Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: GypsyRoseLee on June 07, 2015, 06:47:42 PM
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Decided to get a definitive answer from the manufacturers of Estradot, to see if a spray tan will stop the absorption of oestrogen from a transdermal patch. I also used a very rich moisturising shower crème whilst on holiday, and wondered if this created some sort of barrier too?
I have searched the Internet but haven't found any answers.
It's the only logical explanation I can think of for why I began to feel worse and worse while away? Then of course it culminated with my patch actually falling off at some point, so I could have been patchless for over 36 hours ::)
If it wasn't due to poor absorption then I don't know what it was? Especially as that week should have been my 'good' week i.e. just finished with drawl bleed and moving toward ovulation etc. So it was very strange.
Friday and yesterday I felt dreadfully low. The sort of horrible low where you just want to step under a bus to make it all stop :( I ended up in floods of tears and my lovely husband was very kind, but was clearly very worried that I was so upset and miserable :( He's never seen me like this except for when I had PND.
Thank God my mood started to slightly improve last night, and today I feel better but still quite shaky and drained.
Hopefully the manufacturers will reply, and I will post their answer on here so that others can be forewarned.
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I can go over four weeks before I feel any different without a patch. I am much further along the meno road than you though.
Hopefully the manufacturer will give you a definitive answer but it might be that your own hormones are still very up and down.
Let us know.
Honeybun
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Yes, I'd like to know either way honeybun. I'm only 8 weeks into HRT, so it's still early days and I have yet to have a 'proper' full 28 cycle. Because the first month I started HRT mid cycle, so only had 2 days with a patch before starting Utro. Then the second month I delayed taking the Utro by 2 weeks until we came back off holiday (only started taking it 2 nights ago).
I know I need to give the HRT at least another month or two. But if after that time, my own hormones are still going to be so up and down to this extent, then I will need to look at something stronger, like Qlaira, in order to control my hormones better.
I honestly can't bear many more days like yesterday. I honestly felt like throwing myself under a bus I felt so bad, then spent a good part of the evening crying on my husband's shoulder. It's no life for me (or him and my family).
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These too will pass. I had a very low few days and was getting scared again. I tried to take my advice, don't look further than half an hour at a time. I have eaten better today and don't feel queasy which really really helps.
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I really, really hope so CLKD. This nightmare has been going on for over 18 months now. Just constantly up and down, but mainly more down, and when I mean 'down' I don't just mean fed-up. It frightens me how very low I can feel. Yesterday I just lay on the sofa, barely speaking, just staring at the wall while pretending to watch TV. Couldn't bear any noise at all and actually shouted at my daughter for giggling too loudly, which I am very ashamed about :(
I do get 'good' days thank God, often quite a few of them together. I've just had a run of 16 'good' days which ended last Sunday. If I didn't have these then I think I would be in a psychiatric ward by now.
I'm sorry you've been feeling extra low. Any idea what has triggered it?
I don't know if mine was caused by my bloody spray tan, or whether my own hormones are still too all over the place. Though it 'should' have been one of my good weeks, in the run up to ovulation, when pre HRT I would have been at my best.
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Not much more I can add, but just wanted to send you a sympathetic hug. Please don't beat yourself up about feeling guilty for being cross with your daughter. We have enough to battle with our hormones without making ourselves feel even worse for things we can't control. I know it's hard, but remember, when things are tough, that they will improve. Be kind to yourself and remember you're not alone.
Take care xxxx
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I wore a patch for many years and seem to remember the guidelines were to put the patch on skin which is clean, dry but not moisturised or oiled or greased.
So I am wondering whether your creams may well have formed a barrier and the oestrogen is not getting absorbed?
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You are right scriv. The patch has to be put onto dry skin. The use of creams or oils will affect the absorption. It should say this on the patient information leaflet "The site of application must be rotated, with an interval of at least 1 week allowed between
applications to a particular site. The area selected should not be oily, damaged or irritated.
The waistline should be avoided, since tight clothing may dislodge the patch."
Are you also on anti depressants gypsy? It seems as if you would benefit from both HRT and anti-d's to be honest. I didn't find that HRT lifted my mood very much. It was great in getting rid of the hot sweats and improving skin and hair but didn't really change how I felt emotionally. Let us know what the manufacturers say.
Taz x :hug:
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Hi Taz
I just don't know what to do. I will have been on HRT for nine weeks this week and I'm still so up and down all the time. I am feeling slightly better than I did at the weekend but I still feel extremely flat and low. Everything seems pointless and it's a real effort to appear normal and interact with people at work. Basically I just want to sit on the sofa and stare at the wall.
