Menopause Matters Forum

Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Hurdity on March 29, 2018, 07:46:29 PM

Title: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Hurdity on March 29, 2018, 07:46:29 PM
As it says - I can't believe I've agreed to do this at the ripe old age of mid 60's after 11 years on patches which I completely swear by and which have eliminated all my menopausal symptoms. If it isn't broke, comes to mind.....

However I had a long overdue review of my HRT - when I mentioned last week I got the testosterone prescribed by the gynae GP. Well this was also the first time I had to spill the beans about having slightly increasing my oestrogen dose due to starting the T and not wanting to be T dominant. As I've mentioned before I did this by snipping my 50 mcg patches into 4 and adding one of these to my 50 mcg making 62.5 mcg. Somehow have managed to get away with having more prescribed so far, by just ordering my patches a bit early saying I've nearly run out (after all they sometimes come off!) Doc wasn't keen on non standard amounts but not keen on prescribing 75 mcg (so I could snip a bit off that instead!)  so I thought gel might be easier, although rather worried about rocking the boat when I function perfectly well.

The upshot is I've got Sandrena (I didn't want estrogel as it's weaker so you have to apply more).  I asked for 1.5 sachets as the same as 2 pumps of estrogel. However she wanted me to try less ( I'm nearly 65) and also again it was a non-standard amount. I was so pleased she agreed to the T that I agreed to a 3 month trial of a sachet per day which is 1 mg ( same as 1.3 pumps of gel!).

I started yesterday morning - scary! The stuff is so much more gooey than Testogel which is quite runny. This is more like the consistency of a salve or ointment and quite sticky. What's more it takes AGES to dry ( I applied it to my inner thighs) and was still tacky after half an hour. It has to be applied below the waist on body or thighs and I will no way apply it to upper body.

So I sit back and await any effects - positive or negative. The worst thing will be if sweats come back which have been well controlled before. I have to go back in 3 months but if they return before that will do a trial of 1.5 pumps.

Weirdly I am half way through my 12 days of utrogestan (200 mg vaginally) and I could swear my head is not as foggy as usual - but that could just be wishful thinkiing and it is near Easter hols!

Anyway here goes!!! :)

Hurdity x
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: robotwars on March 29, 2018, 07:53:35 PM
Good Luck, I hope it works well for you.  :)
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Maryjane on March 29, 2018, 08:50:08 PM
Good luck . You can only try 😊.

I couldn't tolerate sandrena dreadful spots on legs , took forever to dry and made me feel sick .

So swapped to estrogel pump and all good .
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Daisydot on March 29, 2018, 09:00:39 PM
Good luck from me too Hurdity hope all goes well xx
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Roadrunner on March 29, 2018, 09:23:14 PM
I love it. I hope will too. I agree it takes longer than 10 minutes to dry but I put it on after my morning shower then by the time I've dried myself, applied creams and dried my hair it's good to go.
You'll soon know if you need to up your dose and you can add a bit more as needed.
1mg wasn't enough for me.
I've ended up on 1.75mg
Good luck and keep us posted.
RR xx
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Lanzalover on March 30, 2018, 04:57:08 AM
Good luck Hurdity

Hope it all goes well do keep us updated.

Love Lanzalover x
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Rhiner on March 30, 2018, 06:41:43 AM
The best of luck Hurdity, hope it goes well. I too would be very reluctant to change from patches too.  Its strange that you are asking for tips as its normally everyone asking you for tips.
All the best, Rhiner x
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: paisley on March 30, 2018, 07:20:20 AM
Good luck. Hope it goes well
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Kathleen on March 30, 2018, 05:06:27 PM
Hello Hurdity.

Wishing you good luck with your new regime and I look forward to reading about your progress.

Take care.

K.
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: warwick01 on March 30, 2018, 06:24:02 PM
Hi Hurdity

Good luck hope it works ok. If not go back to estrodot 50.

