Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: elliebean on October 21, 2016, 09:52:39 AM
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I've previously posted about this elsewhere, so won't go into too much detail now, but after seeing a specialist (I believe we shouldn't be naming names now) I started on 3 pumps of Oestrogel (I was previously taking Premarin) and 1 blob of Testim daily about 5 months ago. After about 6 weeks I had loads more energy and I had a libido again and just felty more myself. Great... however, one of the other problems I'd had originally when I went to see the specialist got worse and worse... hair loss! My hair had already been thinning a bit, but after starting the Oestrogel and Testim regime it went from bad to worse and my scalp started itching a lot, but I don't know if there's a connection.
Ever since my hair has been coming out more and more to the point that a few people have remarked on my hair looking thin. I contacted the specialist a couple of weeks ago and he's told me to stop using the testosterone gel and he will review things in 3 months. The irony is that I've lost so much hair off my head but gained lots on my thighs.
I've had my thyroid checked and it's on the lower end of normal, but definitely within range.
Has anybody else experienced this when using testosterone? I did a bit of research online and it seems that hair loss can be a symptom of too much testosterone, but also a symptom of too much or too little oestrogen!
I'm feeling thoroughly fed up at the moment and am almost reluctant to go out, if I don't have to, as I feel so self-conscious about my hair! My daughter has suggested a wig, but I'm not sure I'm ready for that yet.
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Ellie bean I feel your distress as I'm a fellow hairloss/thinning victim
Mine all started @march 2015 but noticeably July 2015, I'm sure I was told I was post meno end of 2014/beg 2015, as I had a hysterectomy many years before I can only go by their blood tests so my hair loss seemed to tie in with being post meno. My mum had the usual old lady thinning showing pink scalp but I can't just assume it's hereditary as she never tried hrt so for her it could've been total lack of hormones. I also get the itchy scalp and that usually results in me noticing more loss
I've researched til I'm exhausted and have read that low/high testosterone can cause hair loss as can low oestrogen (can't remember about high oestrogen) and the usual s... vitamins, iron, thyroid etc , which I think I'm all ok on
I'm on day 9 of testosterone and using less than a pea size as I'm worried about the hair loss
Also, it's known that hair will probably grow on the area you apply the T gel
Re: wigs. I'm not at that stage (yet) but as crazy as it sounds I keep visiting websites that sell them as my way of thinking is if I just go for it it takes one major stress out of my life
I use Nanogen hair fibres to 'colour in' the gaps, which helps
I'd like to keep in touch with you if you're ok with it on this thread as I think it could help lots of women with our problem
Take care x
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Hi, Elliebean! I was wondering how you were doing. Did the Specialist switch you straight over to the Estrogel/Testosterone combo from the Premarin?
If so, that could be the problem right there. It would have been better to build up your estrogen level on the gel for at least 3 months and then introduce the Testosterone. I've had this discussion with my specialist, and Premarin does not behave the same way in the body as estradiol (as you know, it's a conjugated equine estrogen and doesn't 'fit' with our estrogen receptors exactly). I think your body needed a period of adjustment and to allow your estrogen levels to settle before the T was added.
Sending you hugs!!! xxxx
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Hi Elliebean - I think we may be seeing the same specialist and quite frankly he's not in my good books just now. Anyway, I've always had loads of hair (my partner calls it Falcon Crest hair as it always looks like those women with the big 80's do's) but not so much now. I started noticing the hairdryer being very hot at certain parts of my head so had a closer look. Defo thinning. Quite a bit as in male pattern baldness. I've now stopped the testo even though consultant said to up it! I'm also struggling with correct dose of E transdermally so that's prob affecting it too. I've no doubt it's the too much testo in relation to E. Don't know if the hair will grow back after stopping T - hope so.
Good luck
Dx
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Wee soul, Dawn!!
I have to admit, this was why I DIDN'T fill the prescription that this Specialist wrote for me some months back. Although I desperately wanted to try the Testosterone, I was uneasy as I think it needs close supervision and I now know from my new specialist that you need a good estrogen level in place first. I'm so sorry you're having problems too!
Hugs. xxxx
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This can't be my problem as I've had good E levels and I'm not using the correct T dose, I'm on day 9 so technically should've used my tube up tomorrow but I reckon I'll get another 5 days out of it
I just wish I knew the answer
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Thank you all for your replies and messages of support. It's good to know you're not on your own.
Annie0710 - I'm happy to keep in touch via this thread, especially if it can help somebody else.
