Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: stardust123 on April 04, 2017, 01:59:06 PM
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Hi, can anyone tell me if an oestradiol level of 1777 pmol/L is very high.
I suffer with anxiety and obsessive thoughts and wondered if this could be something to do with it. I am 48 and still having periods.
Thank you !
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:welcomemm:
Can't help with regards HRT I'm afraid, someone should be along with advice. In the meantime, browse round, make notes. Maybe put the word Oestradiol into the search box to see if there are threads already?
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Yes, I would say that was a high level of oestrogen in your system. Do you suffer with anxiety all through the month, or just at certain times?
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In my experience, low Progesterone in relation to high estrogen = anxiety. I believe the declining levels of progesterone and surges of estrogen are what makes perimenopause hell!
Measuring levels during peri is very hit and miss, as hormones fluctuate so much during this time (this was confirmed by my Consultant last week when I asked about my own pre-op levels before my oopherectomy).
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Hi, I suffer mostly every day, all thoughts based around a particular topic, dread, panic etc. I desperately need help. Thanks lovelies xx
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Hi Stardust123
I have been suffering almost everyday for 18 months on AD & hoping my new hrt will get rI'd of these awful symptoms, have been feeling very low all weelse dispute being on the estrogen only part, crying a lot of the time, I really do not recognise myself anymore :'(
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Hi stardust just to say hi - same age and regular periods but anxiety much much worse around period time. I'm paying to go to a meno clinic for advice as gp wont prescribe hrt as no hot flushes. I feel pretty much ok rest of the month if you ignore the chin hairs, aching hips, dry eyes, lack of libido........ this site is amazing and everyone so supportive 😊😊😊
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Hi, my anxiety is every day so I'm not even sure that my hormones are contributing to it - what does everyone think ?
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I've had a horrible period of stress so my levels were higher but have got much better with the exception of period time. Have you any stresses? Is it at the same level all day? I sometimes find I am so tired I end up feeling spaced which can lead to anxiety.
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Yes, I agree with you Tempest. It's not your hormones level per se, it's actually the fluctuations between the two and the ratio which causes the misery. This is what Prof Studd told me, anyway.
When I sink into an anxiety dip it happens very SUDDENLY, literally I feel it happening in a matter of seconds. So, it makes perfect sense to me that my hormonal/chemical composition has shifted slightly. DH can also tell almost immediately too, as apparently my face 'goes a bit lifeless' and my voice 'goes a bit flat'.
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Hi :)
Not sure of the relation to anxiety but yes I think that is a high level from what my GP told me.
She has said the 'normal' range is 100-1000.
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Hi Stardust
I was told my oestradiol level was too high at 1768. I was suffering major panics, anxiety, and feelings of doom. That was in November. As I had missed 3 periods at the time I was given 100mg progesterone only to "balance things out" - it was supposed to help me. Although I have only been taking the progesterone since Feb, I can honestly say that it has done nothing at all for me. I agree with Tempest - I think it must be the fluctuations of hormones that are causing all the problems. I am 50, and as yet have had nothing that agrees with the normal description of a hot flush. But when the depression hits, its like a light switch goes off in my head. It is very sudden, like I can almost feel something surge/drain inside, just like GypsyRoseLee describes. But these spells can last for weeks at a time, and I too have wondered if this is actually hormone related. I also think its all the other things, like headaches, dizziness, hairs, odd pains etc. Taken as individual things they would not be a problem. When they all come at once but are quite non specific I think that just adds to the daily anxiety which is already being fuelled by the hormones enjoying a trip on a rollercoaster. In my experience anxiety promotes more anxiety. I'm not sure what the answer is, but its good to share experiences.
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VanessaM that is how I am panic attacks, anxiety & doom, head wanting to explode, so if I am doing 2 pumps of gel & 200mg utrogestan does this mean that the hrt will not get rid of the anxiety?
I am getting so drained by all these panic attacks, had one at the doctors last night, nurse then told me that another meno woman had been in earlier & had exactly the same symptoms as me, she said it was like my twin, made me feel a bit normal..although I am not sure what normal is anymore :'( :'(
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These are the levels medichecks give as a reference range so your levels do seem quite high
17-BETA OESTRADIOL pmol/L
Ref Range: Follicular 98 -571
Ref Range: Mid-cycle 177 -1153
Ref Range: Luteal 122 -1094
Ref Range: Post-meno < 183
I am pretty sure I feel worse when oestregen levels are high - surely there must be a fair few women on HRT who actually already have too much oestregen, not too little.
