Menopause Matters Forum

Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: GypsyRoseLee on February 19, 2016, 10:56:48 AM

Title: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 19, 2016, 10:56:48 AM: After waking yesterday feeling so much better and calmer, my mood started to dip again mid afternoon. Felt agitated and anxious all evening, but managed to drop asleep on the sofa for a few minutes.

Went up to bed, with the nasty suspicion that I wouldn't sleep because I felt off and jittery.

Well, I had a dreadful night. Zero sleep. Waves of anxiety washing over me all night. Felt absolutely desperate inside. Just awful. Took 10mg of Amitriptyline, but it did nothing. I felt if I got up and walked I would faint and fall over.

In the end, got up at 6am and took 20mg of Amitriptyline, hoping it would help me nod off. But it didn't. I just lay on the sofa feeling dreadful. This is as bad as I have ever felt.

Popped in to see my GP this morning. He told me that I could have too much oestrogen on board, hence the nausea and dizziness (I didn't know too much oestrogen = nausea).

He recommended I remove my 50mg patch, 'because it doesn't seem to be helping you at all'. And that way, when I see Annie Evans I will be starting with a clean slate. He wouldn't start me on a AD as he said it wouldn't work over the next two weeks anyway, and I would only get the side effects. He's probably right about that.

That sort of makes sense to me, so I am now patchless. I don't know which way is up or down at the moment. I might 'go dark' for a while on here because I am sick to death of all my ups and downs, and sick of writing about them.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: vintagefiend on February 19, 2016, 11:16:00 AM: hi gypsy and sorry to hear that u had such a dreadful night- i totally hear what you say about being fed up writing/thinking about your symptoms.
i had a similar reaction to 200mcg evorel patch- and i was so sure it was gonna be the magic bullet- i stuck it for 3 days but really after 24 hours i was a loon!
u will feel better v soon- just need that damn patch to work its way out!
don't blame u for going dark, we all need to do that now and again (i don't expect a response to this!!!)
Brilliant that u have an appointment looming with an excellent doctor- hang on in there x
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: jedigirl on February 19, 2016, 11:45:09 AM: Good luck GRL, we're here if you need us xxx
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: jedigirl on February 19, 2016, 11:52:39 AM: Grl,
If youre still here am i right in thinking you did okay on Utrogesten and a form of oestrogen? Why did you come off it? If you don't mind me saying you seem to have been on so many different things maybe you need to choose the one that has been most beneficial and stick with it longer?
I have been on Utrogestan and Oestrogel since last August and it's the one thats worked well for me. I have weepy down days but had these all my life.
hugs xxx
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 19, 2016, 12:01:53 PM: Hi Jedi. I am really fed up with myself for chopping and changing too much. My GP told me it would cause problems if I did.

Yes, overall I think I did best on a 50mg patch with separate Utro. I stuck with that for 3 months but still got breakthrough symptoms on a regular basis. So I switched to the BCP hoping it would be more controlling.

I'm now questioning whether I should have removed my patch this morning?
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: coldethyl on February 19, 2016, 12:05:53 PM: Hope you feel brighter soon. Fingers crossed that Dr Evans can help. I'm not on HRT so am experiencing days when I just feel a sense of black emptiness like I'm hollow inside and periods of intense agitation so I can empathise. I've personally found that mindfulness and cbt have been helpful in coping with it so maybe these are things to explore as well as medication that will come with its own host of problems. None of the drugs, be it HRT or ADs are a quick fix and if may, as others have said, be case of sticking something out for months rather than changing things so often.
I think your GP was right to suggest removing the patch as there's a chance now that you'll see what is the HRT and what is your own body throwing out spokes in the wheel. It sucks but it will pass xx
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: jedigirl on February 19, 2016, 12:09:26 PM: Oh hun, you're only trying to help yourself as we all are.
Can you cut the patch so you're not going cold turkey straight away?
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: dogdoc on February 19, 2016, 12:20:53 PM: GRL...you've been on so many different concoctions for so long I don't think you know what your body is doing anymore. You can't draw any conclusions because of the hormones your taking plus whats going on in the background. I was doing the same thing exactly in a desperate bid to feel better as soon as possible.

I think stopping everything altogether, monitoring when your symptoms happen, when you feel good etc. for several months wouldn't be a bad plan. You're still getting periods ( or you were before all the HRT stuff) so there's still some estrogen of your own kicking around in there.

Get a short acting benzodiazepine ( like clonazepam) and only take if anxiety very very high. You won't get addicted or gain weight if it's only very occasional use.

Do you feel bad at ovulation? Premenstrually? At the beginning of the follicular phase? ....good information to have.
Tara
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 19, 2016, 12:44:24 PM: Right, I have applied another patch. I had a hard think, and cannot think it might be making me worse? Looking back through my mood diary I have had lots and lots of good days and weeks wearing a 50mg patch, so it doesn't make sense that it might be making me feel really bad now?

And, I'm frankly scared to just stop it, I think I'm already feeling emotionally chaotic enough at the moment.

But I don't know what is causing what? I 'would' have finished the 2/10 combi tabs today, and would expect a withdrawal bleed just after the weekend. My own cycle was pretty much in sync with the 2/10/cycle, so I'm pinning my hopes on this awful dip being caused by my own progesterone spiking. I just really hope this awfulness goes away when my period arrives.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: jedigirl on February 19, 2016, 12:58:03 PM: Could be GRL, hope so.
I wonder if some of the problem is how involved in it all you are. I've been there, constantly scanning myself and analysing my moods. You're menopausal and it's shitty.
Do you feel your symptoms are mainly anxiety based now? Are you on any ADs alongside your hrt?
jg
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: coldethyl on February 19, 2016, 01:18:13 PM: Quote from: jedigirl on February 19, 2016, 12:58:03 PM
Could be GRL, hope so.
I wonder if some of the problem is how involved in it all you are. I've been there, constantly scanning myself and analysing my moods. You're menopausal and it's shitty.
Do you feel your symptoms are mainly anxiety based now? Are you on any ADs alongside your hrt?
jg

Glad that someone else asked this as I was wondering same. When I was having my breakdown over Christmas I was constantly checking how I felt what I thought, what might " cure " me and so on and all it did was make me much much worse. My mum who also suffered from anxiety for years said I was searching for anything to make me better but that only by stopping searching would I get better and I think there's an element of truth in that. You are so desperate to be better that you are placing an enormous burden on yourself and your body that is hindering recovery xxx
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Taz2 on February 19, 2016, 01:21:05 PM: I don't understand why you have put on another patch GRL when the doc suggested you go without until your appointment? All this chopping and changing wont be doing any good, in my opinion, and you wont have a clear base to start from. If you have been on HRT for some time (sorry haven't read all of the thread) then in my experience it is quite a few weeks before symptoms begin to kick in. I've been off HRT for nine weeks and have only begun to feel my symptoms starting to return in the last week.

