Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Personal Experiences => Topic started by: Sunnydays on November 19, 2017, 08:40:15 PM
-
There's possibly no right answer to this one.... I'm 55, about 3 years post meno and been using her for about 2 years. Estradot patch with a progesterone cyclical rather then continuous. I've always tried to keep the oestrogen dose as minimal as possible and about 6 months ago changed from a 25 patch to 37.5. I only did this because supply of 25 was unreliable. I cut a bit off the end of the 37.5 to reduce the oestrogen as I have it stuck in my head to keep levels to he minimum needed - and of course, the more oestrogen, the more progesterone needed.
The thing is I think I can say in this time I just haven't felt brilliant. It's most probably coincidence that I have succumbed to various viruses - all the usual ones - a bad cold 5 weeks ago a sickness bug now. On both occasions I've had such painful flu like muscle and joint ache. But I also get this ache intermittently as well. Eg today was the first day of eating after tummy bug, and I was beginning to feel okish. tummy was ok at first then needed the loo 2 or 3 times but this horrible aching has returned! I can feel it over my body.
I know the hrt won't give me the viruses but I wonder if maybe having this slightly higher dose of oestrogen is a bit too high for me? I feel quite low mood often tearful (no wonder as I keep getting unwell) and not so much energy.
I've had blood tests which discount about everything.
I wondered what you ladies might think. If it's not the hrt increase I wondered about adrenal fatigue? Thank you
-
The viruses gong round at the moment are ghastly. They will give you aches and pains injoints and muscles.
You need to slowly introduce food, starting with very small amounts With simple things like toast and honey. Give yourself time to fully recover - get some fresh air, take some vitamins to get yourself back on track.
Use the full 37.5 patch and see how this goes - it's still a very low dose. DG x
-
Hi Sunnydays - I agree with Dancinggirl not to underestimate the effect of viruses on how you feel. One thing is pretty certin though, that a slight increase in oestrogen should not make you feel tearful, nor lacking in energy - quite the reverse! It is more likely that you still need a higher dose of oestrogen to feel at your best 37.5 mcg is still a pretty low dose and in your position I would want to aim eventually for the standard post-meno medium dose of 50 mcg in order to feel well most of the time if you can. I think it is a mistake to try to keep the levels that low especially as you are still so young - and this dose in any case is not licensed for osteoporosis protection (although any oestrogen provides some benefit re bone loss).
Consistent lack of energy even at an average dose of oestrogen and if your diet and exercise regime are optimal - could be due to low tesosterone ( have we discussed this before) and low libido would be the obvious indication of this.
I hope you are feeling better now?
Hurdity x
-
Hi Sunnydays, as the others have suggested, I don't think the slight increase to a still rather low dose of oestradiol would have contributed to joint pains & low mood. In fact I noticed my mood was better on trials of higher dose oestrogen, but unfortunately had to revert to a 50mcg combi patch (which I absorb poorly) due to problems with Utrogestan.
It's understandable you should be feeling low if you keep getting horrible viruses & joint pain & like you I would want to do something about it.
One of the first things I noticed when I started HRT was that my joint pains disappeared. In the 2+ years I've been on it, I've also had fewer colds I think, than at any other time of my life. Immediately prior to starting HRT, I had such bad flu 2 years running that it scared me, so it's been a relief to get through the following 2 winters with only 1 or 2 minor colds.
I really understand your desire to keep your HRT dose as low as poss - I was shocked when having agreed to start HRT on the understanding it would be ultra-low dose, I discovered I had in fact been put on a medium dose patch! But as Hurdity says, 50mcg is the minimum dose licensed for osteoporosis prevention (I have osteopenia) & is standard for women post-meno.
I wonder whether you might in fact feel better on a little more oestrogen - the standard 50mcg, though this might mean more progesterone too (you didn't say how much prog you currently take), so you'd have to get that checked out first if you did want to give it a try. When I got over my shock at being on a higher dose than I'd wanted, I told myself if I was going to use HRT at all, I might as well have enough to get the full benefits. Hadn't counted on being unable to absorb the stuff well - but that's another story!
This is only me thinking out loud with my Sherlock hat on & if you are not happy with the idea of going any higher, please don't - we all have to be as comfortable as poss with what we decide for peace of mind & anything that adds to your worries will not make you feel better. I hope you manage to work out what is going on though & will soon start to feel really well.
-
Thank you so much ladies for giving the time to your replies. I'm pleased to say that I was able to return to work today as I felt so much better. I ate small amounts regularly and rested so it did the trick.
