Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Personal Experiences => Topic started by: Rosanna on May 02, 2017, 08:31:12 PM
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Hi everyone
I'm having loads of weird symptoms and beginning to wonder, as is my general doctor, whether this is peri menopause.
Here's the thing. I'm not getting hot at all, no hot flush, but I'm getting other symptoms that involve my heart and sensations of surges, etc, so wondered if I shared them here whether you could give me your thoughts/experiences.
* I'm getting many more skipped heartbeats than I used to
* I've had the odd racing heart
* I've been getting red flushed and burning skin on my face (but don't otherwise feel hot)
* I get the weirdest episode that's hard to describe, like a blow torch in my chest being turned up high, like some kind of energy surge running up through my chest, my neck, feeling like both carotid areas in the neck are being squeezed, but no pain, just a sensation (this latter one comes around the time of my period)
* Unexpected palpitations sometimes if I eat sugar, especially on an empty stomach
* I had one delayed period recently and then a 17 day period (its usually only 2 days)
* Recently I've had a crawling feeling, or like a balloon is being slowly inflated inside my chest, rising up through my neck, it's lasts 3 seconds.
* Today while sat talking with people I suddenly had a very 'active' feeling in the chest, I can't explain it really as my heart wasn't going fast, but it was like something was 'going to happen' in my chest, and I was just about to brace myself to 'face it' and it was gone and again, lasted about 3 seconds
Does anyone recognise any of these symptoms? I've had 3 normal ecg's recently. 5 years ago I had a normal basic stress test, normal holter monitor and event monitor of my heart. My blood count is normal. BP is normal. Cholesterol always been low. Also, I can walk uphill fast and enjoy being active and it never triggers these symptoms, they always occur when sat down at home, or before eating or during/after eating.
I am pretty freaked out about these symptoms because I lost my dad to a heart attack and I was there when it happened and I have been diagnosed with ptsd (but the event was 8 years ago and I have coped in a fashion since then). That said, I know these symptoms are not caused by anxiety. But I agree that I am anxious about them when they happen. I can see that the last symptom I listed sounds like anxiety but I swear it's a new symptom and was very real and I wasn't in the least bit anxious when it happened.
The energy surge feeling, I've heard that could be related to peri menopause, so thought I'd ask you all what you thought. Thanks so much for reading and please feel free to say whatever you think. I'm 47 by the way. :-)
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Hi Rosanna- :welcomemm:
If you read some of the threads on here you'll get the gist that all you describe can be attributable to peri/ menopause symptoms. They can be seemingly unrelated and scary but generally speaking they are all caused by hormonal fluctuations/ surges. I've experienced everything that you have described and they can make you feel very unwell and anxious. So, as long as your GP is happy that there is nothing else amiss, it's your hormones!
Talk to your doc, have a browse on here and decide what if any treatment you need. Let us know how you get on x
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Thanks.
If it is it's far worse physically than I ever thought it would be, and in some ways I wish I'd have a hot flush because someone said they're 'worth their weight in gold' for your health. I'm not sure how, but I wonder if they'd lower the other symptoms.
Wishful thinking perhaps, lol.
Another symptom I get is excessive thirst at certain times of the month, but I have been checked for diabetes and don't have it.....ho hum....lol
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:welcomemm:
Some ladies find that keeping a mood/food/symptom diary useful. Prior to my monthly bleed I would have intense thirst, to the point of eating celery which Mum kept in the fridge in a glass of water ::). Once the bleed began the thirst would abate.
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As long as you've been checked over (like you have) and nothing showed up they probably are down to menopause
I have arrhythmia and it's been worse through meno, sometimes a short quick cough can regulate the heart as can bearing down as if to push a baby out
They're not nice at all but knowing your heart is fine certainly helps matters
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Once the bleed began the thirst would abate.
I am very familiar with this! lol. I don't really mind this symptom though. It's predictable at least....although the thirst is ridiculous sometimes. ;D
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As long as you've been checked over (like you have) and nothing showed up they probably are down to menopause
I have arrhythmia and it's been worse through meno, sometimes a short quick cough can regulate the heart as can bearing down as if to push a baby out
They're not nice at all but knowing your heart is fine certainly helps matters
Thanks. I recently saw a cardiologist and he said there's no red flags re the heart symptoms, but to reassure me further and rule out anything he suggested an echocardiogram. This would show if the structure of the heart is normal. But my GP says that further testing will just increase my anxiety (i witnessed the death of my dad due to a heart attack, not arrythmia though but my emotional brain can't tell the difference, it's not logical).....so i'm wondering about it.
I can't believe these symptoms are not a heart problem, even though palpitations, etc, happen in menopause and peri menopause.
The 'surging' feeling is very weird and nothing works to get rid of it, have to wait it out. it goes usually after 30 mins.
Annie i just saw you mention in another thread that you can't have beta blockers due to asthma. I couldn't have them either until my doctor tried Bisoprolol, which apparently has less effect on asthma, and I'm totally fine with them, they don't trigger it at all. Just thought I'd mention that because at the time you discussed this it might not have been an option :-) (by the way the Bisoprolol does usually work, for me it's just the last 8 weeks since my hormones went out of control that I've been getting heart symptoms again. I could increase the dose but I'm trying hard not to)
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Ooh that's interesting, thank you. I don't know much about them but a member here also said because I carry epipens for anaphylaxis that beta blockers are a big no as they cancel out the work the epipens give and no dr would prescribe them. Worrying really as I've only been told it's because of asthma and so I could've potentially been taking them without realising the epipen bit
I know what you mean about your dad (and sorry for your loss) , my dad died from cardiac arrest and when my palps flared up again I did worry. I had the 24hr monitor and because it picked up the arrythmia they did the scan and exercise test but those were normal
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Burning face and skipping heart tonight....and I've blitzed the house. WTF.