Too much oestrogen can cause nausea and stomach problems even if using the patch or gel HRT.

Taz
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 19, 2016, 02:04:56 PM: Yes, I think you're right. When I am 'bad' like this, I just get overly panicky, flinging myself from pillar to post, desperate to feel better.

I spend too much time on here, and other similar places, just hoping to read some magic words that will magically make me feel better. And it's actually counter productive.

But when I am 'well' I am the complete opposite. I am very chilled and don't tend to post that much at all.

Actually, ***Stop The Press*** I think I know why I'm suddenly feeling so intensely dreadful. I think it's because I took Amitriptyline. I took 10mg at about 1am, hoping it would help me nod off (it's usually excellent for this). But this time it didn't work. I think by 1am I had almost gone past it? Always when I take Amitriptyline, I would take it at about 8pm, which would make me nicely sleepy for about 10pm.

I've never taken it after 10pm. And then I took 20mg more when I got up at 6am, hoping it would chill me out. But I have never taken it during the day before. Always during mid evening, then I would just sleep through any side effects.

I haven't needed to take any for ages, but did take 20mg at 9pm a few nights ago and fell asleep fine, and certainly didn't feel like this the next day. I should have taken the Amitriptyline much earlier last night, and certay not taken any at 6am.

How I feel right now, this awful very tired but very wired panicky feeling, is just how I felt when I tried taking Sertraline a couple of years ago. Same when.I tried Mirtrazapine. It seems too much of a coincidence?
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 19, 2016, 02:16:57 PM: Sorry, Jedi my above reply was to you, but I didn't really answer your questions, just went waffling on.

But, yes, my peri symptoms have always been about the anxiety, mood swings and sudden low moods. I have very few physical symptoms other than my periods did get much lighter and shorter a couple of years ago, and I suddenly started suffering with aching joints.

I have tried ADs. Sertraline sent me round the bend, and I could only stick it for a month, before switching to Amitriptyline, and I was on it for 7 months (but no HRT). It worked pretty well. I still have several packs of it left. I also took it years ago when I had PND and it worked well for me then.

I'm fully prepared to try an.AD alongside whatever Annie Evans recommends.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 19, 2016, 02:20:55 PM: Coldethyl, yes I am just like you, panicking and constantly searching for words of wisdom. But your Mum is right, it doesn't help at all in the medium-long term. It just makes you feel momentarily better.

And when panic and anxiety pounce, it's so awful that I go into panic mode desperate for something to make me feel better. I hate it, I really do. It's so unlike me.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 19, 2016, 02:25:01 PM: Hi Taz

I put a patch back on, after some thought, because wearing a patch has never caused me problems in the past. Infact iti usually been the opposite.

And, I had the sneaking feeling that this sudden, intense panic might be connected to taking some Amitriptyline at the wrong time (see my above post).

Plus, my GP is a total disbeliver in HRT working for peri anxiety or depression. He's made it very clear that I should just be on ADs for a few years.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: jedigirl on February 19, 2016, 02:44:42 PM: Bless you, it's such a trial isn't it?
I know for me i didn't stabilise until i'd been on Citalopram a while. Your symptoms sound as if you need an AD more than a different hrt but others will disagree.
Either way good luck xxx
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 19, 2016, 02:56:20 PM: Thank you Jedi.

I think I possibly need both in the short to medium term? An AD for maybe 6 months whilst the HRT regime Annie Evans recommends has chance to properly bed in?

Then I can assess. I think it was SallyG who had very similar anxiety/mood swings to me and Annie Evans started her on HRT + Citalopram, and she said Citalopram 'blended' very well with HRT.

I seem to remember her reporting back that she felt cured on that combination, and I haven't seen her around for a long time so assume she is sorted?
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: jedigirl on February 19, 2016, 03:50:40 PM: I love my Citalopram though did find i needed to up from 10-20mg during a stressful period and have stayed on it for now, as home life is very stressful and i need it. I think I am feeling as well as i could.
jg x
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: vintagefiend on February 19, 2016, 04:06:43 PM: Hi again GRL- just reading through your experiences, we sound very similar!
Like you, I've decided to find an antidep that works well enough to allow me to try hrt/birth control (again)...and i will prob have a reasonable length of time just on AD to give my body and brain a well-earned break! obvs if i feel fine on just AD i won't muck about with hormones but i suspect it won't fully alleviate anxiety/depression.
best of luck x
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 19, 2016, 04:08:33 PM: How long have you been on it Jedi? Did it take long to kick in?
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 19, 2016, 04:16:08 PM: Hi vintage. Yes I recognise everything you write about. I read somewhere that if you have been suffering with anxiety and mood swings for a long time, then you need a low dose AD to restore your brain chemistry?

It just frustrates me that I feel perfectly well for up to 2 weeks per month, but then it all descends into Hell.

I'm wondering if I'm also suddenly feeling so wretched because I stopped the oral oestrogen 2 days ago and swapped to a patch, and during this transfer my oestrogen levels have really dropped?

I don't know much about absorption from patches Vs oral, or whether the patch would immediately compensate for oral absorption?

And I can feel another sharp headache coming on! That'll be the third one in 4 days!
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Taz2 on February 19, 2016, 04:18:54 PM: Quote from: GypsyRoseLee on February 19, 2016, 02:25:01 PM
Hi Taz

I put a patch back on, after some thought, because wearing a patch has never caused me problems in the past. Infact iti usually been the opposite.

And, I had the sneaking feeling that this sudden, intense panic might be connected to taking some Amitriptyline at the wrong time (see my above post).

Plus, my GP is a total disbeliver in HRT working for peri anxiety or depression. He's made it very clear that I should just be on ADs for a few years.

