Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: HappenstanceMarmite on October 22, 2015, 11:51:07 PM
-
Anyone else see Autopsy
want to say starring about the tragic sudden death of Joan Rivers? Despite the sadness surrounding what could possibly have been an avoidable death, a positive piece of information was inadvertently revealed. In the Pathologist's list of substances found in the body was an HRT drug. Sorry I forgot to write it down, but it began with "Prem".
Thing is, this marvellous woman was EIGHTY ONE YEARS OLD!!!
81 and still on HRT ☺️ they'll have to wrench my meds from my clawed dead hand
-
LOL!!! Very popular drug in US. I have tried a lot of different types of HRT and all have a drawback of some kind for me, some more tolerable than others.
So far I have steered clear of this drug even though my 30ish Gyn has tried to push it on me multiple times. Remember that she was 15ish when that study came out, but the medical training here is still teaching and advocating its use. So there must be some reason it is still in use....maybe it works well and has less side effects since it is not a "human" estrogen? Many of my older family members are on it or have been on it. No one seems to understand why I mess around with the patches, progesterone, etc. because they all love it.
It will be the last thing I try if I can't get settled on anything else.
-
My major issues with menopause are mainly bladder related and vaginal atrophy, but also insomnia. Since I have a uterus, I have to take progesterone to protect the uterine lining if I take systemic estrogen to treat this. Local estrogen does not work for me to solve the problem.
I am allergic to the cream forms of local vaginal estrogen (its the fillers that are a problem for me). Vagifem is not enough to treat the problem. Estring is uncomfortable and seems to cause thrush. Estriol is not strong enough either. Without any systemic HRT I have constant vulvar and urethral irritation and cannot sleep. Therefore, I must take systemic HRT to sleep well and overcome the estrogen deficient changes in my genito-urinary tract, and thus also have to take progesterone.
Progesterone makes me have a burning bladder and urethra. When I need to go to the bathroom, all I feel is more burning rather than the usual urge feeling, it is like a constant UTI. It also makes me feel like I have a lot of bugs biting me when I get hot and sweat (I live in a hot, humid climate) or take a hot shower. I have tried it in many forms with the same issue, so this spring I changed to synthetic progesterone.
The synthetic progesterone called norethisterone makes my hair fall out. It also makes my sinuses run constantly and makes me gag. The bug biting issue does not occur and the bladder irritation is barely noticeable except when I don't drink enough fluids. I recently lowered the combination patch to see if that would help and it did, but now the low estrogen changes are coming back. Every type I have tried also makes me gain at least 5 lbs but I can live with that. I have tried several times going without and within 4 mo it is just a miserable life with raw feelings constantly down below. Nothing helps but systemic estrogen.
-
andius
The type of HRT that starts with Pre (Premarin) is old fashioned and less safe. It's made from mares' urine (hence the name,)
It is thought to have more side effects. It's prescribed more in the US. It's very cheap and some GPs reach for it because it's the only one they have heard of and don't know what else to offer.
Nearly all HRT now is body-identical and is made with oestrogen that is the same as we'd have naturally (molecular structure.)
If you react badly to synthetic progestogens you could try micronised progesterone - trade name Utrogestan- and even talk to your dr about having long cycle HRT which would reduce how often you took progesterone. If you are using a combined patch are you adding in norethisterone too- or did you mean the patch contains norethisterone?
-
andius
The type of HRT that starts with Pre (Premarin) is old fashioned and less safe.
Not sure I would agree with the second half of that statement. It is still around presumably because it still works. Drug companies are quick to replace something that is not popular. In my case, it was the best of all HRTs that I tried - dealt with the symptoms and caused little if any side effects.
Bramble
-
Or maybe it's still around because it's cheap to produce and sell ? Surely it is logical to replace our own oestrogen with some that is the same rather than what a horse has?
Might be worth reading this- just the RESULTS AND CONCLUSION which summarises the results of CEE and synthetic progestogens versus body-identical.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19179815
-
Just because it is cheap does not mean it is less efficient.
