Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: GypsyRoseLee on March 22, 2017, 01:10:29 PM
-
Finally finished my script for estrogel from Prof Studd. last week. My GP issued me with a script for more pump packs, but when they arrived they were different and called Oestrodose, not Estrogel and the packaging was different. I checked the box and apparently, it has been repackaged under licence here in the UK. I started using it at the weekend, and since then haven't been feeling good at all. Headachey, nausea but also hungry at the same time, like morning sickness. Sleeping was bad last night and my mood feels very anxious and jittery. Haven't had this for a few months.
According to the new packaging, the ingredients and dosage are the same as estrogel. But I don't think it's a coincidence. It oestrodose cheaper or something? Anyone else had experience of this?
-
I seem to always get the Oestrodose given to me at the Pharmacy (think I've only had Oestrogel once). The Oestrodose I have here has a turquoise lid? I'm often questioning whether HRT is helping me - perhaps this is why?
-
Have long have you been using it Liz?
-
Have a wee look here
https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php'topic=33534.0
-
That's very interesting nearly50.
My head is telling me that the gel MUST be identical, as surely there are very strict laws in place? But my heart is telling me that I really don't feel right at all, and it's just like I used to be months ago.
But I have double checked and all the ingredients, and the percentages and everything are the same. It's just that mine was purchased from Besins in France, and repackaged in Doncaster and called Oestrodose.
-
Digressing slightly, I take Thyroxine and was on branded Eltroxin for many years. then it was stopped and the manufacturing company brought out a Levothyroxine generic, same ingredients, same quantities, same everything. My thyroid levels became unstable. My GP thought that I was imaging it but my endocrinologist explained that there can be up to a 15% difference in the way the body absorbs different brands of medication. When I found a brand that suited me he had it added to my repeat prescription that I have to have the same brand EVERY TIME. I have remained stable ever since.
GRL you are not imagining it and your body might be absorbing the different preparation differently despite the recipe being the same on paper. Some of the fillers/added ingredients could be a different quality. You are not going mad.
-
Give the Prof a ring and ask the question? We know our bodies ;-) and as BJ explains, anything slightly different in the preparation of a product can cause problems.
-
Have long have you been using it Liz?
Two years, although I haven't ever gone about 1.5-2 pumps per day, I must admit.
-
Seems like Oestrodose is much more common than the Oestrogel....... my friend who lives in another area, always gets Oestrodose too. Not sure how I can ask for Oestrogel, the Pharmacy always seem to have/order the Oestrodose.
-
Stellajane, I have tried looking to compare both products but can't find the information for the oestrodose pump packs. Looking at the packaging, and the contents seem the same on both. same percentages etc.
-
Good to hear from you GRL!
I'm MIS71MUM but messed my account up by mistake.
The last I remember you were going to trial tiblone/zoladex. Did you change your mind? Xx
-
The chemist I got mine from today has both the types.
-
I have just checked my repeat prescription, and it says 'Oestrogel Pump Pack o.6% gel (Besins HealthcareUK Ltd).
The pump packs I had from Prof Studd's prescription were manufactured by Besins, but gave an address in Belgium stated on the box, and the pump packs themselves didn't have any relabelling, or stickers on them, or anything. Their ingrideints were listed as:
Active Ingredients
"Each metered dose (1.25g) contains 0.75mg estradiol 0.06% w/w
Other ingredients:
Carbomer
Ethanol
Triethanolamine
Purified water
Product Licence Holder:
Besins Healthcare, Brussels
I have checked the packaging of the Oestrodose pump pack, and it reads:
Active Ingredient:
estradiol 0.6% w/w
Each metered dose (1.25g) contains 0.75mg estradiol
Also includes:
Carbomer
ethanol
triethanolamine and purified water.
