Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: skkb on October 20, 2015, 03:52:28 PM
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All over the papers yesterday that after new "research " the dangers of HRT have been overplayed and HRT is safe for women to take long term, for life if they want, alleluia, wish they'd said that 12 months ago and I hadn't suffered for best part of a year after coming off it, particularly as I felt GREAT when on it. Should I return to my lovely HRT or will more "research " prove this research to be flawed as well later on ......grrrrr
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Return to your GP! Also have a read of the other threads here about yesterday's Press release ;)
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Is it advanced publicity? It's different to what is expected from NICE in November ;)
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That's how I read it. Don't care, won't care - GPs need to justify themselves more clearly now if they don't want to spend the budget on HRT ;)
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CLKD, agreed. Nothing is 100% safe, how safe is contraceptive pill or any other medication? One thing is for sure, the risk is pretty minimal for most people unless they have a family history of various illnesses and there is no evidence to suggest that the vast majority of women cannot benefit from this life changing medication.
If you have decided not to take HRT and are happy with that decision then you don't have a problem but if you want/need it then you should be free to take it.
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Yep. Informed choices? but GPs have to begin supporting ladies and be more transparent about why they prefer not to prescribe HRT! including Surgery budgets ;)
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The study they are reporting on involved 80 women.
A bit of a farce to be honest......we have more women on here.
We really need to see what the NICE report says and then we maybe have something to beat our doctors over the head with. They can't ignore that.
But until then.....personally I think it's been a quiet news day. ::)
Honeybun
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We need Drugs Companies to be honest too ! They need to put the whole Report out there, not cherry pick to show the Press etc. the bits that push for their drug to be accepted onto the Trials and leave out those iffy areas which didn't work!
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We just need clarify!
1 World Menopause Day was Sunday 19th October
2 The NICE Guidelines come out soon - mid November. The full report cites the latest research but the summary report (which most people will read) provides prescribing and management guidelnines for medical practitioners.
3 Yesterday the papers reported on some new research which happened to be published.
Three different things. Emma reported on all of these on the thread entitled "World Menopause Day and NICE" here:
http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,29497.0.html
There was some discussion.
Several other member reported on the news as they reported is on threads here:
http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,29505.0.html
and here:
http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,29498.0.html
:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: (first time I think I've used that icon)
I really don't know why some members - Prajna, Grangravy and honeybun are knocking the study or trying to finding fault with it - or are suspicious of it.
I think everyone is agreed that news articles (especially in certain newspapers) are often sensational, misleading, and focus on headline grabbing sometimes at the expense of the accuracy of what is being reported. No-one disputes that.
We also all agree we would like to see the research summary. We don't know if the authors of the study are claiming that HRT is safe (ie using those words or similar) in their press release of the results of their study.
I would suggest that no scientist would ever make those conclusions on a subject so significant as this, on the basis of one study. As I said yesterday - reporting what was said on this site and by Dr Currie, it adds to the recent body of evidence which comes to the same conclusion - as does the British Menopause Society http://www.thebms.org.uk/newsitem.php?newsid=87 which also recognises the small sample size etc etc
How can a study involving 136 women ( of whom 80 took HRT) be a farce? From what little we know a large group of women (80) were scanned every year for 10 years. At its best and if resources were available, other physiological and structural information will have been measured and recorded over the years, probably yielding an enormous amount of useful information about detailed changes that take place in a woman's body whilas she ages while taking HRT. The safety conclusion may well be one of many - but the most headline grabbing. The scans alone surely will yield incredibly useful data and will hopefully provided new medical insights.
How can this (what I imagine to be a detailed study) be a "bit of a farce", "suspicious" and a "limp sparkler"?? I am pleased that all of these studies are being carried out and reported so that we can find the original and read about them. It's very unfortunate that the press are sensationalist - but then they always have been.
Science (and through science, medicine) progresses through the accumulation of evidence produced in studies that test theories/hypotheses. Results are either consistent with or refute the hypotheses which then might have to be changed as a result.
The Women's Health Initiative and Million Women Study - initially did just that - and came to the conclusion that HRT was inherently unsafe - notably in older women and with long term use. These studies were later found to be flawed and the data re-evaluated and the conclusions (even from these flawed studies), modified. Later studies with better experimental design have come to different conclusions and the body of evidence is now accumulating which means these ideas need to be changed.
Most importantly many recent studies and trials are more rigorous, and specifiy for example which type of HRT is used. I hope the result of this new study does likewise - because different results have been obtained from different HRT types.
Also it is all about risk - especially absolute risk (eg 1 in 100), rather than relative risk (twice as risky - which would eg be 2 in a 100), which needs to be looked at compared to other risky things we do medication, alcohol, smoking, being fat, not exercising etc
The NICE Guidelines will also be reported widely and hopefully with much trumpeting!
Hurdity x
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;) ………. quality of Life is still my mantra ……… regardless.
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I'm not knocking it but it was not much of a survey as it only included 80 women.
The NICE report will be inclusive and our GPs will hopefully take heed but to expect them to take notice of such a small survey.....well I don't think so.
As we all know, you can bend the results every which way if you want.
Honeybun
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GPs rarely get time to read 'current' reports ::) :-\ ……. hopefully the NICE Report will be 'inclusive' - of what though? Will it recommend HRT/not? Is it The Bible for medics.?
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Re NICE the draft report (full report) and summary have been available for some time. What's being published in mid November is the full report and separate summary ( prescribing guidelines etc) after the consultation process.
There is plenty of information about it here which has been available since June and linked to on here. The full report gives published sources to justify every recommendation they make - but probably too late for the latest study. It is unlikely that the final recommendations will differ greatly from the draft.
Here is the draft guideline ( summary)
https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/GID-CGWAVE0639/documents/menopause-draft-guideline-nice2
Here is the detailed report:
https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/GID-CGWAVE0639/documents/menopause-full-guideline2
Here are all the documents listed:
https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/indevelopment/gid-cgwave0639/documents
Here is the process and timeline:
https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/indevelopment/gid-CGWAVE0639?
All reputable published scientific studies are peer reviewed before publication in reputable journals so results and data should be transparent. I agree that interpretation can be misleading even if correct eg in an experiment to test the effectiveness of something (X) you might find 80/100 showed it was effective and 20/100 ineffective. This could be reported either way by the press to give a headline either way X was effective or 1/5 found X to be ineffective.
Yes I agree CLKD.... quality of life!!!!!! :)
BTW this explains what NICE does and the role of guidelines:
https://www.nice.org.uk/about/what-we-do
Hurdity x
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Good post Hurdity. I would add that HRT seems to come in for far heavier criticism than other medications and people seem to want greater guarantees and certainties for HRT than they do for other drugs. People in general seem to happily leap on the downside of HRT while overlooking the downside of other medication. Having read all the newspaper links, I noticed lots of negative comments on the Telegraph article with people being suspicious of Big Pharma and generally very cynical about HRT. Are they that cynical about all studies and medications? For some reason, the whole subject seems to be very emotive.
This may sound rather unconventional but I think that there is a fault in the female make up and it would be better if we lost just enough hormones to stop us being reproductive but enough to keep all the vital organs healthy and not have the terrible symptoms that come (for some) with the menopause. Men produce sex hormones all their lives and it would be better if we produced slightly more all our lives. HRT is the only way to combat this fault.
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Good post Hurdity. I would add that HRT seems to come in for far heavier criticism than other medications and people seem to want greater guarantees and certainties for HRT than they do for other drugs. People in general seem to happily leap on the downside of HRT while overlooking the downside of other medication. Having read all the newspaper links, I noticed lots of negative comments on the Telegraph article with people being suspicious of Big Pharma and generally very cynical about HRT. Are they that cynical about all studies and medications? For some reason, the whole subject seems to be very emotive.