Doctor has offered me Femoston to try for a month. Anyone tried this? Did it make you feel better?
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Annie, I'm sorry to hear about your loss too. I thought I'd replied to you last night but I was having trouble with my mobile wifi device.
I once had an allergic reaction that was severe and so carry an epi pen, but it wasn't full on anaphylaxis. When I asked my doctor about this in relation to the beta blocker, he again didn't seem worried, but I suppose it's a matter of degree. I didn't actually have a full on anaphylaxis, just a rather severe allergic reaction and it was years before. don't know if that helps. :-)
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If you put the product into the 'search' box on here it should show any threads.
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Annie, I'm sorry to hear about your loss too. I thought I'd replied to you last night but I was having trouble with my mobile wifi device.
I once had an allergic reaction that was severe and so carry an epi pen, but it wasn't full on anaphylaxis. When I asked my doctor about this in relation to the beta blocker, he again didn't seem worried, but I suppose it's a matter of degree. I didn't actually have a full on anaphylaxis, just a rather severe allergic reaction and it was years before. don't know if that helps. :-)
I have full anaphylaxis unfortunately, and each one I get are getting faster reacting and more severe. I had a blood test too and they categorised it at the highest level so I don't think any dr would risk it.
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Oh I'm really sorry you had that. I worry that my mum is developing something, she's very allergic to penicillin and once the doctor gave her amoxycillin by mistake and she was itching all over....luckily that was the extent of it, but I've seen full anaphylaxis in a child with a bee sting. Glad you have your epi pen and that you're aware of the condition and hope you don't need to use it anymore.
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I'm allergic to penicillin too
I've actually never used my epipens (I carry 2 as they've told me I'm high risk of another anaphylaxis soon after the first) I get straight to A&e each time where they jab me plus steroids. They've drummed it into me so many times to jab myself then get to A&E and I honestly can't explain why I don't use them, fear I guess or unsure whether it's proper anaphylaxis even though they say it is
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I can understand that, I would be reluctant. Perhaps you just didn't feel you needed to use it enough with the associated risk and concern involved.
I have another question about ectopics, why, when sugar has only just passed my lips, within 30 seconds there's an ectopic? Not every time, usually at certain times of the month....but can it really affect the heart that quickly!
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I have no idea. I don't know (apart from caffeine) what my triggers are for my heart misbehaving. Have you googled ? I haven't ever looked into it and hospital just said my arrythmia isn't dangerous just annoying
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Hi Rosanna, like the other ladies, just wanting to reassure about the palpitations most probably being hormonal. I had them for a few years in peri-menopause, day & night, in long episodes of an hour or two, before the rhythm reverted to normal then it would all start up again. Particularly noticeable after eating, when resting & at night. Had ECGs, treadmill test, holter monitor & echocardiogram & harmless ectopics were diagnosed. As I am hypothyroid no-one was sure whether due to this or menopause (or a combination), but they eventually resolved postmeno after starting HRT & changing my thyroid meds. A recent change in HRT has brought them back, further proof of the power of hormones! I agree they can be scary at the time, but if you can, try to ignore them & get on with your day as best you can and take comfort from the knowledge you are not alone.
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The cardiologist did actually explain the surges after eating, but I've since heard another feasible explanation too
He said that i.e. For me, sitting in a restaurant eating ,my tummy swells which presses and squeezes the artery which then lowers blood flow to heart and brain = dizziness and faint feeling (at home I lay down straight after eating = problem solved)
I've since heard that blood flow goes straight to tummy to aid digestion when eating which restricts blood flow to upper region
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Hi Annie0710, just did a web search on palpitations & vagus nerve (in relation to onset after eating) and thought this link was rather interesting. It's quite long, but the style is easy going & explains a lot about palps & not just in relation to eating. I'm a bit vague on what links it's OK to post, so I hope this is not against regs!
https://www.reddit.com/r/Anxiety/comments/2swpld/to_those_who_suffer_from_palpitations_read_this/
Rosanna, the link might also explain a bit more for you and help to reassure you.
Wx
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Sparkle, mastering the breathing can be so helpful in so many situations can't it?
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Sparkle, glad to hear mindfulness is so helpful to you - it's a skill that once learned, should help you for life. I went mad buying every mindfulness book, relaxation CD etc I could get hold of when peri started, as I was desperate to find a way to manage the symptoms. I did find it helpful, but had to practice formal meditation every day to get consistent results. When I developed tinnitus though, I found it too intrusive during sessions & have never since managed to get around this. As for mindfulness in every day situations - being in the moment & fully focussed, I am pretty rubbish at that! I had a theory that mindfulness might be more difficult for women than men, as we do the multitasking thing by nature. Then discovered a male friend practises mindfulness & from what he says, is far better at it than me!
Did you find it came easily to you?
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You & me both, Sparkle ;D
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thanks for all the responses, I have read them and thanks for the article, which was really interesting.....I think I burned myself out a few days ago with my panic and worry and everything...
BUT interested in your thoughts....something changed hormonally a few days ago and I noticed my mind changed too. I was still worried about the heart symptoms but somehow my brain was letting go of them and getting involved in conversations and other things. In other words I was finding myself being distracted from the worry, whereas before I couldn't think of anything else but the worry.
The heart skips also calmed down around the same time but I'm convinced that something physical happened inside rather than mental. I felt my hormones changing. I had that 'surging' feeling in the stomach and chest......well, now evidence, I started bleeding again today.....so there WAS a change and it was a change for the better.
The only thing is this is after only about a week or so since my 17 day period.... oh dear ;D
Interested in your thoughts on it all.
