Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Personal Experiences => Topic started by: Janice68 on August 26, 2016, 07:09:05 AM
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I know this topic has been discussed so many times on the forum. I have almost exhausted every avenue with this even trying over counter remedy's which for me is useless.
I was on a low dose sleeping pill which did help me to a point of getting a few hours sleep which is better than nothing. But not allowed to take it anymore addiction and all of that but at least it was giving me some relief!! Even though I know it's not the way forward too.
Hrt is not an option for me either and when I was trialing it never helped anyway. I don't do well on meds anyway side effects etc.
Anyway saw doc on Monday she has given me 15mg Mirtazapine to take before bed time I am also on 20mg of cipramil for my anxiety too. Just wondering is anyone taking 2 ADs one for anxiety the other one for sleep?
I've been on the Mirtazapine for 4days now so far it hasn't done anything for my sleep I have to say I'm so tired to the point my body aches at the moment! If anyone is using this med and if it helps you sleep how long if it does help with sleep how long can it take till it works? Any ones experiences pls wld be appreciated with Mirtazapine I have used this before with no luck but trying again alongside my other Ad cipramil as i said before now I can't use the sleeping pill.
Any ideas wld be appreciated
Jan x
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Sorry that you are having such trouble sleeping Jan - it can make you feel so ill as well as just plain exhausted.
It does seem odd that you are on both the Cipramil and Mirtazapine because these two drugs seem to work in conflicting ways. I found this article which you may find helpful in making a decision as to whether to continue due to the mention that insomnia is a side effect of withdrawing from Mirtazapine https://www.sleepio.com/articles/sleep-aids/mirtazapine-and-sleep/.
Obviously your GP has prescribed this for a reason but I always think it's a good idea to do a bit of hunting around ourselves to see how the medications actually work on the body. Do you get to sleep ok and then wake up in the early hours? Cipramil is known to cause insomnia along with all of the SSRI's so this may also be causing your lack of sleep?
Taz x :hug:
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I also found this which does state that another drug could be prescribed if insomnia due to SSRI's is a problem. It all gets very confusing but worth thinking about
"SSRIs
The SSRIs are characterized by selective inhibition of the presynaptic serotonin transporter, leading to enhanced activity of serotonin at postsynaptic receptors.3 A large number of serotonin receptor subtypes that regulate sleep and wakefulness as well as transitions between specific sleep stages, such as the termination of REM sleep, have been identified.
Because of the complexity of serotonin involvement in sleep-wake regulation, drugs that modulate serotonin activity can produce prominent and sometimes diverse effects on sleep. Some patients who took fluoxetine reported insomnia as an adverse effect, whereas other patients experienced daytime somnolence.11 This same pattern of diverse subjective reports on sleep and wakefulness has been reported in clinical trials with all of the drugs in this class.
While data have been reported most extensively for fluoxetine and paroxetine, class effects of SSRI therapy appear to include increased sleep onset latency and/or an increased number of awakenings and arousals, leading to an overall decrease in sleep efficiency.12,13 Virtually all of the SSRIs examined have been noted to suppress REM sleep.1 Clinically, reports of a change in the frequency, intensity, and content of dreaming can be associated with SSRIs, as well as the occurrence of these symptoms on discontinuation.
Be mindful that treatment of a patient with depression may produce significant improvement in symptoms of depression in general, yet may not address insomnia. In some cases, treatment with an SSRI may produce or exacerbate problems with sleep disturbance. Therefore, a medication that targets insomnia may also be prescribed for patients with depression who are being treated with an SSRI"
Taz x
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Hi Taz, ( We can get better......) Eh
Yep it's not my cipramil causing any problems that's for sure you know when you no Taz2.
Doc said the Mirtazapine works a different way on the brain but I have to say I'm not depressed. She put me on it to help me sleep because they have stopped my sleeping pill. As I've said not a lover of this Ad did nothing for me before. Then I swapped over to my cipramil which stopped my panic attacks and helped with anxiety where mirtazapine didn't makes you put weight on too.
