Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: jorainbow on April 07, 2018, 10:52:55 AM
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Having suffered with anxiety very much related to hormones (PMT, PND and now in peri) I am interested in this subject and what helps. There is a lot of thinking out there with anxiety gurus springing up and reworking what has essentially been around for decades (and usually at great cost!) but I recently joined a group out of curiosity and was gobsmacked that they argue that anxiety at perimenopause is not caused by hormones but purely by our thoughts. Whilst I agree that positive thinking etc helps anxiety, I'd be interested in others' opinions.
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I do agree with thought processes to an extent. However how do you explained waking up with crippling anxiety, before you have had chance to think?
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I totally agree with you!
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I totally disagree with this. When the hormonal anxiety first hit in peri there was literally ZERO in my life to create my anxiety. Just nothing.
Same when I had PND. Everything in my life had been coming up roses before the birth. I was a very happy newly wed, really looking forward to being a Mum and we'd just moved into our dream home. But within 48 hours of our daughter being born I knew there was something very wrong. I felt like I was sinking into a bottomless black pit and it was terrifying.
It was a chemical/hormonal reaction. Nothing else.
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Thanks Gypsy Rose Lee - I am in total agreement with you. I actually found the podcast very patronising and quite belittling to women's very real problems with hormones.
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They couldn't be more wrong. I have faced this argument with numerous health officials and after seeing both a psychiatrist and psychologist they both agreed, within one meeting, that it was not anxiety from my thought processes but hormonal. After these consultations I was prescribed pregabalin which has been an absolute life saver for me. It is non addictive and can be taken long term. I find it works very specifically at the anxiety (unlike SSRIs) and is brilliant at targetting that morning adrenaline rush the menopause brings for some of us.
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Thank you aspie. Im glad you found something that helps too 😊
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I agree with everybody else - this is absolute patronising rubbish. I can pinpoint when my anxiety started - it was a reaction to utrogestan which began out of the blue the morning after I started taking it, was there on waking so no time for thought processes etc. If it was simply about thought processes it should respond to treatments like CBT, mindfulness, relaxation techniques etc. and mine simply does not - it comes and goes when it wants to and there's absolutely nothing I can do about it, like a switch being turned on in the brain.
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I suspect we'll all be in agreement with this one!
Physical anxiety from hormonal imbalance, be it PND, perimenopause, menopause or infections is very real and cannot be talked down.
We can, of course, make it worse with panicking, worst case scenario, health anxiety etc. and I do have a fellow hypnotherapist who does work on manipulating the actual hormones but it's not thought driven. This is one of the reasons it's so frightening because it's so out of place with how we are feeling at the time.
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As someone who had my first panic attack at the age of 3 and was diagnosed as anorexic at the age of 5 :o and who had several psychologists tell me in the 1990s that I had to have a thought pattern in order to trigger a panic attack, well nope actually!!!! What ever happened at birth triggered a phobia which has controlled my Life :'( until recent years .
There's a lot to learn about the brain. I admire the whole system of digestions, the various triggers both internal and external but no amount of therapy helped my over-come the physicality of the phobia and panic attacks. I know why panic happens: the fight/flight response. But because my response was triggered so early, there is no way that my brain and gut can over-ride what happens. Oh how I wish .......
So medication has been my route to survival plus a loving husband and Very Good GP. Hormones. Well, the evenings prior to a period starting I would sob bitterly, even if a bleed wasn't due. Next morning, hey presto! In later years, probably mid-30s onwards, I also had hormonal input in a similar way, 10 mins. B4 a bleed began I would HAVE to rush to the loo immediately, even if a period wasn't due. Which meant no holidays, no journeys, no plans around 'that time'. Which probably left a week when I knew it might be safe to go out and about >:(
We are so interconnected with our who physicality. I had bad pre menstrual syndrome again in my 30s, NAPS advised the 3 hourly eating habit to stop the anxiety surges due to the body being hungry a habit I continue to this day.
When I was very ill with depression I would wake with deep, pre-hensile fear - not related to hormones at all but I was ill ........ I would leap out of bed, get dressed and then sit for hours, staring at a wall, fearful. I hardly dared move in case it made me feel worse. I was unable to eat, in case it made me feel worse :'(
What was the question again, sorry, I meandered :D
Of course, hormone cortisol, the waking hormone, can cause immediate anxiety ........ but that's a different type of hormone presumably?
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Can I ask a stupid question, but what do we mean by anxiety? The word seems to be used in a number of different contexts. I tend to associate it to fear of something specific (like health anxiety or talking in public etc...) but recently, I am starting to think that anxiety can just be an extension of stress from a chronic perspective.
I never considered myself suffering from anxiety, but what I've started to suffer from more and more often since starting peri is worrying, in a fearful way but in a constant need to overthink things, analyse situations, weight decisions, consider consequences, tell myself that I won't cope with this or that. I go to sleep planning things for tomorrow, wake up immediately thinking of my day ahead, and I know that my brain remains as atuned at night (hence very little deep sleep).
