Menopause Matters Forum
General Discussion => This 'n' That => Topic started by: flutterby on December 30, 2016, 10:21:42 PM
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I know there are a ladies that by choice, circumstances or not able to conceive don't have children like me. Have you ever been made to feel an oddity or even second class?
I ask this as a few days ago a close friend who has a 3 month old grandson was talking about her cousin visiting and said how clueless she was when holding the baby and said that even I was better. I was a bit upset by this but I let it go, but when I saw here again tonight she said virtual the same thing. I remember being really mortified at work when the baby of one of my colleagues started to cry when I had hold of him and someone took him and said "they can tell a mother".
I love cuddling babies and children and I did have to handle prem and poorly babies as part of a job so I'm not nervous with little ones.
I know I should let these comments go but quite a few comments over the years stick in my mind
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God yes, countless horrible remarks have been made to me over the years. 'you wouldn't understand, you're not a mum', 'your time will come' in a loud stage whisper when a colleague announced they were pregnant and only last week I was told in a vey patronising tone that I was only slim because I hadn't had children. Mostly from colleagues though, not anyone I would call a friend. Would be annoyed at that.
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People can be very rude sometimes. I often get patronising comments. I look a lot younger than my 57 years and people always put this down to "you've never had children". Well if children age you that much thank god I never had any. I look good for my age because (a) I look after myself, (b) I eat right and exercise, and (c) I have good genes. I doubt children have anything to do with it and it's just an excuse women use to be lazy. It wouldn't matter if they did or didn't have children. Maybe I should start telling these "aging" mothers that they look old for their age because they're fat and lazy..... but that would be rude wouldn't it!! Funny how others can make rude comments, but if you say anything in response they get upset. On the other hand, we are supposed to just suck it up and laugh at their “jokesâ€.
I am child-free by choice. I've never had any maternal longings at all, so I don't view my status as being sad. However, when someone asks me if I have any children and I say no, there is always that "pregnant" pause (sorry for the pun) where I'm sure they're thinking “oh poor barren thingâ€. Usually I say I'm happily child free to avoid any awkwardness.
I have to say I do get a bit bored with "baby" talk when I'm with some friends. A lot of them have children and/or grandchildren so there is always the inevitable talk about children, and find it really tedious. Some women just don't seem to be able to talk about anything else. One on one they're fine, but in a group they're boring.
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Dana, I would agree with you on your reasons for looking good at 57. I'm the same age and we have a daughter, but I often get taken for younger than that, too, and am reasonably slim. I don't think having children should be an excuse for letting yourself go.
My mother was baby-daft and used to say to us that she was so sad when we all stopped being babies. (Yes, honestly!) This put me off baby-talk permanently and I still feel uncomfortable when someone else's baby is passed round for cuddles. In fact, when Hubby and I were newly married, a young mum on a train palmed her baby off on to me while she went to the loo - I didn't have a clue how to hold him and by the time she came back, the little darling was howling the place down and waving his arms and legs about all over the place! Cringe...... :o
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I know there are a ladies that by choice, circumstances or not able to conceive don't have children like me. Have you ever been made to feel an oddity or even second class?
I ask this as a few days ago a close friend who has a 3 month old grandson was talking about her cousin visiting and said how clueless she was when holding the baby and said that even I was better. I was a bit upset by this but I let it go, but when I saw here again tonight she said virtual the same thing. I remember being really mortified at work when the baby of one of my colleagues started to cry when I had hold of him and someone took him and said "they can tell a mother".
I love cuddling babies and children and I did have to handle prem and poorly babies as part of a job so I'm not nervous with little ones.
I know I should let these comments go but quite a few comments over the years stick in my mind
Not in a really obvious way but my younger brother has never trusted me to take his 2 small boys out. At least that is what I suspect. When they were toddlers, i did suggest it but they never took me up on it so i gave up. I did want to have kids but didn't meet the right man at the right time. now they are a bit older (5 & 7), i wouldn't want to take them out together because the older one can be quite difficult but I'd be happy to take the younger one out.