Wxx
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Dancinggirl on March 30, 2018, 09:40:46 PM
Hi Hurdity - I've emailed you.  DG x
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Tinkerbell on March 31, 2018, 12:00:04 AM
So why does it have to be applied to lower body but in the leaflet with Estrogel it says you can apply on shoulders? I thought it was the same stuff :-\
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Hurdity on March 31, 2018, 08:16:34 AM
It is puzzling Tinkerbell - I have mentioned before when this has been discussed that all the patches say they should be applied to lower body, and Sandrena gel - and oestrogel is the only transdermal oestrogen product (as far as I recall) which gives arms, shoulders and upper body too.  I go with the advice on my leaflet and put it on thighs - as far away from breasts as it can possibly be! This is just a personal choice - I have found no other information/studies on this.

Sandrena has some different ingredients to Oestrogel and also a different concentration of estradiol (it's more concentrated).

Thanks everybody for commenting. I'm just hoping I'm not going to be allergic to it as I have sensitive skin. So far so good Day 4. No especially adverse signs although yesterday it was red where I had rubbed it in.... incidentally the patient leaflet says rub it in whereas the more detailed prescribing information on the web - the SPC) makes no mention of this - so this was news to me! However the consistency meant it is more suitable for rubbing than a more watery gel like Testogel which I just spread on my (other) lower thigh.

Hurdity x
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Dancinggirl on March 31, 2018, 08:46:06 AM
I'm afraid I don't like the sound of Sandrena at all!!!! I've never used this, only Oestrogel or Oestrodose, but it sounds far more problematic because it doesn't dry as quickly as Oestrogel.  I used to just apply one pump or each thigh in the morning (like you I never thought it good to apply anywhere near breasts), it used to dry within 10 mins while I had my cup of tea and I could then get on with the day.  I didn't have to rub it in, I just smeared it well over a good area so it wasn't too thick so it would dry and absorb quickly. As I mentioned, I have emailed you but I will be interested to hear how you get on with gel as opposed to patch.  Good luck.  DG xxxx
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Joaniepat on March 31, 2018, 10:00:51 AM
Hurdity, isn't the Lenzetto spray applied to the arms? Mary G says that's where she puts it. I think all this may have to do with the application site chosen for the original trials of the products. I've read somewhere that this was the case with Oestrogel, that the trials were carried out on arms and shoulders, but unfortunately can no longer find the reference.

Anyway, best of luck with your new regime.

JP x
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: dangermouse on March 31, 2018, 10:20:52 AM
Studd told my friend to put the Oestrogel on her arms and shoulders. She had to use hers 4 times a day and would put it on whilst we were sat in restaurants! Thighs would have been a bit tricky during the day.

My compounding pharmacy has now issued a leaflet on unlicensed meds and meds used off-licence (as a lot of nonsense is written about them) and how to apply transdermal hormones and they now recommend areas where there's no hair growth (inner arms, shoulders, backs of knees, feet) and to rub in for a whole minute. For oestrogen it says to avoid breasts but rest of upper body is fine. I suspect circulation is better on the upper body and thighs may be more dense and so could take longer to hit the bloodstream. Although if always used there then sure it's fine as slower absorption may be suit some people.
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Dancinggirl on March 31, 2018, 12:40:41 PM
I think that applying any oestrogen to areas close to the breasts allows easy transference.  The instructions do say one should not have skin to skin contact with other people for roughly an hour after application, so if you apply to inner arms, unless you have clothes that cover the area, there would easily be transference to breasts.  Does one have to walk around holding your arms away from you body after application? The inner thighs are hairless, the skin tends to be thinner, so an ideal place to apply the gel - also nearer our lady bits that definitely benefit from more oestrogen.  I  suppose shoulders are possibly the other reasonable area for application but I never had problems with absorption when applying to inner thighs.  DG x
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Dotty on March 31, 2018, 12:43:31 PM
You put it on outer upper arms and shoulders , not inner arms so it doesn't touch your body. Works very well .
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Rosti on April 01, 2018, 11:30:57 AM
Just a thought,  I was talking with the doc to discuss increasing the dose of Estradot as I had had some hot flushes and night sweats return and asked whether I could go from 50 to 62.5 mcg by "snipping" bits off the patch.  The doc said no BUT, she also then suggested that I use a 37.5mcg patch together with a 25mcg patch.  Okay so two patches but the dose is achieved and stable.  Since trying the 75mcg patch it seems my body really doesn't like the change in one go so 62.5 looks like the way forward for the time being... In the meantime I have reverted to 50mcg as the 75 was making my heart beat really rapidly and I couldn't sleep.

