Menopause Matters Forum
General Discussion => New Members => Topic started by: Coll on December 30, 2017, 10:53:37 PM
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Hi, this is my first post, but when I feel shocking I look at these posts and it really helps to calm me down.
I have been struggling with depression for 10 years (could never understand why) and was prescribed prozac 7 years and citalopram for a short while but I scanned myself and realised the antid s were causing thickening of my carotid arteries. Iv read Professor Studd links them to increase stroke risk.
First two Gps wouldnt let me have HRT but eventually got one to let me try and have been unsuccessfully on it for last 6 months but am very progesterone intolerant.
Saw lady doctor privately in Leeds and although she prescribed me utrogestan 100 (which Iv been taking PV). Felt really depressed going on it and coming off and on the Evorel 50. Feel it was a waste of money because she took no bloods and dismissed testosterone and didn't give me any help with the Evorel part. Was very dismissive of the London doctors who recommend high levels of oestrogen.
I then went to see a Consultant at the Woodlands and he has taken my bloods but I have had the most horrendous Christmas feeling suicidal or at best low and unable to function.
I keep hoping so much for a way out of this but feel I have ruined my Children's Christmas. My husband doesnt want to know and says he's bored of me going on about it. I did read a post about red clover helping so I thought I might buy some tomorrow and try that. I ripped off my Evorel patch tonight because I feel so wretched and don't know if I need more oestrogen or if that's what s upsetting me.
One or two days I have felt normal and more clear headed than in a long while so I do wander if this has been my problem all these years.
How we are expected to function and hold down jobs going through this I have no idea.
Thank you for all your shared fab posts and comments. They are life savers.
Have tried Evorel conti and Evorel sequi(felt like flu)
Now on utrogestan 100, 7 days PV, and Evorel 50 for 3 weeks.
The Woodland Consultant told me to stay on Evorel for 3 months but I feel so awful I don't know if I should just stop everything. Im seeing him again late Jan.
Sorry to complain so much but I'm really fed up xx
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Hi Coll sorry to hear you've been struggling and know from past experience it's no fun. It's interesting what you say about anti-d's leading to thickening of the arteries/stroke risk. I've always felt there's a downside to taking these meds but not seen it discussed before.
Firstly, how long have you been off the anti-d's? I ask because they affect brain chemistry and it can take a while after coming off them before this rights itself. Secondly evorel conti contains the progesterone noresthisterone and if you're prog intolerant you'll struggle with this. Thirdly, how old are you and whereabouts in menopause do you think you are? + how long have you trialled evorel 50 and utrogestan for? It could be if oestrogen levels have been dropping for a while you are quite low and it takes a while to build back up and get the benefits (feel good factor) of oestrogen.
I'm on this regime + testosterone (testim), I've tried every hrt and found it (for me) the best.
Finally, I think for those of us who are sensitive to hormonal fluctuations the meno is a difficult time but it does get better once you find something that works.
Keep talking and don't give up x
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Hi Coll so sorry to read about your troubles.im not knowledgeable enough to give you advice but there's lots of cracking ladies on here who can all I can suggest is drop dr currie an email it's £25 well spent trust me.she will come back to you with great advice and recommendations which you can print off and take with you to your gp. This is exactly what I did.I hope you can get som3 help soon and keep remembering it's hormones playing games with you and at some stage you will get the help you deserve and get the better of them.stay positive best wishes to you xxx
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Thank you for your replies ladies.
I have been off the anti d s probably two years and on the Utrogestan and Evorel 50 2 months.
I run for 15, 20 mins in a morning and used to find that helped but since Iv been taking the HRT it doesn't seem to help at all.
I'm 52 and periods had become very scanty so I think I'm perimenopausal. xx
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Hi Coll. What are your main symptoms?
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Coll - hi and welcome to MM
HRT doesn't suit everyone and it doesn't necessarily help low mood and anxiety unless this is hormone related.
I found Utrogestan the most problematic progesterone of all the ones I have tried - I've had 25 years of using HRT (due to premature meno) and I've tried about everything there is.