My GP says that I suffer from Chronic Anxiety and that is the reason why I'm suffering from neurological symptoms and feel exhausted all the time. On hrt for 6 weeks now and no obvious sign of this getting better, although I think I might notice a bit of improvement the day after I change the patch.
I have so far found that the only thing that seem to help me a little bit is to go for a 1/2 hour walk on the beach where all I -try- to focus on is the sound of the waves. I really hope hrt will kick in but I'm wondering if it works best for reliving anxiety that it is trigger specific.
Can I ask, has anyone tried betablockers for physical issues relating to anxiety and has it helped and if so how?
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Anxiety is a natural reaction to possible situations that we are not familiar with. Exams.. Wedding nerves. Prior to an interview, driving test, hospital admission. Anxiety in the true sense is the fight/flight response. The blood is transferred to the limbs that allow us to fight or run away. Which means that the digestion process stops in order to divert blood supply. After the threat has gone one may feel weak in the limbs, nauseous and short of breath.
OK so it's natural. But it is so physical for me that it transfers into full blown panic attack. (My first at age 3 :'(). Intense feeling of sickness. Thighs go weak. Calves go weak. Need to sit down. Light headed. Dry mouth. Which is where the emergency tablet comes in as it stops the sickness and eases other symptoms.
Depression comes in several forms. Clinical/situational is where people are in situations that they are unable to alter so depression starts. There is also organic which is when the brain doesn't get enough good chemical to function properly, I often forget it's an organ that needs support. I have both and there is a subtle difference in symptoms but many 'experts' don't recognise them; they tend to lump depression as one problem :cuss:
I have learned not to say 'yes' to anything in the evenings as I am a different person. I wake in the morning sometimes dreading the day and as my commitments are done, I feel better so that by evening I could take on the WORLD! NOPE!
I have taken beta-blockas since 2002. They ease the anxiety surges overnight so I take my dose at bed time. It's what they are designed for ;-). Nothing however works instantly other than a Valium-type drug, GPs are reluctant to prescribe many due to the possibility of addiction.
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If you are someone who can manage to live "in the moment" all the time then you are lucky indeed.
That is so true! It's hard to do though. I am where I am a lot due to having planned ahead and invested, so it's hard to let go and embrace a 'what will be will be' attitude.
The difference is that I used to cope fine with the pressure, going on adrenalin and then getting a rush of endorphins when things went well, but nowadays, I feel totally depleted of any adrenalin and am just left with physical neurological symptoms and exhaustion!!
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What great posts ladies I think most of us can relate to this in some way and your explanation or analogy of this has been really interesting to read,we are not all rockets scientists so I love the way we can share information here in a positive way and in layman's terms,thanks so much xx
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Hello ladies.
An excellent thread and I agree with all that has been said. In my experience the anxiety, over-thinking, the dreads and a sense of unease are created by hormonal changes and these have physical and emotional consequences. I've read that oestrogen is the tranquilising hormone and at menopause we are dealing with oestrogen withdrawal. Sure feels that way at times!
Wishing you all well ladies and take care.
K.
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Brilliant thread- I agree, how do you define anxiety?
For me, if I'm in my head, talking to myself, analysing, ruminating, thinking, then I'm anxious.
If I'm in my life and not thinking, then I'm not anxious.
My GP told me I had chronic anxiety too - and for me, it was overthinking, all the time.
I started with a health anxiety and my anxiety progressed and Progressed. Didn't have any of this until my periods started going awry, so for me the cause has been menopause.
However once anxiety is in your head, it's quite hard to stop the cycle.
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Totally agree MIS71MUM, mine came on suddenly four years ago after I stopped HRT suddenly. It has since waxed and waned both on and off HRT as I think it has now progressded to become a learned response to any slight problem or symptom.
When it lifts and i'm Normal again I always think it's gone for good, but it lurks, waiting to strike when I'm low or tired.
So I think it was hormonal at the start, but is now a thing in its own right.
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Also regarding the thought process, and positive thinking, etc?
But anxiety for me gave me automatic negative thoughts...what can Anyone do about those? You can't turn those into positives as you'd be constantly thinking and that's exhausting!
Is that just me or anyone else agree?
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Agree again! I want an off switch for my mind!
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Rebel2 - I often used to think that, if only if could press the off switch!
I'm much better now, but I have to work at it. There's always a thought there waiting to jump in and pounce. Luckily now I can recognise it and let my mind offer up thought after thought! Never thought that I'd have to reason with my own mind to get some peace! Xx
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My anxiety isn't connected to worrying. It's more a generalised feeling of dread + despair. I essentially feel very frightened, and like I've just been given some dreadful news. I tense up and am scared to be on my own. My face and voice become expressionless and I have a tightening sensation in my throat. I get random muscle twitches and a strong pins and needles sensation running down the backs of my legs.
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Yes GRL, that's familiar - the feeling of dread and despair, like you know something's badly wrong but you can't say what it is. Feeling unsafe all the time. At the moment my morning anxiety leaves me sobbing for anything from 15 mins to several hours, as if i've just been given some dreadful news, but I have no idea what it is. My research leads me to believe that this is more about testosterone deficiency than estrogen, but on the whole it just seems to be one big horrible mystery.