This may play into my feminist "conspiracy theory" psyche, but I think HRT gets so much negative attention sometimes because how dare women have a medication that makes them feel good. It's fine for men to have Viagra. Men are entitled to continue to perform long past their use by dates. That's their right, but women should be reminded every single day of their post-meno lives that they are no long useful, attractive or vital.
Sadly even women can be our own worst enemies sometimes because they feel they need to be put upon stoic martyrs who should "suffer in silence" - or even worse they think that women who complain about menopause are exaggerating. Society, and especially the media, knows full-well that it takes very little to make women feel guilty or scared about something, and we play right into their hands sometimes.
You didn't breastfeed your baby? - feel guilty.
You had some "me-time" instead of being at the beck and call of your family - feel guilty.
You didn't clean the house this week - feel guilty.
You took HRT and felt better - feel guilty.
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Totally agree with Hurdity and Dana.
For me, I would always choose the hypothetical rollercoaster of 'Is it/isn't safe' over my very real rollercoaster of awful anxiety/low mood.
There are women for whom menopause is just a tedious inconvenience. But there are also women for whom menopause is a devastating, life changing event. For these women (like me) then hormonal help is a God send.
Millions of women merrily pop the BCP every day for decades. Far stronger hormones in that than HRT and no 'need' to use BCP as plenty of other good 'natural' contraception around. But no one bats an eyelid at so many women taking the BCP.
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BCP had it's commentators though - again, how dare a woman take control of the number of babies she has and to use a drug which might be dangerous to health. Then along came Thalodomide (sp) :-X
I'm watching out for That Bus today ;)
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I think it is a 'Labours of Eve' thing. Women were meant to suffer. I used to think it was a religious thing but it seems to be a thing that is bound deep in our society. We have thrown away the religious aspect, but we still have people who strongly think that you should not 'go against nature'
It used to be pain relief in childbirth, now it is 'too posh to push'. Contraception was wrong, the pill was wrong. The pill caused cancer when I first took it and you needed full internals - now it is proven to reduce cancer of the womb and ovaries. Anything that releases women from slavery to their biology is 'wrong'. :-\ Sometimes it is an uphill task to do what is right for yourself.
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:thankyou: Hurdity. Like studies throughout history, only time will tell!
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Thank you Dana and Hurdity for those posts. Every time I read threads like this, that little nagging doubt deep in my mind is awakened and I start to feel anxious.
- I know there are risks, and like Prajna says, still believe that there's much more we're not aware of (see my recent post regarding costs of the BCP and why women are given the cheap one with the worst side effects) ... but what alternative do I, and the many others in our situation, have? Lose our careers/partners/sanity/quality of life? Let our bone density levels continue to drop? ??? I desperately want to be a mum (even if it's not a biological one) but before I took the pill/HRT, I wasn't able to be considered due to lack of symptom control. At least the pill has, ironically, given my partner and I the chance of becoming parents. It's a risk I am willing to take.
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Quality, quality, quality ;)
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Well after being taken off it because of my heart disease and suffering for the last 18 months I am going back to my GP on Friday. I can't stand it any more the quality of my life is being affected and my son is getting married next year and I do not want to be dripping wet for the whole day :( I wish they could prescribe bio identical HRT though!
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I think that bio identical is available :-\ ……… have a look at Hurdity's previous posts!
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Blimey - call me naive, but I had no idea people take HRT without even having symptoms. :o
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I suspect that some of the answers are just flippant although the one about excess being washed away is worrying.
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Yes Bio identical available on NHS . Study was funded by Pfizer so no doubt they took women off the study who may have skewed the results as they did with statins so only healthiest were used but then thats 80 healthy women who were ok at end of study . Alcohol is probably far more dangerous for women and on "Trust me I am a doctor" they said 1 large glass per day raises your chance of breast cancer by 10 percent, yes you read that right, 2 large glasses 20 % and so on . That came from a Cancer specialist. So ladies that really puts HRT in perspective.
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Does anyone know the names of bio identical so I can be armed and ready
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Most of the oestrogens be they patch or pills are bio identical,
The progesterone that is bio identical is Utrogestan.
If you have a look at the drop down menus all the info is there.
Honeybun
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I think it is a 'Labours of Eve' thing. Women were meant to suffer. I used to think it was a religious thing but it seems to be a thing that is bound deep in our society. We have thrown away the religious aspect, but we still have people who strongly think that you should not 'go against nature'
I totally agree with you. There are so many people (including women) out there who think that menopause is a "natural" process and we shouldn't tinker with it by using hormones. Well they're men who never have to go through it anyway, and women who probably never suffered anything more than just a slightly damp upper lip.
However, if we're not supposed to "go against nature" would all these people be prepared to still have to contend with smallpox, untreated cancers and diseases etc. I suspect not. They're hypocrites because they're not prepared to follow that "don't go against nature" mantra to its obvious conclusion. It all gets back to "women have no right to feel good about themselves".
Also, it's all very well to be cynical and conspiratorial about "Big Pharma", but where exactly would we be without it? Do you think the compounding or the alternative medication industries are any better – the answer is a big fat NO!! There is a lot of underhanded stuff going on there too – simply because money is involved.
Sure I agree that when money and profit is involved things can get very muddy, but is it really that surprising to be told that pharma companies are about making money. What business isn't? They aren't a charity, and no one expects them to be.
Frankly I'm quite happy to accept the downside to "Big Pharma" as long as I can still have my hormones, and any other medication I may need as I get older. If other people want to be so down on pharma companies, fine, but don't accept any of the medications they produce if they are so terrible.
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There are so many people (including women) out there who think that menopause is a "natural" process and we shouldn't tinker with it by using hormones. Well they're men who never have to go through it anyway, and women who probably never suffered anything more than just a slightly damp upper lip.
well, I was - am - like many of those people in thinking menopause is a natural process that shouldn´t be tinkered with. And probably I´m a victim of the negative press HRT has had. So, I´ve never been to my doctor about my symptoms. I suffer hot flushes, clumsiness, tearfullness, irritability and sleepless nights, I used to get up in the morning and you wouldn´t even know I had been in the bed - the covers never moved I slept so peacefully. Now that´s a distant dream ha ha. Also more recently loss of libido and vaginal atrophy - not nice for OH.
I´m now 58 and started menopause at 49. Never thought it would last so long, and now I know it may never end. :-\ Only recently found this site and am thinking I must do something about my quality of life. Slightly challenging as I´m living abroad with no access to NHS. Still, if I´ve coped with these symptoms for so long surely I can do this!
Jane
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Hi grumpyjane. You've done really well to try without HRT for such a long time facing all of these symptoms but with everything else you have to contend with - fairly new partner, his children, living abroad etc. - won't you give it a go? Life is too short to spend feeling so unwell all of the time. Lots of things are "natural" but that doesn't mean that we have to put up with them. If you go to see a doctor and find that you can't have HRT then at least you will have tried. This will mean a lot to your partner too - the fact that you are willing to see if there is anything to improve your quality of life and maybe get back some intimacy.
Taz x :hug:
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Diabetes is a 'natural' process. As is cancer. But we don't just meekly accept them. We bring out the big guns. Headaches and migraines are also 'natural' but we happily reach for aspirin, in their millions.
Thrush is 'natural' as is cystitis, but you have to be a masochist to endure them without medical intervention.
My poor DD suffers with nasty period cramps. Should I just look on and tell her it's 'only natural' and she has to be in extreme pain for hours and hours. No I don't, because I'm not a sadist. I reach for the painkillers and make her up a hit water bottle.
In the Western world we are incredibly blessed to have access to modern medicine. And it's incredibly churlish, if not arrogant, to sneer at what modern medicine can achieve when millions of people in the third world will never benefit from it, and suffer and die needlessly, in their millions.
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💗
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I disagree that diabetes is natural. How can something that kills you be natural.