I think a review of your ADs, if you are still on them, would be a good idea - OR stop everything to really assess whether you need to be on anything in the first place- do be a careful coming off any ADs as you have to withdraw very slowly over several weeks and this may make you feel worse for some time - nobody warns you about this when they hand prescriptions for ADS!!!!!!.
Try the RED CLOVER ( the high dose) - I found it helpful but it took about 3 months to help and you need to keep taking it - I also have soya milk with my cereal. Have a good look at your lifestyle - diet, exercise, relaxation techniques etc. - I have found it's about adjusting your lifestyle to cope with al the changes that go on at this time in our life.
HRT is not a 'cure all' sadly - it's helps many women and is very good for reducing flushes and night sweats, then I believe you can't expect much else. DG x
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Hi my main symptoms are depression and anxiety. No interest in sex at all, foggy, disorganised head. Funny thing was when I first started the oestrogen HRT I felt better than I had in years. Clear headed, energized, focussed at work but then the progesterone nearly killed me and I have been on a rollercoaster ever since. One or two days of normality only. When I feel good (mid way through the progesterone) and on the oestrogen (after a few days) I have lots of energy and have done more cooking and organising than I have in ages.
I do run, was running every day at one stage and have a healthy diet. Wouldn't bother with meat at all if I didn't have boys in the house.
I do appreciate your comments ladies. I'm just hoping that I can feel normal soon. I really feel I should man up and get out of bed but it all seems too much. Sorry.
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Hi if you've only been on your current regime for 3 weeks then it's probably too early to say if it's working or not. I saw a specialist and she said I'd got to give the hrt 3 months to work and wouldn't consider changing it for 3 months.
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Coll. I really identify with your post. I have been hit with anxiety since my periods cycles started changing. Like you I have days I don't want to get out of bed and the dark thoughst just run round and round. my brain is foggy. I feel vacant. My husband isn't the most understanding to say the least. He tries but we have two youngish kids and I think he sometimes he thinks I am just wallowing and being selfish. This is a tiring age to be vs 20s and 30s and then these hormone changes (or whatever causes this horrid mental darkness - anyone?!) hit you. I have tried HRT and like you in the first week (placebo I think...) I felt a little better then was hit by nightmares, very dark thoughts which I never had before. I lasted 6 weeks on it. I think I know what helps...remember to eat little and often, get outside every day if possible, I used to do Mindfullness App when I am calm enough, green tea. I think as my problem is anxiety not depression there is an element of giving myself a kick sometimes. I couldn't face my sons Harry Potter party - we had planned it for months - and my husband was just about to cancel it. He was so cross with me. I ended up splashing cold water on my face and slapping myself in the mirror. Yes extreme I know. But I got out of bed , did all the prep and had the party. Even enjoyed it. The only answer is the very bad times will pass. Good time to make some NY resolutions. But it's not easy...big hugs.
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Coll, everything you have said points to two things in my opinion, low oestrogen and progesterone intolerance.
First of all, if you didn't have a history of depression and it started 10 years ago this would suggest the link is hormonal i.e. dropping oestrogen levels. If you felt like your had flu on the continuous combined HRT then this suggests you are at least sensitive to the progesterone part of HRT. I felt like I had flu when I was on the pill years ago and I had a constant nasal drip.
The good news is that you are nearly there and are already doing the right thing by taking 100mg Utrogestan vaginally for 7 days each month BUT in my opinion, your are falling over on your oestrogen levels and not getting anything like enough of it. I used a similar patch to you and it was completely useless and so much so, I might as well not have bothered using it at all - blood tests revealed that my oestrogen level were pitifully low. I would strongly recommend you immediately switch to Oestrogel (you simply rub it on your skin) because from my experience, it is far more effective and also very flexible in that you can easily adjust the dose up or down and it kicks in very quickly. It was only when I went onto the gel that I had a breakthrough and finally rid myself of all menopause symptoms.
