Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Charys on May 14, 2018, 08:44:16 PM
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Okkkkayyyyy, am I entering a new phase of unpredictable? Some will know I've posted here about period cycles being closer together and really heavy during perimeno. This has been going on for 2 or three years. I've had some good support and advice on the matter here. Then last month, period came on day 20 (never been that early before), that lasted 12 days (never had that before).
This month, waiting......nowt so far and it now day 36 and can't 'feel' like anything is building. What meaneth this, oh wise ladies of the forum ? Am I moving onwards in my perimeno to some other stage or other ? PLEeeasseee hope I am. I've seen others talk about the stages of perimenopause' and they seem to understand what these weird and wonderful erratic changes mean. Look forward to any thoughts - but getting a bit paranoid that when and if it does come itll be belting awful :'( Ahh well, I have got my mefenamic acid prescription ready, haven't use it yet, maybe my hormones knew I had been prescribed it. lol
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Anyone...? :D
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Trying one more time.....bump
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Sorry nobody has replied Charys. All I can say is this sounds completely normal for peri and some ladies can go many months without a period but you have to go a whole year without one to be classed as menopausal. Peri menopause can last upto 10 years! Nobody can say where you are in peri and if you read up on the forum, you will see that some ladies are still going through peri into their late 50's and some women have big gaps of 9, 10 months without a period only to get one and then have to start all over again waiting for when it's been a whole year! Oh joy of joys!
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Thanks so much for replying Snooze. That makes sense what you are saying - but can ask an additional question? - and this is going to sound a bit dumb. In the time when you are having a gap from the periods, like missing one, does the uterus just keep getting thicker and thicker? So, could you like get to 12 months and then....its awful. Or does it kind of stop doing anything?
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I'm not sure sorry. You could always google that question!
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Hi Charys
The stages of reproductive ageing have been characterised but of course not every woman will fit into the pattern! The phenomenon of periods getting closer together is usually part of the Late Reproductive Stage and after this they start to become more erratic and the cycle can vary a lot between periods. Once it varies by at least 7 days between periods this is deemed to be the start of peri-menopause although in practice some of the hormones begin to go erratic well before this and can give rise to worsening pms for example. If you Google "STRAW" reproductive ageing then you can read about it.
During peri-menopause some cycles you don't ovulate and in this case the uterus lining does get thicker - hence the heavier and erratic bleeding. This is why a Mirena coil is often recommended at this point - or else some of the contraceptive pills ( not POP once you have reached peri though).
Do have a read of this article about peri-menopause: https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/magazine/pdf/Article%20-%20Perils%20of%20the%20Perimenopause.pdf
I hope this helps to answer some of your questions and puts your mind at rest!
As always - if you are concerned about your bleeding at all then do consult your doctor.
Hurdity x
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Thank you so much Hurdity for taking the time to reply, I truly appreciate it. So, this might mean that I am no longer in the late reproductive stage, and moving onwards(day 37 and still waiting). I've had a year or so of much shorter cycles, and heavy bleeding, with a couple with 2 periods a month.I will indeed look up the links you have posted, that is very helpful.
So, I understand about the lining building in the lack of ovulation case that you've talked about here....but what about if say I don't have a period for 2 or 3 months, surely it doesn't just keep on going ? I mean what stops it, otherwise you'd have a stomach full of uterus lining by 12 months? I know this is an odd question, I'm just a bit scared at the moment, thinking about what could happen if and when it starts.
Actually, that might just be a dumb question, sorry if it is. :(
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OK, Ive just looked up a complicated looking diagram of STRAW.....ok, that explains things well.
I just feel kind of horribly bloated, and my tummy doesn't feel right. I've seen others talk about this too though.
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Rightho, a bit more research....I'm now at 38 days and no sign of 'anything' coming.
I looked back in my diary and started recording heavy and fluctuating cycle length 4 years ago, along with a few others things like flushes during menstruation, cycle length has been shortening and shortening in the last 2 years.....and got to 20 days. Looking back (isn't retrospect a great thing), I can see that I was having annovulatory cycles certainly 3-4 years ago, and the last year has been bizarrely irregular with every manner of possibility.