She did say they work together but I couldn't increase I suppose.
This insomnia is caused by hormones I'm afraid but i will try this regime for one month.
Thanks for link
Thanks for hugs I need it so tired just seen another message you have sent your lovely thanks Taz2 x
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I expect it works by upping the whatever it is that the Cipramil lowers or is it the other way round ;D Here's to it beginning to work soon. You can feel so alone when you can't sleep - like you are the only person awake in the whole world!
Taz x
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We CAN get better!
Taz x :D
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I know it is very confusing!! It doesn't take much for me to get confused these days ;D saying that I'm so tired no wonder I Get so confused.
Thanks Taz2 for your help!!! I appreciate it too!!
Lack of sleep is horrible you just don't function properly it's a nightmare!! Now I no why people get hooked on sleeping pills you just want to switch off and sleep and for me it was the easy root out of it.
Well at least I'm going to try this regime anyway .Well for 1 month anyway.
Cheers Taz2
Janx
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Hi Jan
Just wondering why hrt isn't an option for you. Speaking for myself, insomnia is my major menopause symptom and without hrt I would be a suicidal basket case.
Nothing over the counter worked for me either, with the exception of doxylamine (a sedating antihistamine), but I wasn't about to start taking that constantly. An amitriptyline AD (Endep) also worked, but once again I wasn't about to start taking that constantly either. I was prescribed diazepam very early on in my menopause saga and I became dependent on it and had to do a very slow taper off it, and that was NOT fun, so I definitely agree that you don't want to go down the sleeping pill path at all.
If you are able to try hrt again, perhaps the dose you were on before was too low and that's why it didn't help.
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I've not gone yet!!!( You no what I mean Taz2)
;D
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I had dreadful awful unrelenting insomnia for years, before getting a low dose of an older type anti-depressant, amitriptyline (dosage 25mg - quite a bit too low to be effective for depression) Since then I have had in the main perfect sleep and no bad side effects.
Before getting this medication I had been taking OTC sleeping pills but as they lose their effect quickly I would do something like, first night take quarter of a dose, next night half a dose, next 3/4, then full dose, then go cold turkey again for a good few nights before starting it all again - it was a total farce.
Just to say - At the same time as being given the amitriptyline I was also given Oestrogel instead of the oestrogen tablets I'd been on. Can't say for sure which is responsible for my sleep improvement but think it might be the amitriptyline as others have noted sleep improvements with it.
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Hi Dana,
Hrt dosent agree with me I've tried quite a few regimes in the past. I've been off hrt for 4 months now. I've decided at the moment to stop and I've exhausted that area too also. I'm sorry to say it never helped me either. It either made it worse for me and I also suffered from horrible side effects too. The last one I tried upset my stomach so much I couldn't eat.
So at the moment I decided to give my body a rest from that side of things and to see where Im at.
My cipramil Ad helps with anxiety side of things. I take my supplements daily. I don't take anything for my poor over heated body hot flushes due to the fact for me personally I seem to aggravate the problem and make it worse not better.
The problem like so many people I am very sensitive to medications too.
That's why I have trouble taking hormones!
Im so glad hrt helps you and many others with sleep!! We are all so different I'm afraid!!
Im afraid can't use amitriptyline either!!
Cheers janx
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Thanks Clovie
Interesting about how we have used sleeping pills.
After my trial I might even consider the amitriptyline route but as you said the low dose one. It didn't agree with me years ago but you never no at a low dose now.
Thanks janx
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I agree with Clovie about the dose of the amitriptyline AD. If I'm having trouble sleeping 25mg does the trick. With the doxylamine antihistamine about 6mg is enough.
When I was going through the worst of my sleeping pill taper I would take one of them for about 5 nights and then switch to the other for 5 nights, and then back again. That way I never became tolerant or dependent on either of them.
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Cheers Dana, out of interest can the 25mg of amitriptyline be taken with cipramil 20mg.
Am waiting on a call from doc now having awful time with Mirtazapine no sleep and side effects too. At least I no why I did not want to go back on that one now!
