Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Blue Kingfisher on April 08, 2018, 03:53:47 PM
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Sorry for the melodramatic title but that's about the best word for how progesterone makes me feel. Im either on too much progesterone or not enough oestrogen. Of course another potential answer to the lovely peri menopause maze is BOTH....cue not knowing which way is up! :o
I've been on 4 pumps oestrogel for one month now (having increased it from 3 pumps). This increase has had a positive effect on lessening my symptoms UNTIL it comes time to taketh Ultrogestan. I'm on 200mg & although it gives me side effects such as drowsiness, nausea, slows my digestion down, slows my thyroid down even more (which is perfect when you have low thyroid like me - not!). But, i can get by, knowing it's potentially helping to protect my uterus, until the 5th dose......
I only take Ultrogestan for 7 days a month vaginally but boy are those last 3 doses hard!! The worst symptom is like severe depression- if I felt like this everyday I would NOT want to carry on I have to say & im normally very upbeat & positive. I'm surprised my husband hasn't thrown me out ;)
I don't know whether to try reducing my progesterone to 100mg for 7 days or increasing the ostrogel (I guess the logic with the latter theory is the Ultrogestan makes me feel so bad BECAUSE my oestrogen levels are too low??
Airing on the side of caution, I'm thinking reduction of Ultrogestan seems the logical choice whilst I try and navigate through this mayhem. I know there are a lot of ladies who quite rightly will warn of protecting the uterus but trust me, I cannot take another 200mg for 7 days at this point. It reminds me of the time my GP put me on the progesterone only pill years ago & I had to come off it as it made me feel suicidal!
I'm worried about dropping to 100mg though in case for some reason it makes me feel even worse! I'm lacking logic as I'm in a revolting progesterone daze :-\
Peri-menopausal mayhem is not helpful is it when you have a job to keep, a family etc to look after - I'll look back & laugh right?!? ;)
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OH Blue Kingfisher, I don't have the answer I'm afraid but I just wanted to say I know exactly how you are feeling and I hope someone comes along with the magic answer, I have been struggling for 5 years now in peri, I'm beginning to think it will never end, and I know how you feel as I'm also struggling to keep a full time job and my hubby thinks I'm becoming very moody, he says he never knows which one of me he is going to get, just cant help snapping at him!!!!!! Good luck, let me know how you get on
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Thank you so much for the replies, it makes you feel less desperate & a desperate case just to know you're not alone!
Robotwars - I also wonder when all this pesky peri business will end....oh hang on....this will probably be a 'careful what you wish for' type thing what with the big M (menopause proper) following on its heals...no?! I also wish you lots of luck & suitably stable periods when you don't feel like biting your husbands head off - I often physically restrain myself from letting out a pent up barrage of abuse on regular occasions ;)
Stellajane - apparently I have an 'absorption' issue when it comes to the oestrogel (whatever!) so although 4 pumps may sound high it doesn't equate to high in my blood tests (apparently). I feel relieved that you think reducing to 100mg is worth trying as the idea of cutting the tranquilising dose in half fills me with glee! I feel suffocated by the stuff at the moment! I also need to see the doc, you are quite right but I want to see him when I know how I've responded to a lower progesterone dose. I wasn't aware there were different types of progesterone so that's definitely also worth looking into if the dosing experiments don't work. :-\
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Hi Bluefisher
I was told by Proff Studd 100 Utergeston will do the trick for 7 days. For me I find 5mg Northisterone for 7 days does the trick plus its stronger.....
Hope the above helps Wxx
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Thank you Warwick, I presume Notrthisterone is a type of progesterone? Sorry to be thick, but it's thrown me a bit that 5mg of the brand you are using is stronger than 100mg of Ultrogesten? Or am I getting mcg mixed up with mg? :-\
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Blue Kingfisher, why not try 100mg Utrogestan vaginally for 7 days and then have a uterine scan after a few months to make sure it's working properly. Most women are fine on that dose but it is sensible to make sure. There's no point in suffering unnecessarily and the only option is to find lowest dose that works for you.
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Hi Bluefisher
A lot of ladies do have problems with Northisterone (PMT) symptoms. For me I don't get any symptoms until day 3 or 4 so can just about cope. More importantly I av a really good 5 day bleed. I seem to have more side effects with Utrogestan such as increase in sweats feel a little agitatedand anxious. Also bleed is much lighter.
