what has kept me going through extremely difficult times.
Its too upsetting when I'm struggling. I won't be posting any more. Thank you those who have offered me words of wisdom and a helping hand. Also all you ladies who have given me a few laughs along the way and of course all the fabulous information.
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Hello Robin,
I hope it wasn't my post that has upset you. Don't stop posting because of this, all of us are struggling one way or another with many health and emotional issues. Posts are static, we write what we think/feel at that particular moment, they're not supposed to hurt anyone. No one can feel your pain, so all we can do is to support each other.
Conolly X
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thats the point I was making. All of us are struggling or have struggled in one way or another even if we don't feel able to be open about all of it. There have been several unpleasant posts recently and although none of them were aimed at me they made me feel very uncomfortable, worried about the people they've been aimed at and because I was struggling made me feel more hopeless. There are many of us struggling so I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds these sorts of things affect them negatively. I believe all our experiences are valid. Many of the medications we take would be dangerous if used in the wrong way. Pregabalin is one of those. I use diazepam very sensibly. It has saved my life. Emmapurple sums things up perfectly I think. I'm just not made of sturdy stuff anymore but I wish you all well
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Just a reminder that personal attacks on forum members is against the forum rules and will result in a suspension or ban. You can use the ignore/friends function in your profile to filter members you may not get on with.
Emma
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Conolly, something being popular doesn't automatically make it a good thing; it's generally acknowledged now that benzos are being over-prescribed and GPs are being advised to get their patients off them:
http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/clinical/clinical-specialties/prescribing/one-in-three-benzodiazepine-prescriptions-last-over-a-year-gps-warned/20034824.article
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The truth is that most of us will experience at least one episode of mental illness in our life times. So I can't understand resistance to medication for it when we happily medicate for physical illness. Also, just the same as physical illness some people need short term help and others long term. I myself have experienced two episodes. One was peri related and one due to family crisis. The second time I was given Diazepam as well as ADs. This was because I experienced a 3 day panic attack and thought I was literally dying.
However, I see diazepam (Valium) as an emergency med. As a regular med they can be dangerous and I have a family member who took years to come of them. So long as the patient is aware and the doctor regulates the prescriptions they are a useful and necessary tool.
For me I resist taking any medication for long periods so was only on ADs for six months at a time and only had one packet of diazepam. For others I can appreciate that this would not be possible. We all function and respond differently.
Hope you are feeling better Robin :hug:
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Kathleen, can I ask if you are still taking Venlafaxine? I think I remember you mentioning quite a good while ago that you were, or have you stopped? It is very useful for anxiety for many. xxxx
ETA: Ooops! Just spotted that you're already taking it, Kathleen! Sorry!
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Racjen, I am so sorry that your prescriber allowed you to become dependent on diazepam. The blame surely lies with them as they should have adhered to the prescribing guidelines.
Diazepam however should not be banned. It is a very useful drug - indeed, it is crucial in treating severe cluster seizures and can actually help to save lives. It has other uses other than just for short term anxiety management.
I am sad that nothing much seems to have changed on this forum since I went away and then returned. I must admit that it is not the place for me - and so I am bowing out again. I shall continue to liaise with and support my fellow surgical menopause sisters on other platforms, and wish all of you success in navigating your menopause either with or without HRT and hope that you have many happy, settled post menopausal years. Thank you to those of you who have shown me kindness.
All the best.
Love,
Tempest. xxxx
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:'( I'll miss you Tempest :foryou:
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Oh what a shame. Don't go as the forum needs a variety of views and experience, otherwise it will be too narrow and polarised.
We are none of us clinicians but can do our own research if views here don't match our own. We need different ideas to help us expand our own.
I hope you reconsider Tempest. :hug:
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It happens on many Forums >sigh<
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I'm sorry if I have upset you tempest,please come back the forum needs you.
Lisa xx
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Getting the thread back on track – how are you doing Kathleen? I think the difficulty with the discussion has been because although your thread title asks for experience with anti-anxiety meds, you seem to be actually asking for their use in menopause ie for hormonal anxiety. This is clearly an emotional issue but there are views from those with long-standing emotional or mental health problems, some who by their own admission have sadly felt suicidal, and those who have experienced menopausal depression and/or menopausal anxiety not to mention other forms of reproductive depression like PND and extreme PMS. It's no wonder there is such a diverse range of opinions and very strong views. It could be easy to get caught up into feeling that you fall into this category - and only you know whether you do, whether you can cope, are seriously depressed, and really could not function without medical intervention ( ie drug treatment) or could be a danger to yourself.