Manufactured by Besins, Belgium NV
Exploitant: Laboratories Besins International, Montrouge - France
Procured from within the EU and repackaged by Animed Direct Ltd, Hendon, London
Product Licence Holder:BR Lewis Pharmaceuticals, Doncaster
So, it looks like the same ingredients, but different licence holders. And, for some reason the 'exploitant' (which means farmer, manager in French) is in France.
-
When I used gel I found the Oestrodose was not as effective as the Oestrogel. My GP wrote Oestrogel on the prescription and I asked the pharmacy to make sure it was the Oestrogel I had. They were really helpful in getting it for me.
There was a manufacturing problem at one time which made it more difficult to get hold of - maybe that's happened again? :)
-
Hi Salad
How could you tell the oestrodose wasn't as effective?
I'm sure mine isn't as effective. Yesterday afternoon I felt unusually hot and a bit sweaty (never normally have this), and had a headache all day with a touch of diarrhoea. I felt very unfocused and low, and quite panicky at times. These are all symptoms I associate with not enough oestrogen.
-
And, I felt really quite nauseous when I woke up this morning too. Is nausea a sign of low oestrogen, does anyone know?
-
Hi, GRL!
Yes, I had EXACTLY the same issues as you and I brought this to Professor Lumsden's attention at a previous appointment.
It's NOT your imagination! I also developed a rash on Oestrodose that I didn't have with the Estrogel!
I have now given up on HRT altogether and I'm glad of it! I was sick to death of the ups and downs, product inconsistencies, supply problems and being palmed off with sub standard generics which did not work as well as the 'branded' products. We're definitely getting short changed here and and then led to believe it must be in 'all in our heads' when we query it.
Sending hugs your way. xxxxx
-
Hi Tempest
Did you feel better on the oestrogel, then? How did the oestrodose make you feel?
-
Hi Stella
Definitely not a virus. I have a bit of backache, and mild period pain cramps and my period is due. So I think it's all connected. Last month my period came and went without a murmer. The only difference this month is that I have been using oestrodose for the last week.
-
Hi GypsyRoseLee
I'm really sorry you're having a problem again.
It just occurred to me when I read that you have a period due, could this be that your own hormones are interacting here? My surges and plummets increased the further into peri I moved. HRT, at no matter what level, was unable to suppress my own cycle. I wonder whether the Oestrodose/Oestrogel change may be coincidental.
Forgive me for butting in here as I'm not too familiar with your history: I can only say the increasingly dramatic side effects I experienced as I moved further into peri were fairly overpowering especially just before a period. That was always my danger zone.
I would speak to a pharmacist, more than one if possible and if you still feel unconvinced try Prof Studd's secretary. Explain you are feeling increasingly anxious about this and all you need is some quick advice.
I hope you find an answer soon and feel better x
-
Hi Elizabeth
I think what is happening is a combination of my period being due, and the oestrodose not being as effective? Last month my period came and went with no problems. Same the month before. I suppose it could be that my own cycle is having a more forceful surge this month?
I have just taken delivery of a box of Estrogel, sent from the pharmacy which supplies Prof Studd in London. I got his secretary to fax my script through to them, and it has just arrived by special delivery. Can't fault such excellent customer service.
I have just applied the estrogel and can confirm it is definitely thicker in consistency than the gel in oestrodose, and it smells faintly of surgical alcohol, and the oestrodose gel doesn't. So SOMETHING is definitely different between the two.
-
Well thank goodness you've had a supply delivered. Hopefully all will calm for you. Every single month/period started to differ for me. Some slipped by unnoticed whilst others were a nightmare. Interestingly, the short often anovulatory cycles were always the worst.
Good luck, hope all calms x
-
Thanks ElizabethRose
I don't know how to tell if I have an anovulatory cycle or not? I suppose I got complacent thinking I'd had a few months with no problems, then this happens. Did you find the fluctuations calmed down in time?
-
Thanks Stellajane
I don't know about the legal implications, but the gel is definitely a different consistency and smell.
