Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Tempest on July 08, 2018, 03:40:05 PM
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https://ayoti.in/blog/anxiety-in-women-causes-symptoms-diagnosis-and-treatment/
(The grammar in the article isn't great, but the accompanying illustrations are what make it priceless)!😊
I'm leaving this here and hoping that some of you will be curious enough to pop over via the link and take a look. The symptoms are scarily similar to what a lot of women report in menopause, no?
Menopause is stressful, and so is life in general these days. We are generally bombarded with pressures from family, work, modern life and influences via the internet and that can all add up.
I have found it useful to draw up a list to see exactly how much stress I am under, and I can tell you that it is a lot! So no wonder i'm getting the hot/cold flushes, jelly legs, racing heart and much more as listed in the link.....that I assumed were 'just menopause'. We, as a generation, are also more stressed about menopause itself - moreso than any other generation - as we are led to fear via media pressure getting older. We will all, of course, age - and as my former Consultant Professor Lumsden said to me - it is difficult to blame signs of normal ageing on estrogen depletion in what, after all, is a normal part of the ageing process.
I personally have a problem with the phrase 'estrogen deficiency' in relation to a natural menopause - i.e. not surgically induced prior to age of natural menopause or due to premature ovarian failure. One is not 'estrogen deficient' if this event - menopause - happens at the time biologically programmed according to your body's own ageing.
I know this might seem unpopular as the menopause transition is so tough and yes, I believe there is a role for HRT for some women whose natural transition is particularly tough and of course for women who have had surgery, chemo (if HRT is allowed) or POF.
I DO worry though that women may be feeling pressured to view their menopause as something that is abnormal and that must be delayed indefinitely at all costs, even if their experiments with HRT are not too successful or are not adressing the symptoms that they would hope.
I'm not deliberately trying to court controversy with this post, but these are my own thoughts as I have moved through this difficult time of my own surgically induced menopause at the age of 46. For information, my last conversation with Professor Lumsden's team (who I highly respect) confirmed to me that as I am now 49, my only need for HRT would be purely for symptomatic relief. I.E. - if I didn't or couldn't take HRT at this age - despite having no ovaries - I was not going to drop down dead because my heart would suddenly pack up, nor would my bones crumble nor would I turn into a wizzened wreck (or a man, as has been suggested on one memorable thread here)!
If I use stress management techniques (very important), gentle strength building exercise (Prof. Lumsden recommends pilates and is a fan herself), eat nutritiously and generally TAKE CARE OF MYSELF, all will work out in the fullness of TIME. And interestingly, Prof. Lumsden did say that if a woman is struggling particularly with more than just occasional mood swings, that either talking therapies or medication is appropriate to help prevent women into slipping into a major depression or a state of generalised anxiety that HRT may not be able to address.
So, thank you ladies for indulging me with this long post. It comes from the heart - and as always, i'm sending much love to all of you as I know how tough it can be, truly. xxxx
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Really interesting post. Will check out the link Tempest.
Thank you.
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If I am totally honest I have always had a degree of anxiety and although the meno definitely made it worse, I survived. Now I am much better and am probably the best I have ever been. Six years post meno and enjoying life, dispite the ups and downs. :)
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That is so very positive to hear, Shadyglade! I have had to adopt the mantra 'Tempest - Know Thyself'. I now acknowledge that I had a good degree of anxiety and carried stress badly at times before all this menopause stuff came along - and having my own estrogen certainly didn't solve it then, so it's unlikely to be a total magical cure now if it comes via patch or a bottle.
It can help women TRANSITION, so that the road is less bumpy for those that need it. But it isn't the curer of all physiological and psychological ills.
I really am so very glad that you're feeling so much more settled now. xxxx
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Thanks Tempest. I certainly don't want the hormones back, natural or HRT.
Shush, don't tell anyone. ;)
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Hello Tempest.
Thank you for a very interesting post.
As you say there is a definite similarity between the symptoms mentioned and the jolly old ride that is the menopause! My trusty meno book notes that more serious mental/ emotional disorders can develop at this time in our lives and it's easy to see why. I think chronic sleep deprivation also plays a part as disturbed sleep can be nerve shredding and when it persists for years it's a wonder anyone holds onto their sanity!
Thanks again for adding the link. The more we learn the better we'll be ( ooh, that could be a bumper sticker).
Take care.
K.
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{{{whispers}}}} after dealing with 3 weeks of HRT induced tremors/migraine/worsened MS muscle spasms.....me neither, Shadyglade! ;) xxxx
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Thank you, Kathleen! It is certainly the up's and down's during the transitional phase that cause the problems, or an unstable form of HRT dosing or frequently changing HRT regimes. That's enough to shred anyone's nerves! :o
Once everything settles - even at low levels - things do become calmer for most women, and Vagifem is then a woman's friend to keep everything down below comfortable if a woman is able to use it (some estrogen positive cancer survivors cannot, of course). xxxx
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:thankyou: love the drawings 8)
Everything that the body suffers is surely, natural? So if treatment is required, why not consider the options? Hunger is natural. Sweating is natural. Periods are natural etc. etc. etc.; we have access to solutions from the day we are born.
It can be Trial and Error to find solutions that suit us. It took me a while to accept that I need to take anti-depressant medication for Life. Once I accepted it DH and I had a Life together again. Anxiety still strikes so I have the chemical measures to hand. Without those I wouldn't be here.
Same with HRT - again can be T&E :-\. But I think that this is probably true with other medications offered but we don't hear as much about those. Some statins can cause intense muscle pain but there are several that GPs can try.
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Interesting reading and applicable to some but not all of us. Everyone's experiences are different, not everyone needs or wants HRT but it's a life-saver for some.
Your post is quite obviously at least partly directed towards things I've said elsewhere. Well, I stick by what I said, it's scientifically established that loss of oestrogen increases your risk of osteoporosis and heart disease, as well as vaginal atrophy. “Increased risk†does NOT MEAN that every post-menopausal woman's bones will “suddenly crumble†or they'll drop dead of a heart attack, or that they will definitely suffer from vaginal atrophy. And no one said that you “turn into a manâ€. You're exaggerating for effect.