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When I was using HRT it never did ANYTHING for the doom feelings etc. A senior nurse told me she has the exact same symptoms as me and wasn't on HRT (I was at the time) and said they are her worst symptoms. I think it's the luck of the draw who gets these - and very sadly we're the unlucky ones! Hence why other ladies 'sail through it' (grrr) or do well on HRT as their only symptoms are flushes and perhaps insomnia (or for the lucky few, nothing at all)!
We really are all so very different. Its all to do with our genetic makeup, I'm positive of it. My Mum had a hellish menopause, and I've had the same.
It's also interesting that African origin ladies report much more severe symptoms, whereas Asian women report very little (there isn't even a word for 'menopause' in Asian culture)! Who knows what our ancestry is from way, way back?
I think this is why it's so very important when we read other's experiences not to beat ourselves up - if so and so is doing well after slapping a patch on, good for them! But we shouldn't think there is something wrong with us if we don't respond the same.
My Mum was on a reasonable dose of HRT for 4 years and then she threw in the towel as it did nothing for her. The only thing that helped was........time. Hard I know, but in today's climate of everything needing to be 'fixed now' we are putting our bodies and minds under huge pressure. Another interesting study I read was that about 50 years ago, women reported their number one menopause symptom as being hot flushes. Today, it's anxiety. I'm sure it's because of the enormous stress we now live under in our everyday lives.
Sending much love to all of you! xxxxxx
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I know that the supposed HRT I am on (the progesterone only) is not right for me. I am currently working with an osteopath to try and sort my headaches as he is convinced this is a trapped nerve in my neck. I am not so sure. I have been keeping a diary, and if this were a normal cycle (who knows what normal is..) then today would have been day 13. My tingling head/headache/dizziness worsened yesterday and are even worse today - could my oe levels have jumped up? It would seem about the right time of the month.
But if the level of estrogen is too high, I don't see how it can be brought down other than to completely supress the normal cycle - I presume that is possible. However, that must come with its own side effects.
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I agree with the stress issue Tempest. I've got much worse since going through a period of stress but I also drive 36 miles a day to work in a busy loud and cramped school. It's taking it's toll hence looking for something else - job interview Friday so everything crossed 😊😊 Period arrived today but I'm still anxious and yes anxiety fuels itself. It's the worse thing to have to deal with and so damned draining . Xx
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There are some good links regarding stress coping in the menopause on a supplement website but not sure if I am allowed to put the links on here?
Is it just me that seems to be suffering so badly, I just feel I cannot cope on a daily basis, when the nurse took my blood last night I told her about the AD that had pushed me over the edge & that my anxiety has been worse since on an SSRI, she did agree that some can make you worse, but how do I go onto a different one without feeling rubbish again, I am sitting here now & palpitations are firing up & shaking.
I am not too good with all these hormone things so could someone explain what could be happening, I am 9 weeks on estrogel & on the estrogen part should my hormones still be like this up & down on this part as I feel rubbish, is it my body still getting used to it? I am at my wits end had a bad evening last night & just couldnt calm myself down with breathing so ended up in a sobbing session which sorted it out.
Anyone know on average how long the anxiety can last in the peri? I mean in years?
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Dee - I too have more bad days than good at the moment, although all physical currently. The worse thing is that feel you just have to carry on. I wake up every morning just praying that maybe I will be normal. I feel everyone around me is sick of hearing me moan all the time! I am learning that anxiety and good old fashioned PMT type depression are different. With PMT you know what it is and how to handle it. And it will go. The anxiety is a different beast. For me, the trick was to face the fear. Part of peri seems to be imagining you have a sinister illness. So for me:
Nov 2015 - swallowing issues: had endoscopy, all normal = no more anxiety
May 2016 - 21 day period: had scan, fibroids only = no more anxiety
Nov 2016 - chest pain, misdiagnosed as acid reflux. Turns out to be muscular. I know this as my headaches were so bad recently that I stopped going to the gym and my chest pains stopped! No more anxiety about the chest pain.
Feb 2017 - really nasty headaches/dizziness/tingling head. Finally paid for a private MRI brain scan a few weeks ago. All normal. Still don't know the real cause of the headaches etc but I know there is nothing wrong with my brain. = No more anxiety.
This approach is all well and good, but as my husband says, what happens when I have a pain in my back/leg/arm?? He has a point.
