Menopause Matters Forum
General Discussion => This 'n' That => Topic started by: breeze on June 14, 2017, 06:00:21 AM
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Such terrible news this morning.
My heart goes out to all those affected. Praying that the casualties are lower than expected. :'(
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This is so awful. Those poor, poor people :'(
I just hope it doesn't collapse completely and cause even more damage and casualties :(
My heart goes out to them xxx
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Doubt it'll stay up for much longer. Metal inside will eventually buckle. So many injuries & fatalities. Still flames shooting out of some windows. Why no alarms?
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Hello ladies.
I lived in a London tower block for a while and I always wondered what would happen if there was a fire.
Tragic news and my heart goes out to everyone affected.
Take care everyone.
K.
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It's terrifying to watch the pictures in the news, how brave are the fire brigade to have to deal with that, god help all thoes involved.
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The images seemed to come straight from 'The Towering Inferno'. I used to like that film, it never entered my head that it could ever be a reality and yet here it is. The words that I have found worst this morning so far is the report of a young mother holding her toddler out of the window so he could breathe. Goodness only knows what became of them :'(.
I cannot get my head round how an accidental fire in one flat could lead to that :o. As it was recently refurbished I doubt it could have been down to a wiring fault.
I hope fervently it is not a deliberate act again :'(
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Horrific :'(
Mrs Brown
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me too Sparkle, and I sincerely hope the company doing the refurb did not cut corners.
When it was on earlier at my friend's house there was some mention that the exterior cladding may not havebeen as fireproof as they said as you could see melted bits of it dropping off as the fire raged.
This doesn't bear thinking about and I am sure it will all come out in time. Meanwhile more lives have been lost and ruined and it is beyond sad :'(
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Hello again ladies.
Talking of possibly cutting corners we had a friend in the construction industry who told us an interesting tale a long time ago. He was supervising a site as some large, custom made bricks were being delivered. The specification stated that each brick needed to have a steel mesh within it to act as reinforcement. Someone on site accidentally dropped one of the bricks and as it cracked open it was clear that no such reinforcement had been included. It seems the manufacturer had been paid extra for the steel but as this hadn't been incorporated the payment would be profit!
The residents association for the block have been posting complaints about the management of the flats for months now, it's all online and makes for very depressing reading.
Wishing everyone well.
K.
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you are right and it seems it could be down to the cladding on the outside igniting and spreading the fire - horrific. Heads must roll for this >:(
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Makes me so angry reading the article in the Independent which said the cladding was added to make the block more attractive looking for those living in the expensive properties nearby.
“Due to its height the tower is visible from the adjacent Avondale Conservation Area to the south and the Ladbroke Conservation Area to the east,†a planning document for the regeneration work reads. “The changes to the existing tower will improve its appearance especially when viewed from the surrounding area.â€
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Look at the amount of schools in Scotland that were closed after a wall collapsed. The bricks hadn't been tied in. A basic building regulation.
I worked for a house builder for many many years and I saw what went on. Beggared belief at times and I was ashamed at the corners that were cut.
I feel so sorry for those affected by this tragedy. Lives lost and others changed forever.
If it was cost cutting then I would take those responsible and.......well I can't actually say as its really not nice.
Mrs Brown
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I wonder why the Fire Services don't look at high rise buildings and consider if they can/not get the hoses and rescue equipment as high as necessary? They could then go to the Local Auorities/Land Owners and tell them it will be Corporate Manslaughter if residents are seen to be at risk.
Apparently the fire escapes are metal so too hot to stand on.
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Still burning after nearly 24 hours. Several high flats up near us have just had outside cladding redone. Hope corners haven't been cut!
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It doesn't seem like 'we' have learned a lot despite 9/11 :'(. As we drive through out the UK we see newly installed double glazing units particularly in rows of terraced houses where it is obvious that people would be unable to escape from. As building regs./planning consent should be sought for new windows how do Companies get 'away' with installing such obvious hazards?