The problem you have now is that (probably) your are very low on oestrogen and suffering the effects of Utrogestan which is a very bad combination. You could try adding another 50mcg patch to see if that lifts your mood, you have nothing to lose but ultimately I would switch to Oestrogel and start with 2 pumps everyday and then perhaps go up to 3.
Please don't give up on HRT, it sounds like you really need it. I agree that HRT is not a cure all but it is a 'cure most' if you get the dose and type of HRT right.
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Thanks Ladies, last month I did try putting on 4 Evorel 50 patches through 1 week but didn't seem to make any difference.
I'm seeing the Consultant again on the 17th Jan so if I can drag myself through till then, I'm so hoping I can make progress. The horrible thing is I feel so guilty about everyone and it is quite easy to get into the cycle of 'they'd be better off without a mental mother' but I will pull myself together. Does anyone else feel sooo much worse in the morning's ? I'm going to be so glad to get back to work and worry about other people's problems.
Well done Roseneath going to your sons HP party, you certainly deserve a big congratulatory hug.
Do you know if I ever get better I would like to start a Well woman clinic for women in their 40 s to sit them down and ask them do they have any of these myriad of symptoms which suddenly hit them with no explanation and leave us all confused, guilty and hopeless. Men have aortic screening, prostate screening, and liver screening all the time but they don't seem to have the awful mental agonies.
The specialist HRT GP in my practice said to me when I asked could I try HRT because I felt so awful ' you'll feel a lot worse with breast cancer' ( No family history ).
Thanks again for your kindness and messages ladies.
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What a stupid thing to tell you! As with menopause, ladies deal with breast disease in various ways! Your GP needs a :kick:
There really is no correlation!
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Coll, the doctor who said that is an idiot and should not be the HRT GP at your practice. For a start this is completely out of date information and the studies that came up with this garbage have been completely discredited. If this person is a supposed HRT specialist they should know that otherwise what are they being paid for? I wonder how many womens' lives have been made miserable by this individual?
Google 'oestrogen only HRT can reduce breast cancer' and have a read. Yes, far from HRT causing cancer there is now a school of thought that oestrogen only HRT can reduce BC and although there is a slightly increased risk with combined progesterone/oestrogen HRT it is a very small risk.
Poor menopause treatment by NHS GPs comes up on here time and time again. No wonder so many of us are forced to seek help privately.
I still think it would be worth your trying Oestrogel. Even a 100mcg patch didn't work for me so perhaps you are not suited to patches either.
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It makes me sad to read about husbands not being supportive and even getting angry. Ladies have you read the advice to husbands on this forum? I printed the sheets off for mine, not that he needed them, but so that he could understand what was happening. Sometimes when things got bad he'd give me a cuddle and say it's in the sheets don't worry. We could smile when I was getting confused or teary because we both knew why.
I also make sure my children and all of our friends know about the menopause because every one of them is going to be affected one day.
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Mary G - again my point is that this Forum, Dr Currie and the various menopause 'groups' aren't doing much good across the UK!
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CLKD, you are right, the message is not getting through is it? Coll's situation comes up on here time and time again and the new NICE guidelines have been in place for a couple of years now. We are told to go to our GPs armed with information but aren't we missing the point here? I don't go to my accountant or my lawyer armed with guidelines and information, I expect them to be on top of their game (and fortunately they are) so why is it OK for GPs to play by a different set of rules and be let off the hook?
My advice to anyone who can afford it is to take the fast track and seek help privately.
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Thanks Mary G for the advice about high oestrogen, I have asked the Gp and private doctors Iv seen but haven't got it yet, only because Id read Proff Studds articles online and this forum. I m going to ring Gp again in the morning and when they say no I'll try the Consultant on Wed morning. (Not sure if he wanted to see my bloods first)
I feel I can't go on anymore but that was interesting also about when socialising we feel slightly less dreadful. Iv been eating dried apricots and prunes like they 're going out of fashion, xx
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Mary G - again my point is that this Forum, Dr Currie and the various menopause 'groups' aren't doing much good across the UK!