I have low risk for osteoporosis and heart disease because of the amount of exercise I've always done, but some women may be at higher risk (family history, poor diet, sedentary lifestyle) so it is entirely appropriate for those women to discuss the pros and cons of HRT with their doctor.
Now let's look at mood problems- I have bipolar type II and I know that my mental health issues are not caused by menopause, but I've always struggled with severe PMS and PND, so hormones do contribute to it. There's pressure from some women, including Louise Newson unfortunately, that you should not take antidepressants for low mood during menopause. That pressure made me stop taking my medication and led to a mental health crisis. Similarly, your post could be construed as pressurising women not to take HRT because you personally don't like it and because menopause is “naturalâ€.
In some respects menopause is a transition, some problems like hot flushes and mood swings relate to fluctuations in hormones, but some problems caused by low oestrogen aren't going to miraculously recover. Not all women have those long term problems which is great, but others do.
I hardly drink, never smoked, I have always been physically very fit, but menopause hit me like a train and I don't give a flying **** whether it's natural, it made me feel severely unwell. Who knows how long they have on this earth, maybe I have 1 more year, maybe 30. I'm sure as **** going to do whatever it takes to maintain a decent quality of life even if it means taking un-natural HRT.
Right, I've said my piece, ignore it, misquote me, do what you want. I have a feeling I'm not going to be staying on this forum much longer!
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Why are you so angry Wilks . It is a perfectly calm discussion. :o
Nobody is having a go at anyone.
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Hello ladies,
Tempest, thank you for the link, it's an interesting approach to anxiety. My own experience is that perimenopause and the hormonal fluctuations do worsen any other previous conditions and possibly act as a trigger to hidden ones.
Regarding treatment, it's a trial and error process highly dependent on individual genetic background and life history. AD's and HRT are options that should be prescribed only when lifestyle changes, psychological therapy and relaxation techniques have failed. Many times these latter are easily forgotten and the former are considered essential. Pharmaceutical marketing and a bit of laziness and conformity comes to mind.
Dotty and Wilks, I'm sure Tempest was referring to another thread. Each one of us has different experiences and health issues, no one is more knowledgeable than the others and opinions are just opinions. Some facts are corroborated by scientific evidence but menopause research is at its infancy. Hormones are powerful molecules. These heated debates are solid evidence of that.
Conolly X
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Wilks, you obviously have a complex that everything is being directed at you which simply isn't the case. The lack of evidence for absolute protection against osteporosis and the fact that cardiac benefits are not absolutely proven were quoted to me by Professor's Lumsden's team. In case you don't know, she authored the latest NICE HRT prescribing guidelines.
The 'turn into a man' quote is from an old thread which may very well pre date your membership of this forum, so obviously isn't directed at you in that case.
I very much also understand how hormones impact bipolar as a very close friend of mine had to work closely with her psychiatrist to balance her medications during the perimenopausal period. Fluctuating hormones very much made her bipolar much more difficult to manage.
Dotty, I did not say that all of the symptoms are psychological and agreed that for women who are experiencing a difficult TRANSITION that HRT can help balance the up's and downs. Without a doubt though, the risk benefit equation shifts after the age of 60 when a woman should be well post menopausal. This is why most GP's and specialists ask women to revisit their HRT needs periodically to see if they are still symptomatic.
On this note, there WILL be a return of symptoms when you drop HRT initially as it is like any other withdrawal syndrome. For some women this tapers off over time and they remain non symptomatic, for others symptoms may linger for some time.
My real worry is for women who are using, for example, 4 pumps of estrogel into their 60's as when they are asked to come off or reduce their HRT by their GP or specialist (again, as the risk/benefit ratio shifts with age), they are probably going to have a pretty difficult time doing so as the WITHDRAWAL symptoms are going to be quite dramatic unless they taper carefully. In the cases of women who are asked to come off due to raised blood pressure or breast issues (in the cases of cysts of a suspicious nature), they may be asked to quit immediately - and then the fall will of course bring on symptoms that are much more severe potentially than those that they had originally when they started HRT if they are using quite a large dose. xxxx
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Thank you for your thoughtful reply, Conolly - I agree with so much that you've stated. Especially about hormones being powerful molecules! Indeed they are - and also about perimenopause exacerbating and unmasking any existing or hidden conditions.
Lifestyle is so important too - you are absolutely right that this avenue shouldn't be neglected.
xxxx
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Hello again ladies.
As we often say on this forum, everyone is different which obviously means that everyone's experience and treatment is also different. Very frustrating all round!
My consultant told me that eighty per cent of women over sixty no longer have symptoms but they continue in the remaining twenty percent and unfortunately there is no way of predicting which group you are likely to be in. I know someone who was still flushing at sixty seven, just like her mother. This lady didn't use HRT as she was able to cope but if her symptoms had been severe she would have sought help. Incidentally a doctor told her that she should welcome her flushes because he believed a drawn out menopause conferred health benefits. He didn't say what he thought these health benefits were plus he may have revised his opinion if he was the one experiencing them for years and years!
This can be a rough ride and we are all trying to get through it the best way we can.
Wishing you all well ladies and take care.
K.
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From what I have read there is a big genetic component to osteoporosis and it should be rembered that some men also suffer. And then there is the importance of good diet and nutrition.
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Bless you, Kathleen. I know yours has been a tough ride - I was just reading your other reply about how you had high hopes after stopping the Tibolone. I really do keep my fingers crossed for you!
You are absolutely right, Shadyglade - this is what I was told by the Prof's team. I had a DEXA scan over a year ago now and had no bone loss - I was told that if I continue to use weight bearing exercise and diet modifications and ensured adequate vitamin D (especially as I'm in Scotland) that this should be sufficient in my own personal case.
It's also a good idea for anyone to check with their GP to see if any other medications that they take may possibly effect bone loss. Some antidepressants have this as a warning, for example. In this case, further supplementation might be warranted if the medication is needed long term. xxxx
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It's unfortunate that it's in your family Stellajane. Have you been tested?