To be honest diabetes is mentioned in comparison to the menopause occasionally on the forum and it really annoys me as my hubby is Type 1 and it damned near killed him, and if not properly managed could still do....so perhaps a better comparison could be made
Honeyb
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Just because something is 'natural' doesn't mean it can't kill you.
I would argue that a condition like diabetes is natural in that, unfortunately, the body is unable to regulate its insulin production. The condition is caused by an internal malfunction of the body's own processes, it's not caused by exterior forces etc.
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I won't argue that big pharma companies are in it for the money. But regardless of that, there's no denying that HRT does help millions of women. And I, for one, would be fully prepared to take HRT or the BCP even knowing the risk involved because I would prioritise quality of life over risk. As I think many women would?
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As an ajoinder, natural childbirth with zero medical intervention is extremely 'natural' and women have been giving birth without medical assistance for hundreds of thousands of years.
But being an extremely 'natural' process didn't stop child birth being one of the biggest killers of women prior to modern medicine and modern obstetric techniques, though.
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When did going through the menopause endanger your life on a daily basis.
Quality of course but it's not dangerous. It's nature's way on ensuring if we have children we are going to be fit enough and live long enough to look after them.
It's all bit evangelical for me to be honest.
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Again I would argue that menopause can be life endangering if it reduces the quality of your life to such an extent that life doesn't feel worth living anymore. On my blackest days stepping under a bus seemed like a valid option, just to make all the awful anxiety and misery stop.
A local woman recently committed suicide due to severe PND. Not menopause, but hormonally induced depression and anxiety nonetheless.
But really why should anyone have to wait until something was verging on death before seeking treatment?
As for menopause being Nature's way of stopping us having more children and allowing us to take care of our children properly? Well up until th 20th century most women were dead well before they reached 50. I think the average mortality age was something like 46? So it's unlikely most women would ever have experienced menopause.
Physiologically we weren't designed to run without decent levels of oestrogen to support us
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Yes I do agree with Pranja that risks should be absolutely clear. But it's so hard when each new study often contradicts earlier ones. But this is only to be expected with big advanced in medical research happening all the time.
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Millions of women do come out the other side of theenopause. Granted. But who knows what they have suffered during the process?
I simply had no idea how invasive and life changing menopausal symptoms can be. Yet I am well educated, work in a clinical environment and have many friends and acquaitances who work in medicine and health care. Yet NONE us knew.
Let's face it, even most doctors are unaware if how menopause can manifest and dramatically impact on women's lives as constantly evidenced on here. What hope does your average lay woman have when it comes to equating her symptoms and suffering with the menopause?
Many women continue to suffer long after the menopause has technically finished? My Mum has friends in their 70s who still struggle with awful hot flushes and crippling VA.
No woman is forced to take HRT. But thank goodness that HRT is an option they can take if they so choose.
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And I don't think anyone is saying HRT can help everyone are they?
I took HRT myself for over 4 months and frankly it didn't really help me at all. But I do know women IRL and on here for whom HRT does work wonderfully. And for their sakes I am glad that they have it as an option.
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But with headaches, what is causing the pain? Just something not quite right temporarily in your brain chemistry, that's all. Assuming it is just a normal headache?
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I have a hormonal imbalance. When this was diagnosed, the consultant said, 'you have an estrogen deficiency and, at your age, you need to replace the missing hormone in order to protect your heart and bones. There are risks to HRT, which you can research, but the greatest risk of all is for you not to take it'. (He did point out that it would be a different scenario if I was over 50). In the same way I'd take insulin if diabetic and iron if anaemic, I take estrogen to manage this deficiency. It means I can now walk normally and wear normal underwear again, work without disruption, have a social life and rarely hassle my doctor/the NHS.
Whilst menopause, like pregnancy/periods, is totally natural, some of our bodies 'malfunction' in this process, and just as we'd have medical intervention if the pregnancy was not proceeding correctly, many of us have intervention because our hormones are not proceeding through life's stages normally. People in this situation are not simply weak people going through a natural process, they are ill people suffering frightening symptoms because a natural process has gone wrong who deserve to be respected and understood in the same way any other patient would be, whether a diabetic, asthmatic or whatever.
It is quite hurtful to suggest that those taking hormonal medication are simply not tough enough to manage a 'natural' situation. There's nothing natural about the way many people on this site do or have suffered!
B
PS I do agree that there should be greater transparency in the reporting of risks and I tend to be cynical about 'new' reports, positive or negative.
PPS Before anyone says anything about me 'scaring' those who dont take HRT with stories about risks to hearts and bones, I am only referring to people under the natural age for menopause or who have hormonal imbalances at a younger age - when the risks are different. I genuinely have the greatest respect for those who don't take HRT - for myriad reasons- but equally, I don't want to be made to feel weak for choosing to take it myself. I have enough of that perspective IRL. ???
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Very well put Briony.
Menopause is a natural process. But it's not like having a broken bone e.g either it is broken or it is not.
There are so many shades to menopause and varying degrees of symptom severity. And for some women, sadly, the symptoms are so severe that they genuinely lose the ability to function at all.
I think this is typified by 'hot flushes'. I have friends who when having a hot flush go almost purple and have visible sweat running out of their hair. Yet I have other friends also having a hot flush who just look very pinked cheek and feel 'warmer than normal. Yet both are categorised as hot flushes.
Like you, my consultant told me I was 'too young' ideally to already be suffering with depleted oestrogen at only 42. She explained it that my ovaries had switched themselves off (to a large extent) 10 years too soon, at a time when my body was still designed to be running in much higher oestrogen levels.
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I've been reading all the posts here and as a newbie wanted to add a few comments.
I think it's pointless making comparisons between HRT research and negligence by pharma companies generally. HRT has been around since the 1940s. That's getting on for 80 years. We are learning all the time about the risks and benefits, especially as HRT becomes more individualised, which I understand is the way that certain consultants already work and hope to see all women treated like this in the future. By that I mean lower than standard doses, long cycle, use of bio identical hormones, Mirena as part of it, and so on - anything rather than just handing over a prescription for bog standard HRT pills. It is likely that risks and benefits will change as HRT becomes more tailored to each woman's needs and medical / genetic history - as is the future for cancer drugs too.
It's unlikely I believe that we will see massive trials in the immediate future simply on the basis of funding. The NHS and the MRC do not have funds for this kind of research when there are so many other 'more important' research areas like cancer and gene therapy (stem cells etc.)
That leaves it to the pharma companies to invest, but I think it's unlikely they will do a huge lot more. HRT is very cheap compared to lots of drugs- the wholesale price is actually less than a prescription fee. Even if all menopausal women used HRT it would be a drop in the ocean profit-wise for pharma companies who are focusing on treatment for heart disease, cancer, diabetes, obesity and so on.
I think one factor that has been overlooked in the debate here so far is that of consultants. They are the experts who chair the British Menopause Society and the IMS and they feed their expertise down to GPs. They are able to look at the research and interpret it to give advice to patients. Some have a genuine and active interest in menopause and carry out their own research.
HRT has risks and benefits- like any drug. No drug is risk free- not even aspirin.
The short term symptoms of the menopause don't kill. But long term deprivation of oestrogen especially for younger women, does. There are more women who die from the complications of broken hips- 14000 a year compared to 11000 deaths from breast cancer. The lifetime risk of a hip fracture is 1:6, breast cancer 1:9. These are serious issues and for many women using HRT for an early menopause or throughout their 60s when risks equal benefits, can be a life saver.
At the end of the day, you make a choice. You accept that there is probably a small risk for some women with HRT but it's not clear exactly how much. It may be 1 more case of breast cancer per 1000 women, it may be fewer. It may depend on the type of progesterone used, it may not. This is currently unknown though being researched and discussed amongst consultants in the UK.