I heard earlier that the fire may have been funnelled between the new cladding and the building walls, like a chimney draws air :-\. Awful for all concerned.
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Know what you mean about windows CLKD. When we had ours done I specifically asked for a side window which can be opened to allow escape if necessary. Company said it is what they recommend, but many people prefer the look of large panel windows with smaller windows on top to open for fresh air. I once worked with someone who slept with a hammer beside her bed just in case, so she could smash her way out!
As for the funneling effect, I fear that's how recladding has been done country wide. :'(
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I think that this type of cladding will be looked at again.
When we go to places the 1st thing I do is check if the Fire Escapes are available for use and if not, give the people advice. Quietly. I don't want to freak out other visitors. If there seems to be reluctance on the part of the owners to take in what I am suggesting, Himself backs me up - he's done Health and Safety and is more forceful. I have 3 times in the last 2 years had the Fire Brigade involved when I've returned to find that the Fire Escapes have not been made accessible - all it takes is to move the green 'running man' to de-commision that particular door! It's a World Wide sign after all.
The Fire Brigade will then serve an enforcement notice in that it has to be rectified in 7 days or the place will be shut down. So anyone with fire risk concerns can ask a Member of their Local Force for advice. Don't bother with the Landlord but seek advice sooner rather than later.
I haven't seen the News today but expect this is now a state of recovery rather than rescue :'(. I always carry small torches in case the electric circuits go off.
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For anyone who is interested a donation webpage has been published in today's Metro newspaper,for victims of the fire.
The organisation is 'The Kensington & Chelsea Foundation' and the address for donations is -
www.thebiggive.org.uk/grenfell
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Huge protest at Kensington & Chelsea Town Hall. Crowd very angry. Councillors escaped via rear exit.
They will be heard. All power to them.
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It's too soon to protest. People have to take some responsibility and find out where escape routes are, whether it's in high rise office space, where they choose to live, shopping malls, theatres! How many of you have checked how you and your family would get out should the worst happen? 15 years ago we had a window moved from very far left above the deep stair well to very far right so that it is accessible from the landing. I have often thought about buying a specific ladder which stores under the bed and hooks onto the window-sill; to be flung out if necessary.
Remember to remain on the ground. Smoke rises. Which is why alarms are in the ceiling but that makes it hard for the elderly to switch off or re-fit batteries into. It was suggested years ago that all skirting boards should have buttons so that anyone affected by electricity outage could feel their way to an exit.
Many of these people were from abroad so probably felt that they should be safe, I don't expect many even thought about a fire risk or knew who to ask for assistance to check ways-out etc.. Hopefully all cladding works will be halted across the UK until there is an Inquest :-\. The owners of the cladding company must be losing sleep ........ and well done our Emergency Services :medal: I couldn't sleep last night :'(
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What does where people have come from have anything to do with it. I'm truly mistified by that. They are not stupid. Residents complained about safety for months before this.
If the council had listened and not penny pinched those people would still be alive.
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Know what you mean about windows CLKD. When we had ours done I specifically asked for a side window which can be opened to allow escape if necessary. Company said it is what they recommend, but many people prefer the look of large panel windows with smaller windows on top to open for fresh air. I once worked with someone who slept with a hammer beside her bed just in case, so she could smash her way out!
As for the funneling effect, I fear that's how recladding has been done country wide. :'(
We had our double glazing installed in the 80s and were told the company would not install windows without an escape window in each room, apart from the toilet room, where that wasn't possible. What's happened since then?
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Sorry CLKD but I wonder how you think you would have escaped in such a situation. Many tower blocks are built around a central staircase. It's all very well to know escape routes, but when they become impassable residents have no option. It's a situation which should never have arisen if local authority had spent the money fitting alarms & most importantly sprinklers in every flat.
Ju Ju, nearly all my neighbours have no means of escaping except through their front door. Our kitchen is beside our front door. If fire was to start in there, we can escape through any of our rooms.