xxx
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Rosie63 on April 01, 2018, 12:30:40 PM
Hi Hurdity. I hope your new regime is going ok.......from one 60 something to another  ;)
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Dottyaboutdurham on April 01, 2018, 12:57:13 PM
Wishing you luck Hurdity with your new regime. I have just been prescribed oestrogel & utrogestan after having side effects with the tablet form of HRT. Have not started it yet as I have just started a second period in two weeks ! Waiting till things settle down, despite having a couple of tests to verify everything is okay, I am not impressed having periods at 55 !! I took the pill continuously for so many years.....so periods again are alien. I will keep my fingers crossed for you and be sure to let us all know how you get along x
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Hurdity on April 02, 2018, 05:03:10 PM
Hurdity, isn't the Lenzetto spray applied to the arms? Mary G says that's where she puts it. I think all this may have to do with the application site chosen for the original trials of the products. I've read somewhere that this was the case with Oestrogel, that the trials were carried out on arms and shoulders, but unfortunately can no longer find the reference.

Anyway, best of luck with your new regime.

JP x

The instructions for Lenzetto  says it should be applied on the inner surface of the arm between elbow and wrist so that is a very long way from the trunk of the body. There are the usual cautionary warnings re transfer. This is not apparently yet on our lst of approved medications so I was referring to these - but did look it up anyway!

The inner thighs are hairless, the skin tends to be thinner, so an ideal place to apply the gel - also nearer our lady bits that definitely benefit from more oestrogen. 

Unfortunately mine aren't since using testosterone - so I have to remove said growth!!!!

Just a thought,  I was talking with the doc to discuss increasing the dose of Estradot as I had had some hot flushes and night sweats return and asked whether I could go from 50 to 62.5 mcg by "snipping" bits off the patch.  The doc said no BUT, she also then suggested that I use a 37.5mcg patch together with a 25mcg patch.  Okay so two patches but the dose is achieved and stable.  Since trying the 75mcg patch it seems my body really doesn't like the change in one go so 62.5 looks like the way forward for the time being... In the meantime I have reverted to 50mcg as the 75 was making my heart beat really rapidly and I couldn't sleep.

xxx

Thanks rosti - I don't know why I didn't think of that. The doc didn't seem very keen on non-standard amounts of things hence the 1 mg sachets rather than an extra box of patches, or 1.5 sachets per day. I'll see how I get on and whether I find it too much of a faff with the gel and decide at my review in 11 weeks.

Only just seen this Hurdity.
You mention "slightly increasing my oestrogen dose due to starting the T and not wanting to be T dominant." How about cutting out the testosterone and reverting to the original prescribed oestrogen dose. I think you have mentioned having retired, do you still need the testosterone? The oestrogen patches will still give the benefits for bone health and density.


Um - thanks for the suggestion, but not sure what being retired has to do with anything?! I don't intend to live for the next 20 odd years or more (hopefully - if I'm lucky) lying around like a frigid old woman with aching muscles or being given a diagnosis of fibromyalgia and told to get on with it - and that it's an expected part of ageing!!!!

The testosterone has restored my response completely  ;) - this had totally disappeared so we can enjoy life in that department. In addition I can now do exercise classes without feeling absolutely exhausted or having to lie/sit down a lot during the day due to muscle aches and having bad back-ache in the eve after a day when I was active. Maybe your testosterone levels have remained high but mine were clearly low. I now do 3 exercise classes per week, go for lots of walks, dig the garden, barrow compost, go to music festivals, generally do stuff without flaking out and aching. At mid 60's I'm far too young to be put out to grass and engaging in minimal activity. Keeping active with body conditioning exercises such as Fitness Pilates, and cardio work-outs are an important part of staying healthy and moving as we age and I'm not ready to be put out to grass yet!!!! I intend to live as full and active a life as I can - even if I don't live to a great age, and the tesosterone is helping me do that!

Thanks everyone for posting - and I will let you all know how it goes - so far so good but if flushes/sweats are going to come back it would be over the next few weeks. Will be going on hol soon and that will be a trial applying gel every morning in the hotel before breakfast!!