That's a very damning statement CLKD which I am sure you don't really mean. Change doesn't happen overnight and the various menopause societies and many individual consultants and GPs ( like the British Menopause Society, the Women's Health Network, Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, Dr Currie, Dr Louise Newson and many more) are all working to effect change bit by bit through publications, publicity - newspapers, radio, TV, Facebook, Twitter, conferences, workshops etc etc and I salute them for their dedication. It will take a generation probably to change the attitidue of all the GPs who haven't updated their knowledge. As for this forum - your statement gives no credit to the women (including yourself) and members of this forum who spend their time trying to help and educate other women and through them their GPs from the bottom up!! This forum is read by hundreds of women who we hope will feel empowered to go individually to their GPs and challenge them if necessary.
My advice to anyone who can afford it is to take the fast track and seek help privately.
Yes there is a long way to go but as I've said many times before I feel we owe it to other women if we can, to challenge the entrenched and unhelpful views of some outdated GPs so that the message gets through - and it will be a much longer job if everyone (even if they could afford it) went privately for all menopause problems.
One caveat is testosterone - which it may not be possilbe to obtain on NHS in some areas as it is not licensed for women ( current formulations are for men) - but at least we can try!!
Off me soap-box now ::)
Hurdity x
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Hi Coll
Belated :welcomemm: from me too ( Christmas and all that - busy!).
One thing I don't think you've said in your posts is how old you are and also what your periods are doing or rather what they were doing before you started HRT, and how long you have been on this combo? This will give us an idea of where you are in menopause and whether you might actually be on a much too low dose of oestrogen for your needs. I started on 50 mcg patch when I was nearly 54 but was in late peri-menopause and this suited me fine from the start. I have never liked progesterone but tolerate it as part of the cycle - and now I'm on a long cycle of 6-8 weeks with the agreement of my doctor ( in my 60's now). However some women need a higher dose and especially when younger or if they have suffered from reproductive depression/low mood/severe pms when fertile.
Good luck with your visit to the doctors and let us know how you get on :)
Hurdity x
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Hi Hurdity, and ladies and thanks for the supportive messages.
Very thrilled as I managed to persuade the Gp to let me try Estradiol 0.06%, so have put the 1st pump on. (This holiday has been suicidally horrendous from a low mood point, with no good reason, sobbed myself to sleep last night, and I never cry. )
To answer your questions Im 52, have been trying HRT unsuccessfully for 4,5 months, I know everyone says wait but felt the progesterone each month was destroying me. I literally couldn't function.
I have always been very moody and down before a period. Adored being pregnant, but had absolutely no Post Natal Depression. Wasnt sure if was cause I breastfed each time for 13 months (tried searching the literature to see if it helps ease you away hormonally rather than crash you back down but haven't found a great deal.)
When I first tried the Oestrogen felt more clear headed and alert than I had in years which is why I'm determined to keep trying to get this right. Saw 1 post which mentioned it s the change in hormones which badly affects you because after a couple of horrible days I felt OK on the Utrogestan too.
Think this all started at 42 and tried anti depressants so I didn't have to take time off work but really don't want to have to take them again. Really love having a clear head ( not making mistakes at work ), I just need to get the depression/low mood sorted.
I feel so grateful to this forum that I managed to avoid the mirena coil that everyone kept offering me.
I am going to keep trying, many thanks ladies xx
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Hiya, I have had 2 days of one oestrogen pump but I feel absolutely shocking. So depressed and suicidal thoughts. Will this get better or is HRT just not for me. Everything just seems too too difficult. Iv read so much trying to find an answer and feel impatient but just don't know how I will go back to work. Yours Moaning Minnie xx
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You are not giving your body chance to get used to the hrt by constantly swapping and changing. You need to stick with one for 3 months.
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Coll
There are no quick fixes. If your low mood is hormone related then it will get better in time but low mood and anxiety due to meno are the most difficult symptoms to control.
HRT should control flushes, night sweats and joints aches, so if these symptoms are improved then the HRT is doing its job.
