Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: yriches65 on October 25, 2017, 10:17:50 AM
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Hi All,
Had enough of the madness being on HRT and not being able to find the holy grail.... might just get the odd day of rest bite..then lost :-(
So coming of HRT to see if balances out and helps...fingers crossed...
Anyone know how long it takes for HRT to leave your system and go to natural balances ? Did you have a smooth transistion or a bumpy ride of the HRT, if so how long before everything settled down and were you better off HRT than on it ?
Big hugs
Yx
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I too found that I'd had enough of trying many different HRT regimes second time around. Personally I found that I was better off it. You can only but try and see how you get on ,then see what,if any,symptoms you are left with. Give it a few months then at least you will be starting with a clean slate ,so to speak. A break will give you time to 're evaluate. Good luck.
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I've come off it twice and then gone back on due to anxiety. Although to be honest, I'm not sure the anxiety has much to do with oestrogen levels anymore, I think it's just learnt behaviour. I halved my tablets rather than going cold turkey, but I suppose that depends what delivery method you use. Worth a try, but give it 2/3 months to let things settle.
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My main symptom that I was looking to address was anxiety,palpitations etc.Now I use an AD and manage it fine that way. I just stopped taking it but others have tapered off it like you rebel2 .
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Hi I came of Hrt 5 months ago. I was only taking oestrogen as I had a total hysterectomy 6 years ago. I didn't taper it just stopped. HRT never worked for me either. It gave me a few ok days but never the good feeling that it gives lots of women. For me it has been bad coming off but over the last month it has got gradually a little better. I think for me it will take a lot longer. BUT we are all different & I did have a hysterectomy so no ovaries. For you it might be totally different. Good luck
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That's interesting Paisley - do you take anything instead? Dazned - I am thinking of switching to the AD route, but trying to control anxiety without at the moment. I don't think HRT has done anything for my anxiety really.
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Anxiety is a 'learnt' behaviour from when we lived in the caves ::). It's the flight/fight response. Automatic nervous system etc.. Mine has been controlled well with beta-blockas as well as an emergency tablet when it cripples me.
Do you think that keeping a mood/food/symptom diary would be of use? The way to find out how your symptoms alter/improve is by stopping the treatment.
HRT isn't the 'cure' for all women. It's the Trial and Error that can be tiring.
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Hi yriches
Hilarious phone auto-correct = "rest bite" - the mind boggles ;D. Insects (or dogs) taking a quick nip while you're sitting down having a quick snooze, come to mind!
Anyway - I came off HRT for 3 months a few years ago when I was in my late 50's. I first noticed the symptoms after about a month and after 3 months they'd all come back and more ( because I wasn't post-menopausal when I started) and it was horrible. I went straight back on and have stayed on ever since - now mid 60's.
Depending on what you've been taking - systemic levels reduce very quickly but the longer term effects can take several weeks - flushes and sweats may well come back the quickest =- but changes to your skin, bones and circulatory system are long term.
The thing is - it's not just about obvious symptoms - although consideration of how long these might last is important - because for some women they may last for another 10 years - but the protective effect of oestrogen is also important given that we may live until we're 90 if we're lucky. Some ADs may help with flushes but they won't provide the same protection that oestrogen does.
It takes a while to find the right HRT regime and dose and this may vary depending on what stage of menopause you're at - but I feel it is worth the effort. Also no HRT is not a magic pill to make all symptoms go away - there will still be downsides - for me it is having a bleed in my 60's and having to endure a course of progestogen - but still worth it overall! The trick is to feel better on it than off - of course and therein can lie the challenge... Lifestyle issues also come into play and we all have to make more effort at this stage in our lives to eat better, exercise more, get out into the fresh air and sunshine and reduce some of our bad habits (if we have them!) ::).
Short answer - better on than off by far!!!
Hurdity x
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Hi All,
Thanks for your responses...
A bit of additional info about myself....
Had a full hysterectomy back in 2004 with ovaries removed....had HRT for 3 yrs but then struggling with turns..... GP's couldn't sort so came off it, was no bad side affects coming off back then...and stayed of it and had a ok lifestyle no flushes etc.... only thing that got worse over the last 4-5 years was the vaginal atrophy with sex becoming really painful..therefore stopping , had been diagnosed with lichen sclerosis so thought it was related to that ....was no useful info from the nurse etc...