Hurdity x
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: NorthArm on April 04, 2018, 05:28:28 AM
Hi Hurdity
I hope everything is going well with your change of regime and you're having a lovely time on hols x
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Daisydot on April 04, 2018, 06:18:59 AM
Good morning Hurdity hope you are doing well.re the holiday I've just came back from Amsterdam,it was a coach tour holiday.I had no problems at all with using the gel.I put one squirt on each inner thigh and rub well in and it drys very quickly I usually carry on putting in my eye drops or doing my teeth and it's well dry by then.I hope you have a fab holiday take care xx
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Hurdity on April 05, 2018, 03:29:24 PM
Thanks NorthArm and Daisydot not on hols until next week....! Yes I will be wandering around the hotel room for about 10 mins until it dries and I am trying to get into the habit of putting it on quite early!

Hurdity x
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: MIS71MUM on April 05, 2018, 05:19:26 PM
Good luck Hurdity with the swap.

I'd be really interested to hear how you get on having made the change from patch to gel myself recently.

I find once I've applied the gel, moving about and getting ready speeds up the gel drying. If I lie on the bed doing nothing it seems to take forever to dry.
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Charski on May 04, 2018, 07:25:21 AM
Hi Hurdity

How are you getting on with the Sandrena gel? I have just switched to it (3 sachets/day to replace 4 pumps Oestrogel, which was out of stock). But it takes SUCH a long time to dry and remains tacky until I dress and transfer the stickiness to my clothes! Have you managed to get it to dry and be fully absorbed?

Charski
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: weathergirl on May 04, 2018, 12:09:23 PM
I'd be interested to hear too.   I had a brief trial of Sandrena and found it took forever to dry in warmer/humid times.  It was a tad frustrating, to say the least!  I hope it is going well for you though!
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Florence69 on May 04, 2018, 12:35:32 PM
I've just started using this 3 weeks ago and I can't remember if I was told to rub it in or let it dry ( peri brain )
I remember where she showed me to apply it, on thigh slightly towards the outside not inner, and I've just been smearing it on and letting it dry but it is still tacky half an hour later.
How you finding it ? I think it is helping my anxiety during the day but it's still there on waking, but as long as it does one once I'm up and about I can live with that.
X
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Night_Owl on May 04, 2018, 01:25:57 PM
Hi Hurdity - also wondering how you're getting on with the gel.

Not sure I could be doing with the faff of waiting for it to dry.  When I used Oestrogel I found that migraines worsened, the clinic said that the gel may have created more peaks and troughs than the patch - I never really understood that though, as you would think the gel would supply a more even, consistent dose when applied, say, twice daily - as patches start to 'run down' when due to be changed, don't they ...

You are brave after all this time to make a change!  Hope it's all going good.

J x
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Hurdity on May 04, 2018, 04:54:32 PM
Terrible! Not getting on with it at all well!

Thanks for asking everyone! Was just going to update this thread because yesterday I had had enough and went back to my lovely Estradot patches. Who cares about black marks? They are easily removed!

Exactly as you have found - it takes far too long to dry. This one is supposed to be rubbed in, unlike oestrogel which is just spread on. I think it depends on what the hormone is mixed with, because the same applies to testosterone gels. One is spread on  (the one I use - Testogel) and one of them is rubbed in  (think this might be Testim).

Charski, weathergirl, Florence - yes as you say after the initial rubbing in, a sticky residue is left which you have to wait to dry - but it doesn't - even after half an hour it's still tacky. Well I can dry it off with a hair dryer but then I worry about the effect of heat on the estradiol - can't be good, and I am sure would make it less effective either because of being destroyed by heat or because it isn't absorbed. Well I couldn't be doing with that and having to allow so much time in the morning before dressing. The T gel is easy as it's a tiny blob and also dries quickly.  Oestrogel is probably different and maybe I would have got on better with that but decided as I had been OK for 11 years on Estradot - then that's the one for me! :)

I decided to try the gel because I wanted the doc to prescribe the dose of patches I had been using (62.5 mcg) which entailed cutting a patch, and her prescribing more - and she had previously said the extra 12.5 mcg wouldn't make any difference so both thought gel would be easier, and she wouldn't prescribe 75 mcg as she said I should be trying to reduce oestrogen dose at my age - which I did try!