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That's very true, Stellajane.I noted that the wording in the Journal Of Ageing that I quoted a while ago on the forum states that regulators do not recommend ERT for osteoporosis prevention alone, but then of course there are the high risk categories. This can of course include those with genetic risk, as well as those who have had significant eating disorders amongst other causes.
To maintain bone in these individuals at menopause, I have seen quoted that a minimum dosage of 25mcg patch 2 x weekly or 0.3 conjugated equine estrogens daily PLUS adequate calcium and vitamin D supplementation could be helpful.
And of course, anyone who feels they may be in this category should see their GP about having their FRAX score calculated to see how to further proceed. If you don't mind me asking Stellajane, have you been offered this assessment by your GP?
Just parking the NHS recommendations from NHS Choices re: osteoporosis prevention here:
https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/menopause-and-your-bone-health/
xxxx
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That's bad. In the long run it costs the NHS more money. ::)
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My Dad was on a study for osteoporosis in men ......... don't know any details as I had left there by then so it was a passing comment at a time when osteoporosis meant not a lot to me ::). Being the age I am exercise was the way we got about as soon as we walked, because Dad had the car and Mum didn't, so we walked or cycled everywhere. Lots of running in the garden, playing on the beach, wading in the sea - we were outside as much as possible and for ever active.
Connolly - we've had this 'conversation' B4 - without ADs and Anti-anxiety meds I wouldn't be here. My anxiety was instigated within hours of my being born. I had my first panic attack aged 3. Anorexic by age 5. No amount of CBT - which didn't appear in the NHS until the mid-1980s - did anything to alter my mind set. I think for it to be of benefit it needs to be available immediately after an event, again, the NHS lacks the funds to provide this service - there's a waiting list in our area of 22 months :o: I rang the Dept. after reading your suggestions.
Why would I want to alter my Life-style when I was ill, I also had breast treatment and a change of diet was suggested by 'friends'? Other than the two illnesses my Life was good: job I enjoyed, was driving everywhere and anywhere, loving husband, both of us otherwise healthy: [still are] : good GP and Dentist :-*. There wasn't anything that I could change. In the 1990s I had intermittent talking therapy for 2/3 years to get rid of any anger: discuss, decide, ditch : which helped me get rid of frustrations. I can't even remember what those frustrations were ::).
Regardless of genetics I feel that symptoms ladies present with in Surgery should be listened to and understood by GPs of which there is still a hug lack across the UK. My Company paid for DEXA scans but it was of both feet and ankles - the deepest bone apparently in the pelvis ::) and I was advised by the visiting Company providing the scans to alter my diet. However, when going through my diet, there wasn't anything to change ::).
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Shadyglade, I was angry because: 1. controversial opinions are intended to provoke people, no matter how much sugar coating is used, 2. I was misquoted, and 3. I had a mental health crisis at the end of last week.
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I'm really sorry about your problems Wilks but I would say there is difference between contraversal and alternative. Also can't see where the provocation was or the miss quoting. Are you talking about a different thread?
Again sorry if you were upset.
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I meant no provocation Wilks, nor did I misquote you.
Can I offer some very well meaning advice? Please know that this DOES come from the heart. As I mentioned before, a very close friend of mine is bipolar 2 and has had a very tough few years. As part of her self care strategies, she finds that when in crisis she must step away from social media temporarily as any stimulation at all (good or bad) means that it is more difficult for her to stabilise. I think this strategy might help you, just temporarily. It is always nice to see your posts here, but you must take care of your mental health especially when in crisis (I know I probably don't need to tell you this)!
I am very concerned that you have so recently experienced a crisis, and I in no way mean this is a patronising way. Just wanting to help and to show some understanding.
Please do take care. xxxx
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Thanks for your concern. My opinion would remain the same (though I may have been less angry) if I was feeling ok.
I do feel the post is controversial because it insinuates that those of us who choose to take HRT are misguided, don't really understand what anxiety is, and/or are taking it because of anti-aging societal/media comment.
The post is also controversial since it suggests that because menopause is an expected biological event we should just accept it and a healthy lifestyle is pretty much all we need to get us through.
I'm just about getting over the shock and fury I felt when menopause completely trashed my mind and body to the point where life was literally not worth living. I've said this before but I have done decades of sports and healthy eating, I don't drink or smoke, I've had brilliant psychological therapy and yet the menopause almost destroyed me until I got HRT so I do not accept that a healthy lifestyle alone will get me through the menopause.
Finally, I disagree that it's a transition. I've started a thread about that and no one convinced me that it was a transition (except with regard to vasomotor symptoms and mood swings).
Life is very short and very precious and at the age of 49 I'm not about to hand in my resignation.
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Hello again,
Some women don't want HRT, others do but can't cope with side effects, others find the optimal regimen and others can't take it because it poses high risk for previous health issues.
I don't understand why this is controversial. It's a personal decision based on individual differences.
What may be considered controversial is the way that menopausal women are treated by the medical professionals, the health care systems, the pharmaceutical companies and the drug market, not to mention the ordinary people uneducated on the subject.
We're the victims, ladies. If we don't fight for our lives, no one else will. That doesn't mean we have to fight against each other. There's plenty work to be done.
Different experiences regarding HRT or other therapeutic approach are welcome, there's nothing definitive about the best possible management of menopause. Yet. Amen.
Conolly X
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I like that Conolly. My Mum can't remember her menopause and I had left there by then so it had no impact on me, other than her suddenly sitting down and dropping off to sleep. My sister apparently has 'been through all that' ::). It is the medical profession that is behind, often stuck in their ways of 'we know best' and not taking heed of what patients tell them. This happens in other specialities too.
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I used to have frequent migraine but I didn't want to take prophylactic meds because of the side effects. I have also refused antidepressants at times, again because of side effects.
However, I don't go suggesting to people who do take either of those types of meds that they probably don't understand their own bodies or that they haven't given any thought to why they're taking those meds, or that they could manage those conditions through healthy lifestyle alone.
We will just have to agree to disagree- you don't think it's a controversial post but I do!
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Nothing on here is meant to be controversial. The written word can be static. I have no choice in what I take, I am sure it's the same with ladies who choose HRT. Give it a whirl and see if it's beneficial enough to continue with. We have mentioned here B4 that those who don't have problems with symptoms aren't likely to post here so we don't always get a balanced view point.