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OMG what a refreshing thread. So this desperation to 'switch off the brain' is common and whether caused by or not, certainly linked to the hormones. This is so reassuring.
What made it difficult for me is that I was in a extremely stressful job (ie. promoted but my role not replaced so for months had to do both in a difficult environment) so I put all my symptoms down to stress specific to my working condition, especially as I wasn't experiencing the typical symptoms of peri, ie. no night sweat, hot flushes, vaginal dryness or even depression/anger bursts. I thought the solution was just to change job, but unfortunately, although less stressful, I'm still stuck in this inability to switch off the brain, so still struggle every day.
At least knowing that it is common and indeed related to peri helps in accepting myself as I am and I think this is key to being able to cope with it.
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Fingers crossed- I don't get the dread and despair anymore. I do remember crying for hours in total despair but had no idea why!
Also the fear of being alone was awful - I was babysat by my parents for months when it first struck.
I think the thing with anxiety is that it has so many symptoms. Once the cycle starts it's hard to break and it can truly take over every aspect of your life.
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I agree it takes over your life. I can just about handle the symptom less variety but when it attacks my body it exacerbates the cycle hugely and then becomes very difficult to break.
I have altered every aspect of my life in an effort to cope, no caffeine, very little alcohol, healthy eating, yoga, running. But to no avail. However, I refuse to give in and still work /socialise as being out and distracted is often my only cure. I take HRT but only 1mg of oestrogen, but not sure that does anything anymore.
Anxiety is like drugs for me, the worse it gets the more my mind creates next time!
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I was interested to see racjen's comment about testosterone deficiency, as after a couple of months on Testogel my morning anxiety was much improved. I had been using Oestrogel for a few months, but this only seemed to deal with physical symptoms.
JP x
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Me too. Somebody mentioned it in a post a few weeks ago too. I'm hoping I will be prescribed testosterone at my next appointment 🤞🏻
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Physical anxiety is adrenaline/cortisol(?) rushing through your brain and it can be triggered by infection, hormonal imbalance and anxious thoughts. The result is the same though regardless of the source!
Infections and hormonal imbalance will send an emergency signal to the brain to correct the trauma and, thus, if your imbalance is strong, and particular volatile like in perimenopause, you will have a strong reaction.
The difference between anxiety and depression was well explained earlier about the past and the future. When we are anxious we are desperately trying to control a situation and stop something bad happening, hence all the adrenaline pushing us to act - the fight or flight response. Once we feel we can no longer do anything about the situation we mentally ‘give in' and the adrenaline plummets and we feel numb and stuck.
Also if anxiety goes on for long enough without resolution, the brain will automatically trigger a depression to bring the heart rate down and protect the person from imploding with stress!
When anxiety is thought driven, for those who mentioned it here, yes it is hard work to try to change your old habits of negative thinking as habits come from the subconscious and are formed to make our lives easier, so will always be your default until you change your habits - very much like phobias and sleep patterns.
It's not about changing negative thoughts to positive thoughts as these are just as exaggerated and untrue. It's about changing them to rational thoughts, as in instead of “I can't stand it, I'm probably having a heart attack†or the positive exaggerated “I don't care, I'm happy†you say “I can stand it (as I actually have been), I'm not sure what is happening but I'll get checked by the doctor and find out what needs to be done, otherwise it will mean I'm fine and so no point in worrying as I don't have the facts.†Or a simple “things will work outâ€.
The more you consciously override your irrational thoughts with rational ones they eventually will become your new habit and you'll naturally be calm. You do have to put the work in first though which is one of the reasons clients don't always want CBT! It's one of the therapies that are completely in your control though and can be self taught in the same way your thought-driven anxiety was self taught!
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My anxiety is background this morning due to events this week :'( ........ so though I am aware of the trigger and have tried to rationalise, it ain't shifting :-\
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Horrible, I know the feeling - you have my sympathies and lots of hugs xxx
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dangermouse, all what you say make a lot of sense and indeed, is the basis for mindfulness. My issue is that my thoughts are not irrational or negative as such, they just won't stop firing. Even when I try mindfulness, I find (like many) that instead of concentrating on what's around me, getting my senses to take over, I can't help but mentally talking myself through what my senses are sensing!! The more I concentrate to stop it, the more I find myself thinking! I have found that walking along the beach listening to the waves crashing is the only thing that allows me to switch off after about 15 minutes for a few seconds at a time.
Indeed, rationalising our thoughts is hard but what's harder is making it happen. I find CBT to be amazing when dealing with fear and phobias, but I haven't found it working to shift anxiety driving by overthinking.
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Adrenaline and cortisol are different hormones by the way ;), the latter is the wake up hormone first thing.
B4 going into a shop I work from top to bottom to make sure that nothing in my bones, muscles etc. feel ill :-\ ........
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Can I ask a stupid question, but what do we mean by anxiety? The word seems to be used in a number of different contexts. I tend to associate it to fear of something specific (like health anxiety or talking in public etc...) but recently, I am starting to think that anxiety can just be an extension of stress from a chronic perspective.