As other posters have said, there are far greater risk which we take on a daily basis. It's dangerous to drive a car, or drink more than 1 unit of alcohol a day. 60% of women are overweight and inactive, which are bigger risk factors for breast and uterine cancers, but most women choose to ignore this as it requires willpower and effort to change.
There is no doubt at all though that oestrogen stops bone density falling and builds it up; the evidence for this is clear and no one contests that. It's also clear from much research so far that HRT started early in menopause can reduce heart disease.
http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e6409
Menopause is natural, sure. But so is heart disease and cancer - they are called DIS-eases. Meaning our body is out of synch and something's gone wrong. As others have pointed out, in the past until around 1900, life expectancy for women was around 46. Many women would still be producing children up to when they died (perhaps in childbirth) so the menopause was not an issue. Women didn't work once they had children (not in professional roles as they were banned once they married) so life was very different. It's important to be kind to each other when talking about HRT because I suspect no woman uses it until she feels she HAS to in order to cope with work, family, and life in general. The last thing we need is other women beating us over the head saying we ought not to use it as it's some kind of vanity drug!
lecture over! Sorry to go on.
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Thank you Duchess :thankyou: :thankyou:
I am very surprised, that in 2015, anyone would contest that lack of oestrogen doesn't lead to loss of bone density.
My Mum had a surgical menopause in her early 40s and only took HRT for about 6 months? In her early 50s she had a fall, and broke her wrist. Well I think 'shattered' is a better description? I saw her x-rays! And it wasn't even a nasty fall, more of a smooth slide over to one side, but she put her hand out to stop herself and her wrist just shattered like shrapnel.
Further tests revealed very poor bone density. Exact same thing happened to her twin sister. Post menopausal at 38. No HRT. Tripped up her front door step when she was 49 and broke her ankle. Again tests showed very poor bone density.
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Duchess, thank you. :foryou:
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But other posters made it into a debate about HRT and used the topic to talk about lawsuits and criminality in pharma companies.
As far as I know, there has never been a law suit on HRT . I'd rather trust consultants to review research published because, as far as is possible to tell, they have no axe to grind either way.
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Do GPs accept massive gifts in return for prescribing drugs? Really? I was at university with a lot of medical students who are still friends and are now doctors.
I think this is a bit of an urban myth. When the subject has been raised in the past my GP friends have snorted and gone 'I bloody wish...'.
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Good post Duchess. Lots of things in life are natural but we don't necessarily want to go there. Is taking the birth control pill natural? If you study the actual risks of taking HRT they are very minimal and the vast majority of women who take it benefit from it enormously and don't get some horrible disease.
When the million women study was carried out they were using mainly oral synthetic HRT in high doses, on women who were way past the menopause and that is why the study has been discredited. HRT has moved on since then and the general consensus is that the progesterone part of oral HRT is the part that carries the risks. That is why the transdermal bio identical HRT is mostly used now because the risks are much lower and it performs much better.
A friend I used to work with years ago who is much older than myself has lost about 25 years of her life due to very debilitating menopause symptoms. She was only 48 at the time and used to regularly say "my life is over now". She had zero sex drive, constant hot flushes, bladder problems, aches and pains, depression and her whole personality changed vitually overnight - her life was a complete misery. She tried oral HRT but had breast pain so gave up on it. She now has oesteoporosis and wishes that the better HRT that is around now had been available to her.
I also witnessed my mother's health deteriorate after the menopause. She didn't have conventional menopause symptoms of hot flushes and night sweats but hasn't had a full night's sleep in over 30 years, has bladder problems, developed high blood pressure, has had two hip replacements and now has curvature of the spine. My parents are the same age but time has been much kinder to my father.
At the end of the day it is up to the individual to decide and I don't think it is something that people can be persuaded on. I made my decision to take HRT a long time ago and I'm in it for the long term. One thing is for sure, you will never find 100% guarantees of safety in anything you do in life.
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But the point Prajna is that, in reality, neither you nor I can prove or disprove the information that pharma companies publish. 'Trust' is meaningless really.
Unless we conduct our own research trials, what can we do?
We can remain cynical- perhaps based on an academic study of previous criminal cases- or we can trust UK consultants, read the research ourselves- and I mean the actual papers not summaries in the media- and make an informed choice.
I hardly think that top consultants are rubbing their hands with glee at the number of women they manage to get onto HRT in the hope they will get a holiday or other back hander out of it!
It's like a lot of stuff in life- getting married, having a child, starting a new job, moving to another location - you weigh it all up then it's leap of faith and you hope for the best. There are no guarantees in life for anything.
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In the 1970s I helped to host drug company meetings with NHS Staff and was never aware of 'hand outs' ;). It was great fun and interesting to see the Consultants in mufti ::). It was a chance to let our hair down. Reps. from different Pharmaceutical Companies were always calling in to see the Staff.
Duchess - any statistic can be manipulated. Any part of Research can be left out of what is 'leaked' to the Press in order to proffer up 'good' results. It would be nice if Companies were totally honest and produced all the Research undertaken. Sadly this doesn't always happen. Quite honestly, having spent hours typing up Scientific Papers not many people 'in the street' would have the energy or know-how to understand half of it ::) ……. research costs huge amounts. That's before it gets off the ground. Most drugs take 7+ years before they get to the general public!
Let's wait and see what NICE suggest ……. and keep notes on how GPs across the UK deal/not with requests for HRT ;)
Quality of Life, ladies: quality of Life ;) - don't forget that Bus.
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But the point Prajna is that you cannot prove or disprove any of it, as it's only shown to be lies or whatever you want to call it years down the line if there is evidence to show the research wasn't totally honest.
You can make an individual choice- which appears to be not wanting to believe research done in the US - and that's fine.
I am sure that the BMS who publish consensus statements are fully aware of all of this- they aren't gullible fools.
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We aren't being paid to prove/disprove ::) that's what we rely on the Drugs Companies and Medics to filter out. Filtering out can only be done if people are honest ……. it also depends a lot on who Funds the various Research Projects ;)
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There actually have been law suits against manufacturers of HRT
This is just one that was brought to my attention but there are more.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/07/08/canadian-hrt-users-can-claim-compensation-from-13m-fund.html
Honeybun
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Surely everyone knows that stats can be 'massaged' and research results weighted in a certain way?
This is nothing new.
As far as drugs go, it's good to have some healthy scepticism, but when this becomes all-out cynicism, where does that leave you?
History shows there are occasions when information was withheld or new evidence provides more information on the drug.
But it's only with hindsight that we are aware of this. (My mum was offered Thalidomide when pregnant with me and thank goodness she decided to avoid drugs.)
At the moment statins, which only a few months ago were being touted as the 'must have drug' for all the over-50s, have now been shown to be well...not quite so good after all.
I think what annoys me about some reactions to research on HRT is that it's 'cherry picking'; if you refuse to accept the research or feel it lacks honesty, then you have to apply that principle to all drugs, surely? So if you are having treatment for cancer, or heart disease, or MS or any other terrible illness, you would refuse it on the basis the pharma companies are not being honest? Or would you just reject US research?
Or are we back to the idea that HRT is for something that women should just suffer from and it's not worth taking a risk?
I'm not holding my breath for the Nice report because Nice has a habit of making decisions based not just on benefit but also on economics; if the cost of the drug outweighs the benefits to the population they refuse access to it, although people can often pay for it.. Many people are denied life saving/extending drugs because Nice decided they were too costly.
If HRT was £400 a packet and not £4 it would be interesting to see their reaction. Now who's being cynical?
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Well quite right Duchess. If pharma companies are basically dishonest then would the highly cynical posters on here eschew drugs for cancer treatment? Or for high blood pressure? Or for diabetes?
Or do pharma companies only decide to get all shifty and slightly dishonest when it comes to HRT? But why would they be so selective, especially when HRT is dirt cheap compared to many drugs, especially cancer ones?