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This takes me back to when I was young and trying to get a job - engaged to be married and wearing an engagement ring of course. I was very well qualified and it should have been easy but I would get along very well at interviews and even get to second level when it would reach a point that the interviewer (mostly men due to the industry I was in) would see the engagement ring. A total change - even saw the moment at one or two interviews and then would come the questions about babies and that would be it. No amount of my saying that I had no intention of having children in the near future helped. Several friends has the same issue and one would remove her ring to go to interviews. I was very stubborn and refused to do that. These days interviewers are not allowed to ask such questions!
I did eventually have a family but am still not the cooing over babies sort and pretty useless when it comes to holding babies (long time since I had mine and not sure I was that good at it then). Yet I have a niece who has no children and no experience with younger siblings - she can pick up a baby , calm and sooth it with such ease. It's just how we are made
Such a shame that anyone who does not have children for whatever reason should be made to feel odd or weird.
Mind you even when you do have a baby you get the next set of questions - when are you having another one? Is that it then? Wouldn't he like a little brother or sister?
I try to avoid asking people (both men and women) if they have children - there are so many other things you can talk about
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I know there are a ladies that by choice, circumstances or not able to conceive don't have children like me. Have you ever been made to feel an oddity or even second class?
I know I should let these comments go but quite a few comments over the years stick in my mind
Oh yes, definitely made to feel like a second rate woman by the matriachs of society.
I've always worked in an office environment and usually the first question women ask is do you have children - it's such a personal question - and if you don't then immediately you are made to feel that there is no common ground.
I find a lot of women - and men - are totally defined by their children and grandchildren and live their life through them and have an unhealthy over-dependency.
I clearly recall my elder sister telling me that "I hadn't been born yet" because I didn't have children - yet she was the stay at home mother, living a very narrow life in a small village!
The attitude exasperates me.
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This takes me back to when I was young and trying to get a job - engaged to be married and wearing an engagement ring of course. I was very well qualified and it should have been easy but I would get along very well at interviews and even get to second level when it would reach a point that the interviewer (mostly men due to the industry I was in) would see the engagement ring. A total change - even saw the moment at one or two interviews and then would come the questions about babies and that would be it. No amount of my saying that I had no intention of having children in the near future helped. Several friends has the same issue and one would remove her ring to go to interviews. I was very stubborn and refused to do that. These days interviewers are not allowed to ask such questions!
I did eventually have a family but am still not the cooing over babies sort and pretty useless when it comes to holding babies (long time since I had mine and not sure I was that good at it then). Yet I have a niece who has no children and no experience with younger siblings - she can pick up a baby , calm and sooth it with such ease. It's just how we are made
Such a shame that anyone who does not have children for whatever reason should be made to feel odd or weird.
Mind you even when you do have a baby you get the next set of questions - when are you having another one? Is that it then? Wouldn't he like a little brother or sister?
I try to avoid asking people (both men and women) if they have children - there are so many other things you can talk about
On a BBC programme, only about 5 years ago, i heard a woman manager in her 50's saying that she never employed female staff under 45 precisely because they might want maternity leave! I hoped that someone would hear her and take legal action against her.
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My sister experienced many negative comments when she was unable to conceive for many years. Obviously she was very sensitive at a difficult time, but why are people so judgemental over something that is very personal? I have one friend who couldn't have children. She moved 100s of miles from her family to get away from insensitive and judgemental comments from them! Why judge people for their decisions or circumstances? Why do people question my daughters decision not to have more than one child?
I wanted children and was fortunate to have them, but I paid a huge price career wise. I don't regret that, but trying to combine a career with childcare was beyond me physically. I have friends who either couldn't or didn't want children, but enjoyed developing their careers and are definitely financially better off. They do not look younger than me though!
I do not witter away about my children and grandchildren to people who have no interest, anymore than I would tolerate someone wittering away about football etc., though my childless friends are interested in my children, because they are human beings doing interesting things!
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I never had children which was my choice - just met the wrong man at the wrong time in my life I suppose, plus we were too busy having holidays, going skiing touring the States etc.
One friend goes on & on about how wonderful her children have turned out, it verges on bragging & I sometimes feel she is trying to rub my face into it. I just switch off.