Yet when I check back in my mood diary I have also had lots of days these last 9 weeks where I have written that I feel really well and optimistic. And I can feel like that for up to 2 weeks at a time before I crash down again then I get days of feeling absolutely awful and very low.
It's obviously my hormones causing the problems, else I would just feel like crap all the time. But I'm wondering if HRT just isn't that good at controlling the emotional roller coaster that comes with peri menopause? My GP told me that the added oestrogen would raise my emotional 'base line' and that I wouldn't dip below it. But God knows I certainly feel I have well and truly dipped below it and have scraped the bottom these last few days.
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If there is a barrier: spray tan for example: then maybe there isn't enough active ingredient getting through, so your own hormones are still over-coming the product?
However, depression can be managed. I can't remember whether you have tried anti-depressant medication :-\ (meno brain ::) ) but perhaps if you don't have side-effects to ADs, now would be the time to have a low-maitenance dose? Even with my 5mg night and morning I was quite scared over the weekend - I got low during last week quite quickly. Felt better yesterday and not too bad so far today, apart from being very tired.
If you can tolerate ADs try 8-12 months? after all, we are getting to *that* time of year [Christmas ]
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Hi CLKD
I was on ADs for nearly 3 years a long time ago when I had PND. I didn't like the way they made me feel emotionally quite numb. Though they stopped the deep depression and the anxiety. I tried sertraline and prozac but both made me feel like a robot.
Last year I tried amitriptyline for 6 months. It seemed to work but you feel quite spaced out and dreamy on it. Plus I gained a stone in weight, but that was my own doing as the amitriptyline stops you caring if you look fat.
Unfortunately because it makes you quite foggy headed I can't honestly remember if I still experienced any down days or anxiety while on it?
But to be honest feeling foggy headed and a bit dreamy is infinitely preferable to these awful lows I still seem to get.
Othwrwise I have heard that taking the Pill can completely knock your own hormones on the head and stabilise you. But when I took the Pill I still used to get PMS so I'm not so sure it would control my hormones enough. Though I could easily cope with regular PMS for a few days a month. The lows and anxieties I get now ate so much worse than any PMS I used to get.
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There are lots of ADs to try but it can be a bit of a Trial at a time when we need support: yesterday ::). I feel slightly hung-over every day but it is preferable to not being able to get out of bed or worse. DH and I have a Life together most days ;-).
The brain is an organ which we forget to support. The longer it is depressed the longer it can take to lift it. We shouldn't blame meno on everything ;) even if it's connected to hormone upheaval.
How about trying The Pill but eating every 3 hours 24/7?
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I'm willing to try anything. If I thought it was just normal depression then I'd happily take ADs. But it can't be as I can feel fine for a whole fortnight. Earlier this year I felt fine for a whole 5 weeks! So it has to be hormonal.
But I am losing faith in hormonal treatments. I would like some definite proof that the Pill WILL work. But then my gynaecologist assured me I would feel 100 times better with an oestrogen patch and I haven't done yet. Well only for a Max if 2 weeks before it all comes crashing down.
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But I am losing faith in hormonal treatments. I would like some definite proof that the Pill WILL work. But then my gynaecologist assured me I would feel 100 times better with an oestrogen patch and I haven't done yet. Well only for a Max if 2 weeks before it all comes crashing down.
But if you're applying a patch on top of a spray tan isn't that why it's not working? How long have you used it without it falling / peeling off? Are you applying it to fresh, dry skin?
GG x
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I've just read the answer to this - 9 weeks and only a few days for the Utrogestan. Still early days, particularly if it's been conflicting with the tan (which incidentally is putting a cocktail of up to 45 chemicals onto your skin, one of which is suspected as toxic). Rather than throw the baby away with the bath water, if you're insistent the HRT isn't working, why not try tweaking the dose ? Probably best to do this with your GP's say so, or at least some expert advice, but it may be worth giving it more of a chance.
GG X
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Hi GG
As soon as I got suspicious about the spray tan I reapplied a new patch onto a tiny patch of skin that hadn't been spray tanned (basically the fold of skin under my tummy apron). I did this last Thursday lunchtime and again on Sunday night. Both times my skin was clean and dry.