However when I went to see her on Tuesday and said I didn't like the gel and asked for 37.5 mcg and 25 mcg patches - she then said she would prescribe me 75 mcg and I could cut off a bit! RESULT!!! She wanted to prescribe Evorel because of supply problems with Estradot but I said no, and that the dispensary could supply a different brand if no Estradot but at least would have this as first choice. Just using up the remaining 50 mcg lot until I get to dispensary.....

The other thing is that 1 sachet of 1 mg wasn't enough and I was getting hot again so had increased it to 1 1/3 sachets - even more to rub in.

Night_Owl - I don't find my patch runs down as some seem to report - I think it does depend on the individual woman to some extent. You definitely don't get the same peaks and troughs with a patch as it rises to a peak over 12 hours and then very slowly declines over the next week - but if changed twice a week as recommended the level shouldn't drop too low - according to what I've read anyway. When you take off the patch the level drops over the next 12 hours or so, and by the time that happens the new one will have taken effect keeping the levels more consistent.

Florence - as I've been using HRT for 11 years - for me it is working if I don't get flushes or sweats or feel unaccountably hot a lot of the time. If that starts to happen then the dose is too low - even at 65. I don't get other symptoms ( acheyness etc) until the level drops down lower and I don't get anxiety although I would be interested to know if my mood became lower with low oestrogen - I haven't given it time to find out and don't intend to - if i can possibly help it! I applied to inner thigh.

Hurdity x
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: weathergirl on May 04, 2018, 05:03:53 PM
Hurdity, that's great that you found the solution with the 75 patch and cutting some off!  I do think it's so much easier and 'user-friendly' than the gel.  And from what little I've read, the patch dose is designed to stay steady-state in dose pretty much up to the time you change it.  Maybe for some women this doesn't happen?  But for me it has never been anything that I noticed (dropping off of dose and having symptoms).  I'm really glad you and your doctor agreed on something and it will work for you!   :foryou:
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: Lanzalover on May 04, 2018, 05:18:05 PM
Hi Hurdity

Thanks for the update. Sorry to hear things didn't work out for you.But at least you know Estradot suits you.

Oestrogel dries on me in about 10 mins so no big problem as I can always find something to do in that time put makeup on, make the bed etc.

Lanzalover x
Title: Re: Eeek! Changing from patches to Sandrena gel after 11 years - any tips?
Post by: pepperminty on May 04, 2018, 06:35:31 PM
Hi Hurdity, very brave changing your HRT, and glad that it worked out for you with your GP in the end.  I was reading your post and you said:

The testosterone has restored my response completely  ;) - this had totally disappeared so we can enjoy life in that department. In addition I can now do exercise classes without feeling absolutely exhausted or having to lie/sit down a lot during the day due to muscle aches and having bad back-ache in the eve after a day when I was active. Maybe your testosterone levels have remained high but mine were clearly low. I now do 3 exercise classes per week, go for lots of walks, dig the garden, barrow compost, go to music festivals, generally do stuff without flaking out and aching. At mid 60's I'm far too young to be put out to grass and engaging in minimal activity. Keeping active with body conditioning exercises such as Fitness Pilates, and cardio work-outs are an important part of staying healthy and moving as we age and I'm not ready to be put out to grass yet!!!! I intend to live as full and active a life as I can - even if I don't live to a great age, and the tesosterone is helping me do that!

I didn't realise that testosteone helped with achy joints too! I think I will ask at my next HRT review at the clinic about taking it. Is one type better than another Testosterone?

Also I too am thinking of changing HRT but from Femosten 1/10 to patches or gel. I take an extra half a tablet of estrogen every other day, but now as my hormones have declined it isn't enough to alleviate my symptoms. I have tried Femosten 2/10 and it doesn't suit me for some reason. All I can think of is that the progesterone part is not strong enough with the 2/10, and this causes issues as my bleeding is not controlled.  I too feel far too young to be feeling this achey. Just concerned that a change in progesterone will cause issues.

Wishing you a fabulous holiday

Pepperminty x