I've tried the Nanogen volume spray, I think it's called, but not any of the fibre ones as I wouldn't know what colour to opt for. Since I started losing so much hair I've stopped colouring it as I didn't want to encourage any more to come out, so my hair is a mixture of browns and grey.
I was aware that hair would grow at the sight of application and wasn't too worried about it. It just seemed a cruel irony that as it dropped out of my scalp it was growing like mad on my body.
I was told to use a pea-sized amount, but to make a tube last 8 days means that you're using one helluva big pea, bigger than any pea I've ever seen! ;) When I had my blood test at the end of July (after almost 3 months on Testim and Oestrogel) my oestrogen level was 292 (was 176 when on Premarin) and my testosterone level was in red and 4.4! I could see that the optimal levels for testosterone are 0-1.8. Previously my levels had been so low as not to be measurable.
Tempest - Yes, I was told to go straight from the Premarin to the Oestrogel/Testim combo and I did ask that specific question. The trouble is that because I was seeing a specialist I assumed that I was getting the best advice. A bit naive I guess, with hindsight. I do hope you manage to get your hormones sorted out. I remember from previously that you've been through a lot already.
Dawncam - I did laugh out loud when I read your comment about Falcon crest hair! :) I'm so sorry to hear that you're going through this too. I sincerely hope our hair does recover now we've stopped the testosterone!
I've now been off the testosterone for 3 weeks and I have noticed that my skin and hair are not as greasy as they had been getting, so I guess my levels are slowly coming down. I don't know if it's coincidence, but I have been having a lot of very vivid, unnerving dreams since I stopped it too.
Thanks again and hugs to everyone x
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My 774pmol/L equates to 210pg/L
Is that normal ? I always assumed it was
It's got me thinking now x
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http://www.glowm.com/section_view/heading/The%20Menopause/item/79
Ladies - this may be of invaluable help. Please let me know your thoughts. xxxx
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Hi Elliebean - I've been having vivid dreams too. This specialist prescribed almost exactly the same protocol for everyone. I too was told that my T levels were on the floor but have since read that it's very difficult to get an accurate reading for T in blood tests. I got a lot of dark hair at the top of my thighs (I started almost exactly a year ago) in the first 3 months and it's not increasing any further so I wonder if it levels out eventually. I'm not taking T again until I see an improvement in my hair and even then I'd like it more closely monitored. I'll be interested to see any decrease in mood/energy after stopping.
Dx
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Interesting reading Tempest. Makes a lot of sense. I'm sure, as other hormones fluctuate on this 'journey' so dies T and should therefore be monitored. I've asked for blood tests at GP but they refused as I'm don't have any symptoms of anything. Fiscal policy me thinks. My specialist has sent a letter to GP asking for blood tests so hopefully that'll shed some light on things. I think we all know when it's not right and don't really need a test to confirm it. I've certainly felt a lot of changes over the past year and am holding on tight trying to get on with my life but it's really not easy sometimes! Dx
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It's all going over my head 😢 Why don't my brain take in long text ?
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Hi I am on tostran just under a month and I feel good as I am feeling less sleepy. I also lost a lot of hair at the beginning of the year but had falcon crest hair lol...i have noticed my hair is starting to sit better and after a couple of days is a wee bit greasy at the roots but I am happy about this as my hair was so so dry and just like straw really. Also my skin on my face is feeling better as this was horrible now it's nice and smooth xx
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Forgot to say I am on 3 pumps of estrogel and was on this about 7 months previous to getting T xx
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That's great news, Keepgoing! Sounds like you have a nice level of balance going on there. :)
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I think you're right about a certain Specialist prescribing the same for everyone! 3 pumps of estrogel, 1/8th sachet Testim and vitamin D? Yup!!!!
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I'm so happy for you Keepgoing !
I've looked up 210ng/L oestrogen and it's classed as high
I'll carry on with my tiny blob of T and watch closely. Have I ever said I HATE hormones ? Well I do .....
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Me to Annie...I have the hairdressers in under 2 weeks so see if she thinks it's getting any more sparse as I can't tell now cause I'm paranoid about it all now and my hairdresser has said for months it's no worse but haven't been since starting T so fingers crossed she sees no difference cause I do feel good except when I go to keep fit I'm still drained after this so still a way to go before my energy levels are back...I certainly don't want to give the T up xx
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My doc said the only things that are irreversible on T are lowered voice and enlarged clitoris so hair should grow back when you stop the T therapy xx
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This is a weird thing I forgot to mention.....