So.....I'm now going to place myself on the 'late perimenopause' section of the STRAW. I know that the 60 day with no period is instructive as a guide to really being in that phase, but I've never in my life had a time where my period hasn't come (apart from pregnancy), so something must be different? Does this mean I am now low oestrogen at the moment? (cos I've always thought in earlier stages I was low progesterone).I feel tired, a bit cold, headachey and tearful right now, which ties in with low Oestrogen?
INterested in the thoughts of anyone who knows and understands STRAW and hormones ;).
I know I'm probably being a pain, but I do like to try and understand things if I can - specifically as I can't take HRT so am trying to reassure myself that I am slowly but surely mmoving through this horrible episode in life. Sorry, lots of questions.
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Hi Charys
No-one can say exactly what is happening to you specifically in terms of hormones - those STRAW criteria record general principles arrived at by looking at lots of studies and lots more women! The general trend is for less oestrogen to be produced as the ovaries start to pack up. I don't think the STRAW model looks at oestrogen levels - but the fluctuations can be very great so you can have times of very high oestrogen and also very low. A few women monitor (and record) their temperature and cervical mucus etc every single day :o - (probably mostly in women who have fertility problems so that they can know when they ovulate) so can say consequently when their oestrogen is high. Most of us don't have much of a clue - except as a general principle women feel at their best leading up to ovulation when oestrogen is high and at its highest (and progesterone is at a minimum). I'm not sure what the symptoms of (naturally) extra-high oestrogen are though, or if they are unpleasant? I imagine one might feel super-charged and raring to go ::) !!!
Did you read the peri-menopause article - that and the STRAW paper look at what's happening in terms of some of the hormones and follices being produced by the ovary? It's pretty complex and keeps escaping me (apart from the basics!).
Re feeling tired and cold - have you had your thyroid function tested - as this can also begin to go awry during peri-menopause, for some reason.
By the way usually your lining doesn't go on building and building in the absence of periods - early on it can do because lots of follicles are "recruited" by the ovary and start to develop - each producing some oestrogen - and then eventually there is a dominant follicle and the rest disappear - the dominant follicle is the one in which the egg ripens and then ovulation can take place. There are other hormones involved.... once they start to pack you barely get any follicular activity so very little oestrogen - although some continues to be produced even after menopause. I did read somewhere a while back that there is a theory (?) that when the uterus becomes atrophied ( long after menopause) and in the absence of HRT, the oestrogen receptors in the womb lining become insensitive ( ?less sensitive) to oestorgen so the lining does not thicken - otherwise we would all be having post-menopausal bleeding at frequent intervals and the incidence of endometrial cancer would be high. Sorry this is just off the top of my head from what I remember of what I've read so a bit garbled! There is a ton of info out there but you have to Google and research and dig out the relevant papers.
Hope it helps a bit though :)
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The very high oestrogen feeling is like you're super charged... with your fingers stuck in the electric socket!
It's extremely unpleasant and frightening at its strongest with nausea, palpitations, shaking, feeling freezing cold and sore breasts. At my worst I had to have an ultrasound and the technician said I looked like I had an alien in my body trying to get out with all the physical surging!
Obviously it can cause growths as well (endo, polyps, fibroids etc.).
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Hurdity thanks SO much for taking the time to write me such a long reply....I am truly very grateful, as feeling quite lost right now. Yes, I've read the articles on here, just about all of them, and the one to the links posted earlier, but it was quite complicated and my lack of hormonal understanding is obviously showing ;) I've never done any monitoring of anything, like temp and so on....and no point starting that now I guess. ;) I shall go back and try to internalise that article again! I'm one of those people who likes to know and understand everything, which is probably why I'm struggling with this lack of consistency and lack of clarity that the human body is currently expressing to me). Dangermouse, I don't recognise those symptoms you refer to in relation to oestrogen being high actually, so that feels positive to me (is it? lol) so that would probably indicate it is low/normal currently.
Thanks both so much, it does help to 'hear the voices' of others who have done this.
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Yes those were at the extreme end, otherwise it can all be quite subtle and, as you say, tricky to work out.
Too much or too little of anything will not make you feel good!
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Indeed, I understand the too much or too little thing.
Can I ask....is it within the realms of peri to have months and months of shorter and heavier cycles, and then rapidly and suddenly have a missed cycle? I honestly feel so confused and anxious about this, as never had it happen.
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I've not had that yet but yes I'm pretty sure it's normal for them to get closer together before you start skipping the odd one and then I guess the gaps become longer until they completely stop.
