Menopause Matters Forum

Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: GypsyRoseLee on February 12, 2016, 08:39:06 AM

Title: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 12, 2016, 08:39:06 AM
It was day 5 of my combi tabs on Femoston 2/10 yesterday. Felt anxious all day, and last night was miserable, only felt better just before bedtime, probably because I was just so tired.

Slept find, but felt very jittery on waking, and quite nauseous. This is just how I was last month on the combi tabs of 1/10. I am just don't think I can tolerate the synthetic progesterone at all, it just makes me feel wretched and despairing.

We're going away for a few days next week, and I just cane face the thought of feeling like this then. There have already been so many ruined trips and special days these last 2 years.

So, this morning I have started a new pack of 2/10 and I'm just going to stay on the oestrogen only tabs until I see Annie Evans in just under 3 weeks. I am still having a withdrawal bleed, so I'm not worried about the lining of my womb building up.

I don't actually know if I am definitely doing the right thing? I had hoped that the higher oestrogen in 2/10 would oppose the progesterone more robustly, but it obviously haven't, and I just can't face another 8 days of this + another few days while the oestrogen only tabs kick in (which is what happened last month).

Wish me luck x
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 12, 2016, 10:35:25 AM
Thanks sparkle. It's not what I want to do, I feel I'm being feeble by giving up. But I really suffered through the combi tabs on 1/10 last month, and history is just repeating itself this month. Within 36 hours on the combi tabs all my symptoms were back.

I am soooooo angry that I can't tolerate progesterone. Then again, my body hates even my own natural progesterone hence a lifetime of PMS, so it stands to reason that I won't be able to deal with synthetic progesterone, even the kinder one in Femostan.

Just hoping being back on oestrogen only will really lift my mood over the weekend.

Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Tinkerbellj on February 12, 2016, 12:14:43 PM
Just wanted to say I was exactly the same lifetime of pms and 6 different hrt later including femiston and now on nothing waiting to get baseline bloods done again. Not much hep but just wanted to give a bit of support totally empathise xxx
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 12, 2016, 12:41:58 PM
Thank you Tinkerbelji, I know you have really been through the wars with similar symptoms too.

How are you coping on no HRT? Better or worse?
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Tinkerbellj on February 12, 2016, 04:34:42 PM
Im not sure lol moods r still really low but haven't had any flushes and the stomach pain has gone. So much for diverticulitis.  I swear the hormones in the hrt were aggravating my stomach or my endo....not that gp or gynae believed me. My period is due today and exactly 28 days since my last one I can feel its on its way. Totally regular and always have been thats what I don't  understand even on the mirenA I still had a period every month all be it ligjter. Weird thing too my boobs r really sore.never were on any of the hrt. I think I am just really weird!
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 12, 2016, 04:58:51 PM
We're both weird. My boobs used to be agony back before peri, but since peri they suddenly shrunk a bit and were never painful again. Even on HRT and BCP they never changed.

Then suddenly, on Femoston my boobs have been painful and swollen for the last 4 weeks.
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Lizab on February 12, 2016, 05:19:19 PM
Aww, GRL, I hope you have a stretch of good days for your trip. I completely sympathize.
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Kathleen on February 12, 2016, 05:40:47 PM
Hello GypsyRoseLee.

Just wanted to send hugs and staying on the oestrogen only tabs is exactly what I would do in your position. It won't do you any harm until your appointment. I am one of the ladies that agreed to eat floor polish if it would help and I still would lol!

Wishing you well, enjoy your trip and look forward to a fresh start with Annie Evans.

Take care.

K.
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 12, 2016, 05:42:14 PM
Thank you lizab.

I had a lovely stretch of those 10 good days last week, which made me realise how I 'should' feel. But the synthetic progesterone just seems such a huge stumbling block for me. But I know I'm not the only one who just can't tolerate it on here?

I'm already starting to feel a little bit brighter inside as it's been nearly 36 hours since I last took a combi tab.

Unless you've suffered from severe progesterone intolerance, and the awful anxiety and misery it can cause, it's hard to understand how dreadful it can make you feel.