Re the hrt I completely take on board the points you make and yes, I agree that if I'm going to take hrt I just as well take the strength I need or it's rather pointless ( a bit like always taking half a paracetomal for headaches and wondering why it never goes!)
When I changed the patch yesterday I didn't cut any off so hey, I'm now on full does 37.5! I'll let you now how I find this dose.
Re the testosterone, I'm pleased to say that libido side of things are all very good! I do exercise and I have a good diet however with this latest virus we had a family chat and it seems the consensus of opinion is that I'm not eating enough and need to eat more protein and more generally. This may be the reason for the low immunity at the moment.
Thanks again for your support and I'll keep you posted x
-
So pleased you are feeling so much better & that the family chat has thrown up something simple to work on to improve your immunity. If you are undernourished as you now suspect, the fatigue & low mood could well be down to this. I've found since the start of peri & continuing right through to post-meno now, that I need good quality protein at every meal, otherwise blood sugar stability is a problem.
Smaller meals than before menopause are easier on digestion, trying not to go too long between main meals & having healthy snacks if need be. Fish, lean meat, beans & pulses, complex carbs, plenty of colourful fruit & veg, nuts & seeds & a good amount of dairy if you're not vegetarian/can tolerate these foods. We all know the drill, but at this confusing time in our lives it's so easy to miss what the body is crying out for!
Still learning not to keep pushing through & that rest is more essential than ever, especially when sleeping at night is a challenge. Blimey - didn't see this lot coming! :o
Hope you will feel better on the full patch dose too.
Wx
-
Well now I have a full blown head cold. Have had 2 colds already in October, followed by that awful tummy bug and now another cold! I know in the whole scheme of things these are minor however I ache and pain all
over with them and feel awful. I don't feel I have the energy to endure being unwell yet again. So irritable with it as well! >:(
-
Oh Sunnydays - how horrible for you. I think you said you'd had blood tests which came back OK - do you know whether these included a full blood count (almost certainly did) & Vit D?
All I can suggest is to keep on with the plan to make your diet more nutritious, as if you have been running low on essential nutrients it will take time to turn around the effects of this. The other thing is that the older I get, the more I find that rest really helps speed recovery - in a way I didn't need to consider when I was younger.
I really hope you soon start to feel so much better, one infection after another is a complete misery. Wx :bighug:
-
Great advice Wrensong
We women are not good at resting - really allowing the body to recover is sooo important. Diet is very important - as you had a tummy bug, you are probably depleted in vital nutrients. Eating well is of course essential but this is a good time to take some good supplements to aid the recovery and boost the immune system. Feroglobin capsules are good - lots of B vitamins and iron. Add in some Vitamin C, Zinc, vitamin D pills for good measure - Vitamin D is really important at this time of year.
Sunnydays - I wish you a speedy recovery but do take it easy. DG x
-
Thanks again! I have restarted Menopace which has all the vitamins and minerals. IF I eat any more oranges I'll turn into one! The docs did so a full blood count as far as I can see and all these minerals etc were fine. Specifically checked for vit d also. I've had low lymphocytes for ages though and perhaps this makes the difference. I've also today found some echanacia drops which I'm having :)
-
Sunnydays - like you I've had low lymphocytes on every FBC as far back as I can remember. One GP told me some people just do have a below average number, so she wasn't worried about that, but an Endocrinologist said they can be low in patients with chronic auto-immune conditions & I have Hashimoto's, so wondered whether you had any chronic conditions that could explain the low lymphocytes.
-
I don't have any that I know of.
About 8 years ago the doc contacted the endocrinologist who said just as your GP said - some people do and it's fine if you're healthy. But did say it could be underlying auto immune etc but don't know if I've been tested for that.
I do niggle at back of my mind that I might have something serious wrong!
-
That's only natural Sunnydays. If you get another infection shortly or it takes you ages to get over the cold, might be an idea to go back to your GP & have a good heart to heart, to make sure he/she really understands how under par you've been for quite a while. Meanwhile, I hope you soon start to feel better on a more nutritious diet & that you can get plenty of rest to help your recovery.
-
Thank you for kind comment Wrenong. I am taking yours and DGs advice re resting, and I shall go to the doc if this persists. :)
-
Interesting - had phone call from gp that the tummy bug I had week before last was actually bacterial food poisoning! I don't feel quite such a wimp now in terms of all the bugs I've had. Perhaps this explains why I still feel that bit below par and I was vulnerable to the head cold. It does mean antibiotics unfortunately but I know my tum isn't right.