Thanks that makes it clearer. I found that HRT makes my anxiety and depression worse - I can cope with it but my mood is definitely lighter when off HRT. I always suffered from PMS but thought that everyone did so never sought help. The only good thing about becoming menopausal at around 51 was the fact that I no longer had the mood swings. Of course then the meno symptoms kicked in at around 53 and I started HRT and the PMS returned. I did find it comforting somehow that for all of those years when I had blamed my hormones I was actually right! I hadn't imagined it - it was all down to the fluctuations. I hope you find something that works for you soon. You will get there.

Taz x
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 19, 2016, 05:33:40 PM: Thanks Taz.

I honestly don't know whether the HRT helps or hinders me, to be honest?

It everything I have ever read says it will improve the anxiety and mood swings, so.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: jedigirl on February 19, 2016, 05:37:19 PM: GRL,
I felt quite dreamy and carefree almost straight away then has a few days of awful headaches , some neck ache then it settled. Benefits seemed to improve over time and most days i am quite normal. I think I'm pushing at the boundaries of it this week but got lots to contend with so god knows how i'd be otherwise!
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Taz2 on February 19, 2016, 05:52:51 PM: Quote from: GypsyRoseLee on February 19, 2016, 05:33:40 PM
Thanks Taz.

I honestly don't know whether the HRT helps or hinders me, to be honest?

It everything I have ever read says it will improve the anxiety and mood swings, so.

I don't know if this has already been posted but it does explain that not all women react favourably to oestrogen http://psycheducation.org/hormones-and-mood-introduction/basic-information-about-estrogen-in-psychiatry/

Taz x
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 19, 2016, 06:19:01 PM: Thanks jedi. I'm glad it's working for you. It's definitely the AD I would probably ask for.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 19, 2016, 06:23:23 PM: Thanks for that Taz. Very interesting paper. I'm a bit worried though, as it says women should aim for oestrogen levels between 50 - 100. Well mine was just over 300 when I had my bloods done before Xmas. And that was while wearing a 50mg patch!

Oh dear!
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Taz2 on February 19, 2016, 06:43:58 PM: Which may account for your symptoms? Anxiety if your level is too high has been quite well documented I think?

Taz x
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Poppyflower on February 19, 2016, 06:57:23 PM: I just wanted to comment on that study....first of all it is by an American psychiatrist. In America the usual measurement for estrogen is pg/ml and not pmol/l as is the usual in Canada and I believe Europe. when you convert the 50-100 it is actually approximately 185-367. So GRL your levels seem about on par with what he is reporting also it has taken you to have a patch to get it even that high (in my opinion we do not really feel well until an even higher level, due to our levels being naturally higher for our younger age). However in that study it also seems they are speaking of birth control pills and premarin as the estrogens used to raise estrogen levels-both synthetic. I know from experience as do you, that those synthetic progesterones in BCP definitely affects my anxiety, and so even though levels of estrogen are higher.....the progesterone in those pills do not account for us to feel better. Just wanted to assure you that I think you are on the right track.....don't doubt yourself....stick with what is making you feel best.....but stick with it for a while before switching unless you are feeling absolutely horrible. I have now been on estrogen only patch for 6 months and only now am starting to introduce prometrium. it has taken this long for me to start feeling better......it is a long road, but you can do it and good luck with your appointment.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 19, 2016, 07:12:07 PM: Phew, thanks for that Poppyflower and for converting the amounts properly. I was fretting that I had too much oestrogen and hence the nasty anxiety.

I've been doing a lot of reading back through my mood diary in preparation for seeing Annie Evans. And after comi g off the BCP last Autumn, I went about 9 days not wearing a patch, while I started taking Mirtrazapine. But after 9 days I felt dreadful on the Mirtrazapine so applied a 50mg patch again. I felt a similar surge of anxiety/dread after applying the patch, but then it settled down after a day or two.

So I'm thinking that as I'm very sensitive to hormonal fluctuations, I actually react to the rise in Oestrogen?

But, I can.also see from my diary that I did pretty well on 50mg patches with separate Utro, getting extended stints of up to 2.5 weeks of feeling great. I'd certainly be happy with that right now.

And, I might have done even better on a higher patch? My gut reaction is that my body likes more, not less, oestrogen?

Thank you for your encouragement. I always read your posts with interest as I know you are progesterone intolerant too. How are you finding using Prometrium?
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: MIS71MUM on February 19, 2016, 10:44:21 PM: Hi GRL

Sorry that you are really suffering. I really feel for you and would echo what J & C say about the scanning, analysing and overthinking.

I am currently having CBT sessions for my anxiety and I really thinking you would benefit too once you've sorted your HRT/AD's out. When we are anxious we develop negative thinking patterns which cause further anxiety and drops in mood. When I first started seeing my therapist, I told her about my mood diary and she made me bin it. She didn't want me reading about moods as she said it would lower mine, cause a cycle and avoid me facing up to the situation. In addition, it was keeping me in my head and out of my life.

Whatever the cause of the anxiety, CBT gives you skills to deal with the negative thinking cycle. As others have said, it isn't a quick fix but its very worthwhile. I still fall down the rabbit hole sometimes, scanning, assessing and analysing but now I know where it leads me, I stop myself getting fully carried away.

I'm a fellow chronic anxiety sufferer and I know what you are going through...I hope this helps. There are some very good CBT books out there also.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 20, 2016, 09:32:25 AM: Thank you Mis71mum

I was told to keep a mood diary to try and keep track of symptoms and see how they corresponded to my cycle. And it has been really beneficial in provifing written proof that these awful moods DO lift (because when I am really down and anxious I am aleays convinced I will never bounce back). When I am 'well' I never think about my mood diary, and go days without writing anything in it. Then have to catch up in it, and just write 'Fine' on every page. But when I am 'bad' I write far more, and keep checking back in it for evidence that the current low mood will lift.

I have never suffered with any anxiety until these last 2 years, and I'm only just coming to terms with it now.

But I do agree that over analysing everything is negative. I did try CBT a couple of years ago, but frankly the therapist was pretty useless. Very young, and not very experienced. I got the impression she was just reading from a text book and not really understanding what she was reading.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 20, 2016, 09:42:05 AM: Oh, I pressed 'post' too soon.

Meant to add, that after having such a dreadful Thursday night and all day yesterday, I fell asleep on the sofa last night, just for half an hour.......................and woke up feeling as right as rain. Upbeat mood and zero anxiety.

How can I change so drastically in just 30 minutes? It is so extreme. If it wasn't happening to me personally, I don't think I would be able to believe it could happen.