I never considered myself suffering from anxiety, but what I've started to suffer from more and more often since starting peri is worrying, in a fearful way but in a constant need to overthink things, analyse situations, weight decisions, consider consequences, tell myself that I won't cope with this or that. I go to sleep planning things for tomorrow, wake up immediately thinking of my day ahead, and I know that my brain remains as atuned at night (hence very little deep sleep).
My GP says that I suffer from Chronic Anxiety and that is the reason why I'm suffering from neurological symptoms and feel exhausted all the time. On hrt for 6 weeks now and no obvious sign of this getting better, although I think I might notice a bit of improvement the day after I change the patch.
I have so far found that the only thing that seem to help me a little bit is to go for a 1/2 hour walk on the beach where all I -try- to focus on is the sound of the waves. I really hope hrt will kick in but I'm wondering if it works best for reliving anxiety that it is trigger specific.
Can I ask, has anyone tried betablockers for physical issues relating to anxiety and has it helped and if so how?
I totally understand where you're coming from Letmein. Aside from the difference between anxiety and depression - I am sure there is a distinction between anxiety and excess worrying that you point out.
I am, always have been and always will be, a natural worrier in the way that you describe ( although now retired I don't have quite so much to worry about that causes me lack of sleep although I do sometimes with various life situations and even going on holiday (day after tomorrow!). Also guilty of over-thinking. However do I or have I ever "suffer(ed)" from anxiety? No and I wouldn't dream of giving myself such a label personally.
The frightening emotions that racjen and GypsyRoseLee describe - eg of being scared, unable to cope with situations, crying - sound to me exactly as I would imagine anxiety to be, such that you would need to visit a doctor and get treatment - whether it be medication, hormones, mental strategies etc. I think being a worrier and getting over-stressed by life circumstances does not mean you suffer from anxiety as some GPs seem to want to label women with, and therefore be treated with ADs. I would suggest the "worriers" are far better off being given mental strategies (and probably some hormones!) in order to cope ....
I also would never want to take beta-blockers unless I had a heart problem. As a side effect they lower blood pressure (mine is already often low) and I have read it can be difficult to come off them?
Hurdity x
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Why not take what the body requires? Without my regime I wouldn't be here. Anxiety 4 me strikes, hard. Floors me at times. Threatens my sanity. I can worry for England too ::) but there are agencies and other help that can help sort the worries. I can worry incidentally which can turn into anxiety ..........
Beta-blockas are designed to lower BP and were found that they ease anxiety as a 'side effect' which is why professional sports people are not allowed to take them. I was given them to help anxiety and it keeps my BP low but not low enough to feel dizzy on standing. That would require adjustment.
I was started on 80mg for 4 weeks followed by 40mg at night. After several years I developed back-ground headaches so halved the 40mg, one at day and one at night. 6 months ago the headaches came back so now I take 20mg at night. [Propranolol].
It has been a hard slog at times. As part of the recommendations my GP asks me about every 18 months how I would feel if I was told to stop my medication ......... he is ticking boxes so has to ask but his hard work and my DH's loyalty would have been wasted :'(.
Do remember that if 1 gets through a health situation then the medication can be stopped. Similarly if 1 finds that the particular choice doesn't help then it can be stopped with advice.
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When I was really bad when oestrogen started surging I was prescribed beta blockers when a hospital doc and a GP couldn't get my heart rate down, after having done an ecg to know my heart was ok. The hospital doc was initially confused as they assumed I was panicking but after talking to me and seeing how calm I was they said it was purely physical and that a beta blocker would lower adrenaline, whereas the Diazepam I'd been given (which made me worse) was better for neurosis. I don't take anymore but it did the trick in calming the surging (you could actually see the waves swirling up my body which frightened the ultrasound nurse... but that's another story!) and it didn't lower my already low bp too much.
If you go to a GP for anxiety, worry, OCD etc. there's a 6-9 month waiting list for talking therapies so they tend to prescribe ADs if the patient wishes to try them. As CLKD knows, they can be just what someone needs also. Seeking help for any level of anxiety should be done when it's affecting your day to day life but most people would do well to learn how your thoughts affect your feelings and behaviours, I personally think it should be taught at school and then no one would over worry! If you think about it over worrying is stating untrue facts, so essentially lying to yourself, so why would you do that? Over-preparation is pointless as if something went wrong you'd then have the facts and would deal with it more smoothly because you hadn't wrung yourself dry with the earlier worst case scenarios.
When my clients say ‘what if, this and what if that?!!' I say ‘what if you win the lottery?!!'. Anything could happen, good or bad, just get on with your life, still be responsible but deal with what you need to at the time you have the facts.
Letmein - I've never studied mindfulness for myself or my practice and am not clear if it's distraction or, if its rational indulging in the fear, then that would be similar to Rational Emotive Behavioural Therapy (REBT) which I practice and is very simple and would not allow for over thinking as you are so focused on the rational sentences you repeat to yourself. Windy Dryden has a great work book on it where you become your own therapist.