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Oh also, my doctor has prescribed me Femoston. She was a little reluctant, thinking I'm still only in the early stages but decided to do it. I only wanted a progesterone cream but she said she believed women needed the combined tablets, both oestrogen and progesterone.
I had a benign breast tumour 5 years ago so I'm not sure I want to take oestrogen.
Also my heart skips calm down when my period starts so would that mean that I've got higher progesterone then and it's progesterone I need to stop those symptoms?
I just think progesterone might calm the heart and be all I need....
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I'm a bit vague on what links it's OK to post, so I hope this is not against regs!
Wrensong.
It's fine to link to studies of any kind but not commercial links - so some "studies" or explanations are on websites which actually are trying to sell products - usually related to menopause and often American. Academic studies and media articles etc are all fine. Any links to a product cannot be used with the web address etc. Also - grey area - but undue promotion of particular products (not approved medicines btw - this is OK!) is usually regarded with suspicion - there have been women on here who are from particular companies so try to use to site for advertising.
Rosanna - when your period starts progesterone and oestrogen are both low - and both have just declined quite quickly. I might have said on this thread or somewhere else that my gynae GP said that palpitations are common during menopause and can be caused by low oestrogen.
Hurdity x
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Hi Rosanna, I really understand your reluctance re the Oestrogen in HRT, but I believe it's generally thought that progestins are potentially more harmful to the breast, though the studies that threw this association into the spotlight some years ago have since been largely discredited. Although risks to breast health from taking combined HRT are thought to be slightly higher, they are still very small and less than that from drinking alcohol regularly. Like you, I also had a benign lumpectomy some years ago and with a family history of breast cancer, I was very reluctant to start HRT, until after more than 10 years of very difficult symptoms showing no sign of declining, I decided I wanted to take control & do what I could to improve my quality of life.
I had advice from a very knowledgeable Gynae & one of the UK's top Endocrinologists, and both felt HRT was the right decision for me, regardless of FH & my own previous breast surgery. I didn't feel pressured by either doctor & also did a lot of research (including reading others' experiences on this forum, which was invaluable), before taking the plunge. Whether or not to start HRT is a difficult decision for many women, and no-one can make the choice for you, but if you read around and learn enough to feel confident you have the risks & benefits in perspective, this should help you feel at peace with whatever you decide. There is no need to start the Femoston immediately, assuming you haven't yet done so. Take your time to decide & keep going as you have been in the last few days with your approach to managing the palpitations and these should feel less threatening with time.
Hi Hurdity, thank you for the clarification on posting links.
Wx
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Hurdity and Wrensong, thanks :)
I feel as though I need to understand what hormones are more 'present' at what times of the month.
I've just had an awful week and then today.....feel normal again, and very little awareness of my heart......you know how a baby goes quiet once their bottle is given to them? I feel like my heart has got it's bottle, lol...
So......my period was about 4 days ago, lasted two days....what could be going on now? What hormone might be building? Oestrogen? Anyone know a good place where I can read about the different hormone fluctuations throughout the month? I want to keep a check on it....to get an idea of what I might need or be lacking....or if, indeed, there is a hormonal link.
Wrensong, that was really helpful re HRT, thanks. I'm more inclined to take it if I can work out that it's what my heart needs. I will protect the heart before anything else.
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Having said the above about hormones, I did actually push myself through my anxiety yesterday and go on a long journey and did lots of activity (even though I've been in a panic about moving around much because of worries about my heart)......and today, very little awareness of my heart.....so could it be psychological? It doesn't feel like it though, because my symptoms intrude upon me out of the blue when they happen, and it just feels like everything's calm at the moment.
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The other thing is I'm a bit 'high' at the moment, nothing major, I'm used to it, I tend to do a lot of writing and blogging at this time....but it started today.
I'm thinking it must be oestrogen building. It's just confusing because sometimes this 'high' comes just hours before menstruation and I feel normal during menstruation too (though for the last two it's not been as clear cut as that)......could that just be oestrogen building earlier than usual, because I know I've had ovulation a lot earlier too for some time now, usually just a week later..
If it is oestrogen that makes me feel better and not, as I thought, progesterone....then perhaps I should take the HRT. There are people out there saying you don't need more oestrogen though, that the body swings from levels that are too high, to levels that are too low...but to add more leads to oestrogen dominance.
I'll have to do my research but I'm not wanting this state to go away, I've felt so awful and I know this 'normal' state is temporary....maybe only a day or two...
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Rosanna, the thing about perimenopause is that our wretched hormones don't follow the predictable monthly pattern they should in earlier, more fertile years, so it can be impossible to know what is going on at a given point! That said, I'm sure Hurdity or another knowledgeable lady will be able to point you in the direction of a good technical guide, if there is not one elsewhere on this site (sorry, I'm a relative newcomer here).
As regards your palpitations, a few years before peri started I found myself having cardio investigations for these which at that time, seemed to occur in the 2nd half of my cycle just before a period was due. I tentatively asked the Cardiologist whether they could be due to gynae hormone activity, but he didn't think so. A decade later, past the time when these had really ramped up & become quite a worry during the chaos of peri, a well-respected Gynae told me she had previously worked in Cardiology, where many middle-aged women had presented with palpitations, had the full range of investigations, only for no abnormality to be found & peri/menopause to be the most likely cause. I wished I had known this at the time - it would have been so reassuring! Mine did go away within a couple of months of starting HRT post-meno, but a 2nd thyroid hormone I need had also been introduced about the same time, so we were not entirely sure which solved the palps. As mentioned before, a recent change of HRT brought the palpitations back with a vengeance & reverting to the Evorel Conti I was on before this, seems to have settled things again. So for me, gynae hormone fluctuations do seem to be at least part of the cause. If you are having long bleeds, anaemia can also be a cause, though I think you said your FBC was fine.