-
GypsyRoseLee, read Machair's thread below. It details us all describing our cycles both ovulatory and anovulatory. None of us were using HRT so that may therefore complicate you identifying what is happening to you. You may be able to recognise some common signs though.
https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,31902.0.html
I've also cut and pasted a response I gave Menomale when she asked me a similar question. Hope it helps!! x
Re: Joint pain flares when oestrogen levels suddenly drop.
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2016, 07:00:33 AM »
ReplyQuoteModifyModifyRemoveRemove
Hi Menomale
Not a silly question at all that would be a sensible conclusion. Unfortunately I'm ridiculously reactive/sensitive to hormone change so as my body reacts like litmus paper, it's very easy to read the signs.
For many years I've had specialists from a number of disciplines trying to manage my chronic migraine. Bloods have been taken regularly; fertility monitors were used daily, temps were monitored and comprehensive daily records kept. All tests confirmed what I already knew was happening. I've been menstruating for 44 years now, despite the chaos of peri, I can still pretty much read my body like a book.
If I ovulate, slippery egg-white type cervical mucus appears just before ovulation, I get ovulation pain and a slight bloody show and front of breast tenderness. The mucus would last for about 2 days then disappear, as would the breast tenderness. The bleed would arrive about 13 days later accompanied by period cramps, swollen breasts, bloating and migraine that could rebound for anything up to 13 days. Then the whole thing would start again. If I ovulate, this happens without fail.
If the cycle is unovulatory, slippery egg-white type cervical mucus builds and front of breast tenderness starts. There is no ovulation pain and no bloody show. The mucus stops suddenly for a couple of days and then rebuilds, the breasts swell hugely, necessitating bigger bras and they become very, very painful. I start bloating and can literally put on half a stone. All can continue like this for anything up to 6-7 weeks. These oestrogen highs can be off the Richter scale, all has been measured.
A sudden drop manifests itself as a sudden cessation of all of the above symptoms: it feels like I've been slung against a wall. I pee constantly, a monster migraine kicks in which is what happened this weekend and which can rebound for ages. Sometimes I will then get an anovulatory bleed. The cervical mucus is still present and mixes with the blood loss. It looks different to the loss of a normal period. My body is pretty adept at shedding any endometrial build up from these oestrogen surges. It's had plenty of practice!
This sudden surge of joint pain with a crash and bleed is new to me, I haven't noticed this before.
-
That is so useful Elizabeth, thank you so much.
I recognise much of what you describe, though I have never yet had a month where I don't have some sort of bleed around the 25th of the month. But, yes I can appear 5 months pregnant because I am that bloated around my stomach.
Since the weekend I have noticed I've been getting joint pain in my toes and ankle and knuckles, which I haven't experienced since going onto 4 pumps of estrogel last summer. This would correlate with starting the oestrodose gel, so presumably my body not getting the oestrogen it needs, especially as I was entering my late luteal phase, with a period imminent?
-
Stella - it took nearly a year for me to realise I was suffering with the peri menopause. I had seen 2 female GPs who refused to believe I could be peri menopausal because I was 'only' 43. It was only when I saw a male GP whose wife had suffered in the peri menopause, that I was correctly diagnosed.
-
Good to hear from you GRL!
I'm MIS71MUM but messed my account up by mistake.
The last I remember you were going to trial tiblone/zoladex. Did you change your mind? Xx
Sorry I missed this Mis71Mum :)
I was going to trial it, yes, but bottled out at the last minute. Then since the start of the year I have felt I was really improving, so decided to stick with the estrogel + utrogestan regime, still. Still had several bad days, but not as severe as before.
How are you?
-
Could be, or it could be that your own cycle plunged which for me accounted for increased joint pain etc towards the later stages of peri. It could just be your own hormones dong their thing! It's a minefield!