Racjen and Conolly have given some helpful links and have made valid points about hormonal/menopausal depression and anxiety being different and requiring different treatment. The NICE Guidelines are clear about this.
If not, then as per the link Conolly gave – if it is a menopausal/hormonal symptom then a drug solution should be a last resort. I hadn't realised you were already taking anti-depressants and I hope you don't mind my asking but was this after you started HRT or for life events and feelings in your life unconnected to menopause or hormones, or pre-dating HRT and menopause? If you were given these since taking HRT for hormonal anxiety – this is perhaps a pity (especially as it doesn't seem to have worked!) – only in that it makes it difficult to sort out the HRT treatment that works best for you – because as you said in your earlier posts – the ADs themselves have side effects so how can you work out what's what? The thing that worries me for your sake is that say it was the continuous progestogen in the Evorel conti making you feel like this – then you end up taking medication for the side effects from another type of medication – in this case a synthetic progestogen (norethisterone). Of course it might not be that but as I've said many time and have others – if you try HRT on a cycle with the same or a different progestogen you would be able to work out if these feelings were due to the HRT – either the progestogen, or too low a dose of oestrogen – or nothing to do with any of this!!
I have no particular axe to grind here as I don't take ADs but have experienced the negative effects of some progestogens. And know that I feel well on a cyclical regime. I wouldn't want to see you go further down the medical route if there were a simpler solution that didn't entail more drugs long term. Not to mention as the others have said (according to the link) – being over 60 these drugs are not advised anyway (notwithstanding some members who have been taking them intermittently for several/many years and are over this age!) and behavioural solutions favoured.
Those who have suffered any form of reproductive depression such as PND may also find that a strictly hormone replacement treatment (with oestrogen) actually is very effective, without other medical intervention – as per Studd's regime. There is much information on his website about this.
None of this is to minimise the benefit that some members have obtained through drug intervention but I can understand the words of caution expressed and why.
I do hope you will let us know what you decide and how you get on Kathleen, and hope you find a way to resolve this which is best for you short and long term.
Hurdity x
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Can anyone explain how anxiety differs from 'hormonal' anxiety. That is, anyone who has experienced both? I am fed up with supposition.
Dr Dalton found out that hormones certainly do change temperament throughout the monthly cycle. That is well documented and NAPS helped me a lot in the 1990s. Mainly with the suggestion of eating little and often even through the night. Still works 4 me, fortunately.
Because I was already on appropriate medication by the time I went into peri, fortunately I remained reasonably stable .
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I can relate to that. Having experienced it in both circumstances they both feel exactly the same.
If you break a leg how you broke it makes no difference to the treatment.
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Morning Kathleen
Due to a mouth health issue, my anxiety levels and panic attacks took me to the brink of a nervous breakdown. I am unable to take HRT and went back to Dr for help as all my usual mental and physical strategies were not working. I was prescribed anti-anxiety meds, which were told would help with night heats and sleep as well. Took one at bedtime, slept right the way through (night heats ALWAYS wake me up, as we know, that is their job!), felt like a zombie next morning and they made my original mouth problem worse. I have CFS/ME and my body has rejected every medication recently. However! It completely took away the feelings of panic, I stayed that way for a few days on the one tablet and it seemed to reset something. I decided not to take anymore because of the mouth issue, but the fact I have the packet sitting in my bedside table reassures me that if the anxiety becomes too bad, there is something there to help me. So far I have not touched them, but I did take them out with me last Saturday. We had a fairly long journey to take in the car and I become claustrophobic in traffic jams, especially in this heat. I didn't need them. Sometimes, just knowing there is a little something tucked away to help you is all you need to keep you going.
We are all so different and have to find whatever works best for us, but I hope everyone's different experiences gives you something to draw on and find a solution x
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You are quite right CLKD, all anxiety is anxiety in how it's experienced. However, with something that has an ongoing feed to it (as opposed to the broken leg scenario) then the cause becomes important as you need to know the cause in order to change it.
If it's down to unhealthy thought processes then they can be reprogrammed in therapy and removed completely.
If it's down to low serotonin then SSRI antidepressants can help.
If it's down to high blood pressure, or an underlying heart condition, then heart meds can help.
If it's down to volatile hormones then correcting hormonal imbalance can help.
Etcetera.
Sometimes it's a combination of 2 or 3 causes where, for example, underlying psychological anxiety can be amplified in perimenopause by the volatile hormones.
Unless you are completely aware of the cause then it can be down to trial and error and perhaps a combination of therapy and medications.