Warwick x
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Hi Blue Kingfisher
The different doses of progestogens used in HRT are not comparable. Progesterone (Utrogestan) needs to be taken in a very high amount because it is very unstable in the body and breaks down quickly - this is to ensure that sufficient gets to the uterus where it is needed. The different progestogens last for differing times in the body and also differ in their effectiveness in protecting the uterus. Those of us who want to take the bioidentical progesterone ie the utrogestan have to put up with the side effects - if we can cope with them but really problematic for those who can't.
The other types are listed here:
https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/to_progestogens.php
Basically Provera or Mirena are the only choices although as warwick says some gynaes will prescribe norethisterone separately.
If you carry on with utrogestan then of course this needs to be individualised to your circumstances, but yes as you rightly point out it is important to protect your womb so changes in your regime should be done under medical supervision.
Do let usknow how you get on and what you decide :)
Hurdity x
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Stellajane, spot on, if Professor Studd's 100mg 7 day Utrogestan regime was putting thousands of womens' lives at risk we would be hearing about it on here and in the press. I know some women will not get on with it and will need a higher dose of progesterone but that should not mean that everyone is forced to take a high dose that is ruining their quality of life.
I take an even lower dose but scans confirm it is enough for me.
I would argue that it is safer to use a low dose of progesterone and have the benefit of regular uterine scans that will detect other gynaecological conditions too.
A former MM member told me that the NHS are trialling 5 days of progesterone for severely progesterone intolerant women but I don't have any details.
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Thanks for all the replies everyone! I will trial 100mg Utrogestan for 7 days & let you know how I get on.
A realisation is beginning to dawn on me that I might also be on too high a dose of oestrogen as well.... I was put on the higher dose of progesterone to try & stop mid cycle bleeding & it successfully did that. I continued to have negative symptoms & at the time it was felt (due to my Oestrogen bloods)that it was due to low oestrogen (as of low gel absorption). I was on 5 pumps of oestrogel daily at that point with permission to go up to 6 or even 7 pumps daily if I felt it was necessary.....
I started to feel very over medicated so reduced my dose gradually back to 3 pumps but this didn't feel enough so I increased to 4 pumps this has improved my symptoms from 3 pumps but I wonder if it's the progesterone I should have been REDUCING rather than increasing the oestrogel?!
Certainly, when it comes towards the end of the month I feel desperate to start the progesterone & initially it helps but then it all becomes too much! There seems to be a possible picture here & im now wondering (blood tests aside) if I'm just on too much of everything!!? :-\
I guess the sensible thing to do would be to keep the oestrogel at 4 pumps & see how that feels with 100mg progesterone but then if I feel bad or worse.....how will I know if it's the progesterone that's too low or the oestrogen too high?? I find this whole thing very confusing & im not very good at listening to my body & knowing what to do! :(
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Hi Stellajane,
I think I feel desperate to start progesterone because my oestrogen levels build up to be too high. Well that's my latest theory anyway. So I get an initial relief from the progesterone as it helps to balance things out a bit but then things quickly start to tip the other way & the progesterone becomes suffocating by the 5th dose. I am 49 & péri so I think my own hormones are also throwing spanner's into the works. I was just wondering this.....if I was on too high a dose of everything....it would perhaps explain why I was sea-sawing from one scenario to another.
Does that make anymore sense or does it just not work like that? I will see Dr Savvas again but not until I know how I react to the reduced 100mg of progesterone as I think I will get more value out of the consultation & he will be better placed to advise me if that makes sense?
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I forgot to say, I do generally feel better on the oestrogen only days except for when I have my period (but wonder if that's a hang over from the high dose of progesterone I have just stopped).
I then feel much better for the rest of the month but then start to feel rough when I get towards the end of the month. Bingo! I see why what I've said doesn't make sense....perhaps I just feel rough at that point because actually my progesterone levels are highest naturally at that point....
No idea why the progesterone initially makes me feel better though & in fact it didn't recently (I could only tolerate it better for the first few days). I think I'm getting confused from when I was on a mega dose of oestrogel (6/7 pumps daily).