But I am still feeling very, very low. Though I did start the Utro on Friday night too which I understand can have a depressive effect? But when I took Utro the first time I've written in my mood diary that after the first couple of days where I felt very anxious (and I think I was just fretting at how the Utro would affect me) I was actually fine. No low mood at all and no anxiety. Infact I reported having several 'very good' days while on Utro. My mood did slump when my withdrawl bleed arrived, but that only lasted a few days.
Do you think 9 weeks is still only early days then? I upped my dose to 50mg nearly 4 weeks ago, but maybe it needs to be 75mg though that seems high to me?
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Evorel 50 took at least three months for me to have any true impact. Before then, what I thought was too much estogen was, I now believe too little . Interestingly enough, I too was ridiculously scared about taking Utrogestan and, after a few (imagined?) days of anxiety, I realised I was feeling much better than when not on it. Only problem was a definitely dip about 5 days after stopping it. I would have loved to have taken 100mg every day!
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Why did you feel that it was too much oestrogen Briony? Weere you still very up and down during those first 3 months on Evorel 50?
I was terrified of taking Utro, I started a thread about it on here but thankfully you sensible lot calmed down. After that I felt much better. I actually posted to say I was quite enjoying the Utro phase and several women replied saying they felt the same.
I'm 4 days into the Utro this time, but I honestly don't know if I'm still feeling flat because of the Utro, or whether I'm feeling so flat because my body was without any oestrogen for a week because of the spray tan stopping absorption (if that actually was the case?).
There's just too many 'don't knows' and it's driving me mad.
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Was your patch exposed to the sun at all during your holiday?
Taz x
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Yes, I was still very up and down. The anxiety made things worse as the slightest symptom seemed magnified. I think even reading about Utrogeston made me panicky. Then a few months on, I realised I preferred being on the Utrogeston - total opposite of what I had anticipated! I still have off days now, on Qlaira, but I've regained a sense of perspective, if that makes sense?
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Hi Taz
No, it was always covered up by either clothes or my bikini bottoms. But I didn't sunbathe much as it was just too hot. I did swim in the sea once or twice so not sure if salt water would have damaged my patch at all?
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Hi GRL,
The sea water will not interfere with your patch as long as it is well and truly stuck to you... my sister uses patches (can't remember which ones ::)) and she spent three week body surfing every day in New Zealand... the patch never gave her any trouble.
I'm intrigued to know what the manufacturer says as I use Estradot too... I will not be going for a spray tan before my holidays - I will be dazzling everyone with my bright white bod, complete with patch stuff safely to my butt ;D
Galadriel x
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Oh yes, I definitely recognise that feeling of the anxiety magnifying everything by a factor of 1000 ::) I totally lose all sense of perspective and convince myself of all sorts of stupid random stuff e.g. that I will be peri menopausal and having all these horrible symptoms for the rest of my life ::) That's why I know my anxiety/low mood are hormonal because I was just the same when I had PND. Lots of nonsensical thoughts and a complete loss of perspective about every day stuff.
I was just like you I think, in that even just seeing the packet of Utro in my bedside drawer made me panic. God knows what I thought it would actually do to me, for Heaven's sake. But then 5 days into taking it I realised I was feeling perfectly fine.
Thinking about it, even though I have been on HRT for nearly 9 weeks now, I have only been on the higher 50mg patch for nearly 4 weeks. It was my GP who started me on the 25mg patch. But when I saw my consultant 4 weeks ago she said that was too low and she wanted me on at least a 50mg patch as I was 'very young still' (can't tell you how nice it was to hear someone tell me that ;) ) As apparently the younger you are when you start with peri menopause then the more oestrogen you need.
So, I'm wondering if I should really discount the first 5 weeks of my HRT as the patch just wasn't strong enough to really do anything? And, I should really be thinking that I have properly been on HRT for only nearly a month and that I need to give it at least another 2 months before thinking of trying anything else?
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Hi Galadriel
I am still waiting for a reply to my email, but as soon as I get one I will post their answer on here.
I have been doing some reading on the subject, and I have seen that apparently a spray tan can interfere with absorption from morphine patches, so that would seem to indicate that it could also hinder absorption from an oestrogen patch too?
I think you could still have a spray tan, but keep your knickers on (I didn't, I had it done completely naked)) so that you would still have an untouched area of skin on your abdomen and bum on which to stick your patch.
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I was just like you I think, in that even just seeing the packet of Utro in my bedside drawer made me panic.
I've seen a couple of people say this (or similar ) recently. Why the fear over natural progesterone? I positively looked forward to it (and used some natural progesterone cream before getting my Utrogestan prescription). Is there something I'm missing?