Why is progesterone intolerance so rarely discussed openly? Some GPs refuse to believe it exists! That Spanish consultant I saw at the Meno Clinic was very dismissive when I said I had reacted badly to the Mirena.

Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 12, 2016, 06:01:37 PM
Thank you Kathleen, I know you're a fellow mood swings/anxiety sufferer too. Yes, I would drink rat pee if it would stop the symptoms!

It's just so frustrating how awful synth progesterone makes me feel.

I wonder if perhaps too much risk is attached to only using oestrogen? If Prof Studd advocates only using 100mg of progesterone for just 7 days per month (and he is the world expert) then why on Earth does HRT often contain TWICE that amount of progesterone and you have to take it for TWICE as long per month???

Most women struggling with HRT, struggle with the progesterone component, so taking progesterone for half the month is like throwing lighter fuel on to a fire, surely?

At the Meno Clinic the one decent doctor I saw had a very laissez faire attitude to when/how often I took the Utro. She had no problem at all with me going 6 or even 8 weeks without Utro. She just told me to make the Utro 'fit around my life'. And I took Utro 200mg 3 times...first time only for 11 days, second time for 10 days, third time for 12 days and the withdrawal bleed was exactly the same each time.

I do believe the amount of progesterone we're told to take in most HRT is far too much, for too long. It's crazy that we're all told to take exactly the same amount, regardless of age, lifestyle, weight, symptoms etc. It is SUCH a blunt tool!
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Niamh on February 12, 2016, 06:09:52 PM
Oh GLR im so sorry to read all of this :( I totally emphasise we have very similar backgrounds of PND, chronic pmt, severe prog intolerance and that nasty Mirena sending us both mad! I totally know that evil anxiety and depression. As you know I see Studd and I think he's brilliant for ladies like us and his regime is the best. I am certain Dr annie will give you this so I wanted you to have hope. I still get a few issues namely sleep related and a bit grumpy on the Utro BUT compared to where I was its a million miles away. I use utro 100mg for 7 days vaginally, it still causes me issues and this month I gave up at 6 days but I'm still getting a good bleed. Anyway big hug there is light I really think this will work for you and can't wait to hear about your visit to Dr annie x
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Niamh on February 12, 2016, 06:14:48 PM
How did you find the Utro before btw?x
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 12, 2016, 06:17:24 PM
That's so kind of you Niamh, as I do need some hope to cling on to.

We are so similar in our medical history of hormone issues. I can handle a bit of grumpiness or tiredness each month, but I just can't stand anymore of this poisonous anxiety and low mood that just descends out of nowhere.

Last night I felt so dreadful and knotted with anxiety that I had to ask DH to collect our DC from a party as I just couldn't face the drive, trying to find the house, well everything. It is SO not me, to be like that and I hate it.

I can't wait to see Annie Evans and expect her to recommend the regime you are on.
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 12, 2016, 06:19:55 PM
I think I was pretty okay on it? I took 200mg orally each time. I expected huge rolls of thunder the first time I took it, but it was actually an anti climax. I think I might have had issues when I stopped taking it maybe? Need to check back.in my mood diary.
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Niamh on February 12, 2016, 06:36:30 PM
I found even 100mg orally dreadful but vaginally a different ball game. It makes me knocked out and tired the first few days and day 1 really nauseous like morning sickness. Then by day 4-5 grumpy and sleep starts to get a bit dodgy then yes definately coming off it for 2/3 days I feel rough but it's nowhere near as bad as the anxiety, depression and insomnia I had...this left me just literally sobbing in a corner wanting to crawl under a stone so I totally get it!!!

This will work for you honey hang in there. I still get rough patches tho when I despair but Its still never as bad xxx
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Mary G on February 12, 2016, 07:06:57 PM
GPL, I am with you all the way on this and completely agree that the progesterone part of HRT is over prescribed.  When you are intolerant to synthetic progesterone, it is horrendous and the side effects are life ruining and unless you have experienced it yourself, it is difficult to imagine just how bad it is. 