I have learned too to stick with what I know. It took years to find an AD that didn't make me feel ill so I try not to chop and change.
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Exactly CLKD- most of those women who aren't experiencing problems with menopause are not on this forum, so I would argue that this forum is not the audience for an anti-hrt campaign.
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This is not an anti HRT campaign - and this forum IS called MENOPAUSE Matters - which means all menopause. Those that sail through, those that suffer badly, those that can take HRT and those that cannot.
CLKD, you are right that in the main we have women here who are struggling, but we also have some women who are doing not too badly, some who need advice and a bit of support with balancing hrt, VA issues or who just enjoy the company of the other threads that are a little more lighthearted and not menopause focused. And of course some who have struggled badly in the past, and are now doing better but enjoy the membership here. :)
I think it is also very important to remember Wilks that we have women who are really struggling and who CAN'T take HRT. For this reason, we have to be sensitive about pushing HRT as the only possible solution. This can make women feel despairing, and I have personally witnessed a good few members who have left because they felt there was nothing here for them as they were unable to take HRT. Especially women who have had estrogen positive cancers.
This makes me very sad, as these are the very women who could do with support. xxxx
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If support was given by Consultants there wouldn't be a requirement for us to be here. But it seems that GPs refer patients to Hospital and after what ever is necessary, the patient is referred back 'to the care of the GP'. Maybe too soon in many cases when a Consultant should continue with follow up?
Share experiences. Take what is appropriate at the moment in time. Review, discuss, consider. No query is silly and it doesn't matter what we talk about ;)
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This is not an anti HRT campaign - and this forum IS called MENOPAUSE Matters - which means all menopause. Those that sail through, those that suffer badly, those that can take HRT and those that cannot.
CLKD, you are right that in the main we have women here who are struggling, but we also have some women who are doing not too badly, some who need advice and a bit of support with balancing hrt, VA issues or who just enjoy the company of the other threads that are a little more lighthearted and not menopause focused. And of course some who have struggled badly in the past, and are now doing better but enjoy the membership here. :)
I think it is also very important to remember Wilks that we have women who are really struggling and who CAN'T take HRT. For this reason, we have to be sensitive about pushing HRT as the only possible solution. This can make women feel despairing, and I have personally witnessed a good few members who have left because they felt there was nothing here for them as they were unable to take HRT. Especially women who have had estrogen positive cancers.
This makes me very sad, as these are the very women who could do with support. xxxx
I'm really busy so haven't seen this thread (and just picking up on the last page as this is what has come up!)- but not sure where you get the idea about members "pushing HRT as the only possible solution" ..."Especially women who have had estrogen positive cancers"? I haven't really come across this - in fact from where I am, I see A LOT of sensitivity towards and advice for women who are unable to take HRT. I for one regularly post a link to a paper (have done so ever since it came out) summarising the current thinking about alternative prescribable treatments for menopausal symptoms and specifically but not exclusively aimed at women who are unable to take HRT due to breast cancer. Other members have posted about Clonidine ( also mentioned in the link ) etc and alternative herbal treatments - although the experience of other members and the research has tended to mean these latter tend not to be recommended. OK not all members post links to papers but I haven't come across the attitude you refer to at all - so perhaps you may have not read all the posts and threads where such support and help is given?
For anyone who hasn't seen this before (I've posted it quite a lot!) - here it is again: http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2053369117711646?hootPostID=6690d93930a10b86869c48433ab506e7
Hurdity x
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Hello again,
I respect your opinion, Wilks. But that's what it is, an opinion. We all have opinions. That doesn't mean anything, really. The personal attacks have to stop, that's not healthy. We're here because we need help, for some it's about helping others, because they have found something that works for them and they want to share their positive or negative experiences. All experiences (and opinions) are welcome. Let's not confuse and confound them though. I wish you well, truly. :peace:
Conolly X
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women who aren't experiencing problems with menopause are not on this forum, so I would argue that this forum is not the audience for an anti-hrt campaign.
It's almost as if we are reading two different threads Wilks. I don't read anything anti HRT here but just there are other alternatives. Also if, like me, women choose not to go down the HRT route that does not mean they have not suffered. I had a very long peri and was put on ADs when lack of sleep, due to night sweats, pushed me over a cliff. I also suffered mood swings, anxiety, palpitations, light heads, aches and pains and in the last two years of peri, crushing fatigue with every period. Oh, I forgot the flooding. All that and I've come through and feel pretty good now thanks.
This thread is about choice. Well, at least that is how I read it.
Shadyglade
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Thank you, Hurdity.
I didn't say 'members' pushing HRT, I stated that we have to be SENSITIVE about pushing HRT. I realise that you have posted about alternatives but do know from past experiences with members that some HAVE left as they felt that the focus falls more heavily on HRT. I will not name names, but a good few of them were on the old thread I created 'The Road Less Travelled'. Perhaps you remember it. xxxx
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I think 'sensitive' is a good word. I can remember I nearly joined the forum some years ago, but was put off by what a read in a particular thread. Someone was told that if she did not want HRT she was either 'not suffering enough' or was 'silly'.
Not sensitive. :(
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I have asked myself this question many times,as I am able to sleep and flushes not too bad,although I do get chills after being hot. My problems are more mental problems,like anxiety, depression,mood swings,lack of energy and motivation,not wanting to go out,feeling of jelly legs and sometimes an inner nervousness,like today,so is it all menopause? I don't know,in fact I haven't got a clue xx
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Hi Lisa, have you always had anxiety problems or has it got worse with the meno. I am beginning to think that if it's already part of your makeup then the meno will increase it.
Have you seen your GP.
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Hi shadyglade,I have suffered with anxiety over the years,but this feels different somehow,I have seen lots of gps and am on medication,but I do think that menopause has made it much worse xx
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Ditto.
All I can say is that now post meno I am loads better.