I was still really tired after my nap last night (hadn't slept a wink Thursday night) so took myself off to bed at 8.30 and slept right through until 7.30 this morning. Woke still feeling as right as rain.

It's no wonder, as Prof. Studd says, that so many women are diagnosed, erroneously, with bi polar, when actually they suffer from hormonal anxiety and depression. The mood swings can be that extreme.

I suppose the big difference is that when I'm fine I'm certainly not manic, or hyper, I am just normal and happy to do normal stuff.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Kathleen on February 20, 2016, 09:53:43 AM: Hello GypsyRoseLee.

I just wanted to agree with you about the sudden changes in mood. Earlier in my meno journey I genuinely worried that I was bi polar as my moods seemed to turn on a sixpence ( now that dates me lol).

I hope you enjoy your day and find comfort from knowing that it's always possible to feel better.

Take care.

K.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 20, 2016, 12:18:38 PM: Hi Kathleen

Yes, I must admit that bi polar has crossed my mind more than once! But I'm never manic when I come out of these dreadful anxiety lows. I am just me, being normal again.

I won't deny though that chopping and changing my regimes won't have helped either. Whatever Annie Evans starts me on, I intend to stick with it for at least 3-4 months.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 20, 2016, 01:06:16 PM: Thank you sparkle.

Like you say, it is so extreme that it's scary. I'm really hoping that as time goes on and I get closer to menopause then they won't be as extreme anymore?

Posts like yours do give me hope though. When your mood was low did you get awful anxiety too?

Day 3 of your period is when your oestrogen is meant to be at its lowest. This could cause your migraine?
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Mary G on February 20, 2016, 01:26:45 PM: GRL, I glad you are feeling better, it takes ages for the dreaded progesterone to work its way out of your system and I once had a silent migraine 18 days after taking the last tablet. This proves it has a very long half life because synthetic progesterone/too much Utrogestan is the sole cause of my migraines. How long is it since you took your last dose of progesterone?

Low oestrogen will definitely cause migraine and many women get migraines before or at the begining of their periods.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: MIS71MUM on February 20, 2016, 01:47:58 PM: Yes GRL my anxiety only started 2 years ago and I hate it. And it just got worse and worse. I daren't go to a hairdressers now or drive! I mean what's that all about? I've been doing both of those things for nearly 30 years and only now they become a problem.

My therapist is brilliant - she's 50 and she's extremely tough with me but positive and knows exactly where I am coming from. In fact, I'll really miss her when I stop seeing her in the next few weeks. I do miss my diary though but I was falling into the trap of writing page after page about how rubbish I felt each morning....so when I got up that was the first thing I did and never gave myself a chance to see how I felt. I hope i didn't offend you by the way but I was worried about you.

All I want to know now is how long this damn peri will last!

All the best.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 20, 2016, 04:00:07 PM: Hi MaryG

I took the last combi tab, a week last Thursday, so 8/9 days ago. Last month, it also took about 8/9 days after finishing the combi tabs for me to recover, too (though I took the full 14 combi tabs, that time).

I suppose 8-9 days isn't that long really? But when you are feeling so dreadfully low and anxious, it feels like an eternity.

Did you see my post about how Prof Studd's team induced PND symptoms in new Mums via administering synth progesterone? It's frightening how dreadful it can make you feel, if you are intolerant of it.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 20, 2016, 04:09:25 PM: Mis71mum, you didn't offend me at all, honestly.

This hormonal anxiety is truly vile isn't it? It has hit me in just the same way as you, making me dread doing every day stuff that I used to do automatically.

So far, it has never stopped me driving, but there have been plenty of times when I have dreaded doing it.

My mood diary is actually quite small, just a pocket size, so not much room to write per day, which is probably just as well. But instead, when I am 'bad' I spend far too much time on here or Googling my symptoms etc. It's unhealthy I know. It makes me totally disengage from my life and puts me in a frightened little bubble, though at the time it actually makes me feel better. Odd?

My aim is to only come on here to give a bit of advice and support, but mainly post on the other forums on here about every day stuff. That way, I will know that my peri Hell is finally controlled and just part of my background. I am so sick and tired of it being in my foreground 24/7.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Hurdity on February 20, 2016, 08:09:31 PM: Quote from: GypsyRoseLee on February 19, 2016, 04:16:08 PM
Hi vintage. Yes I recognise everything you write about. I read somewhere that if you have been suffering with anxiety and mood swings for a long time, then you need a low dose AD to restore your brain chemistry?

It just frustrates me that I feel perfectly well for up to 2 weeks per month, but then it all descends into Hell.

I'm wondering if I'm also suddenly feeling so wretched because I stopped the oral oestrogen 2 days ago and swapped to a patch, and during this transfer my oestrogen levels have really dropped?

I don't know much about absorption from patches Vs oral, or whether the patch would immediately compensate for oral absorption?

And I can feel another sharp headache coming on! That'll be the third one in 4 days!

I'm only just catching up with some of the threads - there are so many!

I hope I haven't said this already as I haven't gone back to the beginning!! Its quite tricky as you say about comparable doses (of oestrogen) and the amounts given are only a rough guide because women vary so much in how much is absorbed from the different products and with different modes of delivery. So - the post-menopausal tablets give 2 mg oestrogen as higher dose but for peri-menopause this is medium dose, and also for oestrogen only preparations. Maybe this is to reflect that if you are peri-menopausal you still have a lot of your own oestrogen and "need" less when post-menopausal? 50 mcg is always a medium dose patch though?

Depending on your absorption you could be experiencing the change in delivery as an increase (you absorb the patches better than the tablets - or a decrease (you absorbed the tablets well). Increase and decreases in both hormones lead to - sometimes similar ones for different reasons so it's often difficult to attribute a particular symptoms to the rise and fall in a specific hormone. Only time will tell really. It's frustrating not knowing isn't it?!

I remember when I had natural periods my mood would change very quickly - I used to get the dreadful pmt just before the period - the irritability, tension, headaches (but not especially low mood) - mainly due to the progesterone withdrawal - my period would then start and after a couple of days even though I was still bleeding I could feel the tension melt away and I would feel normal again - which I know would be a combination of the progesterone withdrawal finishing and the surge in oestrogen as I started a new cycle. I can imagine how dramatic this must feel if even more extreme because it was so noticeable to me every cycle.