It is actually impossible for all women to need exactly the same dose of this progesterone, it just doesn't work like that, nothing ever does.  If you lined up 10 post menopausal women, all without underlying health issues, and gave them all identical amounts of oestrogen and synthetic progesterone/Utrogestan, they would all have very different levels of symptom control, side effects, levels of oestrogen in their blood and different womb lining measurements.

Like I said before, if the bar is set too high, women will either cheat (done it myself loads of times) and skip part of the progesterone dose or come off HRT altogether and then face a whole host of other health problems.  The only way round it for those who are severely intolerant to synthetic progesterone/Utrogestan is to take a low dose and then arrange to have a scan straight after a period - probably best to do a few months before the scan.  That is the only way to find out for definite if you are taking enough and of course there is always a chance that you will be unlucky and need to take more but at least you will know where you stand.  You might have to pay for it yourself but what are the alternatives?
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 12, 2016, 07:29:47 PM
Thanks again Niamh

I never tried Utro vaginally, but it sounds like the best method for someone like me?

I don't expect any regime to be perfect, nothing ever is. But I just can't stand 14+ days of progesterone intolerance like this each month, it's just inhuman.
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 12, 2016, 08:10:41 PM
Thank you MaryG

It's something that has bugged me for quite some time, this 'One size fits all' slap stick approach to progesterone. After all, progesterone is a powerful hormone, with known highly negative side effects for some women (my new GP admitted that certain synth progesterone 'can send women psycho'). Yet, doctors just don't make any distinction in dosage of it.

It just seems ridiculous and incredibly heavy handed. I suspect that thousands of women, who desperately need HRT, give up on it because they just can't tolerate such high doses of progesterone for half the month. God knows what they suffer? Or do they just end up on ADs instead?

There's no point in the NICE guidelines suggesting HRT as the first line treatment for peri mood swings/anxiety/depression, as opposed to ADs - when the HRT itself may well exacerbate these symptoms for half of each month.

If a peri woman is struggling with hormonal mood swings and anxiety then it is very likely she is progesterone intolerant. So dosing her with high levels of progesterone for half the month is just, frankly, stupid, pointless and potentially dangerous.
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Mary G on February 12, 2016, 08:23:11 PM
GPL, well said and my thoughts exactly.  The guidelines for HRT were wrong for years and have recently been changed so now is the time to look at the guidelines for synthetic progesterone.  A flexible approach is needed together with solutions for women who are severely intolerant. 
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Night_Owl on February 12, 2016, 08:36:37 PM
GRL, progesterone intolerance is a really big issue for some women (myself included as I'm highly prog intolerant and struggle with taking Utro 100mg v-route x 12 nights every 6 or 7 weeks - it is a real battle mood wise/depression whilst taking it and then afterwards with the withdrawal.  Even on estro only, I'm not that good in terms of a stable, content mood.)

You probably know this:  The Panay Meno Clinic told me that prog intolerance is the main reason women give up on HRT - roughly 20% of women who take HRT are prog intolerant and within that category, roughly 10% are *highly progesterone intolerant*.  In the case of prog intolerant women, they are/were intolerant to their own natural prog, when they produced it, in their fertile lives.  In my experience, GPs don't seem to know much about prog intolerance.

As suggested by the Clinic - a hyster - I would not want to have this just to be able to take estrogen only - there's also no guarantee that taking estro only would be the answer.  Nor do I want the Mirena, for various reasons, apart from the prog intolerance.

You make a really good point - HRT as a first line treatment - but the progesterone only exacerbates the symptoms of mood swings/anxiety/depression.  Vicious circle.

You may find these articles of interest:

http://writehealth.co.uk/hrt-progesterone-intolerance/

http://writehealth.co.uk/hrt-and-me-utrogestan-vs-cyclogest-natural-progesterone/

On this long HRT road, I've often felt that same - I've had enough of trying different types of HRT.

So much trial and error is truly exhausting - you have my sympathies. 

