Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: GypsyRoseLee on January 29, 2016, 12:56:24 PM
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On day 8 of the oestrogen only tabs of Femoston 2/10. Had 2 great days at the start of the week, but since then have felt wired, spaced out and jittery. Really not nice.
Today, it feels worse and I feel near to tears with it. Bizarrely my libido is back, alive and kicking though. Just don't understand it? Is it that I have too much oestrogen now?
Really strung out and so fed up with being constantly battered by all these conflicting feelings and this internal knot of anxiety.
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And my boobs are still swollen and painful to the touch, too. I'm starting to spill out of my bras.
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GRL...I've said it before and I know mine is not the popular opinion but for me estrogen does in fact cause me to be jittery, anxious, weepy and prone to panic attacks and PVC's. Ovulation ( when estrogen spikes) is my worst time of the month. Adding even a 25ug estrogen patch caused me to have unbearable jitteriness during ovulation, internal vibrations, buzzing sensations in my face and behind my eyes etc.
For this reason I have determined to not use any estrogen ( or progesterone either) until I start regularly skipping periods. The estrogen highs are still too high and cause a host of unpleasant physical and psychological symptoms, the estrogen lows suck also. I figure as long as I continue to have most of my periods my body is continuing to produce some estrogen. When my overall estrogen gets low enough to be skipping regularly ( late perimenopause) I will start supplementing in the hopes that the highs don't get too high anymore.
For me at least ( and maybe you too). Too much estrogen is as bad ( or dare I say worse) than not enough. :(
Tara
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I could never tolerate oestrogen either, not even after my hysterectomy (kept my ovaries). I can only presume that I was making enough for my body's needs and other factors were also at play (long unnecessary story).
I never have taken HRT and have coped and managed so I don't think I have ever been completely oestrogen deficient although it must fluctuate because I get some flushes and sweats. Not all women need oestrogen replacement all the time and sometimes it can make matters worse in my own experience.
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babyjane - none of us are completely oestrogen deficient even at post-menopause - we still have some but it is at a much lower level. If you kept your ovaries after hysterectomy then yes you would still have been ovulating and hormones cycling until you reached menopause at which levels bottom out after a couple of years following - although I did read the whole process actually takes longer than two years after this (ie last period) to completely stabilise! Anyone who is overweight has more because estrone is stored in fat cells and converted to estradiol. Once you are oestrogen deficient (as in - well post-menopause), and your hormone levels stabilise then added oestrogen should make you feel better overall moodwise anyway - but the issue with tolerance is often to do with the preparation chosen rather than oestrogen per se. We don't need it as such in that we can survive without it - but it is a question of various health issues at menopause and in the future and quality of life/ability to work - which affect us to a greater or lesser degree dependent on a combination of our genetics and lifestyle.
GypsyRoseLee - it is so difficult to tell what's what when you are peri-menopausal because of your own hormones coming into play. If you normally felt great during the mid point of your cycle then that's normal - but actual oestrogen levels are relatively meaningless. What happens if these are artificially increased beyond your normal peak - I've no idea. There is a known phenomenon called Tachyphylaxis which I expect you know about - where supra-physiological levels (higher than occur normally) can lead to re-appearance of the very symptoms the oestrogen is meant to treat. Studd refers to this on his website as a possibility with implants. Whether it can also occur if you take oestrogen and then have your own ovulation spike of oestrogen - I don't know! Not sure if anyone does either..... sorry that's not much help is it?!!!!
dogdoc - I can see your reasoning. The STRAW model of the stages of reproductive ageing and the NICE Guidelines define peri-menopause as starting when cycles first begin to lengthen because it seems that although hormones begin to go awry before then, FSH levels are relatively low and oestrogen levels often normal - so during this late reproductive stage fluctuations are more extreme - extreme highs and extreme lows - leading to all the unpleasant symptoms - but not necessarily of prolonged oestrogen deficiency. One member ( Briony I think?) reported some gynaes talking of extreme pms which occurs at this point - but which then merge into peri-menopause. If this is the case then adding more oestrogen at a very high point may well cause adverse symptoms - but equally adverse symptoms can occur from the extreme dip at the end of the cycle - ie anxiety low mood etc. It is such a difficult time to treat and it seems there is not one magic solution at this stage - although from what women are saying this is the stage at which the CCP can control the cycle. This is only possible though for women who can tolerate large doses of synthetic progestogens - otherwise it is problematic.