Next time your mind is running off with itself, write down what your thoughts are, what's the worst thing about what you're fearing, what's that one thing that if you could take that away things would be ok? That will give you the magic clue to your underlying belief(s) that are causing you to feel so out of control.
Good luck!
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What's the worst that could happen, well 4 me it was that the panic would get worse and kill me :-\. Logic goes out the window.
It is dreadful that sufferers have to wait so long for treatments in the UK. Which is where ADs etc. can help. As can yoga, relaxation therapy, swimming ........ brisk walking. Some find knitting soothing but would never work for me ::).
Many years ago the waiting list was 18 months at least, when the NHS rang to ask if I still wanted the appt. I said yes. The therapist admitted at the 2nd appt. that I know more about anxiety than she did :-\. That was int he 1990s so nowt has improved. Mental Health Service has always been way down there, along with geriatric care.
4 me the anxiety is first followed by the brain joining in. I tried deep breathing this morning, don't know if it worked but I didn't get any worse.
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Yours may be more deep-seated as you've said you've had it since birth CLKD.
However... if I thought “that the panic would get worse and kill meâ€, I would feel extremely anxious. I would, thus, instead tell myself that “even if the panic got worse, it wouldn't kill me†and that would lower my anxiety. That is true whereas the first one is a lie. Part of the therapy though is for you to believe the rational statements over the irrational, then you recite them knowing they're true, otherwise they're just words.
Another one to show you the difference once you believe it, might be “that the panic would get worse and aliens would charge into my home and kill meâ€. You know that's silly so it can't affect you and thats how you feel about your original thoughts once you see through them.
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You make an interesting point Hurdity. By nature, I am not a worrier at all and am known for having a very chilled outlook on life in general. So for my part, I know when I 'dip' it's purely an internal chemically driven imbalance, and nothing to do with what's going on in my life. It does make me feel totally helpless if I'm honest.
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That's such sensible advice dangermouse. When I 'dip' my worst fear is that I will always feel this wretched and frightened and unable to cope for the rest of my life. Except the rest of my life wouldn't be that long because the feelings are so awful that I would just end it all.
It doesn't matter that I can look back in my diary and see in black & white that I have had numerous 'dips' and they never last more than 7-10 days. Each time I 'dip' I am so fearful that THIS time will be different and it will never go away :'(
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GRL - On the surface you may think that your thoughts when you have your dip could happen. However, the evidence all points to the opposite:
So “I will always feel this wretched and frightened and unable to cope for the rest of my life, and will therefore have to end it all†is all based on a lie that when you've felt so wretched and frightened its never changed.
The true statement would be “I will sometimes feel this wretched and frightened and unable to cope, but it always changes and I do always cope and so I'd never have to end it allâ€.
Even if you're locked into an anxious state at the time, if you focus on the true statement you may not be able to bring your physical hormone driven anxiety down, but you can grab back some control so that you can then move on more easily with your day until it all passes again.
Breathing out through your open mouth really slowly (and back in just through your nose) as if you're trying to empty all your breath can also relax your body at the same time.
It's all about ‘doing something specific instead of' to replace and reprogramme as opposed to distraction which isn't as powerful and isn't dealing with the actual cause.
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Like GRL I believe the anxiety I suffer from is purely chemically driven - it has nothing to do with thoughts whatsoever, and no amount of talking therapies of any kind, or relaxation methods, have made a dent in it. It should have a different name to distinguish it from the more cognitive, worrying kind of anxiety - this is a more primitive thing, I'd call it fear or dread, not anxiety. I'm not a worrier, I never have been; I can deliberately turn off worrying thoughts when they start up with deliberate rationalising. My fear and dread are something else entirely, and I've had the brief, frustrating experience of having them turned off magically by testosterone for a few days, and it then stopping working for no reason anyone can fathom. Also my fear and dread disappear in the evening and I feel like a different person - don't believe there could be that much difference if it was about thought processes and not just the pattern of hormone production. So I know this is a physical thing.
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Hurdity, you describe how I feel perfectly and I totally agree with you, I've never -until now- considered it to be Anxiety. It really is more stress. Saying that, the outcome is not much different. It impacts on the rest of our bodies, destroy sleeps, and leaves us totally exhausted.
The hospital doc was initially confused as they assumed I was panicking but after talking to me and seeing how calm I was they said it was purely physical and that a beta blocker would lower adrenaline, whereas the Diazepam I'd been given (which made me worse) was better for neurosis. I don't take anymore but it did the trick in calming the surging (you could actually see the waves swirling up my body which frightened the ultrasound nurse... but that's another story!) and it didn't lower my already low bp too much.
This is very interesting thank you. Like you, I was prescribed Diazepam when I was at my worse, but I didn't like it either. It works wonder making me feel sleepy but even then I don't have a better quality sleep, the unconscious is still doing its business. It's temporary relief, which although welcome at times, doesn't solve the issue at all. My BP is good, my resting heart rate very low though (under 55). The miracle drug I'm looking for really is the one that will help me relax, mentally, but if not at least physically.