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Why is the conversation silly? Because some of us are pointing out the illogical reasoning behind some comments?
If the whole point of the thread was whether to trust pharma companies and their research, then this conversation is spot-on.
If people don't worry about the research behind cancer drugs, then why is HRT different? Are we back to minimising the menopause and women's suffering from long term, hormone-related health issues that can kill them?
Many cancer drugs kill because they are so powerful. It's a very fine line between kill and cure with chemo.
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This conversation is starting to get just a little bit silly now.
.... because of the breast cancer they got from taking the hrt in question!!
You might feel that the conversation has got 'silly', but then by adding inflammatory comments like this, on a forum where many people take HRT, not for vanity, but because of the sheer desperation to get back some sort of quality of life, surely you realise that's going to provoke strong feelings and thus further the 'silly' debate?
One in eight people are affected by breast cancer, so inevitably a lot of ladies on here who take HRT will be affected by it. Whether the HRT is the direct cause or not is a different issue. After all, there are clear links with breast cancer and alcohol, breast cancer and weight, yet there doesn't seem to be the same aggression aimed at ladies who drink and are over weight?
... http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/about-cancer/causes-of-cancer/bodyweight-and-cancer/how-being-overweight-causes-cancer
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Agree with you Briony.
What strikes me most as rather 'silly' is repeatedly posting veiled sneers about HRT on a forum where many women have chosen to take HRT?
What purpose is it meant to achieve other than annoyance and often hurt feelings?
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But those statements you refer to are usually true!
Many women do suffer for decades and many women do have long term ill health through oestrogen deficiency.
This is not scaremongering.
No one is suggesting women take HRT if they are symptom-free. HRT is for women with short and medium term symptoms, and in some women under 60 it can be used to treat osteoporosis if other treatments are unsuitable. (There are a lot of people who have terrible side effects with bisphosphonates used instead of HRT to treat osteoporosis , including jaw deformity & fractures, and gastro-intestinal damage.)
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I still think that asking if a 'highly cynical poster' would avoid cancer treatment in the same way they would have concerns about hrt, is not only silly but downright insulting. Cancer sufferers are in a different league to women going through the menopause, hence my response.
Insulting? Maybe some posters are getting annoyed because the illogical nature of the posting is being exposed.
If the argument is 'are pharma companies honest or not' then this applies to all research and all treatments surely.
There are people who refuse chemo because of its unpleasant side effects and often negative outcomes- Linda Bellamy perhaps?
More women die from oestrogen-deficiency-induced disease, which may be prevented by HRT, than caused by it.
Is it right to minimise the menopause and scorn at research/ treatment by saying cancer is in a different league? We ALL know of someone who has had cancer ; some choose chemo, some don't. Some die with chemo, some recover without.
I don't know where this conversation is going because although it was about the validity of research (into HRT) some posters now want to make it into a competition of 'oh this illness is worse, so integrity of research doesn't matter.'
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Ah thanks Teresa. I think people maybe get a bit frustrated when people ask for advice on alternatives because it's such an individual response- a lot of it doesn't work and is aimed at women who are afraid of HRT (or who can't use it) and there is little proof it works. I'm all in favour of alternatives if they work, but the research so far is patchy. If women want to try it, fair enough, but as long as that choice is well -informed and not based on bad press for HRT from 20 years back!
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Again have to agree with Duchess in that a lot of posts on here from very cynical posters clearly haven't been well thought through or had any logic applied to them. And when others have politely pointed this out there is then annoyance which is presumably masking some embarrassment?
There's no denying that this forum is heavily orientated toward HRT and medical intervention for menopause. I assume this is because it was created and is now run by doctors who believe in empirical results?
There are plenty of other menopause sites run by people with no formal medical qualifications whatsoever, and which offer many 'alternatives' to HRT.
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But pharmacists are just people like the rest of us! They have opinions. Your friend is lucky. I'm unclear if your friend is 58 AND a pharmacist or these are two different people?
If she was suffering she'd take HRT I expect. This is the whole point- why suffer and have a poor quality of life when you don't need to? No one takes HRT lightly, we think very very hard before choosing to and constantly re-consider if it's the right choice.
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Oh gosh, I seem to have started a bit of a storm with this post.....very interesting though. Can anyone tell me when the NICE report will be published and where I will find it? I am going back to chat to my doctor, he's very sympathetic. I have been off HRT now for almost a year but confess life has been pretty miserable a lot of the time and I'm thinking I will restart it. I'm now 65 and have suffered memo symptoms since 52. They completely disappeared whilst taking HRT and I felt so well. I was scared by reports and doctors into stopping.....I wish I hadn't. I was taking the lowest dose three times a week and it was working. Sometimes my internal heat is so great I really feel like I will spontaneously combust, my face and chest are beetroot and sweat trickles down my back...I truly think I will pass out because of the intense heat....it can happen anywhere, driving, in the supermarket, restaurant etc...!! I never thought it would go on this long 😥😪
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That's their choice- you do what's right for you. If they want to suffer, fair enough. Their symptoms may simply not be that bad- who knows?
I have a lot of respect for pharmacists, but I don't agree totally with your friend.
Symptoms have to be bad enough to affect quality of life and for most women using HRT this means without it they'd not be able to work (efficiently or so well) due to lack of sleep or maybe anxiety as well as the hot flushes and sweats.
None of my friends are using HRT but that's because their symptoms were not that bad. I am also the only one still working.
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Teresa, oh dear. Your friend is very lucky to not even need to take aspirin, ever. But most of us are more human than that.
None of my friends are going through what I have suffered with for the last 2 years, and probably won't do for another 10 years still. I started perimenopause quite young.
Agree it is down to severity. Some symptoms are just crippling, either physiologically or psychologically, so why suffer?
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This is a good discussion .. I have taken HRT for 8 years and have no intention ( health allowing ) of stopping. I run my own business and without HRT would have become a jibbering idiot through lack of sleep and anxiety having never suffered from either of these issues before. Suspect my marriage would have also suffered. I also took the BCP for many years but taking these drugs does not stop me from keeping on top of all the research. Am also aware that pharmaceutical companies remove the guinea pigs who early on are having side effects to a drug while it is being tested. Their side effects are not then part of the study. The studies cost vast amounts of money and most of us who have pensions are probably invested in them so we too are happy for them to make large sums of money . We just need a healthy interest and not take everything at face value - then make a balanced decision. As I said earlier alcohol is a far greater danger than HRT but we all seem to slug that back - soon be g and t time - have a happy weekend everyone :D
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Quite right Winterose. How many of the cynics on here who mutter so darkly about the risks of HRT, cheerfully knock back 2-3 glasses of wine of an evening? Or deliberately ignore the fact their scales are telling them they are 2 stone overweight?
Both of the above carry far higher risk factors than taking HRT.
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well that just shows how different everyone is. I am juggling two adult children, a husband, elderly ill parents, and a job that is intellectually demanding. I only work part time but I'm self employed, so no work = no money.
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Yes I understand that but I struggle to find much about alternatives and healthy lifestyles.maybe that's a different type of forum..maybe a different outlook.maybe I'm trying to justify to myself why I don't use hrt..yet :)I've just noticed that posts about herbal aids,vitamins exercise etc are sometimes met with a negativity that hrt doesn't get.I do enjoy your posts duchess by the way :)
I can see what you're getting at and always try to qualify what I write with an 'I appreciate it's a personal choice' kind of comment. Trouble is, it's such a sensitive issue that sometimes you can write something, trying to be helpful, and not realise how you have come across. :-\
I think one of the reasons some of us on here, especially the younger ones (for whom the hrt risk is much lower) are less positive about alternative techniques is that we've spent so much time and money on them with so little improvement. It particularly frustrates me when people suggest exercise as a way of coping, as for some of us, we've had to give up exercising because of our symptoms. ??? I spent not far off £500 on physio and osteo appointments in a desperate hope it would cure things,ditto pilates, expensive herbal remedies and high dose vitamin d on a private prescription. I did all of this in the desperate hope it would mean I wouldn't have to succumb to hrt or the pill - I literally trawled the internet looking for the next remedy or a genuine example of how someone my age with similar symptoms had had great success from a natural remedy.