If you are getting a bleed on the 25th day regularly that could be your own cycle which in peri often reduces early on. When on HRT my own cycle was completely erratic, 9 days upwards, some months I had 3 bleeds, one HRT induced and two short cycles of my own. It was horrendous.
If I were you I would chart, keep a detailed daily record. Every specialist I saw insisted upon it. Don't get bogged down with detail, just take three mins each day to record what is happening. i.e. swollen breasts, bloating, changes in mucus, joint pain, any bleeding however minimal, ovulation pain etc etc. A story will emerge quite quickly.
Good luck to you, this is such a trying time! x
-
That's a good idea Elizabeth, I used to keep a daily diary last year but as I improved I stopped.
I do think my own cycle has somehow crashed big time, this month? Despite my specialised HRT I still think my own cycle is quite powerful, and determines how I feel day to day. For the last 2 years my periods have been very light, and only lasting 2-3 days max. Since Xmas they have been barely noticeable, I don't even really need a panty liner, which makes me wonder what 4 pumps of estrogel are doing, because they're not making the lining of my womb build up much at all? And it's only ever a brownish flow I get. Some months I don't even get a withdrawl bleed when I finish the Utrogestan, either. But I never suffer with bloated, painful breasts anymore (I used to).
It's a mystery - I wonder if I have a very high tolerance to oestrogen, and can absorb far more of it, without physical problems, than most women?
-
Hello GypsyRoseLee! Perhaps the high dose of oestrogel is actually suppressing your cycle. Normally 4 pumps of oestrogen when added to your own cycle would definitely thicken the lining as it is a high dose - so either you're not absorbing it or it is suppressing so keeping your oestrogen levels more constant. However the crash you experienced doesn't bear this out?
I know blood tests are not especially reliable but in view of your situation and the regime you are on - have you had a blood tests or two - might be illuminating?
I agree I could not find any info about Oestrodose on the web - the SPC is not available as a separate product. If you can actually feel the difference in consistency with your fingers (ie if one is runnier than the other) then this could account for absorption differences although you should have reserves in your system to keep levels fairly even?
Thinking aloud here :)
Hurdity x
-
Hi Hurdity
I last had bloods done last summer. I'd been on 4 pumps for about a month, but my oestrogen was still only about 604 p/mol, I think? And Prof Studd said he didn't think that particularly high at all, he has patients will oestrogen levels over 1000 p/mol.
It would make sense if the pumps were mainly suppressing my cycle, and I feel okay, but then occasionally my cycle breaks through and causes these symptoms? The headache, nausea, aching joints, interrupted sleep, diarrhoea etc are all things I associate with hormonal fluctuations. Whether that's too high, or too low, I just don't know? If I knew, I would know whether to lower my pumps for a few days, or increase them.
I applied 4 pumps of oestrogel at about 10.30am this morning, and since lunch I have felt much better, much more calm and clear headed. I just don't know if this is a coincidence?
-
Hi Salad
How could you tell the oestrodose wasn't as effective?
I'm sure mine isn't as effective. Yesterday afternoon I felt unusually hot and a bit sweaty (never normally have this), and had a headache all day with a touch of diarrhoea. I felt very unfocused and low, and quite panicky at times. These are all symptoms I associate with not enough oestrogen.
When I used the Oestrodose I still had symptoms but using Oestrogel I was symptom free - hope you get sorted soon :)
-
I'll be very interested to hear what you discover Stellajane. I think something odd must be going on. My pump of oestrodose also has a large white sticker on it, saying it's Oestrogel too.
-
Mine does too!
-
Right, I have just studied the estrogel pump pack cannister and box, supplied by Prof Studd's pharmacy. The word 'Estrogel' actually has a big loop attached to the left side of the capital letter E, so it looks like it 'could' say OEstrogel. Does that make sense?
But I have found this article http://surmeno.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/troubleshooting-gel-hrts.html which talks about Estrogel and Oestrogel as two separate products.
