Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Dandelion on May 24, 2015, 08:31:27 PM
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I was just reading Professor John Studd's website regarding antidepressants under his depression info and came across this.
Smoller and colleagues (2009) have shown a 45% increase in stroke, a 32% increase in all cause mortality, a 210% increase in fatal stroke and a 212% increase in haemorrhagic stroke in women taking antidepressants.
I have not looked into the Smoller study, but I know that Prof Stuff is a respected Professor of Gynaecology
I don't mean to alarm you, but if I am not mistaken, aren't those statistics showing a larger risk from antidepressants than from HRT above a certain age?
Anyway, all comments welcome, I just thought I would post that up to see what you all think.
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I haven't read the study but it is 6years old and as always with these things if you search enough you can find another study that contradicts the first one. Taking a low dose AD has helped me to get some balance back in my life post menopause when HRT was not an option so I think I will stick with it on the advice of my GP for the time being. What I do know is that if you are taking ADs you should not stop them suddenly whatever any study says as that can be dangerous!. The internet is a wonderful source of information but can also put doubts in our minds but as you say it will be interesting to see what others on the forum have to say.
Thorntrees
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I think this is the full report http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=773902 I found this part (under Comment) interesting
"The association between antidepressants and all-cause mortality in our study is notable because this outcome has not been widely examined in prior studies. The distribution of causes of death did not indicate any category that accounted for this excess risk. Thus, it remains unclear from our data whether antidepressants have a causal effect on mortality or are merely a marker of increased risk from other causes (eg, residual depressive symptoms) that may not have been fully controlled."
Taz x :-\
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Hi Ladies
Thanks for your posts.
So, basically, those percentages did seem quite high didn't they.
Perhaps Professor studd's text may have been quite alarmist?
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Hi Ladies
Thanks for your posts.
So, basically, those percentages did seem quite high didn't they.
Perhaps Professor studd's text may have been quite alarmist?
Percentages can be very misleading. If one person in a million has issues and this increases to 5 in a million, it's a 500% increase.....and yet such a tiny actual figure. I don't know where the data was first reported but if it first originated in the media, then take it lightly - the press are notorious for scare mongering. The best places to check studies is PubMed or the Cochrane site (which reviews studies). That said, there are a number sponsored by pharmaceutical companies that come under question.
I would still be suspicious of long term use of ADs but that's just me - I prefer natural rather than synthetic substances.
GG x
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I think context is everything too.
I never intended to go on HRT for my menopausal symptoms as I'm very into natural ways of treatment - but when everything blew up for me, HRT was the thing that worked most effectively and I can function on it.
I'm not completely comfortable taking what I'm taking but, weighing up the health risks versus my lack of ability to function and my symptoms when I wasn't on it, I've decided I need to take the risks and if it shortens my life well, so be it - I will have to accept that.
My solution in part has been to try and continue doing natural things that will also support my treatment - such as dietary changes and exercise - in the hope that I can come off the HRT as soon as I'm able to - though that might be a few years down the road. But I would like to avoid taking it long term (5+ years) if I can.
AD's can be very effective for some. For others they don't work. At the end of the day, decisions on medications are such an individual thing.
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I have experienced ADs twice. 14 years ago after being diagnosed with PND, then last year after my GP insisted I was just suffering with 'normal' depression.
Both time the ADs 'worked' but only insofar that they seemed to switch off virtually all of my emotions and turned me into a slightly dreamy robot. 14 years ago on Prozac & Setraline I was unable to ever orgasm and was unable to dream. I couldn't giggle and I couldn't cry (lost both grandparents during that time and couldn't shed a tear). I felt like a synthetic version of myself.
Last year on Amitriptyline I was able to orgasm easily but gained 14 libs in weight and lived my life in a gentle fog.
Both weren't satisfactory treatments.
I have read Prof. John Studd's research and it shows that ADs should NOT automatically be the first line of treatment for peri menopausal women suffering with hormonal depression. And that hormonal depression is something quite different to clinical depression and so needs treating very differently.
I have been taking HRT for just over 6 weeks now and I feel that it is kicking in. Importantly I am starting to feel ike ME again. The proper me. Not an anti-depressant induced synthetic version of myself.