Some ladies recommend charting symptoms (I believe CLKD & Elizabeth Rose have found this helpful), as this way you can begin to get to know signs from your own body that may help you identify patterns & anticipate what will happen next. This kind of self-knowledge can be empowering, and may be enough to help you through without resorting to HRT, if this feels more comfortable to you (assuming symptoms don't become too disruptive or go on too long). I'd also been charting symptoms before peri began, at the request of an Endocrinologist who was helping me with the thyroid condition, and found this does help to a certain extent.
That said, I found peri a very difficult stage to live with, not knowing how long symptoms would go on, and with hindsight wish I had persevered following a failed 1-month trial of HRT in the early years, which my then GP incorrectly told me was long enough to know whether HRT was right for me. Because of this, Mum's breast cancer & my thyroid & migraine issues, I wrote off HRT as out of the question & as a result wasted 10+ years until, 3 years post-meno with good medical advice & support & having learned much from the ladies here, I decided to give HRT another try. I am so glad I did & would encourage any woman whose symptoms are severe to consider it, first learning as much as they can about benefits & risk. In my case, HRT hasn't got rid of all meno symptoms, but I am better with it than without & many ladies do feel far better with the right HRT. I am hopeful that there might be a better regime for me, but if not, I will probably continue with the Evorel, bearing in mind the thyroid condition may limit potential for the kind of greater improvement many ladies enjoy, and which you may too, should you feel you want to go down that route. Sorry this is so long, but hope there's something helpful in it.
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There's SO MUCH helpful in it, thank you Wrensong! (What a great name, btw)
I'm at work at the moment so cannot reply fully, but that is all really helpful.
I have an underactive thyroid by the way, so interested in anything you know about the interaction between thyroid hormones and female sex hormones.
I found a very interesting article today that says that oestrogen is a natural 'calcium agonist' and can therefore help women with arrythmias and even microvascular angina....
I have a hunch it's oestrogen I need now, not progesterone....My cycle is still somewhat regular and somewhat predictable in terms of what is felt when, lol...So I'm thinking I might get clues as to what hormone is helping my symptoms if I keep a record....but it does seem its at, or just after my period and before ovulation.....so that would be the oestrogen. Then sometime after ovulation the problems begin....and I read somewhere else that most palpitations occur in the 'luteal phase' which I believe is after ovulation and is associated with a decline in oestrogen...
I will do a bit more research and post up anything useful....I'm reluctant to take HRT because of the natural creativity that I get at certain times in my own cycle....Still not into artificially affecting it....BUT, I realise it might just make me feel so much better ALL the time and not just some of the time like now....so I am definitely considering it and your account of your experience has been really valuable. THANK YOU.
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Oh Rosanna, hypothyroid too?! That changes everything! First, just wondering when you last had a TFT, though I'm sure you will already be aware that if your meds dosage is not optimal, this might explain the palpitations. Being over-treated seems to be the more documented reason for heart rhythm problems in patients on replacement, but I've also had problems when my thyroid levels have been too low. If you've not had a TFT recently, I would try to arrange this & if you can, push for Free T3 & Free T4 as well as TSH. If you have recently been feeling "high", red-faced and full of energy, as I think you described earlier, is it possible your Thyroxine dosage is too high? I'm assuming you are not also on T3.
I'm afraid as I understand it, the association between gynae hormones & the thyroid is far from straightforward, with complex biofeedback mechanisms to maintain homoeostasis - which the body tends to manage less well in hypothyroidism. Thermoregulation seems to be a particular challenge! I can only speak from my own experience, which may not be typical, but feel a thyroid condition can rather complicate menopause, to say the least! To be honest, having the two ongoing caused me no end of worry, as no-one was sure which symptoms were down to thyroid & which perimenopause & I was for several years afraid I was on too much replacement. I felt almost constantly hyper - hot, tense, burnt out, dreadful insomnia due to lengthy night sweats & also lost weight. The palpitations were at their worst during peri & were especially worrying precisely because a thyroid imbalance can also cause these & it's important for heart & bones not to be over-treated. However, TFTs were OK & tests for menopausal status inconclusive, as they often are in peri, so the advice, though kindly meant, was more or less to go away & get on with it. This I found very hard & feeling alone with the combination of problems made it a frightening time, so I do feel for you. I didn't know of MM at the time, but the ladies on this site are wonderful and will do their very best to offer support & advice, so you will definitely not be alone.
As I understand it, there is a relationship between suppressed thyroid activity & high levels of oestrogen (both natural & exogenous, ie oestrogen introduced via HRT), as oestrogen increases thyroid binding globulin, which I believe reduces the amount of available thyroid hormone. However, how much this affects us at any given time during the hormonal chaos of peri is anyone's guess! I mention this as you asked about gynae hormones' relationship with thyroid & because, if at some point you do decide to try HRT, you may find your Thyroxine needs increasing.
Though in uncomplicated hypothyroidism, patients are not usually under the care of an endocrinologist as I'm sure you know, it might be worthwhile seeing one at this stage to help guide you through peri & out the other side. If your GP can't refer you on the NHS & you can afford it, going private tends to allow more time to get to the bottom of complex problems. Please keep posting and ask whatever you need, there is always someone around to help.
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The 'high' feeling isn't really high as such, it's just a feeling of well being and I can easily write poetry (which I like doing) and clean the house and tolerate rude people....lol
I'm not concerned about it at all, it's not like going on wild spending sprees or anything like that and no, I'm not flushed when that's happening. :-)
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Thanks for your experience, Wrensong, your posts are really valuable, I'll respond properly this week, once I get my long commute out of the way tomorrow. :)
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Hi Rosanna, glad to know you don't feel it likely that you could be over-treated/hyper.