The problem is, I had an implant (oestrogen & Testim) & the oestrogen failed. Apparently this is rare but it didn't disperse & I was in a very bad space for some weeks until my blood tests proved my oestrogen had dramatically dropped & it hadn't worked. Since then I've been trying to claw my way back to some kind of stability, have lost confidence a bit in doctor recommendations & have been trying to work it all out on my own. :'(
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Blue kingfisher, can't help re utrogestan but I know where your coming from with the “needing the progesterone†even though I'm intolerant to progesterones too. I felt better initially when trialling sequi's on day 1-5 ish then it would hit me and I couldn't wait to get off it! Really bizarre but they do say progesterone is a feel good drug for most. The withdrawal and coming off the progesterone was horrible. Conti progesterone presented too many side effects so I'm in Mirena and oestrogel 4 pumps at present. Like you I'm never sure if I'm in too high it too low dose oestrogel. It's trial and error but that's the beauty of oestrogel you can change to suit.
Interestingly for other comments re professor Studd, there is a lady on a menopause face book group where I'm s member who is really skating prof Studd and his prog/oestrogen methods ststing that she's getting so many women ex patients of his that she's having to sort out and that he has prescription pre written and one type fits all! She has her own menopause clinic. She also stated that all women should be in conti utrogestan every day of the month!! Suggested I would need a hysterectomy if I was progesterone intolerant and couldn't take conti utrogestan !! 😱
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thank you so much for your replies everyone.
Optimist, it's reassuring to hear from someone else that has an on & off relationship with progesterone (albeit very short lived!). It's all very confusing & you can draw different conclusions each month (depending on how your body reacted)! Also good to know there is someone else on 4 doses of oestrogel as most people I've come across recently seem to be on less than that - makes me also feel less of a freak ;)
Hopefully reducing my progesterone to 100mg for 7 days will improve things & I will report back when I know!
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Stellajane, I certainly didn't respect her slating another professional as one size certainly doesn't fit all. She came over as quite opinionated which in my book as a health professional also is really quite judgemental and biased. She appeared to be leading the group which is quite worrying as that's not tailoring individual health needs and could put some women off seeking the correct advice. That's why I love this forum as the advice is from fellow menopause “sufferers†keeping it real for (especially) newcomers to this site and the medical advice is evidence based and non biased.
Bluekingfisher keep us posted with updates of how your doing in 7 days if 100mg.
I'm currently on Day 3 of a constant headache and wondering if it's further hrt side effects! Oh the joys of being a woman!! X
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Not sure if this helps but when I wasn't taking my progesterone continuously (and thought breaks were better) I would feel dreadful for the first week of stopping, then a bit better the next week and then amazing for the next 2 weeks and then awful again, so would go back on it. This sounds a bit like your pattern!
I figured out that when you first start it you feel good, then after a few days it can make me feel a bit ramped up (my endocrinologist told me it was dormant oestrogen receptors becoming active again - which may not apply to you if you take oestrogen?). Then when I stopped it I would get withdrawal on top of all the active oestrogen receptors. Then after 2 weeks, the receptors would dumb back down and I would be full up with the progesterone (as it builds up and hangs about for a while) without all the ramping up.
Now I just take continuously I've got over the ramping up and my oestrogen surges are much better controlled, so anxiety, burning hot skin and migraines have gone. It's the first time I've not felt sick for 2 months straight!
Re. cancer, I thought that progesterone doesn't directly cause cancer as even the synthetic Norethisterone is used to treat it and that the small risk was about oestrogen being controlled (dominated) enough by progesterone to keep cancer at bay vs those who take oestrogen only HRT because they don't have to worry about the lining building up. If it was about breast cancer though I don't know but hope it's not a risk as I'm taking it because my crazy oestrogen surges caused liver growths and didn't want any breast issues too.
I remember the wording of those studies being really unclear though!
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Blue Kingfisher, I know exactly where you are coming from on this. My unsubstantiated theory is that although you can't tolerant high doses of Utrogestan, once your womb lining builds up and needs to shed, your body is telling you it needs some progesterone to help it on its way but here's the crux of the problem, not as much progesterone as you are taking. This is why you initially feel better after the first few capsules of Utrogestan before you reach your tipping point.
I have tried to do a long cycle many times but when my womb lining builds up I get slightly dizzy and then get a breakthrough bleed. In an ideal world the best solution would be to take a small amount of Utrogestan to help the bleed along and then have a scan to make sure it has cleared properly but I realise that is not easy.
I am currently taking Utrogestan until I get to my personal tipping point which is (luckily) enough to give me adequate womb lining clearance. That said, I am severely progesterone intolerant and have regular scans via my gynaecologist to confirm that everything is OK.