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Thanks dangermouse...again :D Anyway the whole 'skipped period' thing is cancelled now, arrived on day 40. Honestly don't know if I feel happy or sad....I was desperately low yesterday and didn't know what to do with myself. Within hours my mood has lifted....so guess I'm more glad its arrived.
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Hi,
Since last summer I have had longer gaps between periods (mostly 6-8 week gaps), then one shortly after the last one in Dec 2017, and then nothing... in March I started feeling pretty rough like with water retention and probably wild hormone fluctuations, then blood pressure went "off the rails", and things did not get any better. Then, at the end of April, after nearly 4 months, another period with lots of hormone fluctuations. I am now hoping that I am in late peri but there is no way to tell. Never had gaps between periods like that before (and neither such crazy hormone imbalances). Sleep was very patchy and often 3-4 hours only, and felt exhausted in the morning already. Now, things have calmed down again and I feel about 75% "normal" but not every day. Good luck and all the best.
Anna
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HI Anna,
I truly sympathise. It seems I'm a little behind you, if things follow a pattern, which is seems often that they don't! The lack of sleep is horrendous at just the time you need extra rest to be able to cope with the fluctuations. I have to say that last night I resorted (at 2 am) to a small piece of sleeping tablet, and got another two hours. The last week has been as you describe though, terrible sleep issues. The hormone fluctuation outcome this time was the worst I've had, I honestly didn't feel PMT-ish (I've always had bad PMT) but really depressed, and pacing with anxiety. I didn't know what to do with myself yesterday and spent most of it crying.
Its the not knowing isn't thats so hard - each month you just have no clue what is going to be thrown at you, what will happen and what will change or not change. I think I would have been better yesterday had I have known that today a period would come, but everything felt unsurmountable and never-ending yesterday.
Anyway, feel free to have a chat with me if you ever want to - not that I know anything much - but happy to share notes and sympathise.
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Ah yes the 40 day'ish cycle was happening to me last few months. I think it's because they're anovulatory and so no progesterone is produced and so oestrogen just continues to surge.
I'm back on my progesterone cream now so my cycles are 28 days but still can feel the surging to some degree until the period.
You may find this article of interest (aside from the over dramatic title!) http://estrogenerrors.com/blog/great-perimenopause-cover
It's based on the CEMCOR research into perimenopause.
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That IS a very interesting article, the 'oestrogen myth' is something I would have believed until recently! You know....until I joined this forum I honestly felt so alone, despairing and confused. I've had hormone problems in my life before...very bad post natal issues (hospitalised and advised against another pregnancy), and was taken off tamoxifen within weeks due to how to changed me mentally. I can't have HRT, well I 'can' but due to the breast cancer its not obviously a great idea; so being here and reading the stories of unpredictability and change in the perimeno women (and from those who went before me) is comforting, at a time I feel is such immense upheaval. Thanks Dangermouse :)
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You may find this article of interest (aside from the over dramatic title!) http://estrogenerrors.com/blog/great-perimenopause-cover
It's based on the CEMCOR research into perimenopause.
Thanks for posting dangermouse - I think I've seen this one before. Some of the stuff being said in there though, is frankly wrong ( I read it earlier) - some research is quoted but other points are just one woman's opinion. This paragraph for example is full of errors and misconceptions!
"It is now proven that 300 mg of oral micronized progesterone at bedtime decreases sleep disruption, improves refreshing rapid eye movement sleep and doesn't cause a foggy mind the next morning (15). There is also reason to believe that progesterone, like medroxyprogesterone (16) will help hot flushes and night sweats. It is important, however, to realize that no drug has been proven effective for perimenopausal vasomotor symptoms in randomized controlled trials. Oral contraceptives were not effective (17) and no study has shown that estrogen works. "
For most women 300 mg oral progesterone would be anathema and would cause at least a foggy head and more - progesterone has a known sedative effect which is more pronounced in larger doses!
Yes it is known that HIGH doses of some progestogens like MPA can control hot flushes but this is when given in high pharmaceutical doses ie when used as a drug.
As for the assertion in the article that no drug has been proven effective for vasomotor symptoms and no study has shown that oestrogen works - this is utter bunk!
It is really important in all of this for us to try to read source material and from some of the learned medical or menopause societies - there is an awful lot of other stuff out there - often written by people who have something to sell. Always difficult to know what to accept and what not to accept.