The migraines are either due to progesterone withdrawal or low oestrogen. I would suggest the sudden onset migraines are more likely to do with prog withdrawal because of the physiological changes that occur when we take prog and various cellular effects etc, but maybe it can be due to either? In my case it was prog withdrawal because I got them even when on HRT and oestrogen was constant and it was associated with that pmt tension you get just before the period.

Not long now before you see Dr Evans and hope you are still feeling OK :)

Hurdity x
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: MIS71MUM on February 20, 2016, 08:50:00 PM: Yes I'm seriously considering seeing Dr Evans as I really think I need hrt/pill. I've been on my AD's for 5 months now and am just tired out all the time. My get up and go has gone, the hot flushes are creeping in and have started to notice headaches again. Then of course there the anxiety.

Sparkle - how did you get through that awful anxiety, with AD's or HRT?
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Briony on February 20, 2016, 09:05:28 PM: Hi GRL

Really sorry to hear things are not good.

Only got a few mins now so apologies for short post (family here). Just wanted to say, nausea and dizziness for me is definitely a sign of low estrogen or fluctuating. I know this as I happened to have a blood test in the midst of a bad bout of it. Estrogen was 41 pmol.

Also, I had very similar side effects when I took Amitriptyline. In fact it affected me so badly I remember calling ooh doctor for reassurance!

Finally, have you read what Studd says about the number of women incorrectly treated for BPD when in fact it is down to ovarian dysfunction. Interesting - and reassuring - reading!

Apologies so disjointed! B xxx
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: MIS71MUM on February 21, 2016, 08:00:17 AM: I agree this site really helps and friends too who are going through the same thing too.
Even though I'm on AD's I still have anxiety and feel like I'm muddling through. So do feel at 44 I may need HRT as well.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 21, 2016, 11:55:58 AM: This is just too much of a rollercoaster for me!

Was fine all day yesterday, mood just nicely normal. We went out with friends last night and I really enjoyed myself (I was dreading this on Friday, when I felt so dreadful, and came very close to cancelling).

Had a couple of drinks, but wasn't even merry. Got home after midnight, still feeling perfectly fine. Then simply couldn't get to bloody sleep. Heart beat was fast too. Finally got about 3hrs sleep, maybe, but restless sleep at that with stressful dreaming.

Woke this morning feeling low, jittery and anxious again. Also got that weird, morning sickness style nausea again, where I feel really hungry but slightly sick at the same time.

It would be so helpful if I knew this was due to low oestrogen, as I could adjust my patch accordingly, but I really don't know?

I do know that insomnia/disturbed sleep is due to low oestrogen. But that's all.

Hurdity - thanks for your post, always so informative and useful. But like you say, it's next to impossible to tell what is causing what?

Sparkle - I take my hat off go you for soldiering on through hormonal depression and anxiety without any HRT or ADs, you must be a very stoic and strong person!

Mis71mum - I will keep you posted about my visit to Annie Evans. I am keeping everything crossed that she can help. If she advises a combo of HRT and ADs then that's fine with me. Anything, so long as I can get off this rollercoaster.

Briony - thanks for replying, I know you're feeling rough too at the moment. I've read that section on Studd's website a few times, for reassurance. I just very much wish I knew I needed more oestrogen, then I could just pop on another patch. But I just don't know? And I'm so reluctant to dicker about any further.

It's been 28/29 days since I last had a withdrawal bleed after finishing the first pack of 1/10. So I am hoping I might get a natural period any day now which might bring some relief and stability for a week or so, at least. I had a natural period at Xmas, despite not using any progesterone, and whilst wearing a 50mg latch. So hoping it will happen.again.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 21, 2016, 05:21:47 PM: I still think you must be much stronger than most sparkle. Certainly more than me at the moment!
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Lizab on February 21, 2016, 06:07:57 PM: If it makes you feel better, I think you're stronger than me, GRL. The days that I'm good, I'm fine, but when it goes down, I can't function. I was just having a good run and feeling confident enough to consider doing normal adult things like drive and shop, and now I'm back down again. This roller coaster blows.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 21, 2016, 07:11:59 PM: Thank you lizab, but I feel as emotionally feeble as a kitten today. I used to think I was pretty tough emotionally, but this hormonal anxiety has cut me off at the knees.

It was just the same, years ago when I had PND. I changed literally overnight from being assertive and self confident to being so pathetic and needy. My poor Mum had to virtually move in with us for the first 8 weeks after our baby was born, as I just couldn't cope at all.

So sorry you're heading back down on the rollercoaster. It is so draining and emotionally battering isn't it? You know you will ride upwards on the rollercoaster again, but it doesn't FEEL like it at all, does it?

It's so frustrating too, when you have felt 'well' for a while and you start to think that maybe this time you are finally on the road to recovery.

At my worst I can still 'function' but only in a very basic mode, I must admit. So I can still make myself shower and wear a bit of make up, but I can't bring myself to faff with fripperies like perfume or wearing anything 'nice'.

I can still make myself drive, but it's a real struggle. Same with shopping. I can only nip into a local shop. Can't face the supermarket at all. I feed my family far too much easy, convenience foods as I simply cannot bring myself to cook (and usually I love to cook).

But then when I'm well again, I totally blossom and revert to being very outgoing too.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 21, 2016, 07:15:49 PM: Well I'm still going to admire you sparkle for winning through to the other side.

I recognise what you mean about brain fog. When I had PND the ADs did take away the panic/anxiety so I assumed I was okay again. But actually I wasn't 'me' at all. I was deliberately living a much smaller life and only doing what felt 'safe'. I think you just do whatever you have to do to get through another day.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Briony on February 21, 2016, 07:30:29 PM: Actually, I reckon you're all winners. I bet the majority of people in our situations either do nothing and suffer in silence, or 'read and then run'. We've almost taken ownership of our problems - even if we haven't found solutions - by being so open and honest about sharing our experiences and highlighting our plights. People on here are so willing to offer advice, give a reassuring cyber hug, share their scientific knowledge, admit when things are bad, distribute research and basically help to erase all the taboos and ignorance which have for years clouded all things hormonal.

.... Here's to us all!

:ola: :medal: :drunk: :hug: :clapping:
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 22, 2016, 11:55:12 AM: Yes, very true Briony.

My mood slowly started to lift yesterday evening, and the awful anxiety faded into the background. So I was able to relax a bit and managed to get quite a good night's sleep.