I'm not sure if the scalp itchiness has increased since I started T last week but I have noticed when I run my fingers through my hair I seem to have less hairs falling. Probably coincidence as it's only day 9
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Annie, you never know!! I did read a DM article (I'll see if I can find it to link) and a lady who was interviewed did say her hair grew like crazy on the Testosterone! So if your estrogen levels are good (which they are) then this may be the ticket! It's that old balance chestnut again. Hormones!!!!!! They drive you nuts (in my case, almost literally - which accounts for a lot. Ahem)! ;)
When I was banging on earlier, I was just nervous because this stuff needs pretty close monitoring and I just feel that a certain Specialist is not as attentive as he could be with this kind of thing. I'm off my soap box now, and I know you're a sensible sort who'll let your GP know if anything crops up that shouldn't. God knows you've fought hard enough to even get the blinkin' stuff! :D
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2574273/Could-male-hormone-testosterone-transform-womans-looks-life-libido.html
Here we go........ ;)
She looks like a different woman! Also not sure who Dr. Maupin is but he has some interesting points about the many benefits. Especially on neurotransmitters in the brain and yes.......ANXIETY. This is what's getting me excited....
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Aw Tempest bless you, you really are one of the most caring, sweetest women I've met on the internet, I can imagine what a diamond you must be to your friends, and I'd like to take this opportunity in saying that as days go by I really notice your personality changing. You add lots of humour to your posts so I'm sure things are starting to go in your favour 😘
I read a survey on the internet about T therapy and hair loss (website had something like nmih. in it saying their conclusion is T is good for hair loss, but as we all know we're all different but yes for sure this is a trial for me to put my mind at rest to see if this is ny missing link and I promised the doc unprompted that I'd stop if I didn't feel right on it, and I would. I think that's why these size blobs scare me and I am using maybe half a pea or 3/4 at the most, definitely not up to a garden pea !
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Dear Annie!! You words mean so much, thank you. You've been a great comfort to me over the last few weeks, you really are a lovely caring lady! I wish the very, very best for you and I have everything crossed that the T is going to do magical things for you! :)
I guess I'm a bit more chipper because I now have someone taking care of things in a professional capacity, instead of flailing around by myself and traipsing back and forth to my GP. I've also got a better understanding of my symptoms! My GP used to treat me as if I was crazy......which is not unusual according to Professor Lumsden so I know she 'get's it' totally!
I truly believe that half of the poor ladies who arrive on MM wouldn't be in such a great state of anxiety and agreeing to take the antidepressants that their blinkin' GP's sling shot at them if they were just listened to and BELIEVED. Many have been back and forth to their surgeries' countless times (just like myself) and told a load of nonsense and made to believe it's all in their heads!
This isn't good enough, and why we do need to talk early to out daughters/nieces/all other women about menopause and its symptoms as this whole 'keeping it in the dark' stuff means that countless more women will suffer the same fate. I personally think they should put up posters mandatorially in GP's surgeries listing the 34 (we know there are many more) common menopause symptoms and then women would KNOW that they're not losing their minds. It would also help if GP's actually knew that the symptoms are many and diverse!
As Professor Lumsden said to me, change with GP's IS happening but it's not widespread, consistent or happening fast enough.
(Ooer.....I seem to have got that soapbox out again. Sorry)!! ;) ;D
Ooh, and patches. Yes - maybe!! I've heard good reports about the Estradot and I know Hurdity says she likes them too. Also Cubagirl, and she's a surgical menopause lady. So I live in hope..... ;)
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You could be a great spokesperson, you have warmth and likeability and knowledge and above all, massive personal experience
Yes it was Hurdity that prompted me to try Estradot as I was being given all sorts of patches in the early days last year of switching from oral. Estradot is good, I know not for everyone and is so good at sticking I need to use good make up remover to get the marks off
You will get there Tempest, I just know it, especially now you're in good hands xx
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2574273/Could-male-hormone-testosterone-transform-womans-looks-life-libido.html
Here we go........ ;)
She looks like a different woman! Also not sure who Dr. Maupin is but he has some interesting points about the many benefits. Especially on neurotransmitters in the brain and yes.......ANXIETY. This is what's getting me excited....