Unfortunately, I didn't find it.
- What I did find instead was this site and people who understood my situation and eased my 'guilt' about tasking hrt; finding a lovely, level headed GP who helped me get things in perspective and make an informed choice about my medication was the icing on the cake.
Whatever route you decide to take, natural or otherwise, I hope you find a solution that works for you. Perhaps the only thing we can all agree on in this thread is the fact that hormones can be damned horrid!
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It comes down to personal choice in the end - weighing up the risks v quality of life with/without any treatment. I would love to be able to chuck my BCP packs away, but I know if I do, I will have very little quality of life, and as I am low-risk, I keep taking my pills!
The most important thing is not to make ourselves or anyone else feel guilty for the choices we make. I have a friend in her 30s who is suffering from VA and refusing to take anything - she is quite smug about the fact that she hasn't 'given in' to HRT. I am really worried about her, but I respect her right to make her own decision, even though I don't agree with it. And I won't let her attitude toward my treatment make me feel guilty.
As other posters have commented, there is too much guilt put on women full stop. I have a friend who was crippled by guilt after both her children were born, because a) she had to have C-sections instead of natural birth and b) she was unable to breastfeed. Women who had 'achieved' both really made her feel like a failure, but she is fit and well and raising two happy, healthy, well-behaved and adorable children, so where's the failure? Likewise, if you can manage the menopause without assistance, that is brilliant, but if you need some help to live life as fully as possible, you haven't 'failed', you've just taken a different path. :)
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It comes down to personal choice in the end - weighing up the risks v quality of life with/without any treatment. I would love to be able to chuck my BCP packs away, but I know if I do, I will have very little quality of life, and as I am low-risk, I keep taking my pills!
The most important thing is not to make ourselves or anyone else feel guilty for the choices we make. I have a friend in her 30s who is suffering from VA and refusing to take anything - she is quite smug about the fact that she hasn't 'given in' to HRT. I am really worried about her, but I respect her right to make her own decision, even though I don't agree with it. And I won't let her attitude toward my treatment make me feel guilty.
As other posters have commented, there is too much guilt put on women full stop. I have a friend who was crippled by guilt after both her children were born, because a) she had to have C-sections instead of natural birth and b) she was unable to breastfeed. Women who had 'achieved' both really made her feel like a failure, but she is fit and well and raising two happy, healthy, well-behaved and adorable children, so where's the failure? Likewise, if you can manage the menopause without assistance, that is brilliant, but if you need some help to live life as fully as possible, you haven't 'failed', you've just taken a different path. :)
Wise words, Dorothy :)
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Thank you Briony.. Sorry to hear you had to stop exercising due to menopause..was it too painful and has hrt stopped it? I feel so much better now I'm doing yoga..appreciate I'm very lucky.I was practically symptom free until I stopped the pill when I reached 55 so only had six months of symptoms so far..not nearly as long as so many of you so I'm relatively OK in comparison.
Yes, it was too painful. I had water retention affecting the nerves, which resulted in ankle and shoulder pain, but it took ages to realise this and was it treated as a sports injury for ages. I was only 40 at the time, and running 40 odd miles a week, so it left me very frustrated. HRT was definitely a step in the right direction, but being peri menopausal, it still resulted in extreme fluctuations (hrt 'tops up' rather than controls so sometimes I had too much estrogen) so I have now moved to the BCP. Feel better than I have done in years. That said - I do accept the pill isnt for everyone and am not suggesting everyone who takes it will have the same outcome.
Very interested that you took the BCP until your 50s. I wonder if it has made any difference to how your menopause will pan out? (Though that's for another thread - this one has already gone in enough directions ;)).
B
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Even wiser words Prajna.
It does seem that some are being told that this site is not for them unless they belong to the evangelical HRT brigade.
It's getting stifling and over bearing.
All opinions should be respected at all times....experiences should be shared but at NO time should something be shoved down a members throat as being the ONLY way.
Understanding and empathy were the cornerstone of this forum when I joined many years ago.
We supported and nothing else.
What happened to that....it seems to be going....fast.
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Posters need to actually read what was posted before they start accusing people of things that they didn't say.
There are plenty of other menopause sites run by people with no formal medical qualifications whatsoever, and which offer many 'alternatives' to HRT.
This is quite different from saying' you ought not to be using this site'.
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I have been here a very long time and I know exactly how the forum was years ago..
Doesn't make it right but does make it very different.
When newbies joined they were welcomed and worked their way gradually into the forum. Me included....took me ages before I offered an opinion. I was looking for help and empathy and understanding. Which I got in spades.
The forum didn't have the edginess that it sometimes has now.
Still things change I guess.
Honeybun
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The new direction of this thread makes me very uncomfortable.
I have certainly seen 'edginess' between long-term members. One previous thread in particular was quite vitriolic, so is it really fair to imply that it's the newer members who have altered things? It almost sounds like you need to 'earn' the right to have an opinion (certainly an opinion other than that of the longer standing members)? Surely not? Perhaps I've just mis-read things ???
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No not at all, just seems to me newer members who are looking for general,advice might be put off posting.
It's a difficult balance.
It's as I said....the forum is changing...but what doesn't over the years.
Who is to say what is right or wrong when it comes to this......all I know is we are all entitled to a say and to be listened too and not shouted down if the party line is not adhered to.
Honeybun
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Wow.. I only reported that "they think HRT is safe" after all. Think I'll sneak off quietly to the doctors.....
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;D.....don't go yet....hopefully normal service will be resumed soon.
Honeybun
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;D.....don't go yet....hopefully normal service will be resumed soon.
Honeybun
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Absolutely ;)
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Teresa, oh dear. Your friend is very lucky to not even need to take aspirin, ever. But most of us are more human than that.
None of my friends are going through what I have suffered with for the last 2 years, and probably won't do for another 10 years still. I started perimenopause quite young.
Agree it is down to severity. Some symptoms are just crippling, either physiologically or psychologically, so why suffer?
The interesting thing is that some women may also be suffering menopause symptoms but refuse to admit it, or don't realise that's what's causing it. I am one of the youngest out of one of the group of friends I have. Most of them are in their 60s and 70s, and I'm the only one (at age 56) who is using HRT. When I began suffering horribly about 5 years ago I never got any sympathy or understanding from them. The attitude seemed to be that I was just being a whinger because none of them suffered anything.
However, when having dinner with them last week, it was actually quite amusing for me to listen to all of them complaining about their lack of sleep, their aches and pains, their anxiety, their lack of motivation etc. I just sat back very quietly - not giving them any of the sympathy or understanding I never got from them. ;)
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I think one of the reasons some of us on here, especially the younger ones (for whom the hrt risk is much lower) are less positive about alternative techniques is that we've spent so much time and money on them with so little improvement. It particularly frustrates me when people suggest exercise as a way of coping, as for some of us, we've had to give up exercising because of our symptoms. ??? I spent not far off £500 on physio and osteo appointments in a desperate hope it would cure things,ditto pilates, expensive herbal remedies and high dose vitamin d on a private prescription. I did all of this in the desperate hope it would mean I wouldn't have to succumb to hrt or the pill - I literally trawled the internet looking for the next remedy or a genuine example of how someone my age with similar symptoms had had great success from a natural remedy.
Unfortunately, I didn't find it.
- What I did find instead was this site and people who understood my situation and eased my 'guilt' about tasking hrt; finding a lovely, level headed GP who helped me get things in perspective and make an informed choice about my medication was the icing on the cake.