Bramble
-
Okay, well ignore that and read the link and that will show you why I'd not touch it.
-
What side effects have you had from your hrt's? I know many of you are on it but there don't seem to be many who haven't had to try several and still aren't completely happy and free if problems.just wondering what sort if side effects people are living with that makes it worthwhile.
Hi Teresa
Not sure how old you are or your symptoms, but in answer to your question:
I tried patches with separate Utrogestan, chosen because it was bio identical. Had dull head ache first few weeks but then slowly began to feel better than I had done in a while. My only issue was that when I stopped the 12 days of Utrogestan, I had a dip.
Switched to a low dose bio identical contraceptive. Had severe itching for 48 hours at the start, but that soon went. Felt much better after a few months and noticed my hair was no longer dropping out. I was thrilled! Taking it didnt make me 100% 'old me' - for example, I still get nausea and sudden fatigue/the chills sometimes - but nothing like I did previously. I think starting it took the fear/anxiety away as well. The only longer term side effect is spotting, especially mid month.
What I have tried isnt perfect, but it's a massive improvement on what I had tried previously (the alternative, more natural route). Must add to that, though, that our hormones are unique and what works and doesnt work for me may well be totally different for you.
-
response to THE DUCHESS:
The combination patch I am taking has norethisterone in it.....not adding anything, but would love to add more estrogen!!!! :P Unfortunately, the only other dose available comes with same estrogen and higher norethisterone, for breakthrough bleeding, which I have never had in 6 years on any type of HRT.
When I mentioned progesterone in post above, I am meaning natural micronized progesterone as in utro (UK) or promethium (US) or compounded oral products of natural micronized progesterone. The only synthetic progesterone I have tried is norethisterone in the combipatch but also tried a couple of years ago in the oral combo pills (it was either .5mg or 1mg in the oral ones I tried). When taking these orally, it made my muscles heart all over, bloating, hair fell out and I gained more weight than on the patch types. I also felt somewhat depressed. I could never tolerate BCP's in my earlier years.
andius
-
Duchess,
you seem to think that other types of HRT are so superior....but.. we are no more similar to yam or soya, then we are to horses, and bio identical is a misnomer, they are not human estrogens at all but chemically similar and synthesized in the lab.
It's certainly something to consider...,don't you think.
Honeybun
X
-
🏇🍈🍨
-
It's not what I think that is of any consequence, but what this paper - which I linked to previously- has to say on it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19179815
Body-identical ( rather than mis-named bio) means exactly what you say HB- the same as our own, made in a lab, whereas mares' urine is not the same as humans.
I've considered it rather a lot , as has my consultant who prescribes it as a preference.
-
And perhaps got it a bit wrong.
It's synthesised in a lab......not exactly natural.
If urine was collected from pregnant or fertile women and then synthesized in the lab then they might be able to make that claim.
Honeybun
X
-
Sorry- who exactly has got what wrong?
The scientists who researched and wrote the paper?
Or consultants who are far more qualified than you or me?
I'm not sure I understand your point.
-
There seems to be a very unpleasant slant to these posts. I'm looking For peoples personal experiences, as a way of reassurance that there may be light at the end of the tunnel. It can be scary, particularly if you have odd symptoms. I can look links up myself but I'm not qualified to say whether they are right or wrong or Champion one or the other. I go to hospital and take consultants advice then I come on here to ask if anyone has felt similar or tried the same things. We look for reassurance when a side effect is niggling or we don't feel better the next day. I have got a lot from peoples experiences (especially the odd symptoms - you know who you are) or,the different routes they have tried. aggression is so over rated.
-
The paper which is linked to, is a paper whose findings are not based on clinical research but on other published papers, details of which were not given. So we have no idea whether this is based at all on clinical research and/or how big a study group was used etc etc. In this day of electronic means it is all too easy to find 'studies' which back up whatever point of discussion you are interested in and we should all be aware that not everything in print is gospel.