Gypsy I do think you should give the HRT a little more time to settle and not panic. You've only been taking the Utrogestan for a matter of days and (from what I understand) HRT isn't like an aspirin that gives you an instant fix. Try to stop worrying about it, work with the dose you've been given and keep a log of how you feel. If it's not working then you can report back in detail to your doctor who will hopefully be able to recognise from the symptoms which bit will need tweaking.
GG x
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Hi GG
I think I worked myself up into a state about taking Utrogestan because I had read lost of posts on here about women reacting badly to progesterone. I have always suffered with PMS, so had visions of the Utro just making my symptoms worse. And I already felt so low and wretched that I couldn't bear the thought of taking something that would make me feel even worse.
But, basically my normal common sense had flown out of the window because of stupid anxiety causing a total lack of perspective ::)
But, actually taking the Utro was a complete non-event, and I felt such a fool for feeling so panicked about it.
I think you're absolutely right that I need to take some time out, and give the HRT chance. Like I said to Briony, it's just occurred to me that even though I have been on HRT for nearly 9 weeks, I have only been on the higher 50mg patch for just under 4 weeks. When I saw my consultant 4 weeks ago, she said the 25mg patch was too low and that I would need at least a 50mg patch.
So, really I should take the view that I have only been on proper HRT for nearly a month, which is no time at all really.
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I was just like you I think, in that even just seeing the packet of Utro in my bedside drawer made me panic.
I've seen a couple of people say this (or similar ) recently. Why the fear over natural progesterone? I positively looked forward to it (and used some natural progesterone cream before getting my Utrogestan prescription). Is there something I'm missing?
Gypsy I do think you should give the HRT a little more time to settle and not panic. You've only been taking the Utrogestan for a matter of days and (from what I understand) HRT isn't like an aspirin that gives you an instant fix. Try to stop worrying about it, work with the dose you've been given and keep a log of how you feel. If it's not working then you can report back in detail to your doctor who will hopefully be able to recognise from the symptoms which bit will need tweaking.
GG x
For me the 'panic' was due to having had bad experiences in the past with the POP, having read too much on here about less positive experiences with progesterone (even Utrogestan) and most of all, just another symptom of hormone induced anxiety. Pre HRT, anything would thrown me into a state of fear and dread.
GRL - Give it at least three months. I went straight in at 50mg Evorel (aged 42) and saw nothing positive for months. I was convinced that the weird things I was experiencing were side effects when in fact I now believe the 50mcg initial patch wassimply too low and the 'side effects' were actually symptoms of low estrogen, despite the HRT.
These last three days I have been on the lowest part of the Qlaira regime I take (10mg estrogen and then two blank days) and I have experienced palpitations and dizziness for first time in ages, along with crushing fatigue. I can't wait to start the 30mg pill tomorrow!
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I think that's good advice Briony, thank you.
It's just so strange that for the first 2.5 weeks of being on the higher 50mg dose I actually felt I was really improving. I think I posted on here about feeling stronger inside and 'fuller' again, if that makes sense?
Then the horrible low mood/anxiety came crashing back 9 days ago. Literally in the time it took to have a shower! I went in the shower feeling fine. I stepped out the shower feeling suddenly very depressed and with that horrible low level anxiety, which I'm sure you know well.
But, that could have been due to poor/zero absorption thanks to the spray tan? I'm still waiting for a reply back from the manufacturers ::)
During you first 3 months on Evorel did you feel consistently low and anxious, or did you have some 'good' days/weeks too?
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I think that's good advice Briony, thank you.
It's just so strange that for the first 2.5 weeks of being on the higher 50mg dose I actually felt I was really improving. I think I posted on here about feeling stronger inside and 'fuller' again, if that makes sense?
Then the horrible low mood/anxiety came crashing back 9 days ago. Literally in the time it took to have a shower! I went in the shower feeling fine. I stepped out the shower feeling suddenly very depressed and with that horrible low level anxiety, which I'm sure you know well.
But, that could have been due to poor/zero absorption thanks to the spray tan? I'm still waiting for a reply back from the manufacturers ::)
During you first 3 months on Evorel did you feel consistently low and anxious, or did you have some 'good' days/weeks too?
Initially I was on a high - but I think that was imagined (!). Then I had a real low as it wasn't the immediate miracle I'd anticipated. By week three I was worried as others on here seemed to have noticed a difference by then. I convinced myself my issues were therefore not hormonal, after all, and got very stressed. Luckily some great members on here put me straight!