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Thanks shadyglade,that gives me some hope xx
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Hello Lisa and Shadyglade,
My own experience is that perimenopause is a dark place regarding anxiety. Things have calmed down now that I'm postmeno. The hormonal fluctuations seem to make things worse but I'm not sure they can cause anxiety. I have suffered alone and in silence (no HRT or AD's) and now I'm glad it's over (sort of). I'm not advocating that people shouldn't take meds... I'm just too scared to do it without understanding what's exactly going on, so I tried mindfulness and it was a blessing. Before that I thought mindfulness was bs and now I know it works when your brain needs a break and a brake.
Conolly X
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Conolly I'm glad to hear you are over the worst and that mindfulness has helped you through this horrific part of life,I just pray that there is light at the end of this very long dark tunnel xx
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Conolly, love the phrase 'when your mind needs a break and a brake'. I'm stealing that! :) xxxx
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Hello Tempest,
'She said yeah, I'm the stealer...' It's yours, babe :great:
Conolly X
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;D LOVE it!!!! xxxx
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Laughter is the best medicine. We should do more of it. :)
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Conolly I'm glad to hear you are over the worst and that mindfulness has helped you through this horrific part of life,I just pray that there is light at the end of this very long dark tunnel xx
Thank you Lisa1966, there is a light, I just pray it's not the train coming to hit us lol. We ought to keep laughing at this menolarkey, otherwise we're done! And it's so good to have others to share and learn from their experiences.
Conolly X
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Totally agree, Shadyglade ;D
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Hello again ladies.
I think it's reasonable to wonder if emotional problems are truly due to the menopause or perhaps have another cause. I have certainly worried about my mental state during this time. My flushes have never been drenching but I almost welcome them when I feel panicky because it reassures me that my difficulties are basically hormonal and hopefully will pass one day either with or without HRT. I'm hoping to grow out of them!
Stories from people like Carol Vorderman and Meg Matthews who have spoken of suicidal depression and crippling anxiety brought on by the menopause have also reassured me that I'm not alone in experiencing predominantly emotional symptoms.
When the menopause was first mentioned I bought a book on the subject written by an MD and a paragraph in the chapter headed Emotional Symptoms was very clear about the range of problems that we can encounter. I have quoted it before but I hope that another look will help some ladies.
' For many women , menopausal mood changes resemble a roller coaster ride. Women describe sensations such as trembling, fluttering, unease and discomfort. More severe feelings of anxiety or panic can arise with little provocation. Tasks that you used to be able to tackle can leave you in total disarray. Mood swings from elation to despondency are common. Your patience is easily exhausted. The future may look hopeless, your loss of self esteem is precipitous and you my feel truly depressed.‘.
As we know, there are many symptoms of the menopause and I've had my fair share but it's the above paragraph that accurately describes my journey and I've taken comfort from learning that these problems were acknowledged and well understood, even back in 1994 when the book was first published!
I hope this information is of help to some ladies, especially the newbies who have not read it before.
I know how vulnerable and sensitive we can feel when our emotions are in turmoil and we are desperate for relief so when we can support each other without judgement it is a precious and wonderful thing.
Wishing everyone well and hugs to all.
K.
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Thanks Kathleen that's very true for a lot of us ladies,these symptoms are the least understood by gps,it's very frustrating xx
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Hello K,
Thank you very much. This is truly enlightening.
Conolly X
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I absolutely agree that laughter is the best medicine,but I have to admit that my sense of humour has left home at the moment,I can't wait for the day it comes home,maybe it will come home with the football xx
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Let's hope so, Lisa1966! 🍀 😁
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That paragraph you quoted from your book Kathleen, was exactly
what happened to me, to the last letter....
Some nights I thought I'd end up in a mental hospital.
Some nights I thought I was going to die, so I'd prepare for it,
I even wrote short letters to my sons because I was convinced ‘something ‘
was going to happen to me.....I'd literally just shake sitting on the edge of my bed,
not being able to truly let anyone know how I was feeling, because I thought they'd
think I was going mad...
All the letters are destroyed now, and I often think what a fool I was, how I got through
those days, I'll never know..it was truly the worst time of my life...
So now , I'm just so thankful for the hrt I'm on, I definitely don't want anything
like that back again....
Jd x
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Ok, this is my final comment on my last day on this forum:
I have not been pushing an HRT agenda. I'm fully aware that some women don't want or can't take HRT and I've posted numerous supportive comments on a whole range of things that have nowt to do with HRT (including insomnia, anxiety, exercise, migraine, diet, drug interactions, and relieving the pain of VA). I've shared my experiences, I've empathised, and I've occasionally pointed out something that's scientifically inaccurate. I've received help and tried to be helpful back.
However the first post on this thread annoyed me as I've already explained, I personally felt it was anti-HRT and in a number of ways suggested that those of us taking HRT are in denial about ageing and all we need to do is live a healthy lifestyle. I'm not having my choices criticised when my choice has literally saved my life.
I concluded earlier in a post today that we will just have to agree to disagree, which I see has been followed by an accusation of me making “personal attacksâ€. I'm not hanging around to be accused of personal attacks.
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Hello Wilks,
Goodness, I wasn't talking about you... there are other heated discussions going on. I apologise if it sounded like that. You have done a great job so far, don't go away because of this. Peace.
Conolly X
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Kathleen, thank you so much for sharing that paragraph. :)
Ok, for those that do not know me from 'before', I will share my own experience again and clear up some misunderstandings about my title post.
I underwent oopherectomy for suspected ovarian cancer aged 46. Luckily, my complex cyst was benign on pathology. My Mum died of ovarian cancer when she was 54 - diagnosed aged 42.
I went without HRT for over a year post surgery and whilst it was rough, things were improving. I then read a lot of articles online and in the media about how I should be on HRT and against the advice of my surgeon who advised I persevere as my symptoms were manageable, I embarked on my HRT journey. At that time, I joined this forum..
I then tried various types of estrogen with fairly spectacularly bad results - but what I didn't know then was that I also had relapsing remitting MS.
I was completely sure in my own head that my symptoms must have been all menopausal, so continued to play around desperately with HRT doses and types, under the supervision of both my NHS consultant (who was helpful) and a private consultant who wasn't, and who prescribed me my last disastrous prescription last year that actually ended up with me being admitted to hospital for treatment (the Consultant subsequently then refunded my fees in full after my husband contacted them and told them what had happened as a result of their prescribing).