HRT isn't for everyone and finding the right balance takes time - there will be compromises with any HRT regime. A few woman find progesterone of any kind impossible to tolerate so alternatives like ADs/SRRIs may be the answer.
I am concerned that you are feeling so bad that you are suicidal - please see your GP ASAP to get help with this. There will be something they can give you to help, even for the short term. Oestrogen is generally the feel good hormone but it takes at least 2-6 weeks to work its magic.
DG x
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Coll, you were on a 50mcg oestrogen patch which is roughly the equivalent of two pumps of gel. You probably need more oestrogen not less so I would increase to two pumps each day and try to split the dose by 12 hours to avoid oestrogen dips. I find the gel absorbs better than patches so you might find two pumps is enough but don't be afraid to go to more if necessary.
Read some of GypsyRoseLee's posts, she is peri menopause and has had great results with high dose oestrogen.
When my oestrogen levels were low I felt dreadful but when I started using the gel at a higher dose the difference was staggering.
Definitely worth a try.
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I will definitely give the 2 pumps a day a try Mary G and look at the other posts. It was because I was feeling so dreadful on the oestrogen patches all over Christmas that I wanted to try the pump. Got a prescription for citalopram 20 also cause just need some respite. Do you think it makes it harder to tell if the HRT is effective ? when using the anti ds.
I know I sound so impatient but I have been on HRT for just over 5 months and apart from a few good days at the start it has been quite unpleasant. Would love to get it sorted though. Thanks again ladies xx
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Coll - from reading your posts, I think you do need some respite - if only for the short term. Many women need both HRT and a SRRI - my gynae really recommended this if low mood was a key symptom. HRT can help mood but only if it is hormone related. Life stresses, needing to work etc, make it particularly difficult to cope with all the symptoms we encountered when meno hits. HRT can throw up more problems than it sorts as well - it is always about benefits versus side effects. Once the HRT has settled, then you could try to come off the Citolapram to see if you need it or not. To get your life back on track, I would personally take the Citalopram alongside the HRT for a while. DG x
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Can I ask you ladies, do some people get depression with any change in hormones because I think I'm finding if I change anything at all I seem to crash down ?
I'm very dissapointed because I'm taking the citalopram 20 mg now, as I had hoped I wouldn't need it.
Also do you think the depression is likely to be hormonal because the doctors I have seen don't seem totally convinced. I feel sure I'm progesterone intolerant cause of the different HRT s iv tried.
Last question does tesosterone help mood and libido ? if anyone has tried it ? Thanks
At the moment I'm trying oestrogen 2 pumps a day, for 3 months.
7 days of utrogestan
1 tiny tesosterone a week, when I get the prescription
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Is 20mg amitriptyline enough to treat depression ? I take 10mg for nerve pain and can increase to 20mg but was under the impression by what gp said higher doses (ie more than 20mg) is for depression
Re testosterone , yes it can improve libido and give a better sense of wellbeing , it has for me, I still can have low days but not as often and not as bad x
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Thanks for that Annie, Oh Iv thought of my last question. Can anyone tell me about their eyesight. I feel very much that my eyesight has become poorer whilst on HRT. Went to optician, happened to be time for check up and all fine, but I have read that hormones can affect it. Does it stabilise or improve again. I am going to have to start wearing glasses for everything at this rate, (only mildest reading glasses before) Thanks x
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I started wearing glasses at 8, contacts at 15. But 3 years ago I developed double vision, diagnosed as 6th nerve palsy in left eye, about 5 months after that I developed dry eye through the night. Optician said I have more floaters than the average person my age and corneas are scratched quite a bit. Amazingly my eyesight hasn't changed that much !
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Hi Coll, I'm new too but likely be kicked off because GP thinks I've got PMS but can I just ask you to do something tonight please? When your kids get home from school, ask them if they had a nice Christmas and I think you will find that they did. It is so hard keeping all the balls in the air, when you are poorly (just keeping on top of the washing is a huge challenge especially this weather!) We all feel so guilty for being ill but really is it our fault, and if my CPN read that she would not believe that I had said it ;D