I am confused :-\
-
It's confusing stella. And I suspect that even if we took it to a pharmacist they would turn their noses up, and insist it's the same product, and we should just put up & shut up.
-
When I see Professor Lumsden next, I will speak to her again about this. I spent some time showing her the two different products and she certainly took my concerns on board. I can confirm that the Oestrodose IS runnier in consistency, just as GRL says. I know I certainly didn't feel anywhere near the same on the Oestrodose and couldn't secure a further supply of the Oestrogel despite phoning a good number of pharmacies.
-
17b estradiol is the full chemical name of the hormone but it's often shortened to estradiol (and it's paired with other chemical absorbers like valerate in pill forms).
Oestrogel is a brand of estradiol and is more expensive if bought privately (I tried it when thought I needed it and still have the pump).
The main difference with brands is the carrier and, from what I know of progesterone cream, the better absorbed carriers like Versabase mean the product is more expensive.
As the (probably) cheaper one is runnier then it will evaporate on the skin more quickly and you will absorb less. The thicker carriers will hold it there for longer before the alcohol dries it out.
I suspect the 4 pumps were suppressing your own fluctuating oestrogen and the poorer absorber has allowed your own oestrogen to leap about again.
-
Well, we certainly can't all be imagining it? If you ever decide to try Estrogel again, I can give you the contact details of the pharmacy in London who supply Prof Studd. They always have it in stock. Probably because of the high number of private gynaecologists nearby (they only fulfil private prescriptions).
My delivery of Estrogel arrived Thursday mid morning, I applied 4 pumps immediately, and by 2pm I was already feeling much better, which has carried on through today. This surely can't be a coincidence, can it???
I will be very interested if Prof Lumsden could shed any light on the differences between the two. Will you keep us updated :)
-
What you say makes sense dangermouse. I've looked at the ingredients, and they're the same on both products, so does that mean the 'carrier' will be the same, too?
But something certainly changed, and I felt I was rapidly heading back to those awful days of this time last year, when I was waking at 4am filled with dread, and that was happening within only 2-3 days of using Oestrodose. Now, having been back on Estrogel for 2 days, I feel so much better.
This can't, can't be a coincidence???
-
The carrier is often hidden from ingredients as it's a secret formula so that it can't be copied, like KFC...
Besins list them separately here http://www.besins-healthcare.com/index.php?mode=product&submode=2&group=2
and the only detailed ingredients I could find for both are:
Oestrodose:
The drug brand named Oestrodose contains generic salt-Estradiol Hemihydrate and is manufactured by Besins.
Generic Salts
Estradiol Hemihydrate
Available types of drugs
Gel; Topical; Estradiol Hemihydrate 0.06%
Oestrogel:
of gel contains 0.6 mg of estradiol (as estradiol hemihydrate); excipients: carbomer 980, triethanolamine, 96% ethanol, purified water.
I suspect the hemihydrate is the patented ingredient that makes it technically a drug (and thus can be trialled and BMA and FDA approved) and the excipients are the bits that differ.
Besins either made a cheaper and a more expensive version or it's to do with their move to Asia and perhaps different manufacturing plants having access to different ingredients (the oestrodose one seems to be in the U.K. perhaps to avoid import fees?). The original Brussels formula seems to be the 'quality stuff'.
More importantly, this is what Friday night TV has driven me to.
-
Thank you for finding that out dangermouse. I feel relieved, a bit, that there is actually a chemical difference between the two, and that an informed person like you can spot it.
So if the carrier is different, could that have an effect on how my skin absorbs the oestradiol?
-
I agree stella, it's hard enough finding the right balance with HRT, without pharmacies muddying the waters with different brands.
I'm happy to swap my oestrodose packs for your estrogel, if you're interested?
-
Yes absorption is all about the carrier! For some like Stellajane, the weaker absorption suits her and so yes it's about consistency in what you're prescribed.
I can understand the pharmacies not being aware of the differences though as the drug companies don't have to disclose non-active ingredients.
