Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: racjen on December 15, 2017, 03:10:01 PM
-
Feel like I've spent the last 3 days crying solidly; does anyone else find that ADs make them feel so much worse they just can't stick them? I've been on a low dose of amitryptiline for nearly 3 weeks, to try and control the horrendous anxiety I've been getting on waking. It seemed to help at first but that effect soon wore off and I've been feeling more and more depressed, until today I've got to the point where I feel like throwing myself under a bus. I wasn't even depressed before I started taking them, just anxious. I've now been given propranolol to try instead, but I'm really fed up of being treated like I'm just depressed and anxious when it's hormones that are the problem. Is it just a case of getting estrogen high enough to alleviate the anxiety, in which case I just have to ride it out for however long it takes, or is there something else I'm missing?
-
What symptoms did you speak to your GP about?
Anxiety needs treatment with appropriate anti-anxiety medication. Depression needs appropriate anti-depressant medication. In 2002 I was given Propranolol 80mg daily for 3 months then it was cut after 4 weeks to 40mg daily. I have taken it successfully for a while. Background headaches became a problem so I dropped it to 20mg at night. I also have an emergency anti-anxiety med when I feel really ill which takes about 40 mins. to kick in.
Depression is treated with different medication. Since 1988. If my brain gets low for more than 3 mornings in a row, I up the dosage for 5-6 days. My GP is OK with this. The brain is an organ, often forgotten ::)
-
Good question - felt like I wasn't really being listened to properly today, had to keep repeating that I need something for anxiety NOT depression, and that ADs make me depressed so I don't want to try any more of them. I already have diazepam which I'm using occasionally when it really does get too much, but have now got a prescription for propranolol 40mg once a day so will try that tonight.
I find that most GPs see depression and anxiety as the same illness and just throw ADs at them randomly. Thanks for your input CKLD, I sometimes wonder why I bother with my GP at all...
-
Maybe have a chat with the Practice Nurse? Is there a local MIND walk-in session in your area, I found them really helpful 2 years ago. I sent e-mails to our local Group to find out when they were open and felt really supported.
Anxiety and depression are SO different. I know, I've been there :'( :-\ ....... fortunately my GP has been supportive all the way.
Maybe ask your local Pharmacist for advice on what is available so that you can go to your GP with more knowledge?
-
That's really useful advice, thanks CLKD. i find that dealing with relentless anxiety really gets me down and that's then jumped on by health professionals as the main problem, not the anxiety itself. I'll try your suggestions.
-
Did U try the Propranolol yet? It really can be Trial and Error at a time when we are less emotionally able to deal with it all >:(
-
Yes, I've tried it for the last couple of mornings and it had absolutely no effect whatsoever. First the 40mg as I was prescribed, second time put it up to 80mg as the GP said I could have it up to 3 times a day. Still nothing. Am I right in thinking it's not cumulative like ADs, so if it's going to work it'll work pretty much immediately, not take days or weeks to build up? So disappointed I had a complete meltdown today and spent all morning crying - just don't think I can take much more. There must be something that'll work....mustn't there? My mum just suggested hypnotherapy - I'm so desperate I might give it a go. Thanks for asking CKLD x
-
I have no idea as to how long various meds take to work. Years ago I was told that ADs take 10-14 days to give benefit, however, I began to feel better within 3 days.
When is your worst time, for me it's mornings. Which is why I took the 80mg at night initially to stop that awful early morning anxiety surge. Then it was dropped to 40mg which 12 month's ago I split into 20mg morning and night. Now I take 20mg at night which suits me.
........ and breath. Let the medication do the work. Have you tried relaxation therapy? i.e. starting at the toes - tighten for a few moments then relax. Working through the muscles groups all the way up the body ......... stretch, hold, relax. Focussing the mind totally on that muscle group ......... if in the New Year the BB doesn't have effect then ask your GP for an 'as necessary' emergency medication.