Don't know if anyone has seen the TV trailers for the new series 'Humans' on Chanel 4, with the synthetic woman 'Sally' doing chores around the house? Well the trailer really gives me the creeps because 'Sally' is exactly how I felt when I had PND and was on ADs. I was just going through the motions very efficiently. And I could smile but it never reached my eyes. My eyes always looked flat and dead. You can see it in photos of the time :(
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I was also a bit 'zombie' like on citalopram. I only took them for four months but in that time they upset my bowels so badly I am still suffering for weeks after stopping. I followed GP instructions to the letter for withdrawal but had awful symptoms and was still having panic attacks until last week. I now feel OK and am looking at CBT for my anxiety.
I think GPs fall back on ADs too easily and it is not intended for most menopausal anxiety/depression. I also think that in 20 years time the next generation of women will say 'My God, you put up with that lack of interest/knowledge about the menopause?? How did you manager?'. I had really bad endometriosis that started in my teens but wasn't diagnosed until I was in late 20s. It was 'new' then and many GPs had no idea what I was talking about when I told them. I had to have a hysterectomy at age 40 as my bladder was stuck to my womb!! My point is that nowadays it is a condition that is well known and researched. Quite rightly as it had a massive effect on my life. Let's hope our daughters have better treatment for meno. There will be so many women over meno age soon that research will have to catch up.
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I wonder how many of these deaths are by suicide? I have taken ADs since the 1980s without which I wouldn't be here. I have a good diet, when well I can exercise regularly, I take a low-maintenance dose of which AD is helping me stay alive. Quality?
Thanks for raising the subject, always interesting to see how those who are into certain medication methods often 'talk down' others ::) and statistics can prove anything a statistician wants them to especially if they are after a Grant ;)
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The deaths seem to be from heart disease and stroke. This is a summary of the report linked above http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8408783.stm
It's difficult to work out what's the cause in a lot of cases. Depression can be linked to cardio vascular disease anyway so maybe it's the depression and not the antidepressants causing the deaths?
Taz x
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:thankyou: if I had read the thread properly I would have seen ......... :sigh:
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It's difficult to read all of the threads properly all of the time.
Taz x :foryou:
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A good book on this is Bad Science by the Guardian journalist, doctor and medical researcher Ben Goldacre. He discusses how statistics are used in a misleading way, but also how studies are dumbed down if they show results the pharmaceuticals don't want them to show (funnily studies carried out under the sponsorship of commercial interests often show different results to independent studies - is it any wonder we're cynical?). His book Bad Pharma makes even less comfortable reading.
I do believe that chemicals are bad for us and at home we've started trying to strip everything back and get as close as possible to natural products - it's an awful lot more difficult than it should be. It's made me realise how even some of the creams and potions with simple / friendly or eco names are often just a marketing ploy and little better than the next shiny bottle on the shelf. Unfortunately unless we live in rags and bathe in streams I can't see us getting anywhere near 100% on this front though and if we get close to 70-80% I'll be quite chuffed.
Like everything it's about balance and quality of life. If ADs work for you and the benefit outweighs the risk, then they're worth considering if no alternative options quite cut it for you. If you're doing lots of other stuff right to make sure your body's in the right place, then you're giving yourself the best chances of not being one of the statistics.
GG x
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Hi Ladies
Thanks for your posts.
So, basically, those percentages did seem quite high didn't they.
Perhaps Professor studd's text may have been quite alarmist?
Percentages can be very misleading. If one person in a million has issues and this increases to 5 in a million, it's a 500% increase.....and yet such a tiny actual figure. I don't know where the data was first reported but if it first originated in the media, then take it lightly - the press are notorious for scare mongering. The best places to check studies is PubMed or the Cochrane site (which reviews studies). That said, there are a number sponsored by pharmaceutical companies that come under question.
I would still be suspicious of long term use of ADs but that's just me - I prefer natural rather than synthetic substances.
GG x
I never got on with synth AD's either, I still use beta blockers and promethazine as and when, but as for ssri type drugs, I don't want to assault my body with them.
They feel more assaultive or as assaultive as amphetamines did. Same with that quetiapine they had me on for anxiety, my feet and ankles used to blow up so I couldn't walk properly by evening time.