I hope you find a way forward.
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Lizab on February 12, 2016, 08:43:20 PM
My experience with Mirena (years ago for contraceptive, not menopause) is exactly why the gyne and the midwife wouldn't offer any hrt for me now. They said I was too hormonally sensitive and throwing more hormones in will unbalance me even more. But I had to try something. The Prometrium (Utrogestan) is not too bad for me. The first day or two I wake up groggy, then I'm ok, then I'm bitchy. In some ways I think I'd be better off taking 100 every day instead of 200 cyclical. But then I remember how the Mirena only turned bad for me after about a year when I guess it had really built up in my system. I think I'd rather deal with the cyclical ups and downs of it than deal with what I had from Mirena. Like you, I get a few good days here and there, just enough to remind me that I could feel well and there is indeed something off. Is there a bio identical progesterone cream available you could try?
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Mary G on February 12, 2016, 08:48:16 PM
Night Owl, that is interesting and Professor Studd suggested I have a hysterectomy.  The strange thing is, I was never intolerant to my own progesterone during my reproductive years and never suffered from PMS but I am severely intolerant to all types of synthetic progesterone and also Utrogestan if taken in large doses.

Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Kate50 on February 13, 2016, 05:40:00 AM
I've yet to take my 7 days of the dreaded U lol!  You aren't making it easy! ! Seriously though if this doesn't work for me I will be trying a homeopathic route I have used it in the past and it has worked for me.  It's a case of shedding the lining doesn't have to be progesterone that does it?? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Tinkerbellj on February 13, 2016, 08:11:43 AM
Meant to say as well I have beem going to reflexology and can highly recommend. My therapist is fantastic and I really feel it is helping. Def calmer!! Worth a try xx
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Briony on February 13, 2016, 07:39:20 PM
Agh GRL, I wish I had read this before I pm'd you just now. I'm so sorry to read that you're having a rough time of it again. Your plan does sound really sensible to tide you though.


Re Utro - I had a terrible time when I took 200 mg for 12 days. The withdrawal afterwards was emotionally hideous. However, on 100 mg vaginally for 25 days, I am not aware I am taking it. My only slight concern is that it is affecting my bladder and making me a bit itchy?

Hang in there - not long till you see Annie Evans now x
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 14, 2016, 02:05:10 PM
MaryG it's definitely time that HRT is overhauled to make it more tailormade for individual women, especially the ones with severe progesterone intolerance. But I doubt it will happen because the industry is so male dominated. And to quote male GP I know 'The problem with gynaecology is that women's problems are just so boring'.

Thanks for that.
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Mary G on February 14, 2016, 04:38:12 PM
GPL, women who are severely intolerant like us can only have tailor made HRT, nothing else will work.  The NHS should be offering regular scans to women who have to seriously limit their intake of synthetic progestins/Utrogestan - they seem happy enough to constantly scan pregnant women. 

There is a definite overlap between Family Planning Clinics and Menopause Clinics and I think they should merge.  With so many peri menopause women using the pill and menopausal women using the Mirena coil, it would make sense to put the two together giving women and joined up service.  These clinics should also offer uterine scans which all women should be routinely having anyway.  HRT should be offered to all women who are approaching menopause and the people administering it need to know what they are talking about so these clinics should have a gynaecologist who can do scans and fit coils etc. 

That was an extraordinary thing for the doctor to say when you consider there are so many areas of medicine where doctors are completely helpless and can do very little other than help someone die a more comfortable death.  A good gynaecologist like Professor Studd makes a difference and changes lives and can have a much more rewarding career than that individual ever will. 

Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 14, 2016, 05:02:19 PM
Night_owl thank you for posting that link, it's a real Eye-opener. We just don't tend to discuss how dreadful progesterone can make you feel if you're one of the unlucky ones.

But clearly this is a real issue for many women.

I have been on a couple of blogs written by women who opted for a chemical menopause via prostap injections, because their PMS was so extreme. They had the injections for 6 months and refused any progesterone (just took oestrogen).

They said the results were amazing and life changing.
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 14, 2016, 05:13:40 PM
Hi Briony

You know it's always fatal to ever mention on here that you might be feeling better!

I looked back in my mood diary for last year when I took Utro. I seemed to have only taken it 3 times, for 11 days each time. Seemed to be fine whilst on it, and then only dipping a few days after stopping it. Bleeds were light and no pains, or anything. Symptoms were primarily the sudden very low mood coupled with anxiety. Is that how it affected you?