My issues are really not with negative thoughts though. I'm actually a very problem solving orientated person. My issue is control and struggling to let go. I trust my actions rather than fate. I would have thought that at this stage of my life I would finally be able to start relaxing but no. My issues are definitely linked to work but not working is not an option (still some years to go before retirement!). The 'medicine' for people like me is supposed to be Mindfulness, ie. meditation. Anyone tried it with success?
Hurdity, I've heard that this does get better after retirement but hope once you've reached your holiday destination, you really get to let go and enjoy the true meaning of relaxation!
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Just to add racjen, although I agree that the anxiety you seem to experience is different to the over worrying type, I do think both can be fueled by hormones and similarly, there are times of the day when I feel much better than others. In many ways, my life is significantly less stressful than it's been at specific times of my life, yet I find myself much more cognitively alert than I've ever been. It does feel like I am constantly hit my adrenalin. I can just about cope with it during the day, but curse it at night. The worse is that I know within a few minutes of going to sleep how my night is going to go. If I fall asleep easily, I have a chance, but if I don't, even though I know I always do end up falling asleep within an hour or two, I know my sleep will be disturbed with next to no deep sleep and I will wake up feeling like I have been partying all night!
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I think it is a mixture of both. I know for sure that my thoughts have been affecting the health issue I have at the moment. If I think about it I start to have a knot in my stomach and I shallow breathe and I know that it is as a result of my thoughts. But it is very hard to control them sometimes!
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4 me it's the other way round knorman ::) . bugga ........... :-\
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I'm convinced my health issues are affecting my thoughts, my GP is convinced it's the other way around :)
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Years ago as a meander: I lost my libedo. GPs insisted it was depression. Nope, I was depressed because I lacked any sex drive :'(
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When I took the Diazepam I felt like I'd taken some kind of psychodelic drug. It was terrifying. :o Although I did have a similar experience with codeine... I am a bit of a coward custard when it comes to pharmaceuticals!
Yes it is annoying when anxiety is all lumped together and when GPs see anxiety listed as a symptom of menopause, I can imagine many of them assuming it's always psychological. It would be better to also list ‘Adrenaline surges' as some may have one or the other and some may have both.
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What makes it difficult in my case too, is that I think my -odd and psychosomatic- symptoms of anxiety seem to express themselves quite some time after the event of high anxiety. For instance, I felt quite anxious Sunday evening and Monday as I went back to work after a week off, but was feeling quite well. Yesterday, I was back in the swing of things, having quite a good day at work, but the symptoms hit me around lunchtime. Of course, that triggered anxiety and feeling dreadful today too. It's a vicious circle!
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Could your body have been hungry - mid morning dip can trigger anxiety. It was 4.00 p.m. that I found difficult, that hour B4 our evening meal. ReadyBrek solved the problem.
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Its really interesting reading all your responses on this topic. I definitely think the lead up to being in full menopause messes with your mind. Its very difficult to explain to people exactly what is going on, but I always say its like someone else has jumped into your mind and you get a bit out of control. Feelings of anxiety, panic, dread, mood swings and paranoid about anything and everything. Its only really since I was told I was approaching menopause that these symptoms started, never suffered with anything like it before. I was told that your hormones naturally decrease, and can fluctuate the deeper you get into approaching menopause. Even if
Taking HRT I think the hormones must battle against each other. Im currently taking Femoston 1/10 which worked well for a time, but the mind battle symptoms are increasing again, along with hot flushes coming back too. I definitely believe hormone imbalance plays a big part in how our mind works Lets hope these symptoms dont last too long Take care everyone Anita x
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Hi all,
I'm sorry if I've not read all posts, and repeat things that others have said. This is a subject close to my heart (sadly) at the moment and I have a few perspectives on it. I always suffered badly from PMT from the time periods started, I would know a period was about to happen by the changes in my mood and anxiety levels. Then, after giving birth (the one and only time I did) I was hospitalised for many months with a post natal psychosis and depression. My consultant at the time said that my body didn't cope well with hormonal changes, particularly sudden ones, hence the onset of my immediate post natal problems. I was advised if I had another child that I would need some hormone therapy, and given the 'heads up' that at menopause time more than likely HRT. For the next 19 years...I went back to my usual pre-birth self. A propensity for anxiety, some PMT, but no mental health assistance needed and what I would consider to be a normal happy life. Then I had breast cancer (two years ago) and was put on tamoxifen following other treatments. Within a few weeks the oncologist took me off it, my mental changes were so severe that I was 'at risk'. If I was to ever try taking it again, and he advised not to, then I would need to be under the intervention of the mental health team. (See my pattern forming here LOL ?)
Ok, so, over the last two years perimeno has kicked in big-time. Irregular periods, heavy periods, assorted symptoms that many of you will understand in the lead up to 'the change'. What has been my main symptom? Astonishing and crippling anxiety, the sort where some days I can barely function to get through the day. I am now being referred for some mental health support. I personally believe my progesterone is low and I am oestrogen dominant from my own research, but a blood test confirmed nothing much, possibly according to my doctor, due to timing of it being taken.