-
Hi Sunnydays - well that could explain a few things, as you say. Perhaps a bit of a relief too, as it should hopefully mean that after the antibiotics & once the cold has gone, you should start to feel a whole lot better. Take the best care of yourself - the bug will have really taken its toll & antibiotics, though a necessary evil, can take a little getting over as you'll know.
Do you take probiotics at all? I find these help me with long-standing gastritis & IBS, but always advise anyone new to them to be vigilant if they do want to try them. I believe they have great potential, with effects throughout the body not just in the digestive tract, but that a lot more research needs doing, as the field is huge. They can give rise to some pretty unpleasant die-off symptoms at first, so this is something to bear in mind. Apologies if you know all this already! :)
-
No I don't take them wrensong but had planned to after the antibiotics. I do enjoy live yoghurt usually but not so much in cold weather! Im rather interested in kafir! Have you ever tried it? It's supposed to be good for you.
-
Hi Sunnydays - yes have had Kefir, but it can be hard to find in the sticks where I live. Biona do one in small jars but the health food shop I used to get it from has recently closed down & even there they had to order it for me. I've had a Polish brand from Tesco in a huge bottle a few years ago - thin & far cheaper, but not that pleasant tasting & actually felt inflammatory, so I didn't finish it! The latest I tried was from Sainsbury's, having failed to find any elsewhere, but it was in a tiny bottle that only lasted 2-3 days, so gets expensive if you want to take it daily. Can't remember the brand, but think it was a Dorset based co & it was by far the most pleasant tasting I've tried. They seem generally a bit more zingy than yoghurt, but the Dorset one was milder in flavour. Hoping a wider range will become available in more outlets soon - surprised the supermarkets seem so slow to catch on, given it's had TV coverage. Looked into making my own a few years ago, but needs babysitting when you go on hols & seemed like too much of a faff tbh!
Have made yoghurt which is dead easy with an Easiyo maker. Never bought their own starters - experimented with different shop bought natural yoghurts as starters & this worked well, produced some lovely tasting yoghurt & can be a cheap way of ensuring a good supply. It does make quite a large quantity in one go though, so suitability might depend on how many in the house will eat it, though with just 2 of us eating some every day it kept well enough. Lakeland Plastics sometimes have the makers on special offer if there's one near you & you fancy making your own.
Hope you feel so much better after the antibiotics & that any probiotics you decide to try will help your immunity for the future as well as keeping your tummy in good health. There is some very interesting research if you have time & inclination to google it. Optibac website has research links as well as customer reviews, but I've also used probiotics from Biocare, Nature's Best & Quest, among others. Quest's probiotic L Plantarum has some encouraging research relating to gut health & healing is apparently a strain often found in kefir. It's a topic I find fascinating as I had a very good friend who was a Microbiology PhD working in the field & who introduced me to probiotics 30 years ago when they were really just in their infancy here in terms of medicinal promotion. Anyway, take care. Wx
-
Thanks for your informative reply. I'll certainly look them up. I drink goats, rather than cows milk. (Drink as in use it in hot drinks, cereal etc) and i discovered from a friend that a company called the chuckling goat makes goats kefir. All handmade. She swears by it. I might try it but for some reason the word kefir seems to conjure up sour/ off cream in my mind!
-
I used only goat milk for a couple of years & even made yoghurt with it as I don't like the commercial goat milk yoghurt much. Hope you like the goat milk kefir - cows' milk kefir is really not like sour cream - more like a tangy yoghurt - sort of fizzy even! Never had goat milk kefir though, so would be interested to know whether you like it. :)
-
Hello ladies.
On the subject of homemade probiotics I've been making my own sauerkraut for a while and love the taste.
There is a lot of information online about the benefits of eating fermented foods and how to make them, there are plenty of books on the subject as well. As I'm sure you know ladies only fresh 'chilled' products contain live bacteria.
Take care all.
K.
-
Thanks for this Kathleen. Maybe we ought to start a thread on probiotics! I've just looked up sauerkraut and it looks so easy to make!
Question: these fermented foods and yoghurts arenhey as beneficial as simply taking a good probiotic?
Caution fermented: internet search the fermentation means they contain higher sodium so not to overeat it! This is I guess what gives yoghurts and probiotics an advantage maybe...
-
Kathleen, that's interesting! Have you noticed any health benefits since making your own sauerkraut? I've never been able to find fresh sauerkraut hereabouts - the only stuff is in a jar & likely long dead!