My older brother calls me "the barren Aunt" in front of his girls, >:( >:(
Cazi x
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My mother used to display an odd attitude towards childless neighbours when we were kids, saying things like "they don't know they're born" - fortunately none of it rubbed off on me, even as a 10 year old I thought it was a ridiculous way to think. That was back in the 60s though - you would have hoped people were a bit more enlightened these days.
My Great uncle and aunt had a grandson who was adopted as well as a natural grandson. My Grandma occasionally made comments to us about him not really being a true member of the family or something similar. i forget her exact wording but remember being shocked by it.
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Dictionary definition of adopt - "legally take (another's child) and bring it up as one's own".
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It is no one's business but yours :(
Our daughter and her husband are childless, not by choice but because there is a genetic disease in the family that they feel it would be irresponsible to pass on to the next generation so have made the informed choice not to have children. No one but close family know this and DD still gets the 'not pregnant yet?' comments, as if it is anyone's business.
None of us know what is happening in peoples families and I think most of us here would be too polite to comment to others. what a shame others can't show the same courtesy.
I feel quite cross on behalf of the ladies who have posted here :(
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I don't have children and if I'm honest I don't like children very much, especially young ones as I don't find them very interesting, but if I had got pregnant I'm sure OH would have been a wonderful dad ;D
Some friends and colleagues had children but they were horribly competitve about every life stage so I was actually quite pleased that I wasn't part of that. I showed a polite interest but didn't get too involved, and often changed the subject to things which were more general, and if someone brought their baby in I would escape before I had to hold it.
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if someone brought their baby in I would escape before I had to hold it.
never understood the 'let's pass the baby round' routine at work. Although one time I thought it was a baby and it ended up being a puppy and that was very exciting, lol.
Babies are fantastic if you're related to them, if not then they're incredibly boring.
My sister always told me I should tell anyone who asked why I didn't have children that I was barren to shut them up, but I never did have the nerve. Really felt for a friend who was desperate for a child but it never happened for them, people have no idea how insensitive they were to her.
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All. The. Time.
Not by my friends. They are very supportive, include me in their childrens' lives, and a couple even say how much help I have been, especially sometimes talking with the older kids about things they would not feel comfortable talking about with their parents.
But other people... I have lost track of the number of times I've been told I'm 'not complete' or 'unfulfilled'. I used to work on a care farm, and one woman even told me that I would be less able to help a farrowing pig than she would be (in spite of the fact that she knew nothing about pigs), because I hadn't had children (couldn't help thinking that if raising your children gives you great experience looking after piglets, your children can't be much to write home about!) I've even been told I shouldn't feel bad that I'm a 'failure' for not having children.
I used to meet up with three of my friends who had babies and toddlers and none of them ever had an issue with my childlessness. Then another young mum joined the group, and every time I went near one of my friends' children it was 'you'd better let me do that - you don't have children' or 'you're not a mother; leave it to those of us who are'. I got so tired of being belittled that eventually, I told my friend I didn't want to visit her anytime this other woman would be present.
I don't mind people asking if I have children. I'm not even too bothered if they ask if I mind that I don't, as long as it's out of concern, not nosiness. But I hate the 'you are inferior because you're not a mother' attitude, and I won't mix with people who have it anymore.
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I sometimes wonder if these women who are so insensitive are actually basing their own value/worth on their motherhood rather than who they are as individuals, and that is why they have this attitude to women who don't have children. If so, it's a sad reflection on how they see themselves.
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This thread just highlights that there are a great many insensitive down right stupid people out there. I have a great many friends who didn't have children, most of those chose not to but some just left it too late to conceive because they had concentrated on their careers. I have never come across the attitudes that you ladies describe and I'm appalled. However, bigotry abounds in this world across every subject matter; religion, politics, Brexit and the European union, refugees, asylum seekers, private education, homosexuality, oh I could go on. Another one to add to the list, women who don't have children. I wonder what the attitude is to men who don't have children, do they come across the same sorts of idiocy? Jeez!
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Sadly, I think women are still treated unfairly compared to men in many areas. For example:
If a woman is unmarried - "I wonder why she never managed to find anyone"
If a man is unmarried - "I wonder why he chose not to marry"
If a woman does something childish - "You'd think she'd know better at HER age."