I use 5htp now, for depression, still waiting for it to kick in. It gives amazing dreams though, some nighmarish, but very revealing and theraputic also.
Anyway, I went off at a tangent there.
I see what you mean about percentages and also about the press scaremongering. It's not just right wing press, all political leaning papers are biased.
I didn't look into the percentages, normally I take time to source other people's sources and if it's press I stop. haha
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I wonder how many of these deaths are by suicide? I have taken ADs since the 1980s without which I wouldn't be here. I have a good diet, when well I can exercise regularly, I take a low-maintenance dose of which AD is helping me stay alive. Quality?
Thanks for raising the subject, always interesting to see how those who are into certain medication methods often 'talk down' others ::) and statistics can prove anything a statistician wants them to especially if they are after a Grant ;)
Each to their own and it would be nice if everyone could respect that each person has their own way of dealing with depression, and if a person chooses to use synth AD's, just because I don't get on with them, doesn't mean other peoples choices to use them are invalid.
My trazodone made me have stronger suicidal ideation, yet others feel that their pharm AD stops their suicidal ideation and that is fine.
When I was on them, I was planning suicide, but now, even though the thoughts are still there of sui, I can step back and see them as thoughts, and I am not so 'hands-on' with making practical sui arrangements.
Hopefully as my supplement continues to work, I will feel like moving away from sui thoughts as well.
If it takes a pharm med, an antipsychotic, a supplement, a diet change, whatever, to change someone's suicidality into a more life-affirming stance, then so be it.
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The deaths seem to be from heart disease and stroke. This is a summary of the report linked above http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8408783.stm
It's difficult to work out what's the cause in a lot of cases. Depression can be linked to cardio vascular disease anyway so maybe it's the depression and not the antidepressants causing the deaths?
Taz x
I looked into a few different online literatures about depression linked to cardio vascular disease and I can see how it would make sense from a physical point of view, nothing to do with Prof Studds literature.
Low mood and also anxiety makes the cardiovascular system respond, as well as other physical systems.
My Dad was a depressed stress head, and he had a sudden aortic anneurysm.
Dad had high BP and was on BP meds.
Sometimes when I get my BP taken, the doc comments that it is high, but it goes down to normal as well. I can see why my BP goes high sometimes. I am not worried about getting an anneurysm like my Dad, cos I would start worrying about getting run over by a bus, an earthquake, cancer, or anything.
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It's difficult to read all of the threads properly all of the time.
Taz x :foryou:
I have this difficulty too, but there is some interesting stuff in this thread.
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What other 'type' of AD is there other than those that are synthesised? :-\ we are made of chemicals after all ::) and a lot of our food stuffs have chemicals to keep them from going 'off' etc.. Some chemicals can be good for us (though can't think of a single 1 right now :D)
Thanks Taz ....... ;)
I am in Love with Ben Goldacre :-* - he talks a lot of sense 8)
Geordie Girl - if you saw what might be floating in our streams/rivers/seas :-X :P - I used to swim regularly in a sandy river but I wouldn't consider it now, though 'wild' swimming is quite popular. As well as it being too cold there's too much pre-swim prep to be done ;D
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So what are you supposed to take if you develop anxiety whilst on HRT that is working well for other meno symptoms. The one AD that I tried made me sick and gave me extreme shakes. It was the most horrible 24 hours. I'm not prepared to try again as I'm sensitive to meds at the best of times.
So what's next....just get on with it I guess.
Each one to their own. My hubby is not keen for me to be on ADs but would support my choice....but if there is no choice what then.
It's just will power that gets me through some days and nothing else.
Honeybun
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Honeybun a lot of ADs have side effects which are supposed to subside over time - I've heard that it takes 6 - 8 weeks for them to kick in. I stopped taking Sertraline 50mg after I had the most severe side effects after 2 doses (1 per day). Like you I am very sensitive to meds.
In terms of other things, have you tried any alternative stuff? For eg, acupuncture, yoga, altering your diet (seeing a nutritionist to see whether you need more magnesium or B vits) or more exercise or relaxation exercises ... those are a few things that come to mind. Acupuncture and massage helped me for a long time - especially the acupuncture for anxiety - it always calmed my system down.