Sunnydays - I think there have been previous threads on probiotics, so you could search if you're interested. The question of whether probiotic capsules are more effective than live fermented foods is controversial! I eat loads of live yoghurt & sometimes kefir, but also take capsules as I need all the help I can get & don't think anyone yet knows the answer for sure! The capsules do seem to keep my gastritis under better control that any medication has.
I think a lot depends on whether the bacteria from either foods or supplements reach the relevant sections of the gut alive & how long they are able to survive there. Some are said to be transient, but exert a beneficial effect on their way through, some are said to be able to colonise & replace less desirable organisms. Some people think that taking capsules represents a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the huge numbers of resident bacteria in the gut & therefore can't possibly have much effect.
Tbh I think it's a huge field and a lot more research probably needs to be done before we are sure how the many different strains affect us, either singly or when combined. I wonder whether there may also be differences between the sexes! There is also the question of safety for certain groups who are not in good health (immuno-compromised, pancreatic disease, serious gut disorders, immediately post-op etc). There's much written about how good for us probiotics are but you have to dig deeper to uncover articles that are more cautious, so I think we all need to bear this in mind & be vigilant, as with any other supplements we choose to take. Given they are said to exert widespread effects from influencing mental health to immune function, there seems a lot that could go wrong!
The probiotics industry would have us believe we cannot get anywhere near as many beneficial bacteria from fermented foods as we can from buying their expensive capsules, but there's a lot to be said for getting as many nutrients as we can from natural foodstuffs. Some of the commercial probiotics only contain one or 2 strains of bacteria, but the marketing suggests these are proven to promote gut health. They also sometimes make the claim that bacterial cultures used to make commercial yoghurt are chosen to make the yoghurt taste good rather than specifically to benefit gut health!
If we eat a variety of foods including live, fermented ones I think we can't go far wrong. Eating a range of complex carbs, fruit & veg, nut & seeds is said to supply the PREbiotic substances that feed good bugs in the gut & some people think this is the best way to influence what thrives there.
I think really it comes down to whether you feel happier getting all your nutrients from foods or like to see whether you feel any better cautiously trying capsules on top of a good diet. :)
-
Hello ladies.
I first started making my own sauerkraut about two years ago. I began by eating a tablespoon every day with my salad. On the fourth day I felt a gurgling after dinner and needed the loo. Well, not wishing to be too graphic but I produced a lot of poo, not diarrhoea, all normally formed but lots of it ( sorry if tmi ). I think if anyone had slow transit issues consuming a substantial quantity of sauerkraut would be the the way to ( pun intended ). After that I did some more research and learned that sauerkraut is so potent that novices are advised to eat very small amounts initially and increase slowly over time. I followed this advice and can now eat large servings daily without problems. I assume I now have all the right bacteria to digest it. I do feel good on it and although I wasn't trying to solve a particular digestive problem at the time I feel at the very least it is a cheap and natural pro biotic, I've also never found it to be too salty.
I stopped making it a while ago, but when I reintroduced it about six weeks ago I felt particularly calm for the time I was eating it. This may be a coincidence but I've just started another batch so we'll see if actually does help.
Wouldn't it be great if we could discover a natural, cheap and effective medicine that we can make ourselves. Now that ladies is the dream!
Take care all.
K.
-
Wow Kathleen, that's really impressive :o Not tmi at all - just the sort of thing that might help a lot of us at this time in our lives. Thank you for passing that on (no pun intended!) When I looked into making it some time ago I was put off by the vast quantities in the recipe - I couldn't see 2 of us getting through it so didn't attempt to make it. Can I ask whether your recipe makes lots or just a little at a time?
-
Hello Wrensong.
Happy to help. Some people do make huge quantities in large fermenting pots however it is possible to make much smaller amounts in a kilner jar using just one cabbage and there are plenty of YouTube videos demonstrating how it's done. I also have a book called " Real Food Fermentation " by Alex Lewin that tells you all you need know about fermenting many different foods.
When I make sauerkraut I use one white cabbage which fills one large and one small kilner jar. It's ready after four days but can be left for four weeks, depending on the flavour and crunchiness you want. I usually begin eating mine after four weeks at which point it needs to be kept in the fridge to halt the fermentation process but keep the helpful bacteria alive. It can remain refrigerated for up to six weeks.
I love the taste and so does my son but my husband and daughter think it is disgusting lol. Ah well each to his own I guess!
I hope you find this useful and if you do make some sauerkraut let us know what you think.
Take care.
K.