Something strong like Diazepam can act as anaesthesia to shut down stress hormones completely and will be experienced depending on tolerance. I was given a quarter tab of it and had a rebound bad reaction as it wore off an hour after I took it and the GP I was taken to said it was because benzodiazepines calm the mind (so more for neurosis) but I simply needed my adrenaline and tachycardia brought down as my thoughts were not triggering the anxiety (he could tell by how calmly I spoke) - to which he prescribed beta blockers as and when. I only ever took 4 or 5 over that first month as I discovered it was my hormones that were the root cause and the pill and then progesterone cream rebalanced me and took me out of the crisis state.
It can be very difficult to figure out, in the moment if it's a neurosis or physical, however, when it hits you completely out of the blue then that is a good sign it's not thought driven.
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:thankyou: Both. :foryou: Both.
Sadly my Doctors weren't concerned with why my depression took over in 1983. :'(. I really wanted to know if it was physical or due to genetics. [alcoholic grand-father, gambling gt grand-father, hyper active uncles and a depressed father; maternal granny with what was probably PNT and agerobophia!]
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I'm not sure it's true to say that all anxiety is anxiety in the way that it's experienced. My observations from talking to people of both genders with psychologically derived anxiety are that it tends to have recognisable triggers, often rooted in past experiences, and that this makes it possible to predict when it will be exascerbated and take measures to head it off. It probably is also more likely to manifest as panic attacks too. It will usually respond to talking therapies like CBT, EMDR, psychotherapy etc. Hormonal anxiety on the other hand has no trigger or focus to set it off, it simply comes on at a regular time (usually first thing in the morning) and drains away as the day goes on. No amount of talking therapy sorts it out because it's a physical problem which needs a physical solution ie hormonal treatment. I'm sure it's not uncommon to have a combination of the two, which obviously complicates things enormously, but I think it is important to acknowledge that there is a distinction in both cause and experience, because the treatment needed is different in each case.
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:thankyou: that makes sense. Though in menopause it does have a causation, i.e. hormone surges. Cortisone ? maybe part of the problem?
My anxiety is instant. Nothing in my head at all despite what a Psychologist tried to push onto me: "You must think of something B4 you being to panic". Well, no. Actually. It happens. In my gut then my thighs go weak followed by my calves and then I'm on the floor. Within seconds. Then curled into a ball, shaking. Then my head kicked in :-\
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I have suffered anxiety since childhood, but It didn't become problematic until my early 20's.
I was never keen on benzo's, knowing a few people who liked them a bit too much,
So i did propranolol for a while, but that didn't stop the anxious thoughts.
My gp at the time was very good. She suggested that as i had always been that way an ssri might be more useful, i also did relaxation therapy (excellent)
A lot of people don't rate the ssri's well, but for me they were amazing- literally changed my life and stopped completely the anxious thoughts. I have been taking them on and off for 25 years-addiction may come to mind- but i would say who cares , it is better than life crippling anxiety.
Benzo's may be okay for a crisis, but they really are not a long term option.
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SSRIs are in general non-addictive. Some may need to be withdrawn slowly as I did B4 I swapped over to another. It was the head zaps that puzzled me ::). The brain is an organ that needs support as any other.
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So what's the difference between something being addictive and needing to be withdrawn from slowly? Surely if you need to withdraw slowly to avoid nasty withdrawal symptoms that implies addiction? There may be a difference in terminology here but it's all the same in the end....
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I was on seroxat which is an ssri ,.for 12 years and I thought I would come off them slowly over 6 months, but it was far too quick and I went through hell. I should have gone back on them then come off them over a couple of years but I didn't realise. I think if a thing is addictive it loses its effect on the dose you are on so you have to increase it, like heroin, to keep getting a buzz. But non addictive substances can still cause withdrawal.
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I think there's a myth that if something is so-called 'non-addictive' you'll be able to come off it just like that, with no adverse effects. Yes, you're right that, strictly speaking, being addicted to something means you develop a tolerance to it and have to keep increasing the dose to get the same effect, but it's misleading to make out that drugs like SSRIs won't cause problems when you decide to come off them - many people get terrible withdrawal from ADs.
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There is a difference between addiction and dependancy.
Addiction generally means that emotionally you like the way a drug makes you feel and crave it when you don't take it.
Dependancy means your body becomes dependent on the effects of the drug and you get bad physical symptoms when you decide to stop taking it.
These two are often confused.
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Hello Kathleen,
How are you doing? You've been silent...
Conolly X