Woke this morning feeling tired and emotionally very fragile, buy essentially 'okay'. Going to take things very gently today, as I feel like the slightest upset might set me off again.

The more I read, especially on Prof Studd's site, the more I think that I just need more oestrogen. My estradiol levels at Xmas were 305 pmol, and that was with wearing a 50mg patch. Studd talks about women with hormonal anxiety and depression needing levels of 600 pmol, or more in order to feel okay again.

But I simply daren't add another patch or anything right now. I have well and truly had my fingers burnt when it comes to chopping and changing HRT. There have been days this last week where I have felt as dreadful as I did during those first awful weeks when peri brought along this anxiety and depression. I had hoped never to feel that vile again.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Mary G on February 22, 2016, 01:08:25 PM: GRL, that oestrogen level is very low, no wonder you have been having so many problems.

I always work on pg/mL and that works out at 84.00 pg/mL which is far too low. To give you an example, when I was taking Angeliq and topping it up with a 50mcg patch, my blood reading was 75.00 pg/mL which was so ineffectual, I might as well not have bothered taking it. This level made me feel half baked and not where I should be at all.

The 50mcg patch is supposed to the equivalent of 2 pumps of gel but there is no way that this can be the case. My readings on 2 pumps of gel are radically different to a 50mcg patch.

I need high levels of oestrogen to feel good and I think you are the same. You would probably feel better on at least 600 pmol/l (163 pg/mL) or perhaps more. Many women go as high as 800 pmol/l and I remember a member saying recently that her gynaecologist said she bats on 800 pmol/l.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 22, 2016, 01:51:42 PM: Hi MaryG

I don't know how to convert pmol to pg/ml so I will just have to take your word for it, but it makes sense to me that it is actually very low, hence all these awful mood dips and anxiety.

But if it is so low, I wonder why no one has contacted me from the Meno Clinic? And no one has contacted me from my GP surgery?

Then again, on the print out of my estradiol levels, it says that 'the reference range' for:

Follicular phase is up to 606 pmol/L
Midcycle 253 - 1930 pmol/L
Luteal 121 - 804 pmol/L

So, on paper I guess my level of 305 is seen as fairly normal?

But I certainly don't feel normal, and doubt whether it can be normal for me at all?

God knows what it would have been without me wearing a 50mg patch???
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Chi chi on February 22, 2016, 02:07:25 PM: Reading this has prompted me to have another look at all my results since starting treatment.

Before I suspected hormones I had blood tests at the dr's, in Nov 2011 my estrogen was 307 and testosterone 1.4

Fast forward to June 2014 when I first saw studd, it was 125 and my testosterone was 0.4
By Sep it had increased to 1001 and testosterone was 8.3 interestingly this was when I felt the best that I've ever felt while on HRT.
Since then my levels have dropped and stuck around 437-474 my testosterone also stayed around the 8 mark but at my last test had dropped to 2.2.

Oddly in April 2015 I had my implants and my estrogen dropped from 1001 to 438??
Since starting HRT 90% of the time I've used 3 or 4 pumps
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Mary G on February 22, 2016, 03:11:43 PM: GRL/chi chi, the one thing I have learnt in all of this is that none of it is an exact science and what is supposedly 'normal' on paper is very often not the reality.

Just because one person feels good on one level of oestrogen doesn't mean everyone else will. Some women, myself included, need to be on a high level of oestrogen permanently.

Blood levels alone are not the best indication of how much oestrogen you need. The only way to really find out is to try different doses and decide which one you feel best on.

Part of the reason the Oestrogel is so successful is because it is flexible.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 22, 2016, 05:57:32 PM: That's very true MaryG

But if you decide to change your gel dose, how long are you meant to wait to see the results e.g. how long are you meant to stick with a dose?

I have thought all along that I probably need more oestrogen than a 'normal' amount that suits most women. I have always felt fantastic around ovulation, and was super fertile. I have always had very good skin, and still no lines or wrinkles despite being nearly 46!

But, conversely I have always really suffered with PMS and then PND. So, my body loves oestrogen and has been used to plenty of it, but equally it hates progesterone.

It's recognised that men have very different levels of testosterone, and usually have certain physical criteria in conjunction with this.

So why not women?
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Clovie on February 22, 2016, 05:59:54 PM: Ahhhhh! SO sorry to read your 'what a difference a day makes' take one didn't last!! :(

I got cheesed off on your behalf when I read this, your take 2! :(

I hate this. Hate not knowing if what we are doing to try to help ourselves is helping or not. Hate that its not an exact science, hate the guesswork, hate having to attempt to be our own doctor.

You have my total sympathy, and I'm sending a hug x.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Mary G on February 22, 2016, 07:13:22 PM: GRL, snap! My body likes lots of oestrogen too. You really need to try each dose for about a month. That way, you get the idea whether or not it is enough particularly in conjunction with the wretched Utrogestan. The fact that you always had PMS is confirmation that you need a lot of oestrogen.

Clovie, I got used to being my own doctor years ago. Many doctors don't know anything about the menopause or HRT so you have no choice. You cannot rely on your doctor for guidance if they don't know about the different types of HRT. The last time I spoke to my GP about HRT, I knew more about it that she did. It horrifies me that doctors are still putting women on the wrong type of HRT.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 22, 2016, 08:03:20 PM: Aw bless you Clovie, thank you x

I hate the guessing so much. I like things to be precise. As for being your own doctor, the first time I saw my new GP she assumed I was from a medical background as I knew more about HRT than her. I despair.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: skkb on February 22, 2016, 08:04:35 PM: I agree MaryG although my doc has always been understanding I often end up telling him something he didn't know about meno/HRT and I've really looked after myself regarding type of HRT and dosage. This in turn though causes me the anxiety of "am I doing the right thing" syndrome especially when I get odd symptoms and just feel weird, fuzzy, not with it......as previously posted I'm now back on HRT having had a break for a year and waiting and waiting for things to improve, sadly they haven't ....my body loves estrogen and the sweats have subsided now after two weeks back on.....but I'm 65 and started meno at 52..... For some of us it's endless
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Briony on February 22, 2016, 09:02:46 PM: Quote from: Chi chi on February 22, 2016, 02:07:25 PM
Reading this has prompted me to have another look at all my results since starting treatment.