If a man does something childish - "Little boys never grow up"
etc, etc, etc
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I sometimes wonder if these women who are so insensitive are actually basing their own value/worth on their motherhood rather than who they are as individuals, and that is why they have this attitude to women who don't have children. If so, it's a sad reflection on how they see themselves.
This has been my theory too, but I don't really blame them. This is how most of us little girls were raised. I started work when I was 16, and I hated the job I had, and I distinctly remember thinking "oh well, I won't have to worry about it for long because I'll get married in a few years". That was just the way we were brought up to think. You left school, you got a job for a while and then you got married and had babies. Forty years later and I'm still not married..lol... I hope this has changed though and that little girls are brought up thinking that if you find someone suitable marriage is great, but it's not the be all and end all. They need to be raised to be totally self sufficient, and if a man enters their life it's nice, but not a necessity.
I've been friends with this woman for a couple of years. She was divorced about 5 years ago and while she is very outgoing and fun to be with, she will not go anywhere outside of her immediate area on her own. She won't even go to a different shopping centre that's only about a 10 minute drive away. It's not that she suffers from anxiety or anything like that. She just doesn't like doing things on her own. I'm a member of a number of social type groups and I often go on my own to different morning teas, lunches etc all over the city, but of course I meet friends when I get there, but she would never do that. I blame the fact that she's spent her entire life being someone's mother and wife, and now doesn't know how to be her own person and have some independence. She would go with me if I invited her, but in all honestly I've gotten past holding someone's hand. All my life I've had to put my big girl pants on and summon up the bravery to do things on my own. No one ever held my hand.
I also have other married friends who refuse to stay in the house on their own if their husbands are away or in hospital. To me this is just crazy. Women need to learn independence, even if you are in your 50s and beyond because you can't rely on men to always be around for you.
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I'd like to think things are changing, but the woman I mentioned who is constantly belittling me for being childless is in her mid 30s. And the 'failure' comments came from people around my own age (41). If they are raising their own daughters with this view, it looks like we have at least one more generation before people stop thinking this way.
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I don't have children and if I'm honest I don't like children very much. I agree with your quote Getting Old.
I feel the same. I am childless by choice. I've never had any maternal feelings. Now I find myself in a difficult situation as I have step children and they are having their own children.
My stepchildren were all older when my husband & I got together and they never lived with us. But now, we have weekly visits from them, along with the grandkids. I didn't want babies/children and now I feel that it's being forced on me. I dread it when they visit and am pleased when they leave. If I ever told anyone I know, I'd feel like such an awful person.
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May I giggle?
I made up my mind at the age of 8 [long story short]. My paternal grandma told me initially that I was selfish until I explained my reasons, by the time we had finished the conversation, i didn't know if she was on my side or not ::).
One lady told me that my children would be there to take care of me in my old age. She had 1 daughter ::) ….. I explained that we might well have had children who might have chosen to emigrate, what then? She shut up ;D.
I was told 'you'll change your mind when you get older' which was like a red rag to a bull …… NOPE! never did, no regrets. Himself would have made a good Dad but may well have joined those headed for Peru ;)
I thought that owning pets would be easier but the responsibility almost killed me :'( so I know that I took the correct decision …….
If people 'kept on' about why I didn't have babies I would mutter 'it's the genetic side of things' - they would then shut up ;D
I was the one who could stop babies crying ;-). Run a finger along the top lip under the nose, it lulls them ……..
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As for 'knowing a mother' - well, explain that I was away from my Mum for 3/4 days following birth but we still bonded, also how is it that adopted babies settle?
I don't like children much: smelly, dirty, noisy …….. I know quite a few adults like that, thinking about it ;)
It is never a reflection on our choice not to be childless but those who make the comment. Also, I think that some who have made the choice to be parents, envy the freedom that my chosen Life-style allows!