Whatever route you decide to take, natural or otherwise, I hope you find a solution that works for you. Perhaps the only thing we can all agree on in this thread is the fact that hormones can be damned horrid!
I will admit to being very anti-alternate medications for menopause because FOR ME the alternatives were a complete and total waste of time, it made everything worse, and it cost me a fortune.
I was really reluctant to take HRT, because I was one of the sheep who believed what I read in the media. I said "I want to do this naturally" and went to a naturopath. What a joke. Over a period of 3 months I spent $3,000 (Aussie dollars - I don't know what that is in UK coin), but it was a hell of a lot of money..... and I was actually worse off when I was finished because I now had a dependency on diazepam, which came with a whole set of new and interesting problems to add to the menopause issues.
It's only in the last 12-18 months or so that I've finally gotten my life back on track, but I still have ups and downs because of my issues with progesterone/progestin, but I KNOW that if I wasn't on HRT I probably would have taken my own life by now, so bad were my symptoms.
So I actually get quite offended by the people (some on this very thread) who claim menopause isn't "life threatening". These claims are so obviously made by women who never had any severe meno problems, because maybe in itself menopause isn't life threatening, or in the same realm as cancer or diabetes etc, but the side effects sure are life threatening. So unless you've actually been there, it's really not fair to judge.
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Dana I absolutely agree. Some women don't suffer at all, or have such slight symptoms they are easily dealt with. Only the women whose symptoms are severe, like yours and mine, really know how bad it gets.....and I mean BAD. I'm now 65' after 12 happy years on HRT I was badgered and slightly bullied into stopping it, all the adverse health issues were thrown at me. I now regret that decision.....nearly a year on the symptoms are as bad, I've given it time to settle (that's what I was told to do) and I've had a miserable time, affecting many aspects of my life. I now have a doctors appointment next week to discuss returning to HRT. For me it's about getting quality of life back.....I may only have up to 29 years left on this planet, half of which if not all could be feeling like this. Some ladies never get rid of the sweats....they can last a lifetime.
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Dana, you've said what I was trying to say, only you said it more articulately! X
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According to the experts you are at risk if
You drink alcohol
Smoke
Are overweight
Have too much sugar
Have to much fat
Don't have enough fruit/veg
Don't exercise
Who knows what risks you are up against when taking other medication.
I would not have taken HRT if my symptoms weren't severe, and for me it made a difference between living and existing.
Everybody has a choice and what they choose is entirely up to them.
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I certainly haven't told anyone here to go elsewhere. All I said was that there are plenty of other sites which are far more heavily orientated toward natural remedies than Menopause Matters is. Which happens to just be a fact.
MM does allude to alternative treatment but I think it is obvious that the majority of women on here do take HRT or other forms of modern medicine to help cope with their symptoms. Also I think many posters were referred here by their GPs, so it was always likely that that poster was already using conventional hormone treatment, hence them seeing their GP.
So if a poster wanted more extensive information on alternative treatment, or wanted feedback from lots of women using alternative treatments, then there are other forums better catering for their needs.
I spent 2 years trying alternate treatments, which cost me a small fortune (private naturopaths and herbalists aren't cheap) but nothing worked for me. I would have loved for it to have done but it just didn't.
But I wouldn't dream of telling someone else not to try.
But I do resent someone trying to twist what I have said in order to esculate a discussion into an argument and in order to try and score petty points.
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Interesting point Teresa. I'm single, childless with no siblings and I've noticed my friends with families are much more accepting of the whole process.
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So I actually get quite offended by the people (some on this very thread) who claim menopause isn't "life threatening". These claims are so obviously made by women who never had any severe meno problems, because maybe in itself menopause isn't life threatening, or in the same realm as cancer or diabetes etc, but the side effects sure are life threatening. So unless you’ve actually been there, it’s really not fair to judge.
Dana - you say you get quite offended when people claim menoopause isn't life threatening. However, you yourself said, "in itself menopause is not life threatening". Why get offended when other people make the same point? I must confess that I feel strongly that meno in itself isn't life threatening but do accept that the side effects may aggravate underlying issues.
It's like you only want comments from people who either: 1) Had bad issues with meno Or 2) Agree with you!
I think the vast majority of the forum members have had problems with the menopause - That's why we're here :)
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Yes I think majority are here because we take HRT and are exchanging our thoughts and experiences. It was someone on here who suggested to me to change my patches every 3 days instead of 4 and what a difference that made - that little tweak helped so much. I too thought I would " sail " through this and symptoms would be helped by alternatives however like other posters 6 months on and lack of sleep due to flushes and sweats etc drove me to the Gp who straight away supplied HRT - thank goodness within 3 days there was a big improvement. I still have some small issues which is why I am here however I feel they are probably caused by work stress . Also remember sometimes how something reads isnt how the writer intended it to sound , am sure we have all taken offence at an email now and again which in no way was intended. Theres enough fighting going on in the world so lets not fight on here however mad and menopausal we feel :D
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Bravo Limpy. :peace:
:thankyou: Prajna
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I arrived here via Ovacome magazine which I subscribed too following my friend's death from a disease not talked about at the time. Known as 'the secret killer' the Magazine and eventual Forum was an informative place to dip in and out of.
My family: that's a Grandma, a Granny, Mum, her Sister … but I only caught parts of any conversation because it wasn't to be talked about 'in front of the children'. Not being close to my cousins I've not talked with them either ::): has always called menopause "the Change" so I was aware that eventually periods would stop. I have no recollection of hot flushes being discussed nor some of the awful effects that a drop in oestrogen could cause.
So browsing here gave me confidence in that most of my symptoms were 'normal'. To be expected. My GP advised me 2 years ago about VA when repeated urine 'infections' didn't grow anything …….
My sister simply told me "I've been through all that" …… OK that's a no then ::)
Quality of Life is my Mantra ……. and I do hope that if GPs were going through similar symptoms there would be more dialogue with ladies ;)
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I had not realised that HRT was so emotive. As someone who is very pro HRT, I find it very hard to sit back and say nothing when so many women seem to be suffering so much. I would not be able to live with some of the symptoms these women have for a day let alone long term. Having found something that works so well for me, I almost feel duty bound to share it with others and recommend it. Not many forms of medication are as life changing as HRT and sorry if that sounds evangelical, it is not. Because oestrogen acts like a kind of control centre for so many vital functions, it is relatively easy to treat in one fell swoop unlike so many other more complicated conditions that medications can either help or (in some case) cure the condition but they don't necessarily change your life or make such a huge impact. These medications also carry risks.
As I have said before, everything you do has a risk and if you have decided that you do not want to take HRT and you are happy with that decision then you don't have a problem. The problem is with the millions of women who either want or need HRT that are either unable to get hold of it of put off by bad science. The choice is one only you can make.
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From the day we are born we take risks. What I need from my GP is advice that I trust. Advice that is up to date and which opens discussion.
As a hospital medical secretary I saw patients who accepted 'routine blood tests' without ever asking what they were for ::). Not once did a patient query why they were being sent for bloods. I learnt from that always to query if ever I was concerned and if my GP didn't seem to engage at an appt., I made another a couple of weeks later going in with "I was probably asleep last time but could you explain …….. ".
When I get an experience then I want to share it ……… which is where Forums come in. Spreading the 'word' ….. encouraging, advising, sharing …….. then people can take from my experience/s anything that might help and give it a whirl ;).
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So I actually get quite offended by the people (some on this very thread) who claim menopause isn't "life threatening". These claims are so obviously made by women who never had any severe meno problems, because maybe in itself menopause isn't life threatening, or in the same realm as cancer or diabetes etc, but the side effects sure are life threatening. So unless you've actually been there, it's really not fair to judge.
