Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Tempest on May 03, 2017, 11:32:26 AM
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Ok, this title is VERY provocative and I don't want to cause ANY offence but please bear with me.
I have been studying a phenomena called Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome in a quest to help myself and other ladies here who are having a very hard time.
If you read this article:
http://drugabuse.com/library/post-acute-withdrawal-syndrome/
and the Wiki:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-acute-withdrawal_syndrome
(Scroll down the articles for the post acute withdrawal symptoms, not acute symptoms - very important) you will see that drug addicts actually experience the same mental and CNS symptoms as we women in menopause do over a protracted period of time.
If you use this as a comparison, Peri can be compared to a drug addict's reaction who is either titrating their use down or relapsing and using intermittently. Post menopause is like the full PAWS effect including the 'waves' of symptoms as true withdrawal from hormones continues. It's the body trying to recover and find homeostasis. Surgical menopause is akin to 'cold turkey'! :o
I hope this makes sense and once again I DO NOT wish to cause offence. It's just totally uncanny that the symptoms of withdrawal for hormones seems to share the same symptoms which I personally believe proves that menopause is a withdrawal syndrome.
Love,
Tempest xxxx
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Well yes, I would think that's about right. All our lives we've had hormones to run our bodies and brains and then suddenly it all goes awry. Withdrawal is what it feels like. Desperate to get back. Desperate for more.
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Absolutely, Sue! Also why quitting HRT cold turkey is never a good idea..... :o
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I can understand this Tempest I have tried to stop my HRT a few times and felt wretched, at first you think its fine no problem but then bang ! I have never felt right since I stopped Tibelone I took it for about two months but the side affects were awful I am now back to a patch hoping to feel better but somehow I doubt it .
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No offence taken! I know exactly what you're saying Tempest.
Except I don't think H would last as long as M? :'( xxx
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Bless your heart, Anjia! I know you're struggling too. I think because Tibolone works differently it's going to take our bodies some time to adjust back to estradiol again. I'm with you! I've learned my lesson. Hugs! xxxxx
I know, Edelweiss! And at least recovering addicts get support if they want it (we get nothing - just treated as if we're bonkers by the medical establishment most of the time)! xxxxx
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You get support on here ? :-\
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So true Tempest they think we are bonkers it makes me so mad !!!!!
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Not necessarily Tempest when I abandoned tibilone (after trialling it 3 months) and returned to my old hrt I felt better within 24 hours. I know we're all different but this one just suits me. I've learned my lesson though also and won't be swapping it again. Now if only I could sort out the progesterone/testosterone bits!!!x
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CLKD, we most certainly do! Its an absolute godsend! I was referring to the medical establishment - so many ladies are being let down there and it makes my blood boil! They should make it compulsory for every menopause consultant/endo and GP to visit this site so that they can REALLY see how this effects women.
All the ladies here are simply wonderful - I'm especially humbled that they allowed me to experiment on no HRT without judgement, and opened their hearts to me to help now that I've realised I just can't do it and have to start all over again. I pray that we all get through this OK in the end, especially the dear ladies like Edelweiss whose HRT just isn't working anymore. We need to know WHY this happens!!
As a footnote, I just want to say that the lovely Prof of Endocrinology who I'm seeing saw the Kirsty Wark documentary before I did and told me to watch it and get back on HRT. Why can't there be more specialists like him? xxxxx
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That's hopeful news, Peri! It knocks the wind out of your sails trialling an HRT for weeks and then realising you have to start over again. :'(
I think Anjia and I almost made it to 3 months but it was just getting crazy on the Tibolone. How long did you manage? I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you on the Testosterone and Prog. front! xxxxx
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This is very true and when I stayed with my aunt for a week (when very bad last year) she said I looked like I was coming off heroin and we'd joke about her locking me in the bedroom and until cold turkey was over!
Just to confuse matters at that time, I was researching heavily (had no clue it was hormones) and my symptoms led me to drug user sites and I became convinced I was either on a comedown from Sudafed... I was on it for 2 weeks for sinusitis as one doc thought was cause of head pressure and it made me much worse (as it's a stimulant)... or it was caffeine addiction as the year before I'd been having up to 1 small can a day of Red Bull as it made me feel better. GPs said both could be possible.
Of course I now know that Red Bull only has the equivalent of a strong cup of coffee (and I don't drink coffee) and that caffeine is an aromatase inhibitor which lowers oestrogen like Tamoxifen and Aspirin! Plus it dilates blood vessels which can relieve (or in some people cause) migraines.
However, the shakes etc from the volatile hormone are probably to do with the GABA receptors, exactly like drug withdrawal. So yes I think you're spot on.
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Tempest - You can say that again I sometimes feel I've looked terrible whilst changing things. I managed 3 months on tibilone, but could never get past the dizzy/sedated side effects.