Was a little afraid I might have said something off-putting! Often feel torn when posting on MM, between telling it like it is & the knowledge that it can be so easy to unintentionally write something alarming, worrying or potentially harmful. Before I knew of MM, I would have found other women's honest experiences of peri & menopause helpful & especially those of hypothyroid ladies. When I was in peri, none of my friends had got there yet, I had lost my Mum & have no sisters. If ever I mentioned menopause tentatively to older women who must have been through it, it seemed the subject was taboo & the conversation came to an abrupt end. No-one seemed willing to admit to it being a difficult time & I quickly came to think I must be something of a freak. I'm rather ashamed to say this lack of solidarity felt like a betrayal. It got to the stage where if one more woman had said to me "Oh, I never had any of that" I think I'd have sloshed her! I joined MM because I don't want other women to feel as I did and hoped I might be able to contribute something helpful, though am rather struggling with this. MM is a wonderful resource & source of support, but there seems a fine balance to strike when posting. Some members seem always to get this right, but I'm still very much finding my feet & trying to ensure what I post is more help than hindrance!
Though it's good to know how members are doing, there is never any obligation to reply - just post if/when you feel like it :)
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Sparkle, what a kind thing to say. Thank you. You've made be blush, no wait a minute . . . my mistake . . . that would be FLUSH! ;D
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Wrensong....just quickly, your posts have been perfect. Every single one of them. I read them a few times and there's loads of really helpful and valuable info in them. My limited response at the moment is my exhaustion, inability to concentrate, and just stuff, lol....I promise it's not you. I mean that, keep being you because I for one really appreciate it.
My response about the 'high' thing was just me in a mind fog, not able to say much but wanting to reassure you on that bit that it's a nice 'wellbeing' high....I probably used the wrong word.....if anything it's more a feeling of 'normal wellbeing' that I've called high because I don't get it very often these days, lol. Reading back my response, it sounds abrupt but that wasn't how I intended it....it was just me exhausted and in a fog and not thinking through what I was typing. :-)
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Rosanna - please don't worry - there was nothing abrupt in any of your posts & my comment about no obligation to reply was simply to reassure you that as I understand it, nothing is expected of anyone posting here - we simply post to help & support each other. I know so well the brain fog & exhaustion, so please do whatever you need to to look after yourself. There will still be someone here to listen whenever time is right for you to post. :)
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Oh Rosanna, hypothyroid too?! That changes everything! First, just wondering when you last had a TFT, though I'm sure you will already be aware that if your meds dosage is not optimal, this might explain the palpitations. Being over-treated seems to be the more documented reason for heart rhythm problems in patients on replacement, but I've also had problems when my thyroid levels have been too low. If you've not had a TFT recently, I would try to arrange this & if you can, push for Free T3 & Free T4 as well as TSH. If you have recently been feeling "high", red-faced and full of energy, as I think you described earlier, is it possible your Thyroxine dosage is too high? I'm assuming you are not also on T3.
I had a TFT about 4 months ago which showed my TSH to be around 1....which usually allows me to function well. Some say that might be a little in the hyper range and others don't, I expect you know, but for me, over the last 20 years, it's always been the optimum for me.
Yes I know what you mean about palpitations occurring when hypo thyroid as well as hyper.
I've never had anything quite like what happened in the last ten weeks though and my suspicions are with the peri menopause....
That said, I also had a few mild symptoms of labyrinthitis and wonder whether I've had a low level infection all that time. I will ask if I can have T3 and T4 done next time, they seem to not do it, but I will ask.
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However, TFTs were OK & tests for menopausal status inconclusive, as they often are in peri, so the advice, though kindly meant, was more or less to go away & get on with it.
Yes, I baffled the doctor the other day. I said I'd lowered my thyroxine just slightly, I'm on 175mcg, I lowered it by 12mcg just to see if the palps went away, well they kind of have at the moment but I still get the impression there are other reasons, not the thyroxine. (because I've been on that dose a long time and because my periods have been chaotic since January, and thats when all the palps started too).
Anyway I told the doctor and she said 'no, take the thyroxine at the usual dose again.' So, I've upped it again. I'm glad because lowering it like that, and increasing the dosage of beta blockers at the same time had completely wiped me out and I'm struggling with work, and even just house work. So, increasing it back to the usual dose and gradually going to lower the beta blocker down to where it was before all these palps started.
I have HRT (femoston) in my bag if I decide it's all getting too much, we will see. :-)
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As I understand it, there is a relationship between suppressed thyroid activity & high levels of oestrogen (both natural & exogenous, ie oestrogen introduced via HRT), as oestrogen increases thyroid binding globulin, which I believe reduces the amount of available thyroid hormone. However, how much this affects us at any given time during the hormonal chaos of peri is anyone's guess! I mention this as you asked about gynae hormones' relationship with thyroid & because, if at some point you do decide to try HRT, you may find your Thyroxine needs increasing.
Though in uncomplicated hypothyroidism, patients are not usually under the care of an endocrinologist as I'm sure you know, it might be worthwhile seeing one at this stage to help guide you through peri & out the other side. If your GP can't refer you on the NHS & you can afford it, going private tends to allow more time to get to the bottom of complex problems. Please keep posting and ask whatever you need, there is always someone around to help.
Thanks Wrensong, this is all really interesting. There's definitely a link with the sex hormones and the thyroid hormone....the fluctuations in my energy during my normal menstrual cycle over the years has told me that. Really high energy around the time of my period (but hit by a truck before) or just after....I suppose would coincide with oestrogen levels being low, allowing my thyroid hormone to run the show, lol.