Cheers for the tips we do become tolerant to things!!
Thanks janx
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I use mirtazapine 15 mgs,for me it stopped all anxiety,palps,etc and my insomnia was dramatically improved within a week ! However I'm not using any other ad so maybe the two are interacting in someway. Shows how different we all are. 15mg mirtazapine is the dose that should cause sedation when taken at bedtime,the higher you go the less efective it is for sleep.
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Cheers Dazned
These two ADs work in different ways I've been told.
I've been told to keep going over the weekend with it and see how I am doing if not happy speak to my doc on Tuesday.
I've been told if it comes to it I can try amitriptyline 25mg alongside my cipramil.
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Cheers Dana, out of interest can the 25mg of amitriptyline be taken with cipramil 20mg.
Am waiting on a call from doc now having awful time with Mirtazapine no sleep and side effects too. At least I no why I did not want to go back on that one now!
Cheers for the tips we do become tolerant to things!!
Thanks janx
I'm sorry. I don't know anything about cipramil.
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Cipramil is the other name for Citalopram
Taz x
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It' a shame my citalopram can't help with the insomnia part too.
I get on really well with this AD I have never suffered a side effect with this one either and no weight gain from it either Not like this Mirtazapine one!!
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There may be a psychological element too! For years I had problems sleeping until the night I thought "It hasn't killed me yet" - went back to sleep and since then, rarely any problems. Sounds simplistic but I was in a very busy responsible job running a small 'team', took my work 'home' with me which followed into bed! Would drop off OK but would wake in the early hours …….. I have also been able to sleep in the afternoons when necessary, in fact if my brain decides to shut off - usually during a TV programme I have waited ages to see ::) - then off to sleep it goes.
I have had a notepad by the bed in the past to jot down thoughts etc. because worrying about forgetting stuff kept me awake. I have also been asleep but woken to see if I was asleep >:( :D For years I had radio 2 on softly beside the bed ……… at least it felt like company whilst Himself slept soundly >:( ;D
In the last couple of weeks I've had sad/bad news so sleeping has been problematic ……. in the past I have used sea-sickness mediations or anti-histamines: 2-3 nights so that I get good sleep then a break, knowing that it helps when necessary means I don't need to rely on medication.
The so-called 'experts' tell us not to sleep in the day nor to stay in bed to 'catch up' but what do they know? We are from the Caves so would go to bed with the dusk and be up at dawn! now we have to comply with the alarm clock and everyone else's routines ……….
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"There may be a psychological element too! For years I had problems sleeping until the night I thought "It hasn't killed me yet" - went back to sleep and since then, rarely any problems."
Along slightly similar lines to yourself, CLKD, yesterday evening whenever a worry started to raise its ugly head - as it often does towards bed time - I told myself that "monsters often seem bigger at night" and made myself put that worry away. So I didn't have an anxious evening, nor did I go to sleep feeling anxious, I've just had a pretty good night and I feel rested enough to be writing coherently on here at 6.36am, having made a nice cuppa! I'll be trying that one again, that's for sure. :)
(15 mins. later) - Was just relaxing downstairs with said cuppa and MM when I heard creaking upstairs. Hmm. Seems I had woken Hubby up. He then came and said he was wondering where I was and I had to explain that I just wanted a bit of me-time. After about ten minutes, I felt guilty enough to go back upstairs with my cuppa. When I got there, I saw he was dozing off again, so I told him I'd come back upstairs to be with him, as he was missing me. But he just grunted sleepily and asked me if I minded if he went back to sleep......so here I am again, back downstairs, on MM, finishing my cuppa and this time listening to some nice music! Men - I ask you! ::)
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Thanks for replying clkd and Dulciana,,
I'm sorry to hear you have had sad/ bad news the last couple of weeks clkd!!
I have found your threads very interesting and insight too thank you
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:thankyou: …….. :wub:
I slept heavily last night (see Dreams thread). It really is about acceptance and my brain gets active if there are upheavals in my daily life. I might think that I'm dealing OK in the day but at night my brain tries to sort itself >:(.