Oh dear I'm not sure if I've said anything useful at all here - but all your comments made me think anyway....
Hurdity x
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Thanks for replying. I am very confused because I used to get 2 week stints of feeling virtually normal when on 50mg patches, last summer. Same when I went onto the BCP which is much higher oestrogen than Femoston.
But since coming off the BCP and firstly going back to just 50mg patches for a month, than swapping to Femoston I just seem to get only 2-3 good days occasionally. Mainly it's just grim drudgery where I'm forcing myself through the day, day after day.
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I know all that Hurdity, I feel like I have been to a seminar ;D I have tried HRT in the past, didn't get on with HRT so don't use HRT - simples, for me. I am fortunate in that I don't need it to function, I guess I am one of the lucky ones. :)
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Hi GLR
Sorry to hear you're struggling :( as you know I'm using the ostrogel under Proff Studd and id dropped to 2 pumps thinking 3 sent me into a wired, anxious, loony insomniac he disagreed when we met and wanted me back on 3 pumps but yet again I ran into the same issues and so ive been in touch with him and he's told me to go back to 2 and use the Utro for 10 days rather than 7. It seems I'd swung too high on the ostrogen (for me) so he's reduced it and opposed it more with the utro for a few days longer. This will be interestingas im prog intolerant like you but I do find its ok used vaginally. So in answer to your question yes I think tipping the ostrogen too high does cause an issue and I think you're really similar to me and very sensitive. The beauty of the gel is you can tweak it and quickly see the result (well I do) and now back on 2 within a few days I feel good again...hang in there for Dr Annie :) xx
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I know all that Hurdity, I feel like I have been to a seminar ;D
..... ??? not sure what's funny or why you even said that?
Hurdity
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because you sometimes read like a lecturer addressing students. I wouldn't normally comment but you addressed the comments to me directly, so I did
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Niamh, I'm glad you are feeling better now that you have adjusted your dose. The problem is, everyone is different and we all react differently to all types of medication so flexibility is the name of the game here. It takes time to get the dose right but once you do, it's worth sticking with it. Don't be surprised if you have to tweak a bit more at some point but the beauty of gel, and to some extent the Utrogestan, is you can easily adjust the dose.
GPL, I'm sure you will get there in the end. Once you have seen Dr. Evans, I'm sure you will feel better and you can be confident that she will prescribe the right medication for you. I bet that appointment can't come soon enough!
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Well, I for one, am incredibly grateful for Hurdity's insight and expertise. Her posts are extremely informative.
When you're dealing with, often, very complicated interactions between people's differing physiology and a multitude of HRT regimes surely the most effective way to put across the information is in Hurdity's very clear, succint style?
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Hi Niamh
Did you find you went too 'high' after several days on 3 pumps? I think when you're fluctuating as much as we probably are, and so sensitive to the fluctuations, then you almost need to adjust the oestrogen on a daily basis.
Or, alternatively up to 4 pumps, and suffer until the uber oestrogen has shut down your own ovulation so you don't get those fluctuations.
Today, again, I feel really quite well and with none of that knotted anxiety/agitation. It's lovely. But I have no idea how I will feel tomorrow.
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Thanks MaryG. It's 4 weeks and 5 days, and counting...til I see her :)
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My apologies, my attempt at humour isn't always to everyone's taste. I don't know what I was doing in an HRT thread anyway, I will mind my own business in future.
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Hi GLR
Yes after about 3 days it all kicked in...Prof Studd didn't seem bothered about trying to switch off my own fluctuations when I saw him as ive not had a normal period only the utro bleed , I also wonder if it's a bit of an impossible feat at the moment! I think it's about trying to find the best dose you feel comfy on to complement your own hormones and for me it feels like 2 as perhaps this doesn't take things too low or too high?!? All trial and error but I had a pretty normal month on 2 with only a few bad nights but he wanted me to go back to 3 ironically now he's put me back on 2 as yet again 3 seemed to tip me over the edge! Hope that helps x
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The more I read and experiment, the more I think it is the fluctuations which cause me problems, rather than low estrogen per se. I think my doc read too much in to me having a one off very low estrogen reading and for a while got too side tracked with upping my levels rather than keeping them steady. I would love to know why they can't make a CCP which contains bio identical estrogen and a kinder progesterone, such as the one in Femoston. Qlaira is the nearest, but being a 4 - phase pill, you still get slight fluctuations.