All I can say again is that Premique worked for me when all other HRTs didn't and I was just sharing my experience, which is what MM is all about!
And yes, Joan Rivers did look fab but she did have a LOT of cosmetic surgery!
Bramble
-
So what *did* Joan Rivers die from other than lack of breath ?
-
She was having minor throat surgery and it went wrong. I think her daughter is suing for wrongful death.
Honeybun
X
-
Was there an underlying cause? All ops pose a risk ………..
-
She was potentially given too much sedative started to have breathing difficulty and brain was starved of oxygen.
-
Speaking as someone who has used Premarin, I do get a bit annoyed by the blanket scare tactics that are used about the medication. We get enough scare/guilt tactics put on us from outside sources without it also coming from within MM. It just seems that even women who are supposed to be supportive of each other, will still try to undermine or scare/guillt other women into not using something that might actually be working better than any other type of HRT. For the right women, Premarin actually presents very little risk.
When it comes to HRT, it ALWAYS comes down to "use what works for you". I posted this recently on another thread, but I had a discussion with my pharmacist recently and she confirmed that she dispenses Premarin far more than estradiol. Here in Australia Premarin is actually more expensive than estradiol, because Premarin isn't covered by PBS, so it's not because it's "cheap". Women want to use what works for them, and I'm sure if the estradiol did the same job they would be using it - and saving money.
For me, over my years of HRT use, I've also had difficulties with another medication to take into account, so I have always tinkered with and chopped and changed the type of HRT I used. Sooner or later whatever I was using would cause me to think there was a problem with the absorption of it, including estradiol patches.
The only one that ever seemed to be really reliable long-term was Premarin. I have recently been back on it for about a month (after a very failed experiment with conti patches), but I'm in the process now of switching back to estradiol tablets, where I hope to stay if I can, but if I can't I will continue to take Premarin.
It does bother me a little that there always seems to be so much emphasis on MM being put on using Utrogestan and estradiol (and patches being the preference). There seems to be this subtle inference being made that if you use anything else you're using something inferior, or dangerous, but for some, using those products may not be applicable or desirable.
We always say we are here to support each other, but there is often that subtle undermining going on that indicates to me that some like to "tell" women what they should use (by pointing out supposed risks etc), rather than "telling" them to use whatever works for them.
-
Surprisingly it can be the coating or filler which ladies find upset them ……… more often than is probably realised ::)
'Here in Australia' - could you send some :sunny: please ;)
It would be interesting to see the PM report of Joan Rivers - I do wonder if, having undergone surgical intervention i.e. probably a face lift etc., there may well have been internal throat 'scarring' which altered the route of the anaesthesia tubing. So sad for a very upbeat lady.
-
She did sport the wind tunnel look more and more as time went by.
Poor thing, it was very badly botched.
Honeybun
X
-
She was a breath of fresh air at times. Such a 'way' to go. We moan about the NHS but usually 'they' get it 'right'.
I wonder how the Royals manage/d menopause …….. or anxiety, or having to face something they don't want to eat :-\ :-X
-
They move food around a plate....the Queen has it all planned and her chefs go before her....and let's face it, if you had that sort of money and access to medical help 24/7 then we would all probably be managing fine too ::)
Oh and a good dollop of British backbone ;D
Honeybun
X
-
Apparently when the Queen picks up her handbag it's time to leave ;)
-
My mother was much the same.
Now she just announces she wants to go home......subtle she ain't ;D
Honeybun
X
-
At her age Honeybun ::)
-
We have been saying that for years ::)
Honeybun
X
-
Well this went down a road I hadn't intended!
I was referencing the fact that Joan was still taking HRT into her eighties, that was what I meant by "good enough for Joan Rivers", not the fact she was on a "Prem" version.
Should have made that clearer.
-
That's OK we often does a meander ::)
Such a shock for all concerned. Not the end that family or Joan would have expected!