Fast forward, I now suffer from severe episodes of panic and episodic depression - mainly in relation to the events of the last 2 years. I continue to have the 'classic' menopause symptoms, and still see my operating surgeon, have access to Prof. Lumsden's team if needed, am under an endocrinologist, cardiologist, neurologist and a psychiatrist.
I have spent much time picking apart what might be going on for me menopause symptom wise, and what might be due to trauma and my other health conditions. What I can say from own experience - and this is ME - is that until I picked up so much stress with these events, my body was coping BETTER (as was mind) despite undiagnosed MS than it is now. I have of course again tried HRT recently and was hopeful it might help for symptomatic relief under close medical supervision. Sadly, it was evident very quickly that I would not be able to tolerate it.
So - my post isn't anti HRT (I was prepared to give it another go myself), nor is it 'sour grapes' because I cannot take it.
It is more a reflection on how we need to know ourselves - listen to what our bodies and minds are telling us, don't assume everything is menopause related and that we must above all take care of ourselves in general and LIMIT STRESS above all else. Stress has a more detrimental effect on the body and mind than anything else, and limiting it during the transition of menopause means that we a) keep our other stress hormones in check such as cortisol (which rises anyway as we age) - which accelerates the ageing process, can contribute to abdominal obesity, developnent of insulin resistance etc.
b) safeguard against developing new or worsening mental health problems which can persist post menopause such as generalised anxiety or depression which may not respond to HRT.
I hope this clears up a few things - and Wilks, I hope you won't leave as all members opinions are valued. xxxx
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Great post, Tempest.
I'm also a living evidence of what you're saying. Whilst on HRT (3 months) my anxiety levels skyrocketed. I have blood clotting issues and doctors saying transdermal is safer didn't alleviate my fears. Obviously I have other issues going on (stress, family, ageing) and I was hoping that HRT would provide some relief so I could manage them, but it was the other way around. I stopped and felt better immediately. I'm not saying I will never try it again, I just don't like the way I've been convinced to start it when a lot of other issues were going on.
It looked like a nice idea (no pun intended) when in fact it's a big decision and you should be functioning, at least brain wise, to be able to made an informed and reasonable decision. I know that's not easy but it should be made clear that there are other options. They can demand more effort but are also less risky.
Conolly X
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Wilks - I hope you will be reading this as I know you said you were leaving the forum yesterday. I just want to say that I've found all your posts very supportive on this forum and I would be sad to see you go.
I totally agree with you about hrt. It has given me my life back too and I would advise any woman to not be afraid of it and to take it. A healthy lifestyle didn't help me at all.
I hope you stay to pass on your experiences to others .
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Wilks, I also I had a very healthy lifestyle which hasn't helped me with my menopausal symptoms. Hrt is finally beginning to dig me out of the hell I've been in for 5 years.
My journey has been very similar to yours so I have found your posts useful and would be sad to see you go x
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Also - our bodies are full of hormones, not only sexual ones. So other hormones may be affected once ladies reach peri-menopause.
I had bouts of sobbing the night prior to a bleed even if a period wasn't due. Sure enough the next morning ......... I know that some have problems with thyroid function at The Change. So the over-all body can be affected.
It's about sharing. Sorting through what suits me at the time. Which is why my 'make notes' may be helpful to some for it symptoms alter or become worse. Nowt is written in stone ;)
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That's good news Hasty. Have you told anyone else with MS that you are in contact with?
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It amazes me how different our body chemistry reacts to meds hormones etc. Just simple things like pain killers affect people differently. There is no 'one size fits all' so we all have to find our own path.
So glad you have found yours Hasty. :)
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Hello again ladies.
Thank you for the lovely comments regarding my post, much appreciated.
I know nothing about MS I'm afraid but am I right in thinking that for some people there is an inflammatory aspect to the illness? I ask because Louise Newson has said that oestrogen has anti inflammatory effects on the body so for those with this sensitivity HRT may be helpful. It may also be true that any anti inflammatory foods or medications may also help.
Take care ladies.
K.
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Thank you, Kathleen! Actually, it's not as straightforward as that - estrogen can be both pro and anti inflammatory depending on circumstances and hormonal balance:
https://www.womensinternational.com/portfolio-items/inflammation/
Cortisol also has a huge role to play too, which as I said before increases as we age and in response to stress and diet. There is more about this in the article.
Hasty, my Neurologist said it can go either way which is why we thought it was worth a go. I'm so glad it's helping you! How are you handling this weather? It's a beast, isn't it? Pseudo flares make me panic, and so far we've had about 10 weeks non stop of this heat! xxxx
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Cortisol is a demon. Now that is something that diet and lifestyle can help with. Increasingly doctors are beginning to realise what an impact it has on our physical and mental health. I have a family member for whom cortisol is believed to have played a major role in his General Anxiety Disorder.
Another bothersome hormone. ::)
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Hello ladies,
Apparently there's also something called 'good inflammation' to make things more complicated.
https://multiplesclerosisnewstoday.com/2018/06/01/indazole-chloride-promotes-myelin-repair-through-good-inflammation-in-mice-with-ms-study-reports/
Conolly X
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That is SO interesting, Conolly - thank you! My Neurologist says MS is still something of an enigma. We are very lucky here as we have an excellent Institure Of Neurological Science at our new Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Glasgow. It was formerly the Southern General Hospital and has been known as a centte of excellence for all things Neurology for a long time.
As an aside (and going off topic) i'm awaiting a SPECT DaT scan to measure my dopamine levels - this should be interesting and who knows if there is something amiss there that may be adding to my symptoms and maybe why I haven't benefited from HRT but Hasty luckily has? They are very thorough - i'll give them that! xxxx
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Hello Tempest,
Glad to know you are in good hands, keep us posted on the scan results. It sounds very techy. ;)
Conolly X
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Tempest, I think I understand the message you are trying to pass. Like many women going through the change, it feels like it's been/is a journey that has led me to exploration and many conclusions. I've been through what feels like hell in the past 2 years, culminating 7 months ago, and it got so bad that I genuinely thought I was dying from some horrible disease. It was the worse time of my life.