I will ask about an endocrinologist, though at the moment I think one doctor in particular would rather put all this down to anxiety. I have an open mind, but I know for certain this is not just anxiety, it's just beyond them...so yes, I may have to go privately.
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Rosanna, just seen your latest posts & will come back to them later as I'm running late (disorganised today!) & want to look at them when I have enough time to do them justice. :)
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No worries Wrensong :)
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Hi Rosanna, will go back through your last few posts & try to answer all today. Sorry, may be very long! Please don't be alarmed by anything I write - before peri began I had had a chronic pain condition for many years & was depleted by the lack of sleep this causes, so was not in a good state to start with. I don't think for one moment you will necessarily experience all or at the severity I describe below, but I want to be honest in case this helps you feel more certain about what is happening, which should in turn mean you can take wise decisions to help you manage symptoms far earlier than I did.
Like you, prior to peri my optimal TSH was ~ 1, but difficult to keep steady - always different when tested, sometimes suppressed, sometimes above target range for replacement. That said, I think the correct dosage for any individual is that at which (s)he feels their best & that there is no “gold standard†TSH. Unsure whether you've had thyroid surgery, but mine was hemi-thyroidectomy. If you have any remaining thyroid, or never had surgery but the gland is diseased, I think the following may also apply to you. A private GP specialising in thyroid disorders told me that patients with only partial thyroidectomy are the trickiest to treat, as the disease process continues in the remaining thyroid, which continues to produce some hormones sporadically, possibly for many years. This makes it difficult to arrive at a suitable dose of replacement & mine was continually adjusted up & down, with the body struggling to maintain stability. A particular challenge in peri, which is what I think may be happening with you. With gynae hormones fluctuating erratically, thyroid status seemed all over the place. If declining oestrogen is sometimes too low and then during long stretches without ovulation unnaturally high, this must surely affect thyroid hormone levels & effectiveness in someone whose thyroid can no longer make the second-by-second adjustments it does in good health.
Labyrinthitis - Yes, any possible infection could certainly have a systemic effect, so perhaps have this checked out again with your GP? You've written of palpitations & possible flushing, both of which are suggestive of peri, together with your erratic cycle length. As I've already written at length on palps I'll concentrate on thermoregulation today.
From the start of peri it seemed each night impossible to reset my thermostat & I would lie awake from early hours, unable to get back to sleep, after what felt like one long night sweat I couldn't switch off. The term night sweat can be confusing in hypothyroid ladies who may be unable to produce sweat to assist with cooling down. I think this defective mechanism is probably what made my night sweats & flushes so long-lasting & added to my fear that something else must be wrong. Reading that flushes & night sweats lasted only minutes, this was far from true for me. Just before a night sweat I would wake suddenly, heart hammering, with a feeling of terror for no good reason, then the intense heat would spread throughout my body. Even with slow, controlled breathing (counting in & out) & body scan meditations, I often found it impossible to get heart rate & temperature back down & subdue the alertness enough to get back to sleep.
Symptoms, including palpitations, insomnia & overheating were certainly worse in the second part of any cycle, however long & eventually I went 9 months without a period then began again. The 10 days before a period became increasingly awful & I came to dread this time. I would lose huge amounts of fluid (& up to 7lbs in weight) - peeing like a gigantic & bad tempered horse! This diuretic effect seemed to force up temperature even further. Just before a period I was so hot & wired there were some nights when I would get no sleep at all. Luckily I wasn't working at that time.
During weeks & months without a period when cycles lengthened, oestrogen would seem to build, tummy & aching calves swell with fluid & breasts become very painful. Hands & feet were unnaturally cold & I was tense for no reason as if about to sit an exam. Already slow gut transit worsened in spite of a habitually fibre-rich diet, as much fluid as I could manage & all manner of exercise.
I spent the peri years almost permanently in short shorts, even cooking Xmas dinner in them. Always a keen cook, could no longer bear the heat of the oven & sunny holidays abroad stopped abruptly 11 years ago. Hubby told me I felt permanently like a furnace & I could feel the heat of his body radiating from the far side of the bed! Any fabric touching my body was enough to make me burn up at night, but without bed covers I couldn't fall asleep. I sourced & bought a 1-tog duvet for winter, which was on-off-on-off, open windows meant hubby froze & an oscillating fan drove us nuts with its whirring. A pile of 4 hot water bottles filled with cold water, sat by day on the bottom shelf of the fridge & came up to bed with me each night. The heat of my body quickly warmed them up! I became a mad woman on sunny days, rushing to shut all curtains to minimise solar gain. We argued over air-con in the car. I became so sleep deprived I began to dream vividly as soon as I shut my eyes & sat down, at any time of day. As I dreaded going to bed, my lovely hubby began a routine of reading to me until I fell asleep which I quickly did & had no recollection of what he'd read the next day!
Like you I knew anxiety was not at the root of my symptoms, though it gradually became clear that any stress (emotional, mental & even physical as in exercise) increased palpitations, flushes, night sweats & insomnia. Bizarrely, the more tired I got, the poorer quality my sleep. I felt burnt out.
It can be very helpful to practise some form of relaxation therapy - meditation, yoga etc & vital to do your best not to become over tired. Prior to peri I was able to push myself habitually, but found a huge adjustment was needed over the coming years. It's more a case of recognising that if you can make changes at the start of peri, slow down, learn to pace yourself & give your body what it seems to need, you will be far better able to get through smoothly. Sounds like a recommendation from someone who lives on another planet, I know, but the pace of life today can be so hard on us & one of the most difficult lessons I learned was that without HRT there was no option but to adjust, put aside the guilt & expect less of myself. I wish I could remember who said this to thank them, but advice I read on MM before joining was “lower your standards". I had never before considered allowing myself to do this, but cried with relief when I read it & it turned out to be one of the wisest things I've ever heard. I've found others do get used to any changes & if you explain, should understand & support you. This can be difficult at work, but I hope it won't be for you.