But see if there is something definite you can pin point as causing the anxiety and see if you can face it. It has worked for me thus far.
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Hi stardust123
:welcomemm:
GP notebook gives the ref range for estradiol as up to 1480 pmol/l - but ref ranges vary between labs - you would need to see the ref range for the lab that did your tests? The highest reading is for the pre-ovulatory peak.
Do you know where in your cycle the tests were carried out? Also how old are you and where in menopause ie are your periods regular? Have you skipped any and have they changed in length or flow? Are you getting worsening pms?
There is an article about peri-menopause which might be helpful here:
https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/magazine/pdf/Article%20-%20Perils%20of%20the%20Perimenopause.pdf
Also you might like to think about the contraceptive pill to control your cycle and if you are getting consistently high oestrogen (not sure if this would be the cause of your anxiety though :-\ ) then this may well help. There is one called Qlaira that has estradiol (not the synthetic oestrogens of the other pills) so a bit like HRT and only has two tablet free days. There don't seem to be many taking it on here.
Hope this helps :)
Hurdity x
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Hi Hurdity
I am posting on lots of threads, so I think I may be repeating myself sometimes and you have certainly offered my some advice previously.
I skipped 3 months last year, but since then periods seem to be getting closer together. I am 50, no hot flushes that I can recognise as yet, but night sweats for several years. My big issue for the last two months has been the constant headaches, dizziness and tingling in my head. PMS is certainly worse, as are the boobs! Lots of tingling there too! My headaches started before I took the progesterone, so that is not to blame. I also feel just generally unwell much of the time. I use more ginger than I can mention!
I am not really sure if I need proper HRT or not.. just very confused by it all. I have been reading all of the articles that yourself and others have posted for me.
Vx
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Hi VanessaM
Thanks - my post and questions were for the OP though!!! Sorry I didn't really read the rest of the thread as I hadn't yet posted and welcomed stardust123. Glad some of the links are useful. Yes I do remember I have posted on your threads!
Hurdity x
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Just to add to the confusion (in that knowledge is power...) my endocrinologist recently told me that oral progesterone, as in Utrogestan, gets converted into oestrogen, in case anyone is trying to use that to oppose surging oestrogen in peri or pre-peri. (She recommends it for post meno with oestrogel and patches though so not sure if it's a phenomenon in peri or if it protects the womb but later converts to oestrogen).
The progesterone cream is great but the oestrogen receptors initially react negatively to it so you have to keep upping the dose and being one step ahead. I'm using 300mg today and the horrible migraine anxiety, dizziness and nausea is down to zero. Also appetite has calmed down (high oestrogen makes you ravenous... when you're not nauseous!) and been exercising today with no tachycardia. A year ago I had to keep stopping to sit down when out shopping as my heart rate would make me breathless so it really has been a miracle for me.
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Oh my word that makes so much sense Dangermouse! Thank you.
Sorry for confusion, I have never posted on forums before!
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Just to add to the confusion (in that knowledge is power...) my endocrinologist recently told me that oral progesterone, as in Utrogestan, gets converted into oestrogen, in case anyone is trying to use that to oppose surging oestrogen in peri or pre-peri. (She recommends it for post meno with oestrogel and patches though so not sure if it's a phenomenon in peri or if it protects the womb but later converts to oestrogen).
Where did your endocrinologist get that info from! It can't be right surely - goes against the very essence of the biology of the hormones and how they work in the body and specifically how progesterone alters the structure of the womb lining. Have you get a reference that explains how this is possible because utrogestan could not be prescribed if it did not protect the womb and act according to the known biological mechanism. Nothing I have ever read suggests that this could be the case. Does this endo practice on NHS? The synthesis and metabolism of sex steroids are of course linked through various pathways but they are under complex endocrine and enzymatic control. I would be interested if there is any research which demonstrates that this can and has happened?
You do not need progesterone to oppose surging oestrogen as such - except to protect the womb if you are taking HRT, although some women like the sedative effect - but it doesn't oppose oestrogen as such except in terms of the uterus. Some progestogens can interfere with the beneficial effects of HRT though to give negative side effects.
Hurdity x
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What's really confusing me right now, is why if I'm so very progesterone intolerant (according to Prof Studd, and doctors at meno Clinic) why it is that I feel absolutely fine, verging on great, when taking 100mg of Utrogestan???