Thankfully, I started to get gradually - very gradually- better and I can now look back and feel I gain a better understanding of my own health, and like you, I think the main cause of all my perimenopause symptoms has been stress. I didn't see it as such then because my life has always been full of it and I've always managed it. What I think happened is that the effect of the perimenopause (poor sleep, anxiety, poor concentration etc...) have impacted on my ability to cope with stressful events, which in result have made all the perimenopause symptoms worse, until I got stuck in that complete vicious circle.
As my GP got bored of being sympathetic and carrying out blood tests and investigations to appease me, he finally managed to convince me to go on hrt. I was on it 3 months and it didn't help me much in that it helped some aspects but made others worse. I came off it and the first two months off were the best I felt in years!
Ultimately, I think things got better because I started to work on dealing with the stress, applying mindfulness tactics that don't work immediately, but do with time. Unfortunately, stressful events are back in my life, events that I can't avoid, and I'm back to find it much harder to be resilient to it than I used to be. Poor sleep being the worse part of the vicious circle, but what I've learned and try to apply so far means I so far manage better than I did a year ago.
My view on hrt is that it does wonder to symptoms that are directly attributable to the hormonal dysfunction, but maybe not so well when the symptoms are attributed to other disorders and the menopause symptoms only accentuate them.
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I agree Stellajane. We're all different. X
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Yes we are all different genetically but we are all governed by the same biological and cellular processes, hence we can have confidence in evidence based treatments if necessary. However as these are based on studies of populations - we cannot say how one individual will be affected or respond - but can look at the likelihood of something working or not. Similarly with the risks of experiencing certain conditions and diseases of ageing, and post-menopause - these are based on population studies so an individual can decide whether to accept the risk (eg of osteoporosis) in the absence of HRT, especially in women reaching menopause at younger than the average age ( I use this as an example) - but we have no idea whether we will be one of those - although genetic factors play a part. We each have to decide whether to do the experiment on ourselves - ie let "nature" take its course but maybe find out many years later that we are one who for whom the outcome is adverse - or else intervene when younger to try to ward off the impending effect!! Everyone needs to have access to up to date and reliable evidence-based information, as well as proper up to date medical advice - in order to be able to make that decision.
Hurdity x
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Personally I don't find anything natural or positive in meno. I don't think that it is natural or positive for our health or our survival. I don't think that insomnia, muscle loss, dryness, osteoporosis, sweating etc are natural at all! The opposite! Because they are not natural, our body suffer too much. The Nature simply don't need us after meno.
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Yes we are all different genetically but we are all governed by the same biological and cellular processes, hence we can have confidence in evidence based treatments if necessary. However as these are based on studies of populations - we cannot say how one individual will be affected or respond - but can look at the likelihood of something working or not. Similarly with the risks of experiencing certain conditions and diseases of ageing, and post-menopause - these are based on population studies so an individual can decide whether to accept the risk (eg of osteoporosis) in the absence of HRT, especially in women reaching menopause at younger than the average age ( I use this as an example) - but we have no idea whether we will be one of those - although genetic factors play a part. We each have to decide whether to do the experiment on ourselves - ie let "nature" take its course but maybe find out many years later that we are one who for whom the outcome is adverse - or else intervene when younger to try to ward off the impending effect!! Everyone needs to have access to up to date and reliable evidence-based information, as well as proper up to date medical advice - in order to be able to make that decision.
Hurdity x
Sorry Hudity, I really can't agree with this. Unless you have an early menopause there is little evidence that HRT is going to be beneficial for ageing illnesses e.g heart disease, osteoporosis.
https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/menopause-and-your-bone-health/
https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/cvdhrt.php
https://www.bhf.org.uk/heart-health/living-with-a-heart-condition/women-with-a-heart-condition/menopause-and-heart-disease
As for your implication that women are taking 'a risk' by choosing, or not being able to take HRT, I find that more than a little extreme. I read post after post,on the forum, from women who struggle to find the 'right' HRT, and many seem to give up. Surely they are the ones who are experimenting.
Each to their own, please
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My mum who's 61 has taken HRT since age 45 has been diagnosed with oestoporosis and both her sisters age 57 & 59 with Oestopenia also taking HRT.
Makes me worry about my bones!!
X
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Hello Otes73,
Sorry to hear that, and you're absolutely right to be worried but thanks to DEXA scans and new medication available your probable (but not certain) genetic predisposition can be counteracted. Don't forget exercise and diet, it's up to you!
Hugs,
Conolly X
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I agree that there will always be women for whom HRT will not work and it would be interesting to know why. There will also be women who don't want to take HRT for various reasons but that should be because they don't want to take it and not because they are frightened of it and think it causes cancer.
From my own experience and from reading posts on here, I think the main problem with HRT is that too many women are on the wrong type at the wrong dose and only get minimal symptom relief - I call it being stuck in the HRT halfway house. There needs to be much more flexibility and I think that dose flexibility of both oestrogen and progesterone is the key to success. For example, I think too many HRT regimes have too high a dose of progesterone which often overly opposes the oestrogen and drowns out all the good work it does. That might not be a huge problem if you tolerate progesterone well but if you are progesterone intolerant (or sensitive) like me then it is a complete non starter. Luckily I only need a very small amount of progesterone but perhaps a lot of women would not have persevered as I have and given up on HRT thinking it doesn't work or isn't worth the hassle.
Far more flexibility and tailor made HRT regimes are needed.
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As an aside: when I needed anti-depressant medication in the late 1980s it was Trial and Error as side effects were severe. But my GP persevered and I had to otherwise :-\. Fortunately once we found a tablet which didn't make me sick and helped over-all, it worked for 10 years+. 4 me it was a matter of Life or ...........
So maybe HRT is similar? In that ladies get worn down by a) not being listened to initially, b) having difficulty with what is prescribed, c) worrying about cancer scares which GPs don't bother to reassure them about ..........
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MaryG do you think it's because it's a women's issue and therefore not enough experts and research.
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Hello Mary G,
That's interesting regarding tailor made HRT, but how do you think that could be done? Compounded medication is not recommended by NICE, big pharmaceutical companies don't seem interested in producing variable dosage regimens for menopause purpose.