Dana - you say you get quite offended when people claim menoopause isn't life threatening. However, you yourself said, "in itself menopause is not life threatening". Why get offended when other people make the same point? I must confess that I feel strongly that meno in itself isn't life threatening but do accept that the side effects may aggravate underlying issues.
It's like you only want comments from people who either: 1) Had bad issues with meno Or 2) Agree with you!
I think the vast majority of the forum members have had problems with the menopause - That's why we're here :)
Of course menopause isn't life threatening, in the same sense that things like diabetes or cancer can be, but the people who make the claim that menopause isn't life threatening usually make absolutely no allowance for the fact that the side effects can be so horrific that they are life threatening - that's what's offensive to me. It seems they're just telling women to shut up and they have no right to complain because there are many people who are worse off.
Even you saying "but do accept that the side effects may aggravate underlying issues" would be quite belittling to a lot of women. You seem to be indicating that women must already have these depression, anxiety or suicidal issues before menopause, and menopause only magnifies the problems. I can tell that is so far from the truth it's not funny. I had no "underlying issues" prior to menopause. It was menopause wholly and solely that gave me the horrific symptoms I had.
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i am young 43 and use hrt. I wouldn't if I didn't need to.
Not being able to have sex with my husband because of a wrinkled dried out prune of a vagina, not sleeping, becoming an over emotional wreck and a shadow of my former self was not nice at all.
So all you lot who are judging can just get lost. End of. Maybe menopause isn't life threatening but it's certainly relationship threatening.
I can't put into words how upset it makes me when I see this kind of holier than thou crap spouted around.
Someone tell me,
WHAT CHOICE DID I HAVE?
and as for newer posters having to establish themselves before having an opinion, well. What a crock of shit. That's my opinion on that.
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:o :o
Honeyb
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And breathe..........
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im menopausal - what can I say? Sorry for my unusual hormonal outburst :-\ ;D
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I think you raise an interesting point Nina. Menopause might not be life threatening in the terms that it can physically kill you, as cancer or diabetes can (though I would argue that the symptoms of hormonal depression caused by menopause can kill. A local woman recently committed suicide because of PND).
But the severe symptoms caused by menopause, both physical and psychological very much do threaten your life. In so far as they change the way you live, often to an extreme degree.
Personally I had to give up a hobby because physically I just wasn't able to do it because of the joint pains I get. This in turn impacted on my social life a bit.
I have had to drastically change what I eat and when I eat it, which again has impacted on me socially. Coffee is just a distant memory now.
I have had to restructure my week so that I don't have to do too much on any one day, because it makes me feel overwhelmed. I had to cancel or turn down quite a few invites because my mood was so fragile that the thought of socialising made me panic.
And then of course all the changes to your intimate life with your husband.
All of these have contributed to very much the 'death' of my pre perimenopause life. I fully accept that in my mid 40s I won't ever be as spritely as I was at 25. I know that.
But there are other precious areas of my pre perimenopausal life which can still be resurrected and enjoyed since I have been on HRT/BCP.
I am tentatively starting to enjoy the occasional coffee again. I feel more confident about accepting social invitations again. Now I can usuakky count on getting a decent 6 hours sleep every night. There are positive glimmers of the person I used to be. Yes, older and bit more wrinkled, but definitely more me again.
For over 2 years I thought I had lost myself and that all of the things I had enjoyed about my life and myself had died.
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I'd told myself I was not going to post again on this thread as I think it has had its usefulness ... but reading Mary G, Nina and GRL's posts made me so emotional as they express more articulately than I can how I feel. I guess a number of us being 43 makes it all the more raw. This is what I meant yesterday when I said it 'cuts both ways'. It really isn't just those who are very pro hrt who can cause hurt on this site. Those who are very anti and aggressive in their arguments can - and do - cause just as much offence.
:peace: :peace:
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So all you lot who are judging can just get lost. End of. Maybe menopause isn't life threatening but it's certainly relationship threatening.
I can't put into words how upset it makes me when I see this kind of holier than thou crap spouted around.
Don't think anybody was judging or trying to be holier than thou :-\
Assuming my post upset you - I was describing how it is for me to be able to function at all - end of
Sorry
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Peri is horrid.
I think it started for me when I was 43, I had no idea what was going on, and that was whilst using the BCP!
I didn't even think about meno at all till I was 54 and had to come off the pill.
The BCP masked some of the issues but even that didn't stop the violent mood swings, definite aversion to sex or dry sore lady bits.
Prajna is right, we older ones do have the luxury of "the long view" things are not as raw.
Gosh, being older has it's benefits, who'd a thought it!
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Gosh, being older has it's benefits, who'd a thought it!
:)
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Teresa - It really masked it for me.
You don't know your periods have stopped because you get withdrawal bleeds. ::)
It was only when I stopped it that I realised my periods had stopped.
Initially after I stopped the pill I was enjoying not filling my body with chemicals.
I had flushes which were copeable, VA which needed local oestrogen.
Things weren't bad for 6 months after which my MS kicked off big style.
Oestrogen has a definite calming influence on MS (pregnant ladies don't get relapses)
A spectacular fall sent me scuttling to a GP with a brain, armed with articles describing the influence of oestrogen on MS. She gave me Evorel conti patches, for which I am so so grateful.
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Gosh, being older has it's benefits, who'd a thought it!
I'm looking forward to it! Having started peri symptoms at 35, I'm hoping I might see the last of my symptoms by 50...roll on half-century!
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I think starting with peri menopausal symptoms just as you turn 40 is brutal. I fully expected to have at least another 10 years before dealing with menopausal hassles.
Instead, they hit me like a sledge hammer just after my 42nd birthday. I feel that the menopause has stolen 10 years of my life. And 10 very important years when I still needed to be at the top of my game with a challenging job, pre teen children to take care of, a large family home to run and a husband often working away for days at a time.
The fact that I will (hopefully) be out the other side of menopause at just the time when my friends will be heading into it is actually very, very poor consolation. Because by then our DCs will be away at university, I intend to have given up work and DH should be semi retired (if all goes to plan).
So by then the menopause won't impact on my life nearly so much.
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I keep hearing colleagues in their early thirties saying there's 'no rush' to have a baby and secretly I want to scream at them 'yes there is!'. If I knew at 29 what I know now, I'd have played things so differently ...
(Nature's cruelty joke is that I cant even think that having never given birth, at least everything's in prime condition down there ::). * There's nothing sexy about menopause!).
* For once in my life, I'd be very happy to be proved wrong on this!
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(Nature's cruelty joke is that I cant even think that having never given birth, at least everything's in prime condition down there ::). * There's nothing sexy about menopause!).
* For once in my life, I'd be very happy to be proved wrong on this!
Briony - You are so so right
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Hindsight is a wonderful thing and youth is wasted on the young.
Please tell me to mind my own business but have you considered adoption. My sis has two adopted children and now four grand kids too. She had fertility issues in her 20s so knew from that point she would never be able to have a family.
Please ignore me if I have gone too far.
Honeybun
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Good point Honeybun - new thread?
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Bit of a personal thing CLKD so that's why I told Briony to ignore me if she wants ;)
Honeybun
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Adoption is not for everyone, as a woman who was also unable to have children due to.endo it is one of.my biggest bugbears when someone says have you.though about adoption. It is a long stressful process i know someone who went.through it the child did not gel and it nearly destroyed her.
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It is a very difficult thing to do....but incredibly rewarding if it works out.
Certainly not for everyone though.....and it was very different in my sisters day.
Honeybun
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I'll explain in Private Lives. Feels more secure than here ;)
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Please don't feel you have to....it was a bit of a passing comment and I in no way want you to feel uncomfortable.
Honeybun
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Pranja, I still can't believe that less than 3 years ago I had never even heard of peri menopause. Now I know far more about it than I ever expected or even wanted to know.
I am hoping my peri is a short one, I truly am.
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Teresa - Look on the main Index - it's between Menopause Discussion and General discussion