All was ok until BOOM last Aug where had water infection trips back and forwards to the GP each time making me more anxious ... saw private specialists... sex hormones were low etc..
Have been on numerous regimes....
Last one being Estrogel and Progesterone..... I find I couldn't take Estrogel without Progest to balance the Estrogel...
Would started to have better days then would go bad.....could never get the right balance...suffered from depression, anxiety, flushes, acne , cystitis plus all the other symptoms... when started Estrogel thrush started and continuously got worse....
One thing though it did help with the vaginal atrophy ... tried it only once and no pain .... but no interest since..
Thinking I had 9 years with no problems so do I need HRT , so trying off at the moment.... but struggling and don't know which way to turn as whether the correct thing to do.... GP is useless.
Big hugs
Yx
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oh for info....
Was 39 when had the hysterectomy ... now 51
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You needed treatment for the bladder problems! Do read our threads about vaginal atrophy [My Bladder etc.] and those by Suzi Q. Have a chat with your Practice Nurse for advice? This is one issue that if treated correctly, can really ease symptoms; some ladies find that they require Sylx or Yes products too.
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Sorry to hear about your ongoing problems - from what I've read it is more tricky getting the right dosage if you've had ovaries removed too. I understand the general view is that if symptoms haven't resolved with oestrogen and you are taking a reasonable dose then the addition of testosterone may well be the missing link - not progesterone - as the latter is only needed in large quantities for pregnancy and in HRT to protect the womb lining. There was a thread on surgical menopause which might have some tips: https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,34701.195.html
In your position I would want to check bone health if possible as you had surgical menopause at such a young age and replacement HRT for only a few years - ideally it would have been beneficial to take it at least until the natural average age of menopause which you have just reached. I can see how frustrating it must be for you not to find a dose that works. It is usually a case of trying a particular dose for a few weeks and then gradually increasing until at least your flushes disappear. What dose of oestrogel were you taking? Some find they prefer patches - and depends on how well you absorb the different types. I've never used gel, only patches and it's always worked a treat for me but then I still have my ovaries.
You absolutely must get a treatment for your VA - vagifem or estriol cream - as well as other recommended moisturisers etc but in your position you may benefit from restarting systemic HRT as well, for this reason alone. There are women on here who need both even without other menopausal symptoms.
Once you've taken stock I would seriously reconsider - for the long term health benefits I mentioned, as you really do not have to suffer and especially still being so young.
Hurdity x
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I had a horrendous perimenopause with fluctuating hormones. HRT didn't do anything at all for me. Maybe 1 or 2 ok days. After my total hysterectomy I tried every HRT possible & gave them all a really good go but I think they caused spikes. I thought what is wrong with me? Other women take it & feel fantastic but realized enough is enough. There is a life beyond HRT. There are lots of other things out there to help & just because we aren't on HRT does not mean we will have crumbling bones. I go for regular bone scans, I have no VA. Everyone is different & for me it is much better with no HRT. I take magnesium, vit D & calcium, zinc, high omega 3 for the brain, B vitamins. I also excercise, long walks with the dog & relaxation techniques. It takes a while to come off HRT though, it isn't quick or easy. I am nearly 6 months off & only now is it getting a tiny bit better. Hope you feel better
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That's interesting Paisley, I also don't think HRT does much for me except reduce the hot flushes. I'm building up to a gradual withdrawal - just trying to get anxiety under control first.
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Anxiety may be un-related to hormone unheavals ;). Let us know how long it takes B4 the anxiety settles once you have stopped the HRT.
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Hi All,
Thanks for the additional comments.... for info...
The bladder infection did clear up , but was left with insomnia , anxiety etc.... hence why the sex hormones were looked at..
With regards to the Estrogel... originally was on 2 pumps then 3 , but then reduced to 2 ... but had side effects...which did ease slightly when added some progesterone.... have also been on testosterone but still couldn't get it all balanced...
A few trips to the GP's and none have mentioned about checking my bone density... they just don't have a clue..
