Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Ljp on July 25, 2016, 11:20:39 AM
-
Hi, I've been on mirena, estring and oestrogel 1.5 pumps since last December, and used estriol cream alone from a May last year until December.
Apart from hot flushes, horrendous anxiety and feeling depressed and brain fog, my worst symptom was overactive bladder. It has been much better generally, but I still get days, when for no obvious reason I have to rush to loo lots, today has been awful, I teach a dance class fir two hours on a Monday, and I e had to visit the ladies to pee FIVE times, it's horrible, comes on suddenly and urgently, horrible dull ache in bladder.
Urine is clear, I have no cystitis symptoms.
I can have days like this, yet other days it will be pretty normal, and bearable.
I try removing estring, in case it's pressing on urethra/bladder, but not sure it's made any significant improvement.
I tried upping oestrogel to two pumps, and think that did start to help, but I also ended up getting mouth ulcers,mand athletes foot, all things I used to get near my periods prior to menopause, no thrush though, thank goodness, as that was another recurrent problem in my pre meno days. So dropped down to 1.5 pumps again
Just wondering if anyone else has similar? And if anything has helped?
It gets me down, it's embarks sing and can be a nightmare on a journey or out shopping if it's having a bad day
-
I have had this problem for many years - I'm afraid this is simply something that some of suffer us with. I can sometimes pee 3-4 times a night and sometimes get up only once - often regardless of what I have eaten or how much I've drunk. During the day I sometimes need to pee often and then sometimes I can go 4-6 hours between pees!!!! It is advisable to avoid caffeine and too much alcohol as these have a diuretic effect. I do think drinking small amounts of water throughout the day is sensible and even if you feel you need to pee try hanging on for a bit - the bladder can shrink if not allowed to hold a good enough amount of urine before emptying. Also, very important, do make sure you properly empty your bladder when you do go, so really relax and sit there for some time and perhaps tilt the hips back and forth to allow it all to come out - I think it gets harder to properly empty the bladder as we age as the urethra becomes squashed - gravity does terrible things to our bodies. Dg x
-
Are you drinking enough? I think there is a way of controlling an 'over-active' bladder which needs correct diagnosis.
I find that using Ovestin aggravates mine the following day then symptoms settle again. If the estring is delivering daily maybe it's too much?
-
I do drink enough, maybe an odd day when I don't. I teach dance fitness classes too and drink at least l-1.5 letters of water during a class.
I'm not big on caffeine, although I do enjoy a nice cup of Coffee as a treat but that's not daily. I drink redbush/rooibos tea which is naturally caffeine free.
I just worry how it's going to be in years to come, I'm only 51 😟
-
Ah, that is probably way too much regardless of how much perspiration is released!
The first pee of the morning should be dark and may smell. During the day the pee should be straw coloured, any lighter and there is too much fluid going through the body! Food as well as liquid diverts to the kidneys.
-
CLKD Not sure I agree that one to one and a half litres is too much to drink during a workout, and it does depend on weather and how hot I'm feeling.
A friend of mine who drinks at least 2 litres of water a day, was recently told by her osteopath that she's not drinking enough.
I dont drink excessive amounts, in fact there are days when I know I haven't drunk as much as I should do.
-
Hi Ljp,
I can totally relate to your post!!
I also only have a cup of coffee as a treat too and drink up to one and a half of litres of bottled water a day and herbal teas one or two a day.
My doc has checked for infections and nothing there.
She thinks it's my pelvic floor issues causing it. Everything feels so different down there as my pelvic wall muscles are weakening and a mild prolapse in womb is going on. But anyway as DG said also I'm up 3 or 4 times a night weeing and frequency through the day too like you.
Im not on full hrt only vagifem every other night at first I thought it was vagifem causing it but I don't think so at all.
I'm seeing doc about it next week again.
I now use Hydromol down below to help with the irritation below. It's so annoying I know!!!
Take care janx
-
I drink 6 x 200ml glasses of water a day in addition to decaffeinated or camomile teas, if I don't my mouth gets very dry. My morning pee is certainly not dark and smelly, that sounds awful, although it is darker than daytime pee.
-
Do you also get the dull ache in your bladder at times?
I don't feel I have pelvic floor weakness, I have a pelvic floor toner and am able to hold the smallest one with all the weights on, for over half an hour while getting ready in the mornings.
I don't use it daily, but rarely is it a problem to retain.