Hypnotherapy can work but I was told that I am not a suitable candidate. Let the medication have a chance?
-
Yes my worst time is mornings - in fact it's only mornings, starts on waking, peaks after maybe an hour and then gradually drains away until by early afternoon I'm usually feeling fine again. Nothing like relaxation, mindfulness etc. helps - when it's there it's there and it's bloody well staying...
I know ADs can take weeks to build up to full strength, but I think BBs are different, more like diazepam ie they should work within 20 - 30 mins. But I'll try taking them at night and see if that makes any difference - thanks for that idea. And when you say "emergency medication" do you mean benzodiazapenes or something different? I already have diazepam, but in my experience my tolerance builds up very quickly and I end up having to take more and more to get the same effect. If there's anything else out there I'll happily give it a go x
-
Because I know that Valium and the one which I take 'as necessary' work, I have never needed to take more than recommended.
I have also used Bach's Rescue Remedy .......... there are pastilles, mouth spray ...... once I use it I never think 'has it worked'.
Relaxation works if one practices ! Finding time to practice was my difficulty. If I sat down long enough I soon had a small :catscratch: on my lap and we fell to sleep ;D. One HAS to practice. Taking time is the first hurdle. Then remembering to do the exercises. It will work if one puts time into practicing, as with most things: liked or not ...... remember those Times Tables?
Cortisol is the waking hormone which can cause anxiety surges in the early mornings. How is your diet over-all?
-
My diet is excellent - having been through cancer I've completely overhauled it and eat masses of organic veg and fruit, very little sugar, minimum of alcohol and caffeine. None of this makes any difference to the anxiety. I think anxiety is the wrong word - intense fear and dread would be better words. Whilst I take your points about relaxation I have to say that I think your anxiety is different in nature, you've been very open about the fact that you've suffered from it for most of your life. Mine is most definitely hormonally driven - I've only had this once before when peri-menopausal and now when suddenly menopausal, and it has a very very distinct quality to it. It doesn't respond to any kind of behavioural modification, it has a very regular timetable and while it lasts it is incredibly intense. Something quite dramatic is going on in my brain and something quite dramatic needs to happen to turn it off.
-
I would wake around 4.30 a.m. every morning in deep, pre-hensile fear :'( filled with dread. :'(. I didn't think that I would survive ......
HRT may ease symptoms 4 U, but again, it can be Trial and Error finding an HRT which works without causing other side effects. Do you keep a diary to see if there is a pattern? Knowing what causes my anxiety and depression doesn't help me fight the feelings ...... once they hit I have to take medication.
It took hours to shake these feelings, as the day went by I would improve. As I worked through my commitments I would feel better, by evening I was a different person. I had to not say 'yes' to anything in the evenings because by early morning, that fear and dread were back. It took months of ADs and BBs to ease the symptoms and it's early morning that catches me unawares even now.
-
There's no pattern, it's exactly the same every morning and has been for the last 3 or 4 weeks, since I restarted utrogestan. The anxiety began the morning after I took it, continued even after I tried switching to levonorgestrel and has continued even though I'm not taking any kind of progestin at the moment. No discernible trigger in terms of outside events or things I'm worried about.
I know exactly what you mean about not taking things on in the evenings when you feel OK - I frequently go to bed really feeling like I'm going to be fine in the morning, that I'll wake up and feel completely normal. Then when I don't and the whole thing starts again I feel like just giving up and hiding under the covers (except that that wouldn't make any difference as the fear and dread would be in there with me). I often just have to get up very early and go for a walk as I can't be still when it's really bad, and being outside helps.