In my searching for info I came across this so many times and reread it each time
It is encouraging to read these stories plus there was a lady doing a blog with so many positive replies of others experiences x
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I have only been on oestrogen for years and hair shedding started when I reached post meno, so testosterone or any progesterone taking wasn't part of it, but I value everyone's posts and will watch my hair very very closely x
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I have been taking Elleste duet 1mg and my hot sweats have dissappeared feel so much better not depressed or anxious anymore.I thought I was doing great put a bit of weight on and sleep so much better.This is my fourth month when all of a sudden my hair starting shedding like crazy and have a very itchy scalp also my ears go red I have noticed this is when I finish taking the green tablets that this starts to happen.I read on this forum to try femoston 1/10 which my doctor was reluctant to give.I have started these today as anyone else had experience of this ? I am thinking of coming off Hrt altogether if my hair continues to shed it is so distressing but can't bear the thoughts of feeling like I did before it.I wear my hair short and it is very noticeable. Feeling desperate. >:(
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I have been taking Elleste duet 1mg and my hot sweats have dissappeared feel so much better not depressed or anxious anymore.I thought I was doing great put a bit of weight on and sleep so much better.This is my fourth month when all of a sudden my hair starting shedding like crazy and have a very itchy scalp also my ears go red I have noticed this is when I finish taking the green tablets that this starts to happen.I read on this forum to try femoston 1/10 which my doctor was reluctant to give.I have started these today as anyone else had experience of this ? I am thinking of coming off Hrt altogether if my hair continues to shed it is so distressing but can't bear the thoughts of feeling like I did before it.I wear my hair short and it is very noticeable. Feeling desperate. >:(
I'm not familiar with your hrt as I only used elleste solo (no progesterone) but check if your prog part is causing the shedding. If so you may be better off with elleste oestrogen patch and utrogestan tabs for your progesterone
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Hello ladies,
I've been reading this thread with interest because hair loss is one of the perimenopause symptoms that really distresses me (atlhough this may sound shallow compared to many other serious health issues).
I'm not on testosterone yet (I'm quite sure my GP will prescribe it after my 3 month trial HRT), but I've noticed a substantial hair improvement since I began taking DHEA and I thought to share this here. I'm not shedding hair as before, it is not thinner as it used to be and more silky (oily even, but only if weather is too hot). I can see it growing on the front of the scalp as I used to when I was younger. Pubic and armpit hair has increased a lot too.
I'm not advising DHEA since it has risks and side effects, but I'm quite content with the outcomes, I used to be at the center of attention when it comes to hair and after perimeno it really put me down.
That's good Menomale !
Seems DHEA is a win win for you, it's lovely when I hear of ladies getting a good regime x
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Update re my hair loss
It'll be 4 weeks on wednesday since I stopped using the Testim and, although I'm reluctant to tempt fate, I think my hair loss may be slowing down a little. I don't seem to be picking so many hairs off my clothes and off my pillow each morning.
I'm still having weird, vivid dreams and for the past few days I've woken up with a bad headache which has taken all day to dissipate. I wonder if I could be having excess oestrogen now that I'm not using the testosterone, which I believe balances things out a bit.
I've been interested to read about DHEA, but am I wrong in thinking that when you take DHEA it is instead of oestrogen and testosterone because it is a precursor to those two?
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elliebean - when women (or men?) take DHEA it is not instead of the other two. Yes it's a precursor but the controlling factors (enzyme controls, feedback pathways) I don't think are fully known (someone correct me here if I'm wrong!). As I've said before - if it was just a question of taking precursors we could just all eat more cholesterol which is the precursor for most (all?) steroid hormones. It is not possible to determine which of the two DHEA will be converted to, and the extent to which your own basal levels influence this, if indeed it will convert to either (both) in all women - which is why more research trials are needed - into dosage, resultant hormone levels and long term safety.
Hurdity x
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Thanks, Hurdity. That makes complete sense!
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I thought I'd give an update on where I am...
It'll be 5 weeks tomorrow since I stopped using the Testim and for the past week I've felt absolutely lousy. My hair may have stopped coming out quite as much, I'm not sure. Either way, it's negligible, but more than that I'm feeling lethargic, no energy or motivation, sleepy off and on throughout the day and my mood is low again. When I go to bed at night I fall straight to sleep, but am awake again most nights by about 4am, or 5am if I'm very lucky, with horrible anxiety. I've tried my relaxation exercises and mindfulness, but to no avail. Once I'm awake that seems to be it. And finally, I have lost my rediscovered libido.
I'm sorry for moaning, but I'm feeling so fed up at the moment that I'm starting to think sod the hair loss, I'll just buy a wig and start back on the testosterone. At least I had energy, felt good about life and had a libido. I'm supposed to review things with the consultant after 3 months, but I'm not sure I can wait that long, plus I really don't want to spoil Christmas for myself and everyone else!