I'm not saying that oestrogen doesn't reach high peaks during early peri - I think this is generally accepted - but this isn't a reason to stuff progesterone down your throat as the article implies women should be doing! Yes progesterone does play important metabolic functions but as far as I understand it is only needed in large doses to prepare for and maintain a pregnancy. At other times it is still produced but at a low level. In any case there are question marks over breast cancer risks through long term intake of progesterone or other progestogens. In anovulatory cycles it is pretty much essential anyway to protect the endometrium.
As for the later paragraphs saying we all recover from menopause and it's natural for them (oestrogen and prog) to be low - this is so out of date - there is so much research and general consensus now of the health consequences of oestrogen deficiency. This isn't the place to list them all but really - please MM readers do not take this article as the reliable source for info about the role of oestrogen and progesterone and menopause!
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Indeed, I understand the too much or too little thing.
Can I ask....is it within the realms of peri to have months and months of shorter and heavier cycles, and then rapidly and suddenly have a missed cycle? I honestly feel so confused and anxious about this, as never had it happen.
What happens isn't a missed cycle or skipped one as such - as you will have read in the STRAW article the general trend is for periods to start getting shorter and then eventually start to get irregular and specifically longer - and once they start to vary by 7 days between cycles this is termed the start of peri-menopause - so it sounds like this is where you are going at the moment!
It is also the extreme fluctuations that tend to cause the problems in early peri-menopause - which lead to the mood swings - I think I posted the link to the article on "Perils of the Perimenopause" which explains what's happening to your body.
Can't remember if I've already said but if the mood swings and the fluctuations are bothering you to the extreme then you can take something to regulate your cycle ie one of the CCP types - sorry if I've repeated myself - can't see back to my earlier reply.
As for that article - some of the stuff being said in there is frankly wrong ( I read it earlier) - some research is quoted but other points are just one woman's opinion. The article is full of errors and misconceptions!
It is really important in all of this to try to read source material and from some of the learned medical or menopause societies - there is an awful lot of stuff out there - often written by people who have something to sell.
Sorry Charys - I've just read your latest post after answering the various previous posts - I hadn't appreciated in all of our discussions that you have had breast cancer - I have lost track. If you cannot take oestrogen because of this and your oncologist has vetoed this, then there are medications that do control hot flushes, if these are bothersome. There is a paper with reference to breast cancer - I did post this recently for someone and if it was you - sorry again for repeating myself - I can't remember who I've posted what to - anyway if so - here it is again:
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2053369117711646?hootPostID=6690d93930a10b86869c48433ab506e7
This is a summary of the relevant section:
"Since paroxetine is the SSRI with the best evidence for efficacy19,23 effective at 10 mg daily, it is the SSRI of choice for patients not taking tamoxifen and the more usual 20 mg dose chosen if an antidepressant effect is also required.
Venlafaxine is the preferred treatment for breast cancer survivors taking tamoxifen, and at 75 mg, there is significant reduction in hot flushes with concomitant improvement in fatigue, mental health and sleep disturbance.2"
I hope this helps and you manage to find a solution that works for you - and do keep posting - as you say this is a time of great upheaval. All the best :)
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I guess a lot of what we read is opinion and, yes, who knows what is relatable to ourselves until you try it.
That dose of Utrogestan does seem high but I don't know if it feels different taken on it's own (without estradiol), I really should be a guinea pig and try it if the doc will prescribe.
I think the main bits that were interesting were that most women do recover from perimenopause, which ties in with most women I know who say they really suffered in their 40s but feel great in their 50s (none I know of took HRT), my sister said the same for her friendship group. I'm sure it's still fine to take HRT to smooth the path but feeling good after menopause would probably happen whether you took it or not as it's easy to assume its because of what you're taking, when it would have all calmed down anyway. Saying that, some may have a strong imbalance to start with that will always need correcting.
The other part is the balancing role that oestrogen and progesterone have, I liked the analogy of the wings of a plane! Although progesterone is notedly important for pregnancy, it needs to always rebalance oestrogen so is also essential for bones, heart, skin etc. to keep oestrogen from causing growths and providing the yang to the yin (as in oestrogen grows bones and progesterone strengthens them).
I agree that (synthetic) progestins shouldn't be used though as they can increase cancer risk, unless you don't have a choice and quality of life is better.