So, anxiety to me is EVERYTHING to do with hormones. Some people are more prone to respond that way, but my own evidence (my GP is in agreement) is that it affects me hugely and therefore as I can't be alone in this, I'm sure many others too.
Charys x
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I can't decide if mine is hormone related or not. It started out of the blue, literally, 4 years ago with a serious panic attack. I was so naïve about anxiety/meno that I thought I was having a heart attack or stroke and went to the GP, who was very unsympathetic and never mentioned a panic attack. But I researched and realised that the attacks coincided with stopping HRT suddenly [ironically because I thought it was causing mild anxiety! I had taken it for about 6 months] and a fairly heavy night of drinking red wine. All was well for about 2 months and then I got attack after attack and found them difficult to stop. Thinking about it, I wasn't majorly stressed at the time, but had had three or four months of worry about a house move and a year before that a major and unpleasant career upheaval. Like Letmein, my attacks appear on the surface to be random but are usually preceeded by a period of stress/worry that I get through on adrenaline, then my body seems to fall apart as a result as soon as things are fine again. But I can't honestly say that HRT helps or hinders - I have tried with/without and the anxiety remains. Although perhaps I need longer without, I've only ever done a couple of months and then given in due to hot flushes.
I don't have panic attacks any more - anxiety now attacks my guts and follows a fairly set pattern of trapped wind/back ache/gurgling and burning stomach, then finally early morning waves of adrenaline that leave me shattered.
So - is it meno caused or not? I think it is related, but to be honest I have always been a glass half empty worrier, so perhaps lack of oestrogen just lowers my natural defences and lets it all in unchecked.
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Charys - check out Ray Peat's articles (or the forums and other people's more easy reading takes on it which can keep you busy on Google for hours!) re low progesterone / high oestrogen and anxiety. It's fascinating and also covers keeping blood sugar up to avoid physical anxiety and sorting your thyroid and adrenals.
I was surprised to read that oestrogen can stay high 4 years following the first missed period and the ratio of progesterone being less than 100 times oestrogen (the normal ratio) causes a lot of meno symptoms.
[This is just for those interested in looking it up, not to start a debate as I don't want to challenge anyone who is doing well with their oestrogen therapy. Opposing therapies can sometimes be just as successful!].
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Thanks I've started looking based on your reply, and there is LOTS to read you are right if you go directly to his own articles. What I like about the sound of it, is that it gives you the feeling you can 'take back' some control with some judicious natural changes? Am I right ? I am certainly interested in what I've seen so far, I can't have oestrogen therapy anyhow.
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Interesting stuff. But am confused - I suffered from endometriosis for years, resulting in a hysterectomy aged 40 and had many of the symptoms of oestrogen dominance. I have long wondered if it contributed, or helped, my anxiety. These articles suggest I might be oestrogen dominant [I still have my ovaries] so should I give up HRT??
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my attacks appear on the surface to be random but are usually preceeded by a period of stress/worry that I get through on adrenaline, then my body seems to fall apart as a result as soon as things are fine again
That's exactly it. It's once the adrenaline reduces that the symptoms come up and indeed on the surface it doesn't seem to make sense as the attack happen when you are starting to feel more at peace.
I don't know how related it is to hormonal changes, but I'm pretty sure it is related to advancing age and it feels to me that I don't cope as well with these adrenaline surges as I used to. What makes me think it is age related in addition to hormones is that my OH says he feels the same too. He used to not have a care in the world about anything, but now will get so focus on one small matter that really doesn't warrant being anxious about. He is aware of it, but says he can't help it, so it doesn't affect men too!
I had an adrenaline surge this morning as I had to do a presentation and meet people for the first time. I felt it at the time, than after that, was super efficient and feeling great. I'm now feeling the release of it and it is nice, but I wouldn't be one bit surprise if I suddenly start with one of my weird symptoms later tonight or tomorrow.
CLKD, I do find that eating something can sometimes help a bit but yesterday, it happened just as after I had my porridge!
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Thats all to do with adrenals where you ride the stimulant hormones but then they crash and leave you a quivering wreck! Keeping blood sugar stable can help.
I was referring before to sudden surges in adrenaline that make you feel terrible as they go so high and are not in line with the situation, like fight or flight but trigered internally (rather than externally like a car about to hit you).
Rebel2 - if your HRT is helping you then it’s what you need, if it isn’t then try something else.
Yes being able to take back control is what I like too!
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Charys, I'm really interested to read your experiences because I too had breast cancer, diagnosed nearly two years ago; following treatment (mastectomy, chemo and radiotherapy) I got severely depressed and suspected it was down to the sudden menopause. My cancer was triple negative so no tamoxifen or similar, I was started on continuous HRT and for the first 3 months or so things were really improving as my estrogen level was rising. Then I started to get bad side effects from the build up of progesterone (nausea, stomach pains and increasing depression) so had a break from the progesterone. Again things improved. Restarted progesterone after 6 weeks, and wham, I was suddenly hit by the most awful, crippling anxiety, fear, dread - always worst in the morning and gradually draining away as the day went on. Stopping progesterone has made no difference and my estrogen level is now very healthy; the only other culprit could be testosterone, which is very low too, but so far it hasn't made any difference (but then my SHBG is high so that could be inhibiting the action of the testosterone). I can't take ADs, beta-blockers or any other mood-altering drugs as they all make me suicidal; I'm currently under the care of the Mental Health Crisis Team so i do know exactly where you're coming from, it's all hormonal and it can make you feel so bad you'd rather end it all. Hang on in there, I don't know what the answer is yet but there's got to be one.....x
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I also agree with the majority. Anxiety is definitely caused by hormones (but can also have other causes). I had dreadful PMT for decades, and PND twice, then when I became perimenopausal a couple of years ago, it felt like permanent PMT.