Before I suspected hormones I had blood tests at the dr's, in Nov 2011 my estrogen was 307 and testosterone 1.4

Fast forward to June 2014 when I first saw studd, it was 125 and my testosterone was 0.4
By Sep it had increased to 1001 and testosterone was 8.3 interestingly this was when I felt the best that I've ever felt while on HRT.
Since then my levels have dropped and stuck around 437-474 my testosterone also stayed around the 8 mark but at my last test had dropped to 2.2.

Oddly in April 2015 I had my implants and my estrogen dropped from 1001 to 438??
Since starting HRT 90% of the time I've used 3 or 4 pumps

Mary's so right about it not being an exact science. I find it interesting that on no HRT, my estriadol was 41 pmol (though FSH was normal). Then a year later, on 100mcg patches it was 128 pmol. MY GP said 'this is normal - no action required' - but at 44 (age), I feel sure I could do with my levels being higher? Studd suggests that levels of 500-600 pmol are optimal? :-\
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Niamh on February 22, 2016, 09:03:41 PM: Some interesting stuff here. I definately agree with Mary about blood tests my ostrogen read about 180 when I first saw Studd and 250 at my 3 month check but I felt good on this. I had to drop from 3 pumps to 2 as 3 made me feel awful I think I'd be a wreck on blood tests of 600/800!! Lol I'm 41 and had PND and pmt but it seems I function well on perhaps 'lower' amounts. Just goes to show how it's not logical or scientific at all and see why Studd doesn't go by the blood tests.
GRL definately try each tweak for a month although the beauty of the gel is you can probably tell within 7/10 days and easily adjust!
Nx
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 22, 2016, 09:04:18 PM: I've not heard of the connection between oestrogen and PMS? Can I ask what it is? I thought it was all to do with me not liking progesterone?
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Niamh on February 22, 2016, 09:07:35 PM: Broiny maybe Studd suggest that on his website but I see him and he doesn't actually go by the bloodctests! Mine are much lower than this.

GLR don't know if it's my post which has made you tbink of pms and ostrogen?? My pms is definately prog related but too much ostrogen can give some pms symptoms, I got these when I was on 3 pumps but it did feel a bit different to my normal pmt but similar im terms of anxiety x
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Niamh on February 22, 2016, 09:09:21 PM: GLR just to add if you look up ostrogen dominance there are similarities to pms but don't drive yourself mad with it! See Dr Annie ☺️X
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Briony on February 22, 2016, 09:15:31 PM: I think what Studd means is that's the level required to suppress ovulation - the aim for someone with fluctuating hormone levels. With someone in menopause, it's different as your own estrogen isnt mucking around behind the scenes, so all you need is a top up. I think that's why so many of us in peri menopause have struggled with hrt. It's also the reasoning behind the birth control pill Qlaira.

This is from his website (two places) as what I've said above is a bit waffled!

As the ultimate cause of PMS is ovulation, it follows that the logical cure should be suppression of ovulation. Certainly this achieved by pregnancy, surgery or waiting for the menopause, but a more straightforward medical therapy should be considered.

There are now many studies showing that GnRH analogues remove the symptoms of PMS by suppressing ovulation and producing a medical menopause. An injection of Gonapeptyl, every month is ideal and 'add-back' HRT, will prevent vasomotor symptoms and bone demineralisation. The orthodox estrogen/progestogen preparations are useful but the PMS symptoms may recur with the cyclical progestogen. Livial seems to be an excellent alternative without bleeding or progestogenic side effects.

Ovulation can also be suppressed by moderately high dose transdermal oestrogens in the form of oestradiol patches or oestradiol gel. Appropriate doses would be a 200ugs oestradiol patch or 2 or 3 doses of oestrogel twice daily. Woman may occasionally feel a little worse in the first two weeks on this high dose, like an early pregnancy, but should be advised to continue as substantial benefit is almost certain if the diagnosis is correct. A longer term therapy would be a 75mgs estradiol implant inserted every 6 months. This like the patches and the gel will produce plasma estradiol levels of about 600pmol/L and abolish ovulation in most cases. However, women should be advised that this will not be used as contraception, as the appropriate tests have not yet been carried out.

Premenstrual syndrome is a common and sometimes severe group of cyclical symptoms with distressing physical and psychological symptoms that can seriously effect a woman's well being. These symptoms follow the hormonal changes (whatever they are-probably progesterone) that occur with and following ovulation. Therefore, these cyclical PMS type symptoms do not occur before puberty, after the menopause, during pregnancy, or after hysterectomy and bilateral salpingo oophorectomy. However, the typical cyclical symptoms do remain after a hysterectomy if the ovaries are conserved. Thus, menstruation is not a necessary feature for this condition and it would be more meaningful if the disorder was called the ovarian cycle syndrome (1).

In spite of frequent usage there is no evidence that progesterone is effective for treatment but there is ample evidence that progestogen makes the condition worse. Proven hormonal therapy for this condition is based upon suppression of ovulation. These are:

GnRH treatment over 3-6 months (2). This confirms the diagnosis and removes the symptoms but it is not appropriate for long term therapy without add back oestradiol and progestogen. The progestogen will reproduce the PMS symptoms as these patients are progestogen/progesterone intolerant.
Suppression of ovulation by transdermal oestrogens in the dose of 100Âµg or 200Âµg of oestradiol patch (3). Such patients also need cyclical progestogen for 7-10 days a month or insertion of a Mirena IUS.
Hormonal implants of oestradiol with the addition of testosterone (4) if necessary in the presence of loss of energy, loss of libido and depression. The same protection of the endometrium by progestogen tablets or a Mirena IUS is necessary.
Hysterectomy and salpingo oophorectomy with appropriate long term hormonal replacement therapy (5). In those rare patients with bleeding problems or progestogen side effects in spite of the use of a Mirena IUS.
The birth control pill, although it suppresses ovulation, is not usually effective because the progestogen component produces the PMS symptoms for most of the month rather than half of the month.
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Niamh on February 22, 2016, 09:37:15 PM: Thanks Briony I think I'd read this before because interestingly he never talked about trying to suppress my own cycle even though I'm definately early peri. I use 2 pumps which surely can't be enoughto suppress things but ive settled on this now and dont seem to fluctuate or feel my own hormones in the background up to tricks!. Ive given up analysing this though and im just enjoying feeling well and heh he knows what he's doing so im just letting him work his magic!
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Briony on February 22, 2016, 09:52:35 PM: Quote from: Niamh on February 22, 2016, 09:37:15 PM
Thanks Briony I think I'd read this before because interestingly he never talked about trying to suppress my own cycle even though I'm definately early peri. I use 2 pumps which surely can't be enoughto suppress things but ive settled on this now and dont seem to fluctuate or feel my own hormones in the background up to tricks!. Ive given up analysing this though and im just enjoying feeling well and heh he knows what he's doing so im just letting him work his magic!