P. S. Pounding the cabbage is also a good way to vent all that meno anger when you're having a bad day!
-
Kathleen, thank you so much for the detail - I have copied it out & will have a go when I get organised enough. Love the idea of venting menopausal frustration by giving a cabbage a good thumping. Could be just the therapy I've been missing all these years! ;D
-
Ues thanks for this really useful info. I might try to make some over th Christmas hols :)
-
Hi Sunnydays, how are you feeling - any better for the antibiotics yet & has the cold eased up at all?
-
HI Wrensong, yes I am feeling much better thank you:) the cold cleared up quickly last weekend - whether that was because I took echinacea drops I don't know.
I still have 2 days of antibiotics to go - they've not been too bad but making me feel a bit sick. I can tell that my stomach is feeling much better though.
I plan to take some good probiotics once course finished. - did you suggest some ina precious post I think?
I've been sure to not over do things but went for a cycle ride this morning :)
Thanks for asking wrensong x
-
Bless you Sunnydays - I'm so glad the cold cleared up quickly, but know just what you mean about some antibiotics making you feel a bit sick. Had a course of Nitrofurantoin a couple of weeks ago & they can do that unless you're very careful to take them with food. Interesting about the echinacea - knew they were recommended for colds but never tried them myself - always afraid of supplements adversely affecting thyroid meds.
If you're asking for a recommendation for probiotics, might be worth seeing what reviews say on the web? I worry a bit about advising as we all react so differently & you've been so poorly. I know at least Optibac & Amazon have reviews for probiotics & probably countless other companies too. Depends on whether you want something mainly to restore digestive health (& in what way - calm it or give it a rocket!) to boost immunity or help with sleep/mood, but with any luck a healthier gut will help towards all those things.
Optibac do a range targeted at different conditions, give relevant research on their website & I find the customer reviews helpful, but being cynical, always read as much unbiased research as I can before paying too much attention to a manufacturer's site! I'm currently taking theirs called "For Every Day" (5 or 6 strains I think) & find it seems to keep gastritis at bay, as I get a flare within a few days every time I try to stop taking them! I take a teaspoon of Bimuno powder every evening as well (said to help feed probiotics). Michael Mosley found it helped him with sleep.
Took Nature's Best's Acidophilus Extra for a long time (4 billion strength - can't tolerate the 10 billion). It contains just 2 strains, but said to be very well researched & the BB12 strain supposedly very good for lower digestive tract!
The Quest one I mentioned earlier - L Plantarum is supposed to be good for suppressing less desirable organisms, but it is only a single strain & we're often advised to go for a multi-strain product. Impressive research if you have time to Google it though. Can't order direct from Quest now - I got my last via BodyKind.
BioCare always used to have a good reputation for very good quality probiotics & Nutritionists used to recommend their products. They were the only company I used for many years - think the brilliant Microbiologist friend I mentioned must have recommended them to me.
Would just warn that I often get a few days reaction at first - sneezy, itchy eyes, sort of allergic feeling, sometimes a slight, itchy rash on arms/chest & some griping in tummy, but it passes after a few days & on the whole I feel better taking probiotics than without. There's loads on the web about this - called the Herxheimer reaction & it can be unpleasant enough for some people to stop taking them altogether.
Had a test last year to check for overgrowth of bad bugs in the small intestine which can result from slow transit (often resistant to all the usual measures in hypothyroid patients) & to my surprise it came back fine, so I put that down to long-term probiotics, loads of live yoghurt & generally taking care with diet. A relief, as consultant had warned if tested positive, I'd have to take different antibiotics on a rotation basis long-term!
Great that you've been out on the bike today - cycling's OH's passion & he goes out in all weathers! Has even commuted the 30-mile round trip to work by bike with snow on the ground. Says it's fine if the road's been gritted. Seems madness to me but I know better than to argue!
Good luck with the probiotics & the HRT - let me know how it goes. :)
-
Just a bit of an update really.... the antibiotics cleared my food poisoning. Interestingly I notes that the tablets are also prescribed for sinus issues and skin infections. So my sinuses got cleared in the bargain as well!
Roll on 2 weeks to just before Christmas and sinuses so painful, felt unwell and my eczema has completely flared up. Aaagh! Alongside all this I started, 2 weeks ago, taking live goats kefir daily.
One of the reasons I wanted hrt was for skin as my skin seemed to be suffering so I feel in a right pickle as I panic straight away and think it must be too much oestrogen!
Just offloading. Cheesed of about my skin and sinuses......grrr!