Don't feel guilty Dulciana! If he wants to wake up and find you, that's OK! Where did he think you'd gone anyway ……. ::) he obviously settled enough to go back to sleep. Enjoy that cuppa. If I'm away out of bed I mutter 'need a pee' and it's enough for Himself to absorb ;-).
I am worse in the mornings, that's when anxiety can really take over. By 7.30 p.m.-ish I begin to relax, all my commitments for the day, done.
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I find when i am on Oestrogen only phase of HRT i sleep so badly and much better when on Utrogestan. I'm hot and restless, more anxious and a bit sickly. At the end of the Oestrogen phase now and feel utterly exhausted. Can't wait to pop my Utrogestan tonight. xx
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HORMONES >:( ???
I could sleep on a linen line this afternoon ::)
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For the last four nights, I've been getting to sleep fine but then I've been waking up three or four times a night. The first wake-up has always been with Hubby's first snore (think he's got a bit of a cold) and then the rest have just followed on through the night. Also, we've been finishing off some left-over wine with our meals from the weekend and that's probably not helped. So tonight I'm going to see if sleeping in the spare room makes a difference - and we're going back to fruit juice. It's not that I want to get away from Hubby - and I can do without wine. I've got quite a lot on at the moment and I'm a bit stressed by all that, so I'm craving a good night's sleep. :-\
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Let us know how it goes. I woke earlier to find Himself trying quietly to recover the bedding from my side of the bed ;D. So I went to the bathroom to let him sort out how much of it he needed :D.
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Yes do Dulciana let us know how you go on pls !!
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I just cant sleep never have. I dont go to bed till 130am up at 730am if i sleep 5hrs yayyy
Last night horrible 4am still wide awake put the tv on for the 1st time fell asleep
Listening to worldvat war but inwas wide awake by 730am 3 hrs at most.
So i know how you feel xxxxx
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I hate that when you're clock watching through the night every hour on the hour it's so frustrating. I managed to go off last night with the aid of the Mirtazapine then woke up umpteen times throughout the night clock watching. At least I did better than the night before I couldn't go off that night.
Jan x
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That's even more frustrating Jan, taking medication and still not sleeping. >:(
S x
I know very frustrating!! You have to laugh I've tried everything!! Ha ha!
At least I'm now of sleeping pills now and i will not go on them again either.
Janxx
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Hi - I have been on mirtazapine for over a year prescribed due to chronic insomnia which caused anxiety and panic attacks; started on 15mg, then 30 then up to 40mg. Stopped the insomnia and the hot flushes; however, weight gain aplenty. Three months ago I started HRT and I have stopped taking the mirtazapine as I hoped by stopping I would be able to get back some control over my weight; sleeping better although I have noticed when I am anxious about something the insomnia returns; I also have hot flushes again; I am not as anxious as I am also on propranolol which I am taking regularly rather than on a "when needed" basis. Hope things improve for you. X
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Oh thanks fiftygirl how very kind!! I know the Mirtazapine not good for the weight side but the low dose seems to be okay still early days but it is helping a bit with the sleep. Yep the problem seems to be hormones causing the insomnia. I'm on 20mg of citalopram for the anxiety part and panic attacks. I still have waves of anxiety but improvements there and no more panic attacks thank heavens they were horrible.
Janxx
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I hate that when you're clock watching through the night every hour on the hour it's so frustrating. I managed to go off last night with the aid of the Mirtazapine then woke up umpteen times throughout the night clock watching. At least I did better than the night before I couldn't go off that night.
Jan x
Do you absolutely have to clock-watch, Jan68? If I do wake up, I don't let myself look at the clock at all. That way, I can't worry about it being 2am, 3am, 4am or whatever. Seems to help...... :-\
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No I don't need to clock watch as such but now I'm on Mirtazapine I'm seeing if there's any improvement time wise plus I'm up regular for a pee which doesn't help either.Even my pelvic floor specialist says I go alot through the night. I need to retrain my bladder I've been told haha never heard of that before but interesting never the less.
Thanks Dulciana
Janx