I question whether the pelvic floor and bladder can become almost too tense dye to the urgency and frequency and having to hold myself
-
I do get a dull ache down there and also feel a burning sensation too. Ive been told it's not my VA causing it I'm on vagifem for that.
Also with the bladder thing I don't leak either. I am seeing a pelvic floor specialist physio.
I'm glad you don't feel pelvic floor weakness. It's so strange I don't understand it but I just muddle through. At the moment I don't work so that takes that pressure of me. I can't imagine an employer letting me having wee breaks every 5 mins god the anxiety if it all.
-
Hi Ljp,
I can really relate to this. Bladder issues were my first peri symptom (which apparently is fairly unusual). I do get a dull achy feeling (but never sure if its more in the vagina area?). For me stress/worry/anxiety really heightens the problem - the constant frequency just adds to the worry :( I have no leaking etc and I can hold but it gets very painful.
I have been using Estring for the last 5 weeks and upped estrogel to 3 pumps.
Previously I have had the urethra stretched, as apparently it was very narrow (normally only seen in post menopausal women).
I do think holding wee (even though there is not much there) has had a big impact on my pelvic floor - I think the whole area is tight, I am seeing a pelvic floor therapist, but this has been of little help so far.
Any way sorry I can't offer any solutions, just know I truly understand how you feel. Lets hope we find something one day that
helps xx
Also I avoid all caffeine even chocolate :'(
-
Hi Ljp - this sounds like Overactive Bladder Syndrome. https://www.nbt.nhs.uk/sites/default/files/attachments/Overactive%20bladder%20syndrome%20(OAB)_NBT002734.pdf I would ask for a referral to a bladder/continence specialist as the longer you leave it the worse it may get. You need to retrain your bladder which can take time but is worth persevering with.
Taz x
-
What would an osteopath know about how much is correct for your friend? The only way to tell is for the GP/Practice to arrange an input/output chart!
A lot of 'advice' about how much a person should drink daily is pushed by the Bottled Water Companies. One doesn't see your local water Company advocating such information. We take in fluids from other sources, i.e. food which is diverted to the kidneys as necessary.
A person can drink too much which can B fatal as it depletes the body of essential minerals.
One should drink when 1 is thirsty or if one is exercising enough to cause regular sweating. Seeking advice from a trained sports professional may be the way to go i.e. from a cycling or running club. I read at the weekend that some of the 'sports' drinks aren't worth buying, that plain old water will do ;-).
-
this is from the NHS Choices website, nothing to do with bottled water companies
'The Government produced Eatwell Guide says we should drink six to eight glasses of fluid a day. Water, lower fat milk and sugar-free drinks including tea and coffee all count.'
I was once advised by a nutritionist that if you wait until you actually feel thirsty that you are already partly dehydrated. That's what thirst is.
-
How large is a glass though?
-
To be honest, how much I drink has little relevance on how much I pee, I can pee lots of times in quick succession first thing in the morning, when I've had nothing other than a glass of water or a redbush tea.
Mine is very much urgency and overactive, I do struggle to hold it when the urgency takes me, it's like my urethra can't stop it, yet my pelvic floor is capable of holiding my aquaflex weighted cones without any problem.
It's not bad all the time, but guess that it's not just oestrigen related as I'm using both estring and oestrogel, so now feeling awful, like do I really need to be using HRT if it's not helping my most distressing symptom?
I know it's helped my hot flushes and brain fog and anxiety, but the bladder and frequency problem is awful.
-
Also to add I'm always worse in the morning, as the day goes on it improves
-
Have you been referred for any help with this problem Ljp. I think it's important that you address this now rather than wait as it can get worse as you age and oestrogen levels drop. There should be a continence clinic/ pelvic floor specialist nurse in your local hospital which will assess you and give you the appropriate exercises to re-educate the bladder.
Taz x
-
Good thread here!! I'm now going to ask for referral to bladder specialist and bowels I've been patient enough it just gets worse!!
Good link Tax2
-
Glad it's been useful Janice! My brilliant pelvic floor specialist nuse (now sadly retired) had a sign on her desk reading "It's every woman's right to be dry" something that she felt passionately about and spent all of her holidays out in Africa helping to diagnose and treat women who had been left incontinent following childbirth and who had to live isolated from the community in huts on the edge of the villages. A fantastic woman with a really great sense of humour.