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I have to say that children are not smelly and dirty per se, only if they are not properly cared for. However they are certainly noisy, it was bedlam this afternoon at our son's house with the 2 youngest grandkids ::)
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Are your ears buzzing babyjane? The first time I changed a nappy the baby knew I was un-skilled in that dept. and kicked it off, giggly loudly - he was 7 weeks old ;D
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they are a bit CLKD, yes ::)
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I used to visit friends with children to remind myself why I didn't have any ……… I never had problems with handling them however small and boy, were some small :-* ……. 4lb 1 oz ……… the nappy issue was, urrggh, another issue so if push came to shove, I would wrap 2 terry towling nappies around, 1 on the bottom, the other on my lap ……. I loved handing them back too!
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My GS creates bedlam on his own, so two boys together....... ::) We call it monster hour. However, you do learn to tune it out to some extent for survival! Other children's bedlam is far worse than your own children. I admit to relief to handing grandchildren back! I haven't the energy.
To have or not have children is a either a personal choice or devastating if the choice is not there. It has nothing to do with anyone else, other than a partner. It is disrespectful and rude to voice such judgemental comments, but it is a reflection on the person who says these comments, not the recipient. If you can't rebuff them, then walk away. Don't worry about their feelings. Sadly, when i am disrespected, I think of an appropriate rebuff too late!
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That's always my problem too Ju Ju. I'm very good with written communication. In fact I tend to be too "verbal" when I'm writing, but with verbal or face to face communication I'm not as good, especially in a confrontational situation, but I can always think of really good retorts 5 minutes later. 😯
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Years ago when Himself was awarded his Doctorate I mentioned to his parents that he 'has been Doctored' and the retort from his father, quite un-expectedly, was "I hope you never say that for real!". Too late I'd been 'done' ;)
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:rofl:
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Good coincidence, CLKD! Just after my Dad had got his own Doctorate, one of my Mum's pupils asked if he had been "doctored", too! ;D
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::) ........ I never discussed with his parents that we weren't having children, it was decided upon B4 we were engaged. His brother/wife didn't have any either, probably a huge disappointment for his Dad who had survived Jap Prisoner of War Camp and probably thought that after all that, he ought to have had grandkids.
Responsibility makes me ill ....... so it's good that I made my decision as early as 8 years old.
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Never really made a conscious decision not to have children but once using contraception, involved with a demanding job, looking after Mother and then Aunt with dementia, time passed.
Don't really regret it as I envisage we probably would have struggled in more ways than one.
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I have been pretty lucky lately not to have so many people asking me when I am planning on having kids as I can't have them due to the early menopause although there may be like tiny tiny chance it may happen out of blue in the future but I doubt it as the odds are not that great.
I still haven't decided on what my responses will be if I do get asked cos it is something that I dont want the whole world to know but at the same time I dont want to be badgered.
My sister decided a long time ago that she didnt want kids at all, due to her being terrified at the thought of the pregnancy and the fact she may pass on depression/anxiety as it runs in the family through my mum's side. Everyone kept asking her when she will have kids, she got so annoyed at it. Lucky her husband already have a child by his ex-gf so he was completely fine with my sister not wanting kids.
I think people need to be more respectful about what a person choose to do ie not wanting kids, or not wanting marriage or not wanting to do the whole "normal" things. Life is about embracing the difference in people/things.
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One of my reasons for remaining childless is a history of obsessions and mental health issues.
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Hi Sparkly it would be easy if you could just say it's something that is not up for discussion. But I feel you would be like me not wanting to upset anyone. I agree we need to be respectful of personal choices.
A couple of months ago my friend and I were in a taxi and the woman driver asked about our children ( my friend has two) when she found out I hadn't got any there was a few quite probing questions. My friend was mortified and afterwards said I have known you nearly 60 years and would never ask you.
Flutterbyx
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I would tell people that I didn't want to continue with the genetic defects ;)
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Hi Flutterby, Yeah I could say that it isnt up for discussion. Yes I dont like to upset people, that is one of my problems. One person asked me few months ago when I was going to have kids, I just said oh we not in the right situation as too much going on but afterwards I felt bad cos it isn't true. It is very hard to get it right as you end up lying or they end up quizzing you.
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I stopped wanting kids when I was 14 years old and realized what a pregnancy and a mother's life meant. I was terrified. Maybe that is just an Asperger's trait but I suspect that seeing my mother taking care of 4 children, working as a nurse and having to clean, wash, iron, cook for a non cooperative husband has contributed.