At least reading back in my mood diary has reassured me that taking Utro shouldn't pose too much of a problem, compared to how dreadful the synth progesterone makes me feel.

It's a wonder that I could have ever felt good whilst on the BCP, but I did do, for up to 3 weeks at a time. I can only think the much higher oestrogen in the BCP did much to combat the synth progesterone side effects?

I would still love to know why, in the end, I reacted so badly after taking the BCP continuously?
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Mother bean on February 15, 2016, 10:00:27 PM
Hi GRL :foryou:,

I want to send you a virtual hug : :bighug: :bighug:

Good luck when you see Dr Annie Evans,  you will get on fine with her like I did, she is really lovely. One thing I wanted to suggest to you if  she does recommend the Utrostan that perhaps you split taking the daily dose of 200mg in two, i.e. AM before breakfast and PM at bedtime. I have been taking it like for a long time and find it good. When I took 200mg all together I woke up feeling really tired but by splitting I don't really find it that bad! Good luck sweetie! Ask her about the jittery feeling aswell, why do we get this on waking! Keep in touch!  :foryou: xxx
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 16, 2016, 03:19:05 PM
Thank you motherbean.

I'm really struggling at the moment. It's been 4 days since I stopped the combi tabs but I still feel awful, and I don't understand why?

We've been away for a couple of days and I haven't enjoyed a minute of it, my anxiety is so bad. I have just endured it. The only relief was when I had a splitting headache yesterday, which somehow stopped the anxiety getting through?

I can't wait to get home. Can't understand why I'm feeling this bad having been back on the oestrogen only tabs for 4 days now? However if my own cycle is still fairly stable then this would be the week before my period, so don't know if that is the problem? Too much of my own progesterone at the moment.

Since starting Femoston the only time I have felt 'normal' has been for roughly 7-10 days during the 2nd week of the oestrogen only tabs, and I felt great. But otherwise it has been a dreadful experience overall, no better than before U took HRT.

I am also feeling queasy much of the time too.

Can anyonr ake head or tail of what's happening to me? I'd be very grateful.

Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Mary G on February 16, 2016, 03:33:40 PM
GPL, really sorry to hear this and I wish I could be more helpful but my opinion is that you are very severely intolerant to synthetic progestins.  The fact that you only feel good on the oestrogen part of HRT says it all.  Also, it is worth remembering that synthetic progestins in particular (more than Utrogestan for example) have a very long half life and stay in your system for a long time, far longer than it says in the patient information leaflet. 

I can only guess that you feel terrible because synthetic progestins interfere with the brain receptors which is why I get silent migraines, you feel the way you do and other women get dreadful depression, headaches and very low mood.  I know that some women get on fine with synthetic progestins and don't have any problems at all but if you are severely intolerant, this stuff is lethal.  Synthetic progestins are nothing like the progesterone you produce yourself and for some reason, it is far more difficult for drug companies to replicate than oestrogen.  Utrogestan is better but still not the real deal. 

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Milamam on February 16, 2016, 03:52:32 PM
Sorry you are not feeling well, GRL. Could it be you have too much estrogen at this point of the cycle? Nausea was one of my symptoms of too much estrogen, also anxiety, irritability, despair. Do you feel bloated, heavy, jittery? It is really hard to tell because symptoms of low and high estrogen are so similar. It will be really helpful to you if you GP test you to see where are you in terms of hormones. Remember estrogen rises just before a period to drop again when a bleed starts. So it could be this rise that causes uneasiness.
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 16, 2016, 03:53:42 PM
Thank you MaryG.

I started a new thread, where I'm having a right whinge about this.

I think you must be right and that the synth progesterone from the 2/10 is still in my system. But for how long for, for God's sake? Either that, or I'm suffering from the withdrawal of progesterone? Either way it is evil stuff. I wonder if my dreadful headache last night was somehow connected?

It's soul destroying as there's nothing I can do but sit it out.

Looking back in my diary, I seem to have got on okay with Utrogestan, even taking 200mg for 11 days. But there were issues several days after stopping it. I only want it for the bsre minimum time possible.