Another interesting bit I read today in Dr Katharina Dalton's PMT book is that if you suffered from PMT in your 20s, that you'll have an easier menopause as it means you have higher than average oestrogen (but may suffer more in peri). Conversely if you had an easier time when younger that you are likely to have a rough meno from too low oestrogen.
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Thanks everyone for your recent replies. I take on board that not all information is accurate on the WWW (infact a lot of it is dubious), but I guess the key to it is that you have to read a variety of sources....some things will relate....some won't. I'm not hugely interested personally anyway in the meds that can be taken, as my oncologist has said they won't be given to me, so I ignored that part anyway, but I thought there were some nice analogies and I felt it was positive about the future - which is kind of what I'm needing right now.
Hurdity, don't worry about forgetting the BC thing, yes was diagnosed at 47. Second year mammo was clear though a few weeks ago. :) As it happens I don't get hot flushes at all, apart from the day before a period is due, and guess what - I've been on venlafaxine for years ! Flushes were also the only side effect that I didn't get on tamoxifen....So, there we go, an example of how it does work, as you correctly stated.
Yes, its the mood swings that are bothering me most, they are crippling me at times....what is the CCP type ? You are so darned knowledgeable lady.
I promise I have read every link you've posted Hurdity ....and I understand that getting to the source material is a good idea. :D
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Hurdity.....can I ask you something else? (or anyone, who knows the answers ...Dangermouse? lol)
What makes periods stop-start? I know it happens, I know its a normal part of this stage....but wondering what the specific hormonal reason is. Thinking back now, years ago, I started getting days where there would be nothing and then it would start again. Now, its even more stop-start than before.....tap on, an hour later...tap off.
I'm just interested really, as am trying to build my knowledge of reasons for things to help me feel less anxious.
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Hi there
So glad to hear your recent mammo was clear :)
CCP is the combined contraceptive pill ( I shouldn't have used abbreviations - I post quickly though as pretty busy!) but I wrote that before I read about your breast cancer but left it in in case it helped others - sorry it's irrelevant to you.
I just happened to have read a lot and also older than many on here as mid 60's, have been on HRT for 11 years and have made sure I know what I'm taking and why. I came on this forum originally years ago to ask questions and like Dancinggirl said recently to another member - just want to give something back and help out if I can - I mean it would be a waste of all that info floating around my head!!!
But yes - there is opinion, personal experience, and scientific evidence - what is said on this forum is a mix of all of these!!
This link about peri-menopause should explain in simple terms the hormonal background to periods during peri-menopause.....and the hormonal upheaval. Lots of hormones floating about, complicated feedback loops, ovaries beginning to pack up - insufficient viable eggs being produced etc...
https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/magazine/pdf/Article%20-%20Perils%20of%20the%20Perimenopause.pdf
Hopefully the Venlafaxine helps with the mood swings a bit? I presume that after your cancer treatment you are taking extra care with lifestyle (exercise, alcohol etc), diet and weight to minimise any chances of cancer of any sort recurring? I hope you don't mind my saying - as I am sure you will already be doing all you can!
Sorry I can't be of more help...but hoping you feel a lot better very soon.....
Hurdity x
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I presume that after your cancer treatment you are taking extra care with lifestyle (exercise, alcohol etc), diet and weight to minimise any chances of cancer of any sort recurring? I hope you don't mind my saying - as I am sure you will already be doing all you can!
You know Hurdity; Before being diagnosed I was perfect BMI, teetotal for 20 years, don't smoke, am a pescetarian (only eats fish as a meat source) who eats vasts amounts of vegetables, pluses, nuts and healthy home cooked foods. Ok, so my exercise isn't rigorous, but I am very active and do a lot of hill dog-walking, gardening and physical activity in my working roles. Never taken any hormone medications including the pill, gave birth, no genetic link either. There is nothing in my background that would have screamed 'risk factor', it was purely unlucky and if it reccurs it will also be unlucky. I spent a long time, as many women do, feeling guilt about having caused it and analysing their past, so I make a deliberate effort to be honest to not worry too much about life factors and try to live it with as much vigour as I can currently muster lol My oncologist said to just go out and live and not concern yourself about obsessing over diet and so on, so I do that; eat plenty of cake, chocolate and do lots of what I enjoy. :)
I've read the article a few times now Hurdity, I understand all the loops and feedback, this failing and that failing and dropping, eggs and ovaries and so on ....but it doesn't describe the actual point by point hormonal reason for stop start periods. I know what in general is happening to me and the reasons for the irregularity.