-
Hi racjen, I am five weeks on ads, (citalopram 10mg) and I have to say they made my anxiety 100 times worse the first few weeks. I still have morning anxiety but it's becoming bearable now, I was told it can take two to three months to fully feel the benefit. I'm not better but I'm getting there. I was able to go Christmas shopping last week, before that I wouldn't leave the house. Give the ads time, like you when I tried hrt my anxiety went off the scale. I just feel some women cope brilliant with hrt, while others need ads to get through this awful meno. Hope you feel better soon x
-
Sadly this experience has reminded me that ADs just aren't an option for me - if I stayed on amitryptiline any longer I think I'd become a danger to myself. I recognise this feeling from the 8 or 9 different ones I've tried in the past - a really really desperate depression which is like nothing else I've experienced. Citalopram was the first one I tried and possibly the worst, I think they really really aren't a good idea for me.
-
Hope you feel better soon, and you find something that works x
-
Because I know that Valium and the one which I take 'as necessary' work, I have never needed to take more than recommended.
CLKD, it's widely recognised that one of the big drawbacks of benzodiazapines is that you can quite quickly become tolerant to a given dose and have to keep increasing it to get the same effect. It's not a question of believing in it or not, it's a genuine physical phenomenon. I think you're quite unusual in that you're able to take it long term at the same dose with no problems, that's not the general experience. I'm really glad it works so well for you, but as I've said in the past, diazepam and allied drugs need to be used with extreme caution, they're very addictive and very hard to withdraw from.
-
Ooops sorry, can't work out how to quote another post and then return to my own voice! Hope above post makes sense...
-
I thought that I had posted an answer ......... then dashed for my evening meal and found it's not stuck, now I can't remember. Bugga .....
OK - it's a shame that the medical profession don't advice users of Valium-type medications: to allow the 10mg to work: not to 'panic' and think 'this isn't going to work' but to give it time. Years ago people weren't advised that these can be addictive. This is why I can 'allow' the emergency med to work: which it does, either knocking me out almost immediately or relaxing me within 25-40 mins. of swallowing it. My brain does sometimes think 'I may need more as I still feel ill' but I have to remind myself that it WILL work. This is when I ought to do the relaxation therapy which I tried to learn in the 1990s, however >:( ::)
I am certainly not 'unusual', I've spoken to many users in recent years who have been taught to let this type of medication to 'work'. It's because the medical profession have finally caught up with the possible effects, fortunately. They also understand 'bounce back' anxiety more, when people are trying to wean off various types of medication but go back to taking it because they are scared that they are already addicted. I had these dreads when weaning off an AD in 2002.
How has today been racjen?
-
It's not that I think 'this isn't going to work' and so take more, it's that I've found that after several (not necessarily consecutive) days of taking 5mg and finding it works, I can take it expecting that it will work and find that it simply doesn't - I assume that that means I'm developing a tolerance to that dosage. You're right about GPs though - I've had preciously zero advice from doctors about how to take diazepam safely...
Today I got up at 5.45am so as to avoid lying there awake waiting for the fear to build. Kept myself busy for 3 hours and it certainly wasn't as bad, but by 9am I was still feeling pretty anxious so went out for a long walk which helped (as it usually does). Trouble is, I can use that as a strategy while I'm off sick, but I don't think I could cope with getting up at 5.30am and going for an hours walk every morning if I was back at work.
-
Hi racjen - sorry to hear you are still suffering. Just a point re betablockers since you mention that they are different. I am sure you are aware that these are not anti-depressants nor anti-anxiety medication but are drugs used for heart problems and to reduce blood pressure. They are also prescribed (it seems very widely to menopausal women) to control the physical symptoms of anxiety ie rapid heart rate, dizziness and related symptoms. Although I understand they are not addictive in the same way as benzos I think the body can get used to them - so that if you take them for a long time and then stop, obviously your heart/blood pressure will increase/rise again, and I remember reading the difficult experience of one member trying to stop them in favour of HRT - and in fact coming off them is advised to be done slowly. You might want to bear this in mind if you see them as a temporary medication?
If you do a search from the home page of the forum "benzo addiction" then some posts from other members will come up on this topic - there are some members with experience of this.
Sorry I haven't been able to help you but I hope your symptoms improve anyway.