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I would never be in such a situation. End of. I hate heights. I hate being shut in even at ground level. I think humans get complacent, 'it can't happen to us' - whether it be road traffic accidents, stroke, dreadful situations as we've seen this week. Some of the older people trapped are from India/Asia, may well not have good English skills and wouldn't think to check escape routes. My reasoning doesn't in any way suggest that I consider any of them stupid. There is a feeling that if a Service is paid for, then we should expect to be kept safe.
Do any of you check fire routes when you go into Hotels, we always do. I even check if there are several ways out when we go camping and actually, nope! In fact last year checking the out-ward route served us well when the fire alarm sounded (not that Himself heard
it >:(). Hence my obsession with carrying a torch at all times and having hand-bag by the bed ready.
This sad scenario is likely to run. People obviously need to know who is still trapped but barging into the Council Offices won't get answers any quicker than news is already being handed out. I know how I felt when ever Himself was 'late' :'( and am so grateful each time he turned up safely.
Hopefully this awful event will encourage each one of us to be more aware of escape routes and will encourage us to reiterate to friends and neighbours to check ways out.
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There was ONLY one way out.
Or two if you include jumping from the window.
Just wish I lived nearer, I would be among the protesters, that's for sure.
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To protest against what exactly? Why will protesting make any difference? Far better to be dignified and await the Report from Essential Services/Inquest which won't happen as quickly as any of us would like, I expect it to take at least 18-24 months B4 the 'real' story emerges.
In these days of terriorism the Riot Act should have been read. Obviously the Police were not expecting such a response! which bodes ill in general.
I see already that the various Centres are asking for no more donations, having been over-whelmed already. Why are people living in a hall, as shown on the 6.00 News, it is the legal obligation for the LA to house these homeless. Someone from the Council (can't remember which one) promised on the JV Show that there is monies and people will be housed. Maybe they want to cuddle together yet though :-\ as a sense of solidarity rather than being taken to various hostels/hotels where they may well feel isolated. Certainly I would want to be with others who had suffered for a few days in order to be with people who understand a bit.
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Sorry CLKD, I am putting you on my block list. I cannt read your posts on this appalling situation, and reply politely.
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I would never be in such a situation. End of.
If you didn't have the money for a private let of your choice, or a mortgage then you're at the mercy of where the council place you. Many of these tenants did raise concerns, and were ignored. The people who died followed the fire safety advice and stayed in their flats.
This is a national disgrace and the fault does not lie with the people who died.
Breeze, I'd be there too in a shot. Feel so helpless but things have got to change in this country. Austerity is killing people.
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CLKD, to protest about the inequalities in this country, the fact that the poor are demonised and not listened to, the fact that London is rich but that public housing has not received investment and that dangerous cladding is placed on flats to make them look better for their rich neighbours. There is much to be angry about.
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Can we just get back to being in totally sympathy and solidarity with the poor souls that have died in such tragic circumstances.
Feelings run high in this kind of situation. What we all have to hope and pray for is that lessons are learned and nothing like this can EVER happen again.
Come on ladies.
Mrs Brown
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I understand that they raised concerns but who with? Why not seek advice from the Fire Service if this was the concern, if the Landlord didn't respond? Do people realise that the Fire Service and Police will give advice though I do know that some people are reluctant to approach in particular the Police ....... We may never know who was approached, by which means, whether there's a paper trail - but hopefully people will now be aware that there are others to talk with if other routes don't work. We have to all take responsibility if only to encourage over-all concerns and assistance where necessary.
I expect that the concerns of residents will be heard and listed at the Inquest. They will probably be revealed at the Public Enquiry. Sadly inequality is historic in the UK and it hasn't been decided yet whether the cladding itself was dangerous; whether it was poorly fitted which allowed a 'chimney' effect or if the weather at the time added to the tragedy. This should be revealed at the Enquiries which will take place. I do hope that this tragedy will stop cladding works across the UK until the Public Enquiry Report is released and even then, more tests should be carried out.