Maybe I'm expecting to understand something that I can't, in detail of knowing what is rising, falling and so on differently to usual in this particular period only. I mean - in this case is it - non-egg production, High FSH, Low progesterone or high oestrogen...you get what I mean....the specific relationship between all the variables that produces this outcome, this month. Ignore me, LOL, I know what I mean. I analyse each period, as each one is different to try and figure out the physiological causes that particular month. By applying some logic, to what feels entirely randomly changing I thought it might help. Maybe I just have to accept that I won't know or understand, as I'm never going to understand the complexities of all the reproductive hormones.
Thanks for all your help, I appreciate it.
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Ah yes the 40 day'ish cycle was happening to me last few months. I think it's because they're anovulatory and so no progesterone is produced and so oestrogen just continues to surge.
Yes, that would make sense I guess. So, dangermouse....I'm going to get you using your peri/hormone problem solving now ;) If oestrogen is surging and not enough progesterone as anovulatory, then it takes longer for the progesterone to build up to overtake the oestrogen and trigger menstruation? Is that kind of it? However, both oestrogen and progesterone might be low, with oestrogen being lower than it used to be a few years ago - but still more dominant than progesterone. In that set of circumstances, it could account for lower amount of bleeding to usual (which is what is happening) right, as less oestrogen to build lining ? The stop/start could be the progesterone dipping and rising? Oh I don't know....:o) There are other things here too aren't there, LH and FSH and testosterone, other variables.
Orrrrrr it could be that the whole cycle was slow to get start, as both Oes and Pro were diminished at the start ?
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I think the bleeding patterns you suggest make sense as oestrogen builds the lining and progesterone stops the growth, nourishes it and then releases it (at menstuation or birth). With less progesterone the lining will thicken and cause heavy and more frequent bleeding or spotting, or, when anovulatory, oestrogen will continue to surge and cause longer cycles.
I'd always assumed peri madness was due to dwindling egg supplies making the ovaries push out more oestrogen in a last ditch attempt to fertilise an egg, followed by no eggs left so oestrogen comes down and periods stop.
However... I've since read many different hypotheses from various endocrinologists that suggest it follows consistent anovulatory cycles and that the eggs are still there but the ability to fertilise them in the absence of enough progesterone causes them to shut up shop.
Who knows who is right. The NHS choose the former explanation but they may be guided by the drugs research.
I do wonder about these private fertility companies that freeze eggs, is it all legit and based on strong evidence?
We know the FSH shows high on post menopausal bloods but this could be triggered by any cause of annovulation.
They also don't know what causes hot flushes. Both oestrogen and progesterone can stop them. However, I suspect it's more linked to the thyroid and hyperthalmus and it's very common a week after an anaesthetic.
Hormones are complex with each one having a knock on effect to another. Rather than adding hormones or suppressing with high doses I would think that dealing with the root cause of the imbalance through diet (e.g. raw carrot is good for hypothyroidism) would be the ideal. Where to start though?!!
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However, I suspect it's more linked to the thyroid and hyperthalmus and it's very common a week after an anaesthetic.
Interesting you should say that, as a common anxiety symptom is hot and cold flashes - and it has been proved that anxiety and major stress can affect the thyroid. There is also adrenal fatigue as another factor that can enter into this conversation too. You aren't wrong, its incredibly complex and much seems not known yet about what causes one little variable to have a domino effect on other things.
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I presume that after your cancer treatment you are taking extra care with lifestyle (exercise, alcohol etc), diet and weight to minimise any chances of cancer of any sort recurring? I hope you don't mind my saying - as I am sure you will already be doing all you can!
You know Hurdity; Before being diagnosed I was perfect BMI, teetotal for 20 years, don't smoke, am a pescetarian (only eats fish as a meat source) who eats vasts amounts of vegetables, pluses, nuts and healthy home cooked foods. Ok, so my exercise isn't rigorous, but I am very active and do a lot of hill dog-walking, gardening and physical activity in my working roles. Never taken any hormone medications including the pill, gave birth, no genetic link either. There is nothing in my background that would have screamed 'risk factor', it was purely unlucky and if it reccurs it will also be unlucky. I spent a long time, as many women do, feeling guilt about having caused it and analysing their past, so I make a deliberate effort to be honest to not worry too much about life factors and try to live it with as much vigour as I can currently muster lol My oncologist said to just go out and live and not concern yourself about obsessing over diet and so on, so I do that; eat plenty of cake, chocolate and do lots of what I enjoy. :)
I've read the article a few times now Hurdity, I understand all the loops and feedback, this failing and that failing and dropping, eggs and ovaries and so on ....but it doesn't describe the actual point by point hormonal reason for stop start periods. I know what in general is happening to me and the reasons for the irregularity.