And, it's yet another trip away ruined by my bloody moods.
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 16, 2016, 04:07:33 PM
Not sure Milamam?

If my own cycle is running fairly regular in the background still, then my own oestrogen would be very low this week with my period due over the weekend.

If I was going to react to too much oestrogen I would have thought it would have been during the second week of the pack, when my own oestrogen would have been at its highest. But, both months, that was when I felt great for a good week or so.

So, that would indicate that it's more oestrogen that my body needs/likes, I think? But I'm too scared to add more oestrogen or do anything new right now, as I just feel too anxious.

But I am so confused by my own body right now.
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Lizab on February 16, 2016, 05:29:15 PM
I can't speak about most of this, but during one of my worst spells of anxiety, I hit my knee on something, and the excruciating pain seemed to turn off that consuming anxiety for a few hours. I think even when our brains are forced into overdrive with these hormonal imbalances, they can still prioritize what real threats are. I have a friend with some mental issues that cuts herself, and I never understood that practice until that happened with my knee. I'm not recommending inflicting pain on yourself! I just think it's interesting how our minds and bodies work.
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 16, 2016, 07:09:01 PM
Hi Lizab

I don't think I've ever had such a splitting headache as last night, I could barely open my eyes (but it wasn't a migraine). But, bizarrely as the pain started to recede I had this lovely sense of relief because the anxiety was held at bay too.

I've never understood self harm either (I have a friend who does it too when she's very stressed) but I guess the physical pain overides the psychological pain?
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Hurdity on February 16, 2016, 07:58:16 PM
Hi GypsyRoseLee

I was away at the weekend and again out today so only just caught up with this thread and sorry to hear you are struggling still.

Re why you are still feeling bad even though you stopped the progesterone 4 days ago - this is the problem with any HRT for anyone who has suffered pms (the classic type just before the period - not the progesterone intolerance kind which lasts almost the whole of the two weeks of the second part of the cycle.

I think what happens is that we react differently to different aspects of the whole hormonal cycle.

So - pms - what is it caused by?

Oestrogen dip Some women react to the sudden drop in oestrogen just after ovulation and again the few days before the period when it is at its lowest - this causing low mood and anxiety and headaches amongst other things. HRT aims to prevent this dip by giving you a stable background dose of oestrogen. Trouble is it is sometimes not enough, but then when you try to increase the dose to gvie you enough at this point - you can end up getting too much at mid cycle ( temporarily) - which is why the CCP can be recommended - to avoid this.

Progesterone withdrawal - I call this classic pmt - which happens when the progesterone falls before the period and which triggers the bleed. Progesterone causes physiological changes in the cells and body's biological processes (to enable us to grow a baby) which are then reversed when levels fall. It is this reversal which can cause the pmt symptoms of tension, headaches, irritability, rage etc. I would suggest most women get this to some extent

Progesterone intolerance - women who suffer from this get unpleasant symptoms for the whole of the two weeks - ie presumably are over-sensitive to the physiological changes produced by the action of progesterone. We probably all experience a gradual build up of tiredness, or bloating during the third week - but only some women experience this severely to such an extent that they become depressed, fatigued, foggy headed, and suffer headaches for the whole time.

Those who are really unlucky suffer from the effects of all three!

The problem with HRT is that (especially on the combi patches) you have two weeks of full-on progestogen, followed by the few days of withdrawal which is maybe 17 -18 days in total. In the normal cycle the withdrawal phase is pre-menstrual and the whole progesterone rise and fall (including withdrawal) happens in 14 days. Do you see what I mean? - so the extra three days is stolen from the oestrogen only supposedly feel good stage - and then you have the bleed - leaving maybe 6 or 7 good days per month!

I totally agree it is absurdly one-size fits all but firstly I presume commercial considerations limit the variety of products available, and the NHS can't afford to scan everyone. It is undoubtedly true that many of us could cope with less progesterone and there is an urgent need for research into vaginal use of utrogestan at different doses and with different oestrogen doses and I wonder if anything like this is being carried out. Cynically I don't think so because there isn't any money in it :(

That was a bit of a long answer.... to say that your feelings may well be because you are still in the pre-menstrual withdrawal phase which normally happens before a period in the normal menstrual cycle, just because you have suddenly stopped the prog.