The same would apply where generics are prescribed for other oral meds and patients can feel the difference compared to the brands. I could also feel the difference between Brevinor and Ovysmen (2 BCPs which had the same oestrogen and progesterone ingredients and amounts).
Plus some people get allergic reactions to different fillers used in oral meds.
-
I second these comments. I have my thyroid medication brand specific on my repeat prescription as chopping and changing the brand causes instability in my blood levels.
-
Hello everyone,
I realise this thread has gotten a bit cold - but was there ever a conclusion as to where one can get Estrogel rather than Oestrodose?
-
Bumping for Donna-paul.
Conolly X
-
Omg I've had major set back even my family noticed panic attack and aniexty as well as awful migraine it was like I wasn't taken anything again. Skin all itchy as well. I be watching this space. Thank you Conolly and hurdity for your input. Just hope this bad head goes soon also my blood pressure has shot up always normal?
-
Hi to everyone
I have been a member here for several years, but this is my first post.
Been given the Oestrodose, instead of OESTROGEL, and have similar symptoms reported earlier in this thread.
Is any further information available, as my local Boots says they cannot obtain OestroGEL and they are blaming Brexit . . .
Apparently this is true.
JayJay
-
Try another pharmacy. A different pharmacy may have different suppliers x
-
My pharmacist at first said he couldn't and when I just became unwell on oestrodose he rang the manufacturer and said there is something different. He now gets me estrogel I also filled in the yellow card what someone recommended. Although someone said the menopause dr said they are the same to me she said it was weaker version.
-
I was given Oestodose instead of Estrogel last year. Didn't get on with it at all, made me nauseous and got awful migraines. Within days of changing back to Eatrogel I felt well again x
-
Hi
Thank you for your responses.
It is so good to know that I am not alone. I was beginning to think I could add delusional paranoia to my list of meno symptoms!
This forum has been enormously helpful since I first joined three years ago. At that time, I had been off the oral contraceptive pill for six months, and despite being, as I thought, very prepared for it, was experiencing some very unpleasant symptoms.
My joint pain was so bad that my GP (empathetic woman, little younger than me) wanted me to have an X-Ray.
Why?
'So that we can put you down for a hip replacement). Oh, no. I don't think so !
It was at this point that I joint this forum, and had a consultation with Dr Curie. The best money I have spent in years, IMHO.
Since then, apart from the usual ups and downs, I have not been too bad.
I am on the same regime as Hurdity (I think), but this Estrodose has been bad news.
Will take your advice and try to get a new prescription for the OEstrogel, and let you know how it goes.
Once again, my thanks.
Jay
-
Hi
I have been able to order a prescription for the GEL, which I will collect from the Dr's later.
What could possibly go wrong ?!
Jay
-
Hello !
An update -
Collected prescription but did not state actual GEL, so took it to Boots and they said they would see what they could do.
This morning, they phoned to say they had received the parallel import (DOSE) as they could not get the GEL, so I have asked them to keep trying.
The programme with Mariella Frostrup has obviously raised awareness of this regime.
Will keep you posted
Jay
-
Hello
A few days into the OESTROGEL, and much improvement on thr Dose version.
Symptoms are more stable, and less spikes.
I may be fanciful, but hey - if it works for me, then I will stick to the gel version.
Just hope Brexit does not cause any more supply probs . . .
Jay
-
Tnx for the update! Maybe keep a diary?
-
Hello
Thank you for your reply.
Sad, I know, but I do keep quite a detailed journal of my medication / vits / exercise / Dr visits and conversations.
Actually, it is a very valuable tool because you always think you will remember things, but it is surprising how events melt into each other over time.
Same applies to writing down food intake in a diary, a habit which I acquired in the 1970's when I first joined Weight Watchers. Blimey - what a shock to count up the cals / points / whatever at the end of the day !
(And yes, booze does count)