I had to put up with all sorts of questions, comments and remarks on this subject but now people have finally realized that I'm too old for that. And some have even touched the subject again just to tell me that I was right.
Once I worked in a lab where one of the PhD students worked with in vitro fertilization and she would comment on the high costs of the treatment and I coud never understand why a couple would spent that amount to have a child instead of adopting. I suppose hormones have a role in these matters.
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Someone asked me again this week if I had kids and when I said no, they said "Lucky you, wish I'd been that sensible".
I'm sure they were meaning to be kind/helpful by implying I wasn't missing out. But I think it is one of the WORST things you can say to someone who doesn't have children. EVERY time someone says something like this to me, I feel like shaking them till their teeth rattle >:( :o I know having children isn't some perfect dream-world where everything goes right, but implying you'd rather not have had your children or that childless people are the fortunate ones (especially to someone who never had the choice) is incredibly ungrateful, rude and insensitive.
Rant over...
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My DD has been very fortunate to have our GS, who she loves absolutely and is enjoying being a Mum, but she has no wish to have any more children. She says that it's like a switch has gone off. So why is her decision not to have anymore children questioned? Either to her or to me. The temptation is to fend off people by listing the practical reasons ( finance, difficult pregnancy, traumatic labour) which are all valid, but as my daughter has said, she would find a way through all that if she wanted more children. Why does her choice need to be qualified? A suggestion was made that it wasn't fair to our GS not to have siblings and questioning whether she likes being a parent! Why is it anybody else's business? Why do others feel the need to be judgemental? I'm glad my DD doesn't take any nonsense.
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I wonder which age group is posing the question/s?
It was the same when I told people I didn't smoke - discussion made, acceptance taken. If anyone pushed about the 'why don't you ' my explanation was that I didn't want to pay the Government any more tax than necessary ;): with the child question it was 'genetics make it unwise' ..........
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I made my decision at age 8.
I never regretted it.
In my 30s I realised that I would not have made a good parent due to severe anxiety ......
I love hearing kids laughing with parents/siblings or playing in the school yard, I love seeing a line of Terry toweling nappies blowing in the breeze ;D
I admire anyone who dares to have a child, so much can go wrong from day 0 ::)
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No one should have to justify their decision to have or not to have children.
But what is so painful is that some people decide to have children, then can't.
I saw what this did to my sister. She and her husband tried for years and underwent fertility treatment. For her there was a sort of happy ending. 3 months after giving up on having children, she became pregnant. The 'sort of' is that she died when they were young.
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I know having children isn't some perfect dream-world where everything goes right, but implying you'd rather not have had your children or that childless people are the fortunate ones (especially to someone who never had the choice) is incredibly ungrateful, rude and insensitive.
Dorothy - Perhaps just perhaps some people are truly grateful to be childless and do indeed consider themselves fortunate.
I find it rude and insensitive to be told I am wrong in considering myself fortunate in not having any children.
Hasty, I think you may have misunderstood my post. If you read the earlier part of it, you will see that my comment related to people who asked ME if I had children (I don't) and who then went on to tell ME I should be grateful that I don't. I'm not telling OTHER people they are wrong in considering themselves fortunate to be childless (I have several friends who are childless by choice and very happy about it - and anyway, it's no one's business but their own!). I'm saying that people who DO have children are telling ME I should consider myself fortunate to be childless.
You are quite right that whether a person is happy to be childless or not happy, it is no one else's business to tell them what they should think or feel about it. But I think it is extra hurtful when someone who may want children is told by someone who has children that they should regard their inability to conceive as a good thing. Also, for a parent to say they were unlucky to have children is really unkind to their own kids!
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There are two different situations to consider: whether you choose or can't choose. In the end this is the sort of personal subject that shouldn't be brought up in casual conversation.
Ju Ju, how sad... :'(
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I knew someone who would daily tell her younger child that she 'tried everything to get rid of him' ....... how he grew up sane I cannot understand ::)
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That's a shame, some people should just stop existing >:(
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No worries Hasty - hope today is going better for you :)