I think that's the best way to go Niamh - if it works for you, then go for it. If this site has taught us anything, it's that we're all so different.

This is quite interesting to read (re PMS guidelines):

http://www.nickpanay.com/Papers%20pdf/Royal%20College%20of%20Obstetrians%20%20Gynaecologists%20PMS%20Guidelines.pdf
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 23, 2016, 09:12:31 AM: Hi Niahm

I was asking MaryG about the link between PMS and needing more oestrogen. She mentioned this in a post earlier on this thread, which intrigued me as I'd never heard that before?
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Clovie on February 23, 2016, 11:35:28 AM: Interesting, as I too had wondered if I wasn't getting enough oestrogen ???

I'd been on the 2mg Ellesste Solo oestrogen tablets for 3 years, and used to do OK. As the last few months have gone on my moods have gone down so badly I wondered if my own oestrogen was starting to drop lower. (I'm 52 now)
I have recently swapped to 3 pumps of oestrogel instead of tablets and my mood has been very much improved (but I am also taking a tiny dose of amitriptyline as well, only 25mg so hardly effective on mood dysfunction at that dose, and in any case I've only been on it a week and a half)
I'm inclined to favour the upping of my oestrogen - but what the heck - I'm no doctor, I'm just ploughing through this fog of perimenopause clutching at straws, stabbing in the dark and slinging mud, if you sling enough mud some of it might stick!! ;D
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 23, 2016, 05:53:19 PM: I'm so glad it's working for you Clovie.

Did you also get the awful anxiety when your moods started to drop a few months ago, too?
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Niamh on February 23, 2016, 06:16:36 PM: I did GLR pre the hrt, I had a permanent knot in my stomach and ran on anxiety. I lost loads of weight. The combination of the ostrogel and utro has stopped the anxiety and lessened my pmt massively, sleep is finally getting much better. That anxiety is dreadful I feel so much more relaxed now I used to get in a state about so many things which don't bother me now :)x
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Hurdity on February 23, 2016, 06:37:23 PM: Hi GypsyRoseLee - I'm not sure what your question is about oestrogen and pms but we've talked a lot about pms and the oestrogen dip - especially in your case where your moods change dramatically as you oestrogen levels change with your cycle - is this what you mean?

Studd said in Briony's post that pms is probably due to progesterone intolerance but elsewhere I am sure he considers it is partly due to the oestrogen dip in the second half of the cycle? It's all very complex!

What is certain is that - firstly, following or at ovulation oestrogen dips and then rises again, and then falls away until menstruation when it starts to rise again. Decreasing and low oestrogen in the second half of the cycle is thought to be responsible for some anxiety and low mood in the second part of the cycle. Secondly progesterone is produced during the second part of the cycle - which can give rise to pms symptoms in some women, and then its fall which can cause pmt - of tension irritability headaches etc.

Pms is the name given to adverse symptoms arising from hormonal changes in the second half of the cycle, which don't occur during the first - and cannot be due to oestrogen itself or increase in oestrogen. Excess oestrogen or too rapid an increase can cause symptoms ( I'm not sure what these are except in pregnancy ie nausea, breast tenderness etc?) and some of these may be similar to pms symptoms caused by progesterone (eg bloating, breast tenderness etc). Well that's how I understand it anyway! Confusing isn't it?! I don't think there is a consensus amongst the medical profession either - well someone tell me there is please!

It's also interesting to see how little oestrogen some of you absorb from what seems like a fairly high dose, but also perhaps how unreliable single blood tests are too. Briony - I am amazed that your doc could say that with those levels, and also that this is all you got on a 100 mcg patch!!

Hurdity x :)
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Briony on February 23, 2016, 07:53:15 PM: Quote from: Hurdity on February 23, 2016, 06:37:23 PM
Excess oestrogen or too rapid an increase can cause symptoms ( I'm not sure what these are except in pregnancy ie nausea, breast tenderness etc?) and some of these may be similar to pms symptoms caused by progesterone (eg bloating, breast tenderness etc). Well that's how I understand it anyway! Confusing isn't it?! I don't think there is a consensus amongst the medical profession either - well someone tell me there is please!

It's also interesting to see how little oestrogen some of you absorb from what seems like a fairly high dose, but also perhaps how unreliable single blood tests are too. Briony - I am amazed that your doc could say that with those levels, and also that this is all you got on a 100 mcg patch!!

Hurdity x :)

Thanks for the reassurance Hurdity. I was beginning to think I was going mad as it seemed low to me. (It was not long after a withdrawal bleed, but the doc didnt know this).

Interesting what you say about the effects of a sudden high dose of estrogen. I think that's what causes my physical symptoms - especially the painful/weird ones, along with the anxiety. On the other hand, 'normal' PMS (ie what I had before all this hormonal chaos set in) usually meant I tended to be impatient and speak my mind more than I would at other times (and then feel guilty the following day) and I'd also get annoying headaches. (More estrogen tends to help my headaches).
Title: Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
Post by: Clovie on February 24, 2016, 09:47:16 AM: Quote from: GypsyRoseLee on February 23, 2016, 05:53:19 PM
I'm so glad it's working for you Clovie.

Did you also get the awful anxiety when your moods started to drop a few months ago, too?

Oh absolutely, yes!

When I'm like that my anxiety is through the roof. I avoid speaking to people, avoid going out of the house without my hubby, I have a real feeling that people are looking at me and judging me, and that they don't like me, I'm afraid to drive, I startle ridiculously easily and little things that the kids do (teenagers) can send me insane and I start hollering - and then start blubbering and feel guilty, in fact any little thing can make me irrationally sad or angry :-\

I'm like you too - my moods can be so up and down I can feel like I'm having a good day, then BAM I'm back down in that hole peering out. For no apparent reason! :o
Arggh. I envy no one suffering these symptoms, and feel nothing but sympathy for anyone trying to make some sense of it all. x