I feel fortunate in that the HRT I'm on now seems to be working well with the meno symptoms. But, because of my breakdown and because I want to support my body generally, I've been doing other stuff as well - like more exercise and altering my diet. I've found that exercise has definitely made a difference to how I feel - I feel so much better after doing it even if I feel dreadful beforehand.
I know it can be challenging to fit exercise in - especially if you have a busy life and you're working - but it might be worth a try. When I worked, I used to go for an early morning swim about 3 times a week. It meant getting up at the crack of dawn but it used to set me up for the day and on the days that I didn't do it, I really missed it.
Years ago, (20+) when I had panic attacks (which were not meno related) I used to do a differential relaxation exercise tape twice a day - once in the morning and once at night. That helped a lot too - you tense and release muscles in turn. My ITalk counsellor sent me a CD of relaxation tracks recently but you can download them - see the link here: http://glasgowspcmh.org.uk/downloads/audio
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I do relaxation excercise. I did have CBT but unfortunately did not like my councillor. I have numerous self help books that I read.
I try to eat really well too. The only vitamins that I take are a multi one and also fish oils.
I really don't want to try ADs again. I can't afford to take time out to get over the side effects as I am a carer for my mother. Also if anything involves being sick then it's not for me ::) I'm phobic.
I try to walk every day and I spend a lot of time gardening in the summer.
I maybe need to look at the B vitamins but ice tried such a lot of things.
At the moment it's grit my teeth and get on with things as for some reason life is busier at 54 than it probably should be.
Honeybun
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ADs are not just used to treat depression. They are also used for pain relief, I think the underlying logic being that they alter the way the pain receptors in the brain work. Some of them apparently also reduce hot flushes, they really are versatile things.
Perhaps it's not surprising that they have wider ranging impacts on the body than those which were originally intended. They may impact BP, but when there aren't many options for medication, people will always balance risks against benefits.
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What other 'type' of AD is there other than those that are synthesised? :-\ we are made of chemicals after all ::) and a lot of our food stuffs have chemicals to keep them from going 'off' etc.. Some chemicals can be good for us (though can't think of a single 1 right now :D)
A lot of our (processed) food stuffs have chemicals in , in fact there are 3000 unnecessary additives in US food (fortunately in Europe we're more stringent, until of course the TTIP bill gets around this). Additives like aspartame are found in a lot of processed food, monosodium glutamate; sodium benzoate; BHA; artificial food colourings....and many, many more. Some manufacturers have taken steps to cut these out - Pepsi are taking out aspartame but only in the US due to consumer pressure, a number of large food manufacturers are reducing colourants.
For millennia humans haven't eaten these artificial chemicals and indeed in many cases the effect of these isn't fully known. What is known however is that we've rising epidemics of obesity, heart disease, cancers and many more diseases. Diseases that just aren't prevalent in countries that eat a more natural diet and aren't exposed to artificial food and toxins.
Since late last year my girls and I have changed our diet considerably (if I'm fighting cancer, I'm going to give my body the very best chances of doing so, without overloading it with cr@p food and toxins). I've got to say we've never felt better - I've more energy, my skin's glowing and soft. The (bio-identical !) HRT has sorted out the last few niggly bits. My daugher's eczema is better than ever.
I'm on a few diet groups on Facebook and it never ceases to amaze me what rubbish some people shovel away and then expect to lose weight, or then wonder why they're feeling lethargic and lack lustre. Living off diet drinks and low fat (high sugar high salt) processed food is a recipe for disaster.
Occasionally we do need to defer to synthetic products - if we're ill and nothing else works for example - but our bodies are far better placed to cope with these if we're doing everything else right.
As for swimming in our streams, I wouldn't be too keen on jumping in the Mersey canal with all it's effluent and chemical overspill, but give me a clear mountain spring in the Swiss mountains and I'd be the first one in. :)
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What chemical overspill - isn't allowed these days, the Environment Agency are hot to trot on such issues (DH managed a sewage works ;) )
Synthetic ADs?