Dangermouse - I didn't realise caffeine is an aromatose inhibitor, just that I can't touch coffee as it makes me really ill. You learn something new every day x
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Hi Tempest I was two months on Tibelone and then got so dizzy awful!! I did feel calmer on it though such a shame x
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Yes definitely Tempest - menopause is like quitting heroin (coping with the loss of hormone profile) and quitting HRT is also the same. When my periods stopped, I was hit with a sledgehammer, as if a switch had been flicked and I've never been the same again - exactly like a withdrawal. My body doesn't really like HRT estrogen, it still craves the natural production and knows the difference - it reluctantly accepts it. I have dark circles under my eyes and every day look severely hung over, so I really look the part too.
Guess we have to keep on trying different HRTs, it is so tiresome though - there is a phrase used on here - to find 'the Least Bad option'. For me it's the low dose patch (as I'm highly progesterone intolerant) as it's more consistent and helps somewhat in managing the hideous migraine.
For some, the loss of estrogen affects the neurotransmitters and nervous system severely.
Off topic - a friend who is aged 79 believes her body still attempts to run a monthly cycle - maybe this is true, the body never gives it up.
Hope you find a way forward, trial and error all the way.
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I don't know about this so I can't comment, but Night Owl's comment struck a chord
a friend who is aged 79 believes her body still attempts to run a monthly cycle - maybe this is true, the body never gives it up.
I believe I still have a semblance of a cycle at 60 as I can pinpoint changes in my body and mind over the month with strange regularity ::)
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Me too, BJ! And I have no ovaries...... :o
I read that post acute withdrawal syndrome in drug abuse is cyclical too - roughly on a "lunar cycle' just like a woman's monthly cycle! It must just be how the human body is programmed......Who knows the complexities of it all?
I know for the first year after my surgery when I was on no HRT I used to sob uncontrollably at the same time each month, as if I was grieving for something. One night a year in when I was bad I noticed it was just before the full moon, and years ago before my hysterectomy at 36 I remembered that my period used to start around that time. That realisation made me feel so very low as I suddenly realised my mind was in distress as it couldn't 'find my ovaries any more....... :'(
It's hard to explain, and probably sounds really odd but I've never been so distressed in my life. And it still happens now, at the same time every month
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You should read about the Wiley Protocol. It's BHRT replacement mapped to the moon phases and think it's the one Oprah Winfrey follows.
The reasoning being that women's cycles used to be in sync with the lunar phases in terms of fertility and how they would all be pregnant at the same time like the animal world. Think is was about making love in the summer months when it was warm enough and then hibernating whilst pregnant over the winter months and giving birth in the Spring. Then we got houses and central heating and it all went to pot!
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Also to add, it's the biorhythms from the moon that create our Circadian Rhythm which dictates our sleep cycle where our adrenaline rises at 5am etc. which you'll see in this graph.
https://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep_files/images/c/c9/Circadian.gif
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Thank you, Dangermouse! That's truly fascinating! Wow. I wish we had more choice in our HRT's here in the private sector as well as the NHS - I truly believe custom BHRT is the way forward but I know its a very touchy subject on here sometimes. :-\
Oprah looks great on her regime, by the way - and she manages hypothyroidism too! xxxxx
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Tempest- no offence taken ;) I haven't read the link but I totally get how you can draw similarities between the two. My husband was chatting today and saying how I was a different women to the one a few weeks back (before I found this forum) - he made an excellent point. He said 'I understand now what you have been dealing with and had you not found this support I don't want to think what state you would be in right now. What I don't get is why there are not clinics and support groups as well as easily accessible services up and down this country? When you think of the money that is put into mental health services (although we have a long way to go there too!) and yet millions of women are suffering possibly dying and are being ignored' -
We need properly trained GP's as they are the first port of call and gateway.
We need an infrastructure of services that ensures women - whatever your postcode - get diagnosed, treated and supported.
And we need an NHS that can provide tailored treatment. If men went through menopause do you think this would be in place already??? I DO!!
Dangermouse - aromatose inhibitors??? Please enlighten me :-\
DaisyB x
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What a lovely Hubby you have, Daisy! :)
I know Michelemabelle kicked off a thread on starting local meet ups -for some reason, us Scottish members seemed particularly keen (we don't get out much. It's the weather)! ;)
And yes - we DEFINITELY need all of these things! I'm wondering if we should get together a thread for drafting a letter from us members here to the British Menopause Society asking if they could present our concerns and requests to any and all powers that be within the NHS in the hope that our voices are heard. Or petition Dr. Currie as she is the Chair. I'm sure she reads posts here but if we could make a formal request, that would be something! xxxxx
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Love the idea Tempest - you know many of these wise and experienced ladies have wrote about paving the way for younger women - but what actually is changing in frontline services?? It's hit and miss from what I am reading on MM!! I am in NI but am so grateful for this help from MM that I have let michellemabelle know I would fly over if something was arranged. That said it is a big ask to expect one person to take the lead - and I did understand some ladies concerns re; security and anonymity. I though am happy to waive anonymity in favour of face to face support. Although I do agree that this may not be everyone's cup of tea!
Ps a new thread sounds like a plan!
DaisyB x
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The aromatase inhibitors lower oestrogen when it's causing problems like with oestrogen driven breast cancer and for some in perimenopause.
More can be read here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase_inhibitor
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Fascinating - just googled a list of foods - will pass to my SIL who has had Breast cancer twice and was on tamoxifen- thank you :)
DaisyB