Within a few months or so I realised that I was feeling better than I had done pre HRT. This happened once I accepted it wasn't going to be the perfect cure that would restore my mind and body to its pre all this hormonal chaos state! Realising that there was 'some' improvement, and knowing at 42 I probably needed more rather than less oestrogen, I went to the GP again and eventually ended up with a three month trial of Qlaira.
Thinking back, I definitely had low times - especially during and just after my bleed, but they were less scary/long lasting than the pre HRT bad times. Finding this site, in between, helped massively too!
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We're so similar Briony :)
Deep down I had convinced myself that HRT was my Holy Grail, and that within 3 days of wearing an oestrogen patch I would feel great. And for the first 3 days I did feel great, which was definitely psychosomatic. Then I had to start on the Utrogestan as I was already mid cycle.
But then I felt dreadfully low again, terrified the Utro would melt my brain or some such nonsense ::) Lucily the sensible ladies on here calmed me down. After that things continued okay for quite a while. Then I was very down again during my withdrawl bleed and I convinced myself that I was either on too low an oestrogen dose, or too high (my opinion changed hourly).
(As an aside, I think that unless someone else has experienced the horrible feelings of dread and fear that your hormones can create, they can't understand how desperate and confused they can make you feel. It's ironic because the reason I was recruited to do the job I do is because I am (usually) very cool headed, calm and analytical. I'm the person called in to trouble shoot and deal with the crisis ::) )
But then after a few days my mood rose again for a while, but then dipped again...and I was so disappointed as I thought that HRT would provide a slow but steady improvement in symptoms. But each time I 'dipped' I was as low as I had ever been before.
Then finally my consultant appointment came round, and she advised a higher dose. And again that seemed to work for 2-3 weeks, then bingo for the last 9 -10 days I have felt very low and anxious again. And this is nearly the longest period of time when I have stayed consistently 'low' since starting my mood diary 4 months ago. But I honestly don't know whether this is caused by the spray tan, or whether I was just due another long dip because I had been 'fine' for nearly 3 weeks?
I keep getting tiny little mood lifts which last maybe a minute, like the HRT is 'trying' to kick in, but then I feel just as low again.
Have talked to my husband, and as he's a scientist he has a very scientific view on things. He says that GPs and consultants aren't magicians and now that I'm on HRT all they can do is suggest increasing the dose, or changing the product. But they can't 'know' what will work for me. It's just going to be a process of elimination for them (and me).
I'm tempted to go back to my GP and ask to go back on the Pill. But my husband thinks I should wait at least another month. But as you know waiting while you feel like this is so hard.
can I ask why you ended up with the Pill rather than a higher dosage patch like 75mg or even 100mg?
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I could have written your post, GRL. Scarily similar - even down to the fact my partner is in the scientific world too!
You're bang on about the extreme and sudden effects of hormones on your state of mind. So different from 'regular' anxiety which I had in my 20s and was work induced. It's like a horrid fungus which permeates every part of your being. You feel trapped inside yourself.
I think, looking back, I felt that the pill would be simpler than an even larger sized patch, combined with Utrogestan. I also liked the fact Qlaira had so few non progesterone days that - hopefully - I could survive the post progesterone dip I was frequently experiencing (I wasn't allowed continuous Utrogestan as I had regular periods, though I know some doctors will bend this rule). Have you seen Pixiegirl's post about why she switched to the pill? Her consultant said that being so young, HRT wouldn't be enough to override the peri fluctuations . I think that post was in the back of my mind when I asked about Qlaira too.
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I think we must have been seperated at birth Briony ;) I also suffered with 'normal' anxiety when I started my first proper job after university. It was pretty bad. But it was nothing compared to the low mood and anxiety that arrived 18 months ago. It strikes like lightning and there's absolutely nothing I can do to control it and believe me I have tried, I really have. And I'm no shrinking violet. To do the job I do I need to be very assertive and in control. But in the face of this hormonal anxiety I seem completely helpless. You aren't going to understand unless you've had it.
I must admit I am attracted to the idea of just taking the Pill every day, and being done with it. No messing with patches and then seperate Utro. Or worrying about body lotions/spray tans and remembering to eat earlier in the evening so I can take the Utro on an empty stomach at bedtime.
I am 'still' feeling very low today. And my sleep was quite broken last night for the 2nd night in a row, which wasn't the case last time I was on the Utro phase. It made me sleepy by 9pm then. I just don't know what is going on? Some sort of pattern would be very nice. Fat chance of that ::)