Maybe I'm expecting to understand something that I can't, in detail of knowing what is rising, falling and so on differently to usual in this particular period only. I mean - in this case is it - non-egg production, High FSH, Low progesterone or high oestrogen...you get what I mean....the specific relationship between all the variables that produces this outcome, this month. Ignore me, LOL, I know what I mean. I analyse each period, as each one is different to try and figure out the physiological causes that particular month. By applying some logic, to what feels entirely randomly changing I thought it might help. Maybe I just have to accept that I won't know or understand, as I'm never going to understand the complexities of all the reproductive hormones.
Thanks for all your help, I appreciate it.
Sounds like you and your oncologist have the right attitude following your cancer - mkae this most of your life without worerying too much about the ifs and buts and whys and wherefores - I know I would be the same as you in your position. Like you, I live as healthy a lifestyle now as I possibly can - but you never know what's round the corner and sometimes you can't do anything about it. All I do at least is minimise the chances of things I have control over (diet, exercise or lack of it etc) deciding my fate for me!!
re the hormones I don't think anyone can know what is happening in any particular woman's body in terms of hormones - you cano nly guess at a number of possible explanations.
By this I mean - during peri-menopause there is a lot of irregular bleeding, variable length cycles, heavy and light (or continuous or absent) flow.
In a normal menstrual cycle, the bleeding is expected and normal - and is caused by the fall in progesterone due to the lack of fertilisation of the released egg - progesterone withdrawal bleeding.
Any other type of bleeding is to some extent abnormal bleeding. What often happens during peri-menopause and the anovulatory cycles, as we've discussed - is that the womb lining continues to build up because there is no egg produced. Sometimes when it gets to a certain thickness, it starts to fragment and spontaneously break away - causing bleeding. This is not usually accompanied by typical pms symptoms (because there is no ovulation, no porgesterone rise and fall aand probably no dramatic oestrogen dip).
In addition there is another common type of bleeding which some women get when oestrogen dips suddenly even though ovulation hasn't taken place - and this can happen during peri-mebnopause when lots of follicles start to grow but there is no dominant follicle. All these follicles produce oestrogen and when they fail to develop, oestrogen production falls - which can also sometimes causes bleeding (if the lining has developed sufficiently).
Some of the apparent two week "cycles" may not in fact be true cycles - so do you see how difficult it is to say what is actually happening to you?
I hope this explains a little why it is more complicated but sorry I can't really answer what you want to know!
Hurdity x
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Ah yes the 40 day'ish cycle was happening to me last few months. I think it's because they're anovulatory and so no progesterone is produced and so oestrogen just continues to surge.
Yes, that would make sense I guess. So, dangermouse....I'm going to get you using your peri/hormone problem solving now ;) If oestrogen is surging and not enough progesterone as anovulatory, then it takes longer for the progesterone to build up to overtake the oestrogen and trigger menstruation? Is that kind of it? However, both oestrogen and progesterone might be low, with oestrogen being lower than it used to be a few years ago - but still more dominant than progesterone. In that set of circumstances, it could account for lower amount of bleeding to usual (which is what is happening) right, as less oestrogen to build lining ? The stop/start could be the progesterone dipping and rising? Oh I don't know....:o) There are other things here too aren't there, LH and FSH and testosterone, other variables.
Orrrrrr it could be that the whole cycle was slow to get start, as both Oes and Pro were diminished at the start ?
During anovulatory cycles there is no progesterone to speak of ( not connected with mensturation anyway). Progesterone is only produced in large quantities by the corpus luteum, the empty sac left over after the egg has been released. The corpus luteum produces oestrogen and progesterone until the egg is fertilised and implanted, and the placenta begins to take over (hormone production). So during peri-menopause, if you ovulate, you produce large quantities of progesterone, but if the egg isn't fertilised, the corpus luteum "dies", progesterone (and oestrogen) fall (signalling no pregnancy) and the lining is shed as the menstrual bleed.