Have just checked back on my diary, and for the last 3 months, during the 7 days I take Utro I have felt absolutely fine, and good. I am now on Day 6 of Utro, for the 4th time this year, and I'm feeling as well as I ever have :-\ :-\ :-\
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Sorry I don't Hurdity, it was Jan Toledano that told me on Monday as she was checking I'd never used it because she said oral converts to oestrogen. I didn't ask her to elaborate as said I'd never tried it but thought should mention in case anyone tries to use it for my kind of issues. I have read before though that progesterone can convert to lots of different hormones (like pregnanalone) where it goes to where needed and acts a lot like this in men. However, it definitely protects the womb so that's why I made that clear.
Progesterone does, however, mop up excess oestrogen and the balance of both is very important. I asked how much I should be aiming for and she said as much to stop the high oestrogen symptoms as everyone is different. She said she deals with a lot of women with surging oestrogen (and the migraines it often triggers). High oestrogen can be very dangerous, and natural levels can go much higher than when using HRT when prog must be taken, and I already have liver growths from it.
I'm also feeling better than I have in years but had to go through (and still get when upping dose) the awful nausea and anxiety but it's worth it to feel normal after so many years of feeling imbalanced.
It was also in the press this week about how weight loss is harder in perimenopause because of diminishing progesterone allowing oestrogen to go too high, which causes fat accumulation.
Jan said things will be easier for me when my oestrogen finally starts coming down. Maybe some women start out with more and so the surges are more debilitating.
Just found this on the womeninbalance.org site: 'Pregnenalone is the precursor (building-block) for all other steroid hormones. It is converted directly into DHEA and/or progesterone. DHEA converts to testosterone and estrogens. Additionally, progesterone converts to estrogens, cortisol, and aldosterone.'
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Just to add that we may not 'need' the progesterone (to protect from cancer - although my liver growths may suggest otherwise) but it provides therapeutic value for day to day functioning and that is something NICE and the NHS are not concerned about. They don't have the resources for wellness, just for dealing with disease.
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What's really confusing me right now, is why if I'm so very progesterone intolerant (according to Prof Studd, and doctors at meno Clinic) why it is that I feel absolutely fine, verging on great, when taking 100mg of Utrogestan???
Have just checked back on my diary, and for the last 3 months, during the 7 days I take Utro I have felt absolutely fine, and good. I am now on Day 6 of Utro, for the 4th time this year, and I'm feeling as well as I ever have :-\ :-\ :-\
Is the progesterone intolerance to external progesterone? I don't fully understand the hypothesis, or does it just mean high progesterone levels? Your body is liking the Utrogestan so it's creating balance for you which is the main thing. It could also be (if you had a bad reaction when you first started it) that your body is now used to it and responding how it should.
My endo uses a start stop approach so you get relief from initial resistance but she said some women just push through at high dose and hate the stop and start! I can't really do that as my nausea is the type where you just want to die than face another minute of it and I have management work commitments now. However, the way Utrogestan is stopped and started has always seemed like it never gets a chance to be accepted by the brain. I guess it's too potent to take every month from day 15-28 (to more closely mimic the cycle)?
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Hi, sorry I think I missed your last post dangermouse.
I really don't know whether I'm intolerant to my own, or external progesterone? I guess I must be intolerant to my own, hence a life time of PMS, followed by severe PND. And, I think I have read that as you get older you can become more intolerant to it?
I felt absolutely fine this week whilst taking Utrogestan, though I have been craving sugary foods. But I took my last one Friday night and woke up yesterday morning feeling decidedly 'off' and anxious and low (yet, again), and I noticed I'd started with some brown spotting.
It was too soon to be a withdrawl dip, so not sure if the Utro has/hasn't affected my mood at all.
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There are two schools of thought re what causes PMT but if it gets progressively worse from age 35 up to menopause it's likely to be too low progesterone.
Both oestrogen and progesterone start falling over the last week of the cycle (although graphs suggest prog comes down first but I'm not sure how accurate they are!). However, our own progesterone starts declining from about age 35, where oestrogen stays high until just before the menopause (52 average) when it completely nose dives and causes (I presume) the hot flushes, dryness and the more classic meno symptoms.
Oestrogen can go very high in the second half of the cycle but progesterone opposes it and keeps it from surging too much. However, if PMT was worse when in 20s and lasted for the whole 2nd half of the cycle then it could be the progesterone intolerance issue your mention. Although that should get better from 30s as prog starts falling.