Taz x
-
I agree with Taz - also, apparently, we can do our Kegle exercises 'wrong' ::)
-
Glad it's been useful Janice! My brilliant pelvic floor specialist nuse (now sadly retired) had a sign on her desk reading "It's every woman's right to be dry" something that she felt passionately about and spent all of her holidays out in Africa helping to diagnose and treat women who had been left incontinent following childbirth and who had to live isolated from the community in huts on the edge of the villages. A fantastic woman with a really great sense of humour.
Taz x
She's sounds a great lady Taz2.
-
No I've not really discussed with my GP, only mentioned it initially and after talking decided to try estriol cream, which dud help,then had a post meno bleed resulting in hysteroscopy, and mirena, estring and then started using oestrogel too.
It's not bad all the time, and I really felt the HRT was helping, but just recently I'm having bad days again.
I've just bought some herbal tablets from boots which I read up about
http://www.urostemol.co.uk/uk/urostemol/for-women/urostemol-femina.php
So going to give them a try.
I will go to see my GP but the thought of bladder training regime, which I have read up on before, it really doesn't appeal!
-
It's really not as bad as it sounds Ljp. I had really good results for quite a few years following my "training". I particularly enjoyed the bio-feedback ;D This link explains what's happening http://patient.info/health/urge-incontinence.
Are the tablets for short-term use? A work colleague tried them after she had a bout of cystitis and it made her more comfy but I thought she said that she was only allowed them for four weeks? I don't think they will help the overall problem but may make you feel better in the short term? I would say go and get a bladder assessment if your doc will refer you. I wish I had tackled my problem earlier.
Taz x
-
It says they can be used long term on advise from doctor.
I'm hoping they have an effect
-
As long as your GP has advised then that's obviously ok although it's a shame you haven't been given a referral to deal with the underlying problem. It's a bit like putting a plaster on a deep cut to stop the bleeding but never having it stitched if you know what I mean? Oxybutynin is usually prescribed for overactive bladder or urge incontinence especially if you are not suitable for bladder training or eventual surgery. Worth bearing in mind if the herbal remedy isn't suitable.
Taz x :)
-
Thanks Taz, I have booked to see my GP in two weeks time so I can discuss both my HRT needs/or not, and my bladder, and by then I will know if the urostemol,are taking effect, must say I wasn't up at all last night though!
Reading about the effects of the 'Fink' from pumpkin seed, it has a tissue building effect, so can't see that it's just masking the problem (if it works)
I am also using my pelvic floor cones daily, and can hold the smallest cone with all the weights without any problem, even in the shower! I can hold it easily for ages, another reason I struggle to understand my bladder issue 🤔🤔
I will see what Dr has to say, my lovely Dr retired recently and this will be the first time with new one, there seems to be two lady Dr's that job share, so never sure who will be available
-
Yes it does seem strange that your pelvic floor appears strong but the bladder is misbehaving. I've read that low oestrogen levels can lead to urge incontinence and bladder instability even with a strong pelvic floor so hopefully HRT would sort this out for you. The other possibility is of a bladder stone or polyp within the bladder which can irritate it. I had a cystoscopy to rule this out some years ago as I had a strong pelvic floor (thanks to the clinic!) but still had stress incontinence and the consultant wanted to check that my bladder was healthy. It was and after starting on HRT things were much better for quite some years. Let us know how you get on.
Taz x
-
Ljp - this may sound odd but I actually think we can overdo the pelvic exercise thing. When I do too much of the pelvic exercises I get burning and need to pee more often as a result. I have actually learned to relax my pelvic floor better - especially when I pee - as I now realise my urethra is getting squashed (probably due to gravity) so possibly don't empty the bladder as well as I used to - this will result in urine retention which will inevitably cause irritation and the need to pee more. I think this is where the continence clinic comes in - they will assess you properly and advice accordingly.
I know you have resisted the whole HRT thing but I'm pretty sure if you ask your GP whether you still need it they will simply say you should stop HRT if you are not happy - they won't necessarily go through the dos and don'ts or indeed the benefits. Your need for HRT is entirely up to you - try to remember how you felt before you started HRT and how you feel now and then make a list of the pros and cons for you. If you simply feel you are being a failure because you are using HRT, well this is really not a good enough reason to stop HRT and reduce your quality of life - you do also need to consider your work life and those close to you as well.
As someone who teaches keep fit etc. - so really active - I also think the pressure on you to be an example of true fitness is great - I suspect you don't want anyone to think you are looking and feeling good because you are on HRT?