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Thanks for the update and sorry to hear you're feeling rough after stopping the T - I absolutely dread the day when I have to stop (when I can't cope with periods and all the faff if I get to late 60's and still using it!).
Why not restart but use a much smaller amount? If you made the tune last 8 days ( just looked back at your posts) then that is much more than I'm using. I also use a pea-sized blob but my tube must last a fortnight I would say maybe longer - and I still notice the difference.
Did you also say what your TSH/T3/T4 readings were? Thyroid could also be functioning less than optimally and contributing to hair loss?
In your position I would start again but I know I would find hair loss difficult to deal with as well. Let us know what you decide to do - it's a right pain all of this isn't it?!
Hurdity x
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Aw Elliebean
We are in such similar situations
I've just wrote a piece on mine, I'm getting to the point where I think if push comes to shove, I can buy hair, but I can't buy the things T is giving me and like Hurdity a tube is lasting me over 14 days, but I'll carry on with this amount, it's giving me a boost and will show docs I'm not being silly on it. I really can't work my hair out,not the best time for me to even try as being abroad the water is different so might be softening my hair (I live in a hard water area at home), shedding is definitely improved but that might've been ready to stop anyway and my better outlook on life might be giving me a bit of oomph to accept/deal with the hairloss, I really don't know
Why don't you give it a go with a 1/4 of a pea blob ?
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I thought I'd give an update on where I am...
It'll be 5 weeks tomorrow since I stopped using the Testim and for the past week I've felt absolutely lousy. My hair may have stopped coming out quite as much, I'm not sure. Either way, it's negligible, but more than that I'm feeling lethargic, no energy or motivation, sleepy off and on throughout the day and my mood is low again. When I go to bed at night I fall straight to sleep, but am awake again most nights by about 4am, or 5am if I'm very lucky, with horrible anxiety. I've tried my relaxation exercises and mindfulness, but to no avail. Once I'm awake that seems to be it. And finally, I have lost my rediscovered libido.
I'm sorry for moaning, but I'm feeling so fed up at the moment that I'm starting to think sod the hair loss, I'll just buy a wig and start back on the testosterone. At least I had energy, felt good about life and had a libido. I'm supposed to review things with the consultant after 3 months, but I'm not sure I can wait that long, plus I really don't want to spoil Christmas for myself and everyone else!
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Please don't apologise for moaning, you've got plenty to feel disappointed about by the sound of it. I really feel for you as I was at the 'sod the hair loss' stage too. I have no useful suggestions as I don't know enough yet but I really do wish you all the best and hope to hear some better news from you at some point.
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Hurdity, Annie0710 and Peacegirl,
Thank you all for your kind and supportive comments. It's reassuring to know there are other women who understand.
Restarting with a much smaller amount of testim sounds like a feasible option. I think I'll sleep on it and have a chat with my OH about it tomorrow. Thankfully, he's supportive and understanding.
Hurdity - my TSH level was within range and my free thyroxine was just outside range at 11.4 with range of 12.0 - 22.0 pmol/L. My GP has since rechecked it and it was all ok apparently.
Thank you all again x
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TSH can be within the lab ranges but still causes symptoms. The treatable limit is 4.5 but many women experience symptoms when it is lower than this eg over 3. Countrybumpkin is the expert.
Hurdity x
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My last TSH level was 1.59, Hurdity.
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Ah - that's definitely OK - mine was almost 3!!!
Hurdity x
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After another couple of horrible days and nights I've bitten the bullet and started back on testosterone. However, this time I'm going to use a petit pois sized blob of Testim rather than a big fat juicy marrowfat pea sized blob.
I also made an appointment and went to a local wig fitters today. The woman I saw was lovely and made me feel very much at ease. She's going to order in a couple of hair pieces in my hair colour for me to try. I was pleasantly surprised by how much difference a small light hairpiece on top of my head made. This feels like a compromise as the woman didn't think my hair was thin enough to have to go for a full blown wig just yet.
She also suggested trying hair fibres. I think you use these don't you, Annie0710? So, I am going to buy some from Boots to try.
All in all, even though I'm still not feeling great in myself, today felt like a more positive day.
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Ellie where in U.K are you as I may need advice over hair toppers
Re: fibres...... order from nanogen website, they're the best I've tried and quick delivery. They only wash out with shampoo so if you don't wash hair one day but wet it they stay in
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Thanks Annie0710. I've PM'ed you x