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Hurdity I agree 100%. I think hormonal chaos begins LONG before what mainstream medical would call 'perimenopause' when cycles start to lengthen and skip. There is no such thing as a 'normal' perimenopause but I think there's a classic sequence. There is a website in canada (cemcor) run by an endocrinologist who explains it quite well but I strongly disagree with her that super doses of progesterone are the answer to everything.
Stage 1
Essentially I think very early fluctuations cause increasing spikes and troughs of estrogen. You're not estrogen deficient per se but your highs are higher and lows are lower. For me this caused cyclically painful breasts, worsening pms, irritability and occasional very mildly irregular cycles. I think this is the true beginning of peri but the experts disagree :(
Stage 2
Next estrogen goes on a rampage. Your highs are extreme. Your lows are extreme. You might not ovulate on occasion. Periods start to go out of whack ( usually much heavier and closer together). This too is too much estrogen and sometimes low progestetone.
For me this was headaches, chills, nausea, weeping ( so much weeping) panic attacks, jitters, shakes, vibrations, tingling, hair loss, chills, crashing fatigue. Women at this stage feel like they're going INSANE,. I seriously thought I was going to need hospitalization. GRL I think this is where you are. Again mainstream medicine would not even qualify this as peri menopausal. But estrogen is sometimes way high, sometimes low. So it would depend on what day and what month they checked your estrogen.
Stage3
Next is when estrogen actually starts declining. The crazy gets better. Periods get lighter. You might skip one or two. This is probably the best time to start hrt. I'm here now and let me tell you the last few months have been a virtual DREAM compared to the previous two years. Getting hot flashes, joint pain, insomnia, pvcs, dry everywhere. Hard to believe I consider that better but I really really do. Just skipped first period. This is the stage where medicine would call it 'perimenopause''. So the early stages which for many of us are the true hell are ignored and not treated.
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Hello all
Hope you don't mind me popping in (i'm a newbie). I'm sat here with mild period pain after having a Marina coil.
I would say i am now at stage 3 as been at stage 2 for for about a year or more. I start taking Estrogen tomorrow. So hoping it will help me asap.
BB
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Good luck Becky Boo. I'm considering estrogen again after a year off it. I've only missed one period though and the hot flashes are still tolerable. I wanted to be sure i was truly in the 'sustained low estrogen' phase before I went back on it, as adding estrogen to my already present estrogen was very bad at times ( at other times it was just great which gives me hope that when my estrogen is consistently low and not just swinging up and down like a jumping jack I truly will feel overall better).
I'm just grateful I appear to have emerged from my version of 'stage 2'....unless my body decides to throw me back there. Always a possibility I fear.
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I have no idea what my estrogen is doing other than my fsh level was 35. I'm only 42 so need to go on hrt as i'm to young to be without estrogen.
I'll let you know how i get on with my tablets. Something needs to help as my life is grinding to a halt which is not good when I have a 5 year old daughter that is full of beans.
BB
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I think you're right dogdoc. But the only thing is that for a year before I sent on HRT my periods had become very light, more like heavy brown spotting than anything. Plus my boobs shrunk and no longer seemed to react to my menstrual cycle anymore (previously I used to get very painful, swollen breasts every month).
So that would indicate low oestrogen wouldn't it? Yet my moods were so bad, I thought I was going crazy. Even since being on HRT my bleeds have been very might and barely lasting 3 days, even when on medium doses.
So I still confused as to how far into peri I am??? Out of my close female relatives they have all been post menopausal by their mid 40s. I am 46 this year so I have lasted the longest.