Not GPs' fault as they seem often inadequately trained in thyroid & menopause, but you may need to be firm & stand your ground to get help with symptoms. With the right support & understanding to help you make choices, there is every chance this will really ease your journey. I'm sorry this is so very long & possibly boring, especially as you are long-term hypo & probably know so much already, but do hope there's something useful in it. :)
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Forgot to say: daytime flushes - as well as random ones provoked by activity/stress/ warm environment, some came at regular times each day, so predictable I could set my watch by them! Whole body, not just face/neck. Wearing layers you can remove quickly can help. Also became more sensitive to cold & shivered excessively.
Palpitations came with flushes (markedly raised heart rate & often scarily irregular), but also in long episodes without flushing, for no apparent reason, as said before - especially at rest & after eating. These unnerved me so much during the first months I was sometimes afraid to be alone & even regularly feared I wouldn't make it through the night - went on for several years, but still here to tell the tale! Forced myself to go out alone despite fear of keeling over with palps (never did) & at night got up & wore tracks into carpet, walking round & round the living room to cool down & calm the heart!
Though body seemed terrified during night sweats, often aware of hunger & tummy would rumble manically (low blood sugar). Hypothyroidism can bring tendency to hypogylcaemia which really became a problem for me in peri. Reducing meal size, complex carbs & good portion protein at each meal & healthy snacks between (oatcakes, nuts, apple) helps stabilise blood sugar, which can otherwise lead to panic sensations, weakness & flushing if it falls too low. Helps to avoid sugary drinks/snacks & if you have fruit juice, perhaps take it in small amounts/diluted with a main meal. As breakfast is often high carb, I pour natural yoghurt (high protein Greek 2% fat + Onken full fat) diluted with milk over fibre-rich cereal, add nuts, seeds &/or a boiled egg with wholegrain/rye toast & always fresh fruit salad. The right yoghurt/milk mix tastes like double cream! Porridge is great but without nuts & egg is too high in carbs to sustain me until lunch. Main meals are easier to include protein - lean meat, fish, beans, though had to stop purely veggie meals to get enough protein. Also reduced pasta portions for sugar control. No added sugar muesli or small bowl yoghurt with couple of prunes(!) before bed & sometimes an oatcake. Found I had to eat a little about an hour before cycling, otherwise would crash (not literally!)
Learning to focus on slow, deep breathing helped calm body & mind & bring a sense of control in stressful situations eg GP waiting rooms.
If you're slim/small framed as I am, please try not to let body fat get too low. I think a healthier amount of body fat would have helped buffer me against extreme symptoms caused by too low oestrogen (which I understand is produced in small amounts by & stored in body fat after menopause, when ovaries have largely given up). Post-meno when finally tested, my oestradiol was below bottom of MALE ref range at <44! I now have osteopenia despite decades of trying to gain weight. Symptoms of too much thyroid hormone can go unnoticed early on & it's possible to lose weight without realising why, so please do look out for signs you may need to reduce Thyroxine as you go through confusing peri (difficult to be sure, I know). :)
Have written loads, I know, but sometimes a tiny detail can be life-changing & when I was starting peri, hypothyroid, it was so confusing/frightening it would have helped to know of other hypo ladies' experiences.
No need to reply Rosanna - there is so much, I hope it won't be overwhelming!
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Sparkle - really kind of you. Afraid I get carried away - it can be such an overwhelming time - I just keep remembering more & more to say to extent I'm sick of the sight of my own posts! ;D
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No need to reply Rosanna - there is so much, I hope it won't be overwhelming!
Not overwhelming, I really appreciate it. Not many people chat properly on the net these days, it's always facebook 'like' or no like, ;D
I'm going to read properly in a while, I've got the dreaded witch of a landlady coming in the morning, so I've got to make the apartment look like a show home.....but I will be reading properly soon and won't be overwhelmed at all. :)
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As breakfast is often high carb, I pour natural yoghurt (high protein Greek 2% fat + Onken full fat) diluted with milk over fibre-rich cereal, add nuts, seeds &/or a boiled egg with wholegrain/rye toast & always fresh fruit salad. The right yoghurt/milk mix tastes like double cream! Porridge is great but without nuts & egg is too high in carbs to sustain me until lunch. Main meals are easier to include protein - lean meat, fish, beans, though had to stop purely veggie meals to get enough protein. Also reduced pasta portions for sugar control. No added sugar muesli or small bowl yoghurt with couple of prunes(!) before bed & sometimes an oatcake. Found I had to eat a little about an hour before cycling, otherwise would crash (not literally!)
This is really interesting, because I feel if I ate this way a lot of the palps would disappear, since it is stomach 'emptiness' that triggers them (amongst other things).
The thing is everyone around me can go for hours and hours on very small amounts of food and they really look when I say I need to eat properly, or need more food when I've just had something, such as a bowl of porridge. (bearing in mind I'm pretty much vegan, so my porridge is made with water, but they don't see that).
I don't know why the endless hunger and thought it might be due to the beta blockers. Sometimes I get sick of eating because it goes on forever it seems before my stomach feels full or calms down. (and hence the palps)
I've been checked repeatedly for diabetes and nothing. So it must either be beta blockers or hormonal changes. Some days I'm fine, but if I have just one small meal it's like a domino effect on me for days before my stomach forgives me.
The amount of food you mention that you eat for breakfast has given me hope, I just need to do similar and not worry what anyone else thinks. I think it would help but I just didn't know if I would be over doing it. I've been confused because after, say, a bowl of porridge, logic tells me I've eaten and shouldn't eat any more.