The cladding will have been approved by the Building Dept. to update the buildings, however if it worked already why alter it :-\
What should happen is that any new-builds do not have central stair-ways as their main access, and have alternative escape routes considered and that nothing is built way above heights that the Rescue Services are able to reach. Each flat should have fire blankets, ladders as well as extinguishers [sp] and the residents should be able to have regular meetings with their Landlords as well as being up-dated on how to use fire safety equipment. We have an extinguisher in our kitchen and all the vehicles and ought to buy fire blankets ........ our Fire Service tells us to get out, stay out and dial for assistance.
I am a huge shouter when cross: but the various services are under plenty of stress and stretched to bursting point already.
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I read how devastated the owner is, the one in the flat where the fire started ......... he did try to warn as many people on his 'floor' B4 having to flee himself :'( and now 30 are known to have died.
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Suggest you find the blog on the campaign about this block of flats CLKD. People are angry, and they have every right to be so.
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Surely someone is there to enforce the Recommendations :-\
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Protesting is fine, violence is not, I hope the protests remain peaceful.
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I haven't commented here before - I don't manage to read many threads especially in this section but I can't believe some of the comments I am reading about this appalling tragedy and what people should or should not have done.
What our individual fears are about crowded places, and how we behave or plan when going into closed situations - is utterly irrelevant to this terrifying and horrific fire. I doubt any of us has ever been in a situation that comes anywhere close to this. We are all privileged and fortunate - well I imagine most of us are.
My heart goes out to all of those people, and their families and their anger is entirely justified - as Hasty says - because reports and recommendations have not been implemented and there have been similar fires elsewhere in the world. Waiting for a public inquiry is all very well but action needs to be taken now.
As for learning the lessons - my blood boils whenever I hear trite politicians or councillors trotting out this phrase whenever anything bad happens - as if it somehow makes it OK - because at least we've learnt something >:(
Thanks for posting the link breeze. At least the Government is now pledging £5m as aid but I am sure extra donations are welcome.
Hurdity x
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Well said sparkle.
Mrs Brown
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I've donated to the North Kensington Law Centre today, to try to help those affected legal support.
Going to a demo in Glasgow this afternoon, really feel strongly that voices have to be heard on this one.
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Apparently there is a Trade Journal: "Inside Housing" : [Guardian today] - that have been "warning regarding the risks of fires at tower blocks across the country and the lack of regulation to protect residents". :'( They focus particular on social housing. It makes for harrowing reading.
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My Mum was in tears earlier, we don't often speak on a Sat. but she kept asking if there is anything that she can do ....... what could I say :-\
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My Mum was in tears earlier, we don't often speak on a Sat. but she kept asking if there is anything that she can do ....... what could I say :-\
well although it must be upsetting to hear your mum in tears, it's lovely that your mum still takes an interest and wants to do something to help others, and still has empathy for others. You could tell her you're donating to one of the fundraisers on her behalf to help her feel she's doing her wee bit to help.
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Well done nearly50.
I know Glasgow has many high rise blocks, as do many cities. We all have to keep shouting until someone listens.
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Well done nearly50.
I know Glasgow has many high rise blocks, as do many cities. We all have to keep shouting until someone listens.
A lot of them have been demolished now and GHA say none use the cladding Grenfell used. Have to hope this is the case. Think this is symbolic of a wider issue of austerity and cut backs hitting services, and by extension the less well off, so hard.
Sorry if I'm ranting and it is not appropriate, I just feel so angry about this.
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There are two tower blocks under investigation in Ayr.
I also read that most of the refurbished tower blocks in Glasgow have sprinkler systems which is very good to read and must be reassuring for those who live in them.
I think that Prime Minister May could find that this will be a defining moment for her. If she doesn't keep to what she has pledged this time it could really be her downfall.