Conolly X
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Shadyglade, yes, I do think it is partly because it's what people think of as a women's issue and a supposedly natural process but I think it is partly due to lack of funding and research. HRT has been stuck in a rut for years partly due to the deeply flawed and discredited HRT studies that wrongly stopped so many women from taking it. But I also think that the NHS are too rigid and stick to the guidelines like glue and don't think outside the box. There seems to be a one size fits all approach and very little help or flexibility for women who, for example, are progesterone intolerant.
GPs are not up to date with latest guidelines or HRT products either which doesn't help and time and time again we have women on here who have had rubbish advice from their GPs. I have had to work everything out for myself and seek help privately. There is no way the NHS would sanction my HRT regime but it works extremely well for me and might for others if they had the chance to try it.
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Conolly, when using products like Oestrogel, Utrogestan and other types of progesterone that are available separately, it is possible to tailor the dose to suit the individual. These products have the capacity to provide wide ranging dose flexibility if the will is there to do it. That is why menopause specialists like Professor Studd and Dr Newson like using these products.
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It seems odd to me that with most other meds etc., they are tailored to suit. You would not have everyone on the same dose/make of blood pressure meds. It does not make sense at all.
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DH and I take the same statins ........... useful when I forget to order my next packet ;)
I believe that it's because menopause is 'out there' ....... in that it begins so much later than many other problems that affect the human population. GPs aren't taught about it. NICE guidelines are sometimes stuck to [thinking of the cannabis medication required by a few people which has been in the Press recently], NICE not funding treatments that would assist patients across the UK because they are in the minority.
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I agree Shadyglade.
Mary G, let's take Utrogestan for example... a lot of women feel dreadful taking 100 mg. I can't be on a sequential regimen so for me it's 100 mg every night or nothing. It's way too much, I've gone haywire, suicidal thoughts.
Conolly X
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Well, CLKD, you've said on the Body Natural thread that menopause is a natural and old phenomenon. So there should be lots of different dosages of HRT... ;)
Conolly X
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I apologize that I didn't read all 7 pages of this thread before posting, but I read the article posted in the link and it did resonate with me and I wanted to say something about the anti-anxiety and anti-depressant drugs.
My experience was that I started perimenopause in 2015 - at least I diagnosed myself as perimenopause since my periods became very erratic on and off, heavy and light, etc. and I was the right age for it. I didn't have reliable GYNO doc at the time. I relied on my primary care doctor, who I later discovered knew nothing about menopause. By December of 2015, my perimenopause symptoms were so out of control, I was a mess (I now believe it was hormonal). Things were happening in my body that scared me, including heart palpitations, feeling sick all the time, and many other symptoms. I ended up in the emergency room that December because I thought I was having a heart attack! I wasn't. My primary care doctor immediately diagnosed me with general anxiety disorder. At 47 years of age, I had never experienced any anxiety or depression in my life, so I didn't understand how this just came on overnight. The primary care doc never said it was possibly tied to perimenopause and hormones, but my guess now is that it was the perimenopause phase that triggered the anxiety in my body. He put me on a very high dose of Xanax, I mean, he started me on 2 mg a day and then upped it to 4 mg a day when I complained that I was feeling sick in between doses. I knew something wasn't right. I understood that I might have anxiety, but I shouldn't be feeling so sick in between the doses of Xanax. Long story short (too late), after I researched Xanax and other benzo drugs, I learned about dependency on the drug. In 2 short months, my body had become so dependent on the doses of Xanax, that I was going through withdrawals in between doses! It was crazy! I ditched that primary care doc and found a new one who better understood and agreed with me that the Xanax had become a big part of my sickness. It took over 8 months to taper me off that drug. It was pure hell, the worst thing I've been through. I was literally bedridden and sick so much of the time going through withdrawals from Xanax. I will never, ever touch that prescription drug again.
After making it through that drama, my hormones continued to act up. But still, no doctor would agree that it was tied to hormones and perimenopause. By now, I knew I was in perimenopause because the periods continued to come and go, on one month, off 2 or 3 months, on 2 months, off 1 month. I never knew when I would have one. I still had anxiety, so they put me on Zoloft. Even though I wasn't depressed, the docs said that studies showed an antidepressant can help many women dealing with menopause. Literally, the same type of thing happened all over again, my body started to become dependent on that drug and I had to go through another whole withdrawal process from that drug. It wasn't nearly as bad as the Xanax withdrawals, but it still made me feel sick and was difficult to get off of it.
By the start of 2017 I was finally officially off all those prescriptions. It was a complete nightmare. I know that some people need and handle anti-anxiety and anti-depressants fine, but my body did not like them and they caused me more grief than I can describe in words. My point is, be careful with these drugs. They may seem like a quick fix to the problem, but many bodies become very dependent on these medications and it's very, very difficult to come off of them.
I continued to struggle with the perimenopause, but still, no doctor would agree that my horrible symptoms were related to hormones. So in 2017, testing for everything and anything that could be wrong with me began, from cancer testing to every autoimmune disease to anything you could think of. They found nothing. I'm still technically in perimenopause, but I haven't had a menstrual period since December 2017, so I think I'm on my way to reaching the "official" menopause. I do believe my body and symptoms have calmed down and I continue to feel better than I have in the last 3 years. However, even my new OB/GYN doctor still disagrees that my symptoms are related to menopause. She says that since I haven't had a period since last December that I have no hormonal activity happening in my body anymore so I shouldn't feel sick. I disagree, but I'm not the medical professional. I do however know my body and know that something is still "off" in my system. Based on this forum, and other things I have read, it seems the UK doctors seem to understand menopause better than American doctors where I live. Pretty much everything I have learned about menopause has been from my own research. I hope I continue to feel better and that the next phase, post menopause, doesn't bring as much severe sickness as the perimenopause phase.
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I must admit that from what I have read here I am sure I took the right route for me. Life and the menopause were complex enough without adding HRT brands, doses, patches, gels or tablets into the mix. Plus the trouble lots of the have just getting your prescriptions forefilled. Peri was very tough at times but I have lived to fight another day.