Progesterone does not build up as such, at all.
What I'm not clear about is whether the actual corpus luteum produces less progesterone during peri-menopause leading to less efficient clearance of the womb lining, rather than the decrease in progesterone being entirely due to lack of ovulation ie anovulatory cycles.
Carrots are of course very healthy as are all vegetables but hypothyroidism can only be treated with hormones!
Hurdity x
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Wow, thanks Hurdity, that is helpful and kind of gets to more of my queries.....honestly, that has really helped. I will need to re-read it after work to really get it into my scatty (right now) brain. Yes, basically 'nobody can really know' is the bottom line, so I am searching for answers each cycle that I probably won't get as there are too many possibilites based on the general changes (that you have highlighted above). I think I'm just not happy with 'guessing' and 'irregularity' as a personality trait, and that is what I need to wrap my head around. When I'm bemoaning everything different every month, and how I never know what is going to happening/what is happening, my husband says - "but it is predictable, its now predictably irregular and different every time LOL". I'm sorry I've been a bit of a pain over all this - I'm the sort of person who during my treatment wanted to know everything, I'm the sort of person who keeps stopping the dentist to ask questions and have even been known to watch him with a hand-held mirror lol
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Sounds like you and your oncologist have the right attitude following your cancer - mkae this most of your life without worerying too much about the ifs and buts and whys and wherefores - I know I would be the same as you in your position. Like you, I live as healthy a lifestyle now as I possibly can - but you never know what's round the corner and sometimes you can't do anything about it. All I do at least is minimise the chances of things I have control over (diet, exercise or lack of it etc) deciding my fate for me!!
Yep, that all each of us can do isn't it, have a generally healthy lifestyle. I went through the first few months reading on cruciferous vegetables (which I already eat loads of) soya, walnuts LOL (which I do eat a handful of a day) and a huge variety of things. Then I saw others, who were also 'cancer free' but had been diagnosed, spending obsessive amounts of time on researching and trying to control every thing that went in their mouths. Often they were reading rather dubious articles that deemed to 'cure' as well! Every day brings new evidence and theories, and its ever changing, good for you one day in one respect but bad for you in another respect. The bottom line is, as you say, none of us know what is around the corner (could be an out of control bus for example lol), and living is fairly risky and to spend all your time worrying and being upset and trying to control every last footstep is not a great way to live.
I think that's why I'm struggling even more mentally with this late peri stuff (yep, I've plonked myself in that category as mentally it helps me to think its late) as I had relatively good year after treatment ended and this damned low mood and anxiety is ruining living at a good quality - as I want to. Anyhow, nothing is forever is it.....
Ta for 'listening'.
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“Carrots are of course very healthy as are all vegetables but hypothyroidism can only be treated with hormones!
Hurdity xâ€
I'm on a forum where people have used raw carrot to heal their hypoathyroid and come off their meds.
You have to ask the questions ‘why is thyroxine low, what is missing from the body to make adequate thyroxine?'. Perhaps specific nutrients are the answer (packaged in food ideally) which is a much more body-accepting way to rebalance hormones.
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Adding to my own thread here, rather than starting a new one - as its still all 'cycle length' related.
So, when I was looking for reassurance about cycle lengths, bleeding number of days and erratic period related things, I came across a thread where a member had listed her last year of cycles. It was a regular member on here, and I've been looking for the thread and can't find it now - wonder if anyone recognises this ?
I am not coping well here the last few days. My period started on day 40 and I had a stop start period for about 10 days of about the amount of flow I would expect.....now still spotting for the last days. It is really freaking me out, it just won't entirely stop. It literally is a very low amount of blood and then it stops for 24 hours, then more spots. Can this go on for weeks like this...would this be normal at this late peri stage ? My mood is great one day, low another, wash and repeat.
I know the facts about why this is happening, what can causes it etc etc - as Hurdity has provided some helpful input about reasons for bleeding ina post above. I just wondered if someone who has experienced it could provide reassurance, as it helps to know I'm not alone (as you know if you've been following my story kind reader, I'm needing to do this process 'naturally' with no intervention, but its kinda hellish).
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I think the thread you're looking for is ‘cycles suddenly longer'? I've just bumped it for you.
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Thanks Snooooozeeee