Also I used to get migraines every time I withdrew from Cyclogest (interesting link Night_Owl - but she was comparing vaginal Cyclogest with oral Utrogestan - perhaps she should also try vaginal utrogestan?). So the headache would start to come on several hours during the day after the first missed dose - and then last for 3 days - after which the tension and fatigue would disappear and I would feel OK again. I still get migraines now sometimes - but not necessarily to do with the progesterone - and they always follow the same pattern and last for 3 days and have to run their course - even when the pain has gone and it's just niggling there - I have the heavy head, fatigue, slight nausea for three days - so might this be what you are experiencing following your headache? The relief I felt after the three days was amazing - I couldn't believe how well I felt compared to how awful previously.

I hope this is in some way helpful even if it doesn't actually suggest anything you can do to feel better - and I hope you manage to enjoy the rest of your few days away :)


I've yet to take my 7 days of the dreaded U lol!  You aren't making it easy! ! Seriously though if this doesn't work for me I will be trying a homeopathic route I have used it in the past and it has worked for me.  It's a case of shedding the lining doesn't have to be progesterone that does it?? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Most definitely yes - only by taking progesterone to change the womb lining from proliferative (growing) to secretory (changing it structurally to get ready for implantation) and then withdrawing the prog - will the lining be shed properly. It can also shed randomly if it gets too thick from too much oestrogen so that it comes away - but that is abnormal bleeding and can mean you already have endometrial hyperplasia which is not what you want. You have to have progesterone to have secretory endometrium (womb lining). Homeopathy will do nothing at all. If you took it and your lining was shed it will only be due to one of the above (over-thickening due to too much oestrogen, or progesterone withdrawal)

Sorry folks if this is too long - I got carried away with rambling thoughts again!

Hurdity :)
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Lizab on February 16, 2016, 08:05:27 PM
I'm not familiar with the doses and forms that you've tried, but in thinking back on my own experience. I had anxiety and irritability growing for quite some time before my periods stopped. I used to laugh at what an irritable bitch I was with everything grating my nerves. When my period stopped coming for months at a time was when the anxiety became debilitating. I wonder now if estrogen had been dropping for awhile, but really bottomed out enough to stop my periods, and increased the anxiety. Maybe you really haven't been getting enough estrogen and that's making your progesterone sensitivity worse, as in you're barely getting by on the E and when you add in the P it counteracts that "barely enough" level of E. Maybe give it another couple weeks of E only?
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 16, 2016, 08:25:39 PM
Thank you Hurdity, a really informative reply as always. I have always suffered with classic PMS since being 12. But about 4 years ago I started to suffer with the more serious progesterone intolerance, because my PMS started to begin just after ovulation and lasting right through until about day 4 of my period.

Last month, when I finished my first pack of 1/10, I felt awful all the way through the progesterone tabs, and for 3 days after finishing them. Then I had 2 good days, followed by a further awful 3 days, before my mood really lifted and stabilised for the next 10 days.

This month, because I'd only taken 5 days of progesterone I thought I'd bounce back almost immediately? Obviously not.
Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: GypsyRoseLee on February 16, 2016, 08:34:46 PM
I've been wondering that too lizab? And is that why I have only felt 'good' during the middle of the oestrogen only tabs of Femoston, because my own oestrogen will have been adding to the oestrogen in the tabs?

I started Femoston on the same day I had my last natural period, so I know (roughly) how my own cycle is corresponding to where I am on the Femoston.

Title: Re: Had enough.
Post by: Kathleen on February 16, 2016, 09:00:03 PM
Hello ladies.

Hurdity - I agree that the one size fits all approach is unhelpful and it saddens me that for most of us our options are limited.

 I read an article written by a well known author who consulted a private doctor when her menopause struck. She said  she felt sorry for other women who were only offered the standard treatments and would probably ‘ have to
make do  with patches‘.

We are all different, if only we were treated as such!

Wishing you all well ladies.

K.