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If you're slim/small framed as I am, please try not to let body fat get too low. I think a healthier amount of body fat would have helped buffer me against extreme symptoms caused by too low oestrogen (which I understand is produced in small amounts by & stored in body fat after menopause, when ovaries have largely given up). Post-meno when finally tested, my oestradiol was below bottom of MALE ref range at <44! I now have osteopenia despite decades of trying to gain weight. Symptoms of too much thyroid hormone can go unnoticed early on & it's possible to lose weight without realising why, so please do look out for signs you may need to reduce Thyroxine as you go through confusing peri (difficult to be sure, I know). :)
I always was, but a high dose of beta blockers for the last few years has led me to put on a lot of weight. I've never been overweight before, and am not eating any differently (although I get those hunger periods I mentioned, but otherwise am not) although I've always eaten chocolate daily.
I went to my GP about it and he said the high dose of beta blocker, plus two years of not having the right thyroxine dosage will have done this and he was helping me to lower the beta blocker gradually (very gradually because of my fears about the palps) and slightly increase the thyroxine.
I was doing really well and the weight was coming off. I don't think the changes in medication have brought on the palps because I actually stuck at the same dosage for about a year (things happened, bereavements too and I had other stuff to think about).....so I would imagine I'd have seen palps long before now if it was the meds regime.
I think the palps are likely to be linked to the hormonal chaos that began in the new year. The only thing I know I did differently was that I was taking an incredibly low dose of Agnus Castus for a long time and then just around Christmas time I bought a different brand. I started using it but didn't realise it was thousands of times higher in dosage than what I was taking, I mean really high. I've been wondering if that caused all this hormonal chaos and my delayed period, then the 17 day period and all the palps that were happening too.
I have to say, since taking Resveratrol about a week ago I'm feeling more my normal self. I did have a weird palp after dinner yesterday, with a creeping sensation up my chest and into my ear, was very odd, lol, but other than that things have calmed down. It might just be where I'm at in my cycle though. ;D
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sometimes a tiny detail can be life-changing & when I was starting peri, hypothyroid, it was so confusing/frightening it would have helped to know of other hypo ladies' experiences.
Yes it can and a lot of what you've said Wrensong, I can relate to and also what some others here have posted. In fact without the support I've received here I think I'd have felt a lot worse. I had no idea hot flushes could be so complicated and involve the heart, etc. So people's descriptions have been so helpful. :)
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Rosanna, like you I can no longer go for hours without eating & this began during peri. Please don't be misled by my description of the kinds of food I have for breakfast. I do have a good breakfast & think this is important to get metabolism going & sustain until lunch, but have had to downsize portions of all meals over the years, as body can't seem to cope as well with bigger meals widely spaced now. The bowl of cereal I mentioned (mini shredded wheat/muesli etc) has a few nuts/seeds added, a little fresh fruit salad on top then the high protein yoghurt/milk mix poured over it - it's not several bowls! With it, I do nearly always have a boiled egg for extra protein to spread the glycaemic load (reduce the sugar hit which can otherwise be followed by a destabilising crash in blood sugar), but with the cereal this will only be on a very thin, small slice of toast. On other days I may have the thick whole-rye bread I mentioned toasted on one side, with the egg, then just a small-medium sized bowl of fruit salad with the yoghurt mix (so no extra cereal). It is substantial, but not excessive, so easier to digest than the larger meals I could manage some years ago.
If you do find your appetite is excessive, I wonder again about your Thyroxine dosage, but the blood sugar control issues that come with both hypothyroidism & menopause, do so muddy the waters for us. If you feel the palps are related to being empty & you are predominantly veggie, is it possible that you find it hard to get enough protein into each meal to slow digestion & keep you feeling fuller longer? This requirement really changed for me in peri - beforehand I could eat a high carb meal without a noticeable sugar crash a couple of hours afterwards.
I was only ever on low dose beta blockers for a short while so can't really remember their side effects, so you will know better than me whether they are perhaps affecting your appetite or blood sugar control. They didn't reduce the irregularity of my ectopics, but did blunt the sensation of each beat.
You mention Agnus Castus & Resveratrol - I find I have to be very vigilant with any supplements & don't take any without approval from my consultants & GP. So many things can interact & jeopardise treatment. There were supplements I found very helpful prior to peri (e.g. magnesium for gut function & sleep) that I can no longer tolerate even though my Gastroenterologist keeps wanting me to take magnesium again. It can be difficult for others (sadly even doctors) to understand that so much can change with menopause & I find it frustrating & embarrassing trying to get across how profound a shift there can be to those who know little about it or have not had a bumpy ride with it themselves. Can make you feel as though you have to be apologetic if your body now functions in a way that doesn't meet their expectations/experience! The changes can be so wide-ranging, are not imagined & can cause no end of chaos :o
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Yep I hear you re the amounts Wrensong. I've been a lot more stable since a cardiologist told me not to allow myself to get hungry, drink plenty of water and add a little salt to my diet! I don't do salt usually....but it seems to have calmed things down.
The raging hunger that I was getting, I've spotted a pattern, it's always the day after my long commute and 14 hour day. And if I don't eat well on the commute day and the day after, then I have acid stomach and raging hunger for days. But I think I just haven't been eating properly to be fair. I would just eat 'something' and tell myself at least I've had that, but it's not healthy. I think I may have cracked this issue, but what you said about adding a little protein could be useful. :-)
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Rosanna, so glad to hear you seem to have worked out how to manage the problem. It's always good to hear of progress. Long may it last. The long commute & working hours sound punishing though, so do take good care of yourself. :)