HRT is probably enabling you to continue working and doing your fitness classes.
I had a nurse at our GP practise comment to me, when I had my yearly check up, that women only took HRT to stay looking young!!!!! When she weighted me I was horrified to discover I had put on 3-4 pounds and she then proceeded to tell me how to loose weight - she herself needed to loose at least 3 stone!!!!
I would ask to be referred for the overactive bladder problems - it could be really helpful. However, I do think we need to accept that bladder issues are all part of the ageing process especially if we lack oestrogen.
Dg x
-
Hi ladies.
I just saw this thread, the doctors can prescription a drug called Oxybutanin for an overactive bladder. This drug helps with the muscle tone of the bladder thus avoiding the jittery times it makes tmyou need to pee all the time, can be given long-term too.
Hope it helps.
Ms Saucy ....xx
-
That's interesting what you said in your post DG about when you do your pelvic floor excerises and the burning and peeing more. That's what happens to me when I do my pelvic excerises. Is it being overworked is that why that happens?
Interesting your post!! Janxx
-
You will have hypertonic pelvic floors and will need to do reverse kegels look it up.
-
Thank you all for your replies.
Re pelvic floor exercises, I've only started doing them again recently, as in the this week 😊 I was just saying though that I am able to retain the smallest cone with all the weights, without any problem, which makes me question if pelvic floor strength is actually fine, or even 'hypertonic'
All I know is, the excessive peeing and urgency is driving me mad, I know it's not all the time, mornings are always worse, but I hate how at times I no,sooner go, then literally within 10-15 mins I can need to go again.
I had a full pelvic ultrasound scan last year, and had to go with a full bladder, then scanned again after peeing, and it showed bladder ok, and emptying fine.
So I'm really baffled by what's behind all this.
Thinking back to my days as a hairdresser in a salon, I often had to hold myself, as rushing to the loo wasn't an option, I think I've always had a weak bladder, even at school I was the one that had to go pee every break time.
I also know that stress and anxiety makes matters worse, even excitement and anticipation of a journey will cause excessive trips to the loo.
Coffee (special treat not daily) will cases several trips to the loo in quick succession, as will wine (again special treat, not daily or even weekly)
I'm just tired of it now, I was prescribed vesicare a few years ago, but wasn't happy to use it as side effects are dry eyes and I have already had issues with that!
I'm hoping the urestomol will help, and I will see what GP has to say in two weeks time. Meanwhile I'm keeping a diary of trips to the loo.
But there lies another problem , I think the more focus I give it, the worse it is!
DG re HRT you are right in so many ways, I do have anxiety regarding it, not helped by new GP saying 'there is still a lot of differing ideas on HRT, and if you were to get breast cancer would you kick yourself?' ....BUT without a doubt it has helped me, I find sorting out how much oestrogel to use is tricky though, 1.5 pumps is minimum amount that keeps symptoms at bay, but I think 2 pumps has a better effect on bladder (even though I am using estring too) and question whether even slightly more might help? but after experimenting on two pumps for a couple of months, my old pre meno issues of athletes foot and mouth ulcers returned, so I dropped back to 1.5 pumps about 3 weeks ago, and this week my bladder hasn't been good, but then again am I just stressing about it and making it worse?
Apologies for long post, just getting thoughts out of my head xx
-
Ljp - if I remember rightly, you are are still quite young and actually 2pumps per day would be an average dose for you. We do store oestrogen a bit so slightly changing the amount you use won't actually make much difference. Sometimes over thinking things can make it all worse - do try to relax a bit more - perhaps less of the pelvic floor exercising and more meditation????
Just forget about the tiny breast cancer risk and focus on the benefits of good bone density, healthier heart, fewer bladder and VA problems and a reduced risk of bowel cancer - also the reduction in meno symptoms and better quality sleep so an overall better quality of life.
I still think some bladder training would be beneficial for you. I tend to go quite often first thing in the morning - I see this as the body doing a flush out at the start of the day. It is considered quite normal to need to pee twice in the night as well when meno hits!!!! DG x
-
I had breast disease but if I needed full HRT I would push for it. Quality of Life is more important to me.
When I have anxiety attacks, as I come down I have to pee - lots, every 10 mins. for hours :-\
-
Funny you mention meditation DG, I've been following an app called headspace as trying hard to lessen my overthinking and anxiety, which incidentally is MUCH more bearable since being on HRT , finding the headspace programme very helpful though
I'm 51 DG X