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Hello ladies.
I also think that hormones are the root of my anxiety. On the days when I feel well nothing panics me but when I have palps and internal shaking I worry about how I would cope whilst feeling so awful and that makes me panic. In my experience the horrible sensations definitely come first, infact when I feel okay I tell myself to enjoy it while I can lol. This scenario can also occur throughout the day, ie feeling normal in the morning, noticing the tension and shakiness arriving in the early afternoon and then quivery etc in the evening before feeling better again before bed. I don't think it's related to blood sugar because anxiety can strike before or after a meal and eating doesn't seem to affect it and although tiredness doesn't help the same routine can occur after a nap.
Our hormonal system operated independently of other factors during our fertile years and we accepted that we would ovulate and menstruate on certain days and for a certain length of time, we didn't try and influence our cycle by tweaking our thought patterns or having an early night, the only way to change it was taking extra hormones! My trusty meno book listed anxiety as a common symptom and every GP I've spoken to has agreed with that statement so I think we are in good company.
Sending hugs ladies and wishing you all well.
K.
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racjen, yep, another person who is incredibly hormone change sensitive....like I think I am. My GP has now referred me to the community mental health team, as I have days of such crippling anxiety that I feel I can barely function. Then, when (and I am pretty sure of this) my hormones alter and switch around, back to normal as quickly. I don't think its going to help hugely, as until everything settles down with regard to these monthly hormonal alterations..... you hang on in there too.....at least we know we aren't alone.
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Trouble is, I can't work while I'm like this, I'm way too sensitive and unpredictable. I've been off work this year for nearly 5 months with anxiety and depression, and last year for 8 months with breast cancer treatment. I'm getting very worried about losing my job,and since
I don't have a partner to support me things are starting to look a bit scary....
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racjen, have you been following the recent research about the link between inflammation and depression? It was on the BBC Radio 4 news this morning. It is a very interesting topic, and shows that treatment for depression requires a far more holistic approach. Possibly your recent cancer treatment was a contributory factor (not solely in an emotional sense).
JP x
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Yes, I did hear a thing about that but I was only half listening - must do some research. I'm sure you're right that there are links with cancer other than the emotional trauma; cancer is itself partly caused by inflammation in the body so it would make sense.
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Anxiety is nothing to do with hormones?!!!
I don't know whether to laugh, cry or throw something!
I started suffering from extreme anxiety at the same time as I started to get my first peri symptoms. Huge anxiety about anything and everything plus also a generalised anxiety - feeling panicky without knowing what I was panicking about! My worst issue is health anxiety - I find a new 'terminal illness' every week, and am thinking that if I ever do develop anything potentially fatal, I'll probably miss getting treatment because I'll assume it's just another panic and feel I can't go to the doctor about it!
I've read arguments that say that menopausal anxiety is simply due to accepting you are entering the post-reproductive phase and so are more aware of your own mortality. I don't agree. At 35 (when I started to get symptoms) most of my friends were having babies and menopause/final life stage was the last thing on my mind. The anxiety kicked in well before I suspected I was in peri.
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One of the ways my anxiety can be triggered is by sensitivity to action and excitement on TV. My sensitivity to these things - which can strike without warning, just when I'm in the middle of watching something - has been a factor since I started the menopause. Did this happen before my hormones went doolally? It did not!
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Just adding my bit, maybe anxiety is a bit of both hormones and thoughts reacting against the other. The body has 4 hormones, estrogen, cortisol, thyroid and estrogen. In stress they become unbalanced and can cause symptoms. I believe you cant separate the body and mind, its all inter- related.
Just my thoughts!
Charliegirl@xx
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+ adrenaline ........... :-\. progesterone .......... :-\
When my anxiety floors me I have to take my emergency pill. If it's background I find myself tuning in to C whether it's going to become worse, if that makes sense :-\. Exam stress etc. is totally different for me from acute anxiety as I know that once the exam etc. is done, that anxiety will go.
Right now it's background because I have a change of routine this week. I'll probably be OK on the day but my gut is suggesting otherwise :'(.
This organisation may be helpful, after a quick 'google', like U do :
The Pituitary Foundation is a national support and information organisation for pituitary patients, their families, friends and carers. We are the UK's leading charity providing support to people affected by disorders of the pituitary gland such as Acromegaly, Cushing's, Prolactinoma, Diabetes Insipidus and Hypopituitarism.
etc..