At the moment the VA is still ok, don't think it has gone bad again.... don't know at the moment and not intimate with the other half
At the moment the last week has been pure hell...with no good days :-(
Big Hugs
Yx
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Hi ladies, just been reading the posts about coming off HRT. I went on it in April because of sweats and palpitations (I'm 63 and 4yrs post) however it did put away the sweats etc. but I would wake in the night with horrendous anxiety...feeling like I was totally wired and bowels going etc. After 5 months I weaned myself off but I'm now suffering terribly with anxiety and nervy bowel (all of which I never had before HRT). I'm also having nights of insomnia....wandering about in the wee small hours feeling very fragile. I'm trying mindfulness for the chatter that goes on in my brain whilst lying awake.
I'm going to see the Meno Dr next week and just not sure whether to try another HRT or to take beta blockers or something. Does Ad's have side effects or are they a good alternative? 🙇🏼♀️
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Carol -I'll be interested to hear how you get on. Exactly the same happened to me, I'm now floored with anxiety and mind chatter. I found citalopram made me very flat and numb but stopped the panic attacks. I was very sleepy to start with and found concentration difficult but it flattened out after a month. But I stopped after four months as I just felt nothing. I kept anxiety under control reasonably well for another 18 months with just occasional bouts, but can't get rid of it now so am thinking of stopping HRT as it can't be any worse than this!
Good luck, let me know how you get on.
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I really think hrt is NOT for some people and quite frankly I don't think it benefits anyone by scaring them into thinking if you don't take hrt it will damage your heart and bones. While i totally understand it works really well for some we are NOT all the same and we are not failures because we 'gave up' on hrt.
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totally agree Yammy. Nobody on here should be scared into doing anything. I must admit I am now a little scared to give it up -despite my doctor saying I should! How stupid is that, I am taking advice on here over my GP's professional opinion?! I know they aren't experts on meno, but they are at least doctors!!
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Well said Yammy1. It isn't for everyone and people shouldn't be made to feel bad about their personal choices ! It isn't always the panacea some people think which in turn can leave them feeling let down . :-\
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I really think hrt is NOT for some people and quite frankly I don't think it benefits anyone by scaring them into thinking if you don't take hrt it will damage your heart and bones. While i totally understand it works really well for some we are NOT all the same and we are not failures because we 'gave up' on hrt.
Hi there - I don't think anyone is being scared into thinking women will automatically be damaged health-wise if they don't take HRT. Taking HRT for current symptoms (which might be temporary) though is a different issue than taking it for long-term health. However those of us who point this out (the health protection benefits of HRT) do so because it is the RECOMMENDED course of action by the medical profession based on the evidence. Not to say EVERYONE will be negatively affected but the risk is greater for younger women going through menopause before the average age. Of course it is a personal choice but one that should be made in full position of the available evidence and of course also taking into account your own personal circumstances - so for example making sure that if you look at family history re chances of osteoporosis, heart disease etc), and undergo extra tests if necessary at regular intervals to re-assess and to help you with your decision.
Hurdity x
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PS I also meant to say - (I had to go and eat so posted that before I'd finished!) that no woman should ever feel a failure if she has to come off HRT because it hasn't worked, and if she really wanted to go on it and stay on it... it is the medical profession that should be supporting and helping women to find the right treatment that works for them, and if it doesn't then they have BEEN failed rather than have failed themselves if you get me.....? Also just because it doesn't work for you at one stage ( eg almost before peri-menopause - doesn't mean it's not going to work a bit later - and I think again, doctors should be aware that it is worth trying again later in the menopausal transition.
The other thing to remember is that the discussion about early menopause is just that - early menopause, not early peri-menopause since the whole process takes several years so for some women it might well be too early in terms of whether HRT works or not ie possibly starting it well before oestrogen levels have fallen. If your cycle has only just started to lengthen at say 43 and you're having periods every say 5 weeks - doesn't mean that your health may be at risk if you don't start HRT immediately. However it is important to be aware that you may be heading for an early menopause. This is different from the symptoms aspect since some women experience symptoms like flushes and sweats at a very early stage even before oestrogen levels have fallen.
Minefield innit?! Hope that's not too garbled!
yriches65 - so sorry to hear your doc isn't even thinking about bone density but if it were me I would ask for this to be looked at for peace of mind - not to be alarming, just sensible given your history. I hope you manage to find a treatment that you want to take that works for you :)
Hurdity x
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I agree if HRT works for women then that is great & should be supported by the doctors. I just personally wish that for me & other women there was more help if HRT doesn't work. As I say I tried HRT in perimenopause, it didn't work. Had a hysterectomy & tried every HRT available & still didn't work. All the doctors will do is throw ADs at you. I tried a couple of those & felt worse & so gave up. I feel let down & unsupported by the doctors even private ones. I did feel guilty coming of HRT because I thought it was the one thing that would make me feel great. It took 8 awful years to realize for me it isn't that magic potion & yes I can do well without it. I just need to take supplements, change my lifestyle etc. It isn't easy but finally excepting that HRT won't fix me has helped. So as we say over & over we are all different. If it works great but don't feel bad if HRT doesn't work for you.