Hurdity x
-
Thanks for the advice about beta-blockers Hurdity - once again, nothing from the prescribing GP about any of this, they just hand them out like smarties. I know as much as I want to know already about benzo addiction, having been down that path myself a few years ago (in fact during my first, perimenopausal experience of hormonal anxiety). Once I'd finally got off them I swore I'd never touch them again, but it shows the degree of desperation I'm now feeling that I've had to give in and resort to them again, with great caution, because it seems nothing else works for me and at times the anxiety is unbearable.
Dr. Gray is very non-committal about whether getting my estrogen level much much higher than the current 250ish will alleviate the anxiety, but I understand Prof. Studd advocates levels of 800 - 1000 in these kind of cases. She maintains that that sort of level would only be achievable using estrogen implants, but I thought Prof. Studd generally prescribed Estrogel so now don't know what to think.
-
BBs even out blood pressure where required. They were used by sports men/women for years to ease those anxiety surges that can upset competitors. Certainly Propranolol gave me my Life back - why would the body get used to them as they are specifically for blood pressure and found to help some with anxiety? I've had them since 2002 and never needed to up the dosage in order to control symptoms. In fact, due to a background headache I have now cut the dose to 20mg at night. Got rid of the 'hung over' effect thus far ::). Didn't have problems cutting the dose in half.
Could you send an e-mail or phone Prof Studd for advice? Maybe your GP doesn't like to use high dose of oestrogen?
That early morning anxiety is AWFUL :'(. I have found that eating every 3 hours 24/7 helps a lot.
-
Hi CKLD, Dr Gray isn't my GP, she's a specialist I've been seeing privately in Plymouth because my GP is completely hopeless. She does do high dose estrogen - I'm currently on Evorel 2 x 100 patches - but when I asked her about getting up to 800-1000 she just said an implant would be necessary. Maybe I'll pursue it further in the New Year. Currently finding your suggestion of 80mg Propranol at night and 40mg in the morning is helping a bit, so thanks for that. I'm struggling to eat at all at the moment so I might struggle with every 3 hours, but I'll give it a go! x
-
AAAHHHH - I hate that not being able to eat. Been there :'( and once my appetite disappears I get scared that I will never eat again :-\. That's why I have dried fruits and nuts, Dextrose tablets, ginger biscuits, Rich Tea biscuits to hand. Nibbling. Also Bovril in hot water. I have to eat B4 my body feels hungry or I get too queasy even to look at food. Pancakes are a good standby once my appetite returns, mix will keep in the fridge for 2-3 days.
-
The anxiety was already affecting my appetite, and then amitryptiline killed it stone dead (which is the opposite of what they tell you will happen). I'm not the biggest person to start with, really can't afford to lose a lot of weight but I'm already gluten-free and try very hard to avoid sugar so biscuits,cakes etc. are pretty much out. I try to go for high fat things like nuts, cheese etc. Because of my cancer diagnosis I was eating a huge amount of fruit and veg but that's what I'm really struggling to manage right now, just have to take vitamins and not worry too much I guess xxx
-
Don't stick to meal 'times' either, graze, nibble, chew ......... nuts is good!!
-
Peanut butter and bananas are my staple foods....:)
Went back to GP today and got enough Propranolol so that I can take 80mg at bedtime and 40mg in the morning till after Christmas, plus have back-up diazepam for the really bad times. Think that's all I can do for now, going back to review it all in January. My big hope is that much higher estrogen levels will eventually help and also allow me to take testosterone successfully. Otherwise i may be stuck like this for the duration. Thanks for all your advice CKLD and others xxx
-
That will ease symptoms. ......... and breath. My singing teacher often said that humans don't breath correctly, we don't breath in deeply enough - which is why singing can help over-all health.
So at this time of year, ? sing ? ;).
I may be out of wifi range until the New Year but I will be thinking about U!
-
Ha, love it - funnily enough singing is my main hobby, my choir had a Xmas lunch out today and we sang in the restaurant! Have a great Xmas xxx