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GRL - I think you and I are in a similar position in that the hrt we're both taking at present is the highest you can get without actually suppressing ovulation. With such strong systems ourselves (ie still in Stage 2?) at times, we're having too much estrogen - but it drops again before we can get used to it. In theory, my 100 mcg patches should actually be controlling my own hormones, but I think I'm one of the small percent for who need more than 100 mcg patches.
I'm really regretting coming off the pill. I'm now in two minds whether to go for a higher dose of patch/gel (greater effort but safer) or go for a pill like Yaz which is more powerful than Qlaira, yet not as strong as Marvelon.
Over the past few months, I have learned how to recognise the difference (for me) between low and high estrogen - although I agree with what others have said regarding actually figures being irrelevant:
- Low = headache, sudden fatigue, brain fog, chills, dizziness, digestive issues and ''adrenaline nausea" (if that makes sense?!!), low mood
- High/fluctuating = jittery, anxious, tingling/pins and needles, true nausea, joint pains.
What I'd give just to be stuck in the middle!
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I am following this.
My moods were tolerable when my periods were close together/nonstop for two years. I was a little nasty and quick to anger, but I felt ok. When my periods became lighter and several months apart, my boobs shrank, my mood sank and I went insane.
I'm assuming low estrogen has to be my problem. My mom was done at 45 at the latest (not sure exactly as she had an iud w/hormones), and I'm 39.
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Eeek. Briony, I have all of those except headache every day. I couldn't possibly be swinging that wildly hour to hour or minute to minute, could I?
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Yup I think it can vary that widely day to day, hour to hour. It's not just estrogen either, but progesterone and everything else as well. On average our estrogen is declining throughout perimenopause but with big spikes and lows.
Big spikes can cause one set of symptoms, huge drops another, and overall the level of estrogen/progesterone and likely testosterone are lower than previous years...sometimes we have the estrogen of our 20's ( or higher) then next we have the estrogen level of a menopausal woman.
We don't get near that low steady level of estrogen though until we're at or very near menopause ( I've read within 1-2 years of final menstrual period). So if you're like me and high spikes cause weeping and jitters, and panic and chills, and estrogen lows cause irritability, food cravings, hot flashes and joint pain ( among others) there's really no 'happy medium' until you reach menopause, unless you're willing to override your cycle completely with very high dose HRT or birth control. Neither of which I've been brave enough to try as yet.
http://0101.nccdn.net/1_5/3a4/1b4/12e/egg-lessFig1.jpg
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I never got on well with BCP in my 20s, tried many. The worst for me had multiple phases in a month, and I spotted all the time. The best actually had desogestrel for the progestin, which I've seen a few people on the forum mention for their progestin.
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How are you feeling now GRL? I'm also on Femoston 2/10 after trying patches then Femstons 1/10 which seemed to have no effect on my physical and mental symptoms. i've been happy on 2/10 for 2 years though now having some other problems.
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I never got on well with BCP in my 20s, tried many. The worst for me had multiple phases in a month, and I spotted all the time. The best actually had desogestrel for the progestin, which I've seen a few people on the forum mention for their progestin.
Qlaira worked well for me as it's such a low dose. Spotting was main problem. Looking back, there are far worse symptoms to deal with, so maybe I was expecting too much?
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Eeek. Briony, I have all of those except headache every day. I couldn't possibly be swinging that wildly hour to hour or minute to minute, could I?
But they are very different sets of symptoms. It has taken me a few years to notice the difference. For example, high estrogen nausea is very different to low estrogen. Anxiety/jitters/wired (high) is different to low, flat mood (low). Does that make sense?
This is quite an interesting read, especially for younger members considering the pill. Qlaira is not featured as it's too new, but it would be on the right and low down as it has low estrogen (for a pill) and is not v androgenic .
http://www.avongpeducation.co.uk/handouts/2012/youngpersons/The%20pill%20ladder.pdf
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Hi Anna
I only enjoyed about 10 decent days on 1/10, in the middle of the pack. Then as soon as I started the combi tabs my mood really dipped, and anxiety was back. This lasted until a few days into the 2/10 pack. Then I had a couple of really good days, followed by a few rubbish days (anxiety, low mood). But since last Saturday I have felt great again. I start the combi tabs this week so keeping fingers crossed that the higher oestrogen will lessen my reaction to the progesterone? God I hope so.