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Sorry hurdity if you took my post personally, but I do feel hrt is being 'pushed' on this site. Some of us just want support while we travel this menopause journey. And weather we choose to take hrt or not is and always should be a personal choice. I'm no expert but I had a hysterectomy over five years ago and I know my hormones are all over the place, but sharing how I feel with some lovely ladies on this site really is a great help. The comfort of sharing here and knowing I am not alone nor am I being judged is immeasurable. I have an understanding doctor with regular check ups to make sure All is well. I may change my mind down the line and try hrt again or go down the ad route. But I know I am still sane underneath all these emotional turmoils and that the old me is still there waiting to reemerge better, healthier and wiser from this meno experience.
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Hi Rebel2, I went to the see the menopause Doctor yesterday and told her that I'd come off the HRT because it turned me into a anxious wreck giving me an irritable bowel and insomnia and doubting my sanity. She told me I must have reacted to the progesterone (which Hurdity had said it could be on a previous post).
She said I could try a transdermal patch 17B of oestradiol or gel and take a micronised progesterone tablet 100g at night. It would be Utrogesten she would give me which she said is very expensive and not every doctors surgery can prescribe it.
I told her I'm not so keen on taking a tablet because I read somewhere the risks are lesser if you avoid taking it internally.
I think by this time she was losing the will to live. 😬
Anyway, she told me she was going to a conference on Thursday and she will discuss with everyone there if I can take the Utrogesten in the form of a vaginal pessary?
She's going to call me next Tuesday to let me know.
The thing is - the thought of trying another HRT is making me even more nervous.
Since coming off it the nightsweats and hot flushes are back again and the occasional palpitation.
If only things were straight forward. Carol. X
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HI Carol, just to say I didn't take progesterone as I've had a hysterectomy and I still got very anxious on estrogen only peach, even at a low dose. I hope your doctor is right and you find something that works for you.
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Sorry hurdity if you took my post personally, but I do feel hrt is being 'pushed' on this site. Some of us just want support while we travel this menopause journey. And weather we choose to take hrt or not is and always should be a personal choice. I'm no expert but I had a hysterectomy over five years ago and I know my hormones are all over the place, but sharing how I feel with some lovely ladies on this site really is a great help. The comfort of sharing here and knowing I am not alone nor am I being judged is immeasurable. I have an understanding doctor with regular check ups to make sure All is well. I may change my mind down the line and try hrt again or go down the ad route. But I know I am still sane underneath all these emotional turmoils and that the old me is still there waiting to reemerge better, healthier and wiser from this meno experience.
Absolutely Yammy1 - no I didn't take it personally - but just wanted to respond to your comments as there are important issues at stake! As I said in my post - yes of course it's a personal decision but for many women their reasons not to take HRT are based on outdated information (also from their docs sometimes!) - mainly left-over from the now discredited WHI study which led to the widespread reduction in HRT use. "Pushed" is quite strong word to use - I mean this is a medical site run by one of the top NHS Gynaecologists and this is what they now recommend - so it's not surprising that it is recommended by some of us on the forum. Of course it's a personal decision but it's not the same as saying shall I wear jeans or not or something like that - because there is an evidential bias now in its favour. No-one should feel scared - but need to know what the current scientific or medical view is - and then of course are free to make their own decision.
On this thread it was entirely appropriate to inform the OP what would be recommended in her position - especially if her doctors had not pointed this out. Some of us are also trying to help and support women who find that HRT is not working well for them - either to give it time or to help them find another type.
I so agree that women want and need support on their journey - whatever that is - and there is a mix of information, advice, support and everything in between on here! Those who don't want/need the information need not read it and may choose to give and share the comfort and support that as you mention is so valuable, in a non-judgmental way. I am so pleased that you have gained benefit and support from this forum Yammy1!!
How are you feeling now yriches65?
Hurdity x