However I do think that some of her promises may be hard to keep. She has said she will rehouse everyone in the local area. Is that even possible given it's central London and in Kensington.
That's going to be a very hard one to do given the lack of good social housing all over the country.
You rant away nearly50. Maybe the powers that be will listen this time. We can but hope.
Mrs Brown
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MrsB - there are Hotels etc. and people are taking in strangers as necessary within the communities. It is up to the LA to re-home people - some of the 'richer' people have offered accommodation too though they aren't shouting about it.
Also: there's been a lot of fake news about a Press ban on reporting the number of Fatalities which has gone viral :bang: apparently supported by 'stars' 1 of which went onto TV to put her point over that the number is 'more like 150' ....... :sigh:
My Mum wouldn't donate anything nor would I take it upon myself to act on her behalf because what ever I suggested would be met with a "can't do that Dear" - if she were interested enough she would be ringing to say "I did XYZ do you think that's right?" :(. She does support village events and her Church of course may well have a Fund she can join in with.
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Always laugh at us calling those flats 'the high flats' as they're tiny compared to others. We used to always try to sneak in to have a go on the lifts when we were wee as they were the only lifts in town. ;D
Went to the demo but left when I saw a guy going round getting signatures. I recognised him as the poor boy who caught me when I fainted at one of these things last year, haven't got over making a slow of myself yet.
Wonder if May will last the week.
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I think that she has to continue, who else ......... :-X
Pity the Government/Opposition of the day can't put their niggling to 1 side and all of them act like adults, I've been saying this since I was 17 and it ain't changed yet :rant:. There doesn't seem to be any unity :'( they act like kids across the House and spend our money shouting each other down .........
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https://www.south-ayrshire.gov.uk/news/south-ayrshire-council-reviews-fire-safety-standards-on-high-rise-blocks.aspx
Quite reassuring from South Ayrshire Council
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Tnx. "Fire routes and fire exits visually inspected on a daily basis " are you able to find out by whom? Does each floor have an assigned person to pass an eye over routes and exits and is there a tick book I wonder.
ITV sent a reporter round a block [can't remember where] to talk to the Chairman of the Residents' Association which had visible blue fire signs but there were no break-glass alarm boxes nor extinquishes (sp) ........ despite these being stated on the signage. The use of fire fighting kit needs to be taught too ....... I don't think that I could pick up an extinguisher, break the seal and use it in time :-\
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Oh we did that too nearly50 at the flats near us ;D
Most of the blocks that I have been in or driven past have a clearly marked concierge office so presumably the checks are made by them.
I think you could probably do what it took to save your life CLKD. They are not that heavy.
A hotel is a short term measure CLKD. Not a home and she has promised them homes .....it could get very interesting to see how that is achieved.
I wonder how many had contents insurance. Everyone is going to need a lot of help not to mention counselling as they must have gone through an experience that very few do fortunately.
Mrs Brown
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Not many people think about contents insurance sadly. Or can't afford it probably. A Hotel can become a 'home' if necessary in the short term but these folk haven't any items left :-\. with which to make somewhere homely. Photos is what I would miss the most :'(.
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Oh we did that too nearly50 at the flats near us ;D
Haha, we used to walk to Prestwick Airport to have a go on theirs too, easily pleased in the 70s ;)
They could open up some of the empty flats owned by billionaires, that'd be a start (though I know it would require a change in law). Interesting that a majority of people supported Jeremy Corbyn on this one though. Wider issue of land banking such a big issue in London that really does need to be tackled.
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I missed out on all that fun! ;D No high flats beside us. I was such a goody two shoes I'd have been too scared anyway.
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Apparently a lady that owns student flats is offering them free of charge.
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Until the students need them :-\
Goody two shoes CG ;D
Nearly50. I used to work in the airport. Oh the ghostly stories I could tell
The news has gone a little quieter today I think and the mood a good deal somber.
Too much sensationalism for me. It's people lifes and it should not be used to sell papers.
Mrs Brown.