As for side effects, I had some horrid ones, the first being nausea. I was told that the effects would lessen in 2-6 weeks but I couldn't live with the nausea. In the 1980s/90s I tried 5 ADs before one suited me. Not completely but enough to function again. Prozac almost killed me. As did Tamoxifen. I admire anyone who can work through medication which causes nausea :-\
I found relaxation therapy useful. Starting from the toes, tensing relaxing muscle groups.
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Chemical spills do take place though CLKD. Farmers are guilty of poisoning waterways which impacts on a lot of things.
The environmental agency can't be everywhere.
Lots of wild swimming up here GG, blooming cold though. There is one swim in the hills behind us. Large pool with a high jump in. The kids love it.
Honeybun
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>wave< - when was the last chemical spill? Occasionally water courses are polluted and the EA and local water Authority are soon on the scene …….. death to fish can be anything from a sudden change in natural atmospheric conditions: we lost 5 large orfs many years ago when there was a sudden change across the county causing a drop in oxygen levels: to run-off from fields after flooding. Slurry from farms is the other problem locally, fortunately farmers don't use the quantity of 'nitrates' etc. which used to cause problems.
What was the question again ??? ::) ….. and will you be jumping into the wild pool anytime soon?
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There have been a few CLKD. One in the English Channel a couple of years ago killed 3000 birds.
Think I've got a little old for jumping in a freezing cold pool. I have done it and I know there are people my age that do regularly. We also have round the year sea swimmers here too. They are mad ::)
Honeybun
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No sense no feeling ;D
My skinny dipping days are over unless it's in Italy where it's warm.
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What chemical overspill - isn't allowed these days, the Environment Agency are hot to trot on such issues (DH managed a sewage works ;) )
Gosh CLKD - The Mersey Canal that I remember went through Chemical works, may also have been some oil refineries there as well. ::)
I'm sure the EA and local water authorities would do something about spills if they could but I suspect they've been cut back to the bone.
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Until there are spills - and certain industries HAVE TO produce clean water etc. before it can be discharged and these samples are sent to the EA - DH had to do so every 5/6 days, otherwise the Company would be closed immediately.
Things have improved in generally since God was a Lad ;). Fortunately.
Crikey that's a meander ::) ……. relaxation therapy was difficult, I couldn't find time and my mind continued racing if I sat down even with a :cat88: on my lap. The tense/release muscle exercises I could do in bed.
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Gosh CLKD - The Mersey Canal that I remember went through Chemical works, may also have been some oil refineries there as well. ::)
I'm sure the EA and local water authorities would do something about spills if they could but I suspect they've been cut back to the bone.
It's all a little too close to Ellesmere Port for my liking. Put it this way, I certainly wouldn't be drinking from it :)
As for skinny dipping, count me in ! (though not in the canal, yuk). Just make sure there's a warm dry towel and a hot toddy waiting for me when I come out. :)
GG x
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Plus snuggly pyjams to creep into ;)
Synthetic ADs as opposed to what exactly?
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Synthetic ADs as opposed to what exactly?
Not certain, but could the alternative be, less processed, more natural type things?
St Johns Wort springs to mind as an example, though that needs to be treated with respect.
This from the woman who needs 500mg of Gabapentin a day to reduce pain to a manageable level ::)
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What chemical overspill - isn't allowed these days, the Environment Agency are hot to trot on such issues (DH managed a sewage works ;) )
Synthetic ADs?
As for side effects, I had some horrid ones, the first being nausea. I was told that the effects would lessen in 2-6 weeks but I couldn't live with the nausea. In the 1980s/90s I tried 5 ADs before one suited me. Not completely but enough to function again. Prozac almost killed me. As did Tamoxifen. I admire anyone who can work through medication which causes nausea :-\
I found relaxation therapy useful. Starting from the toes, tensing relaxing muscle groups.
Hi CKLD
Sorry, bad choice of words, I meant pharm AD's and by natural I meant things like 5htp, st johns wort, although these are not called AD's they are taken for derpession
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St John's Wort is surely 'processed' in order to get a given amount each time :-\ ………
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Thanks for everyones honesty over this. I thought I was the only one with suicidal thoughts. It is important to out them. I have found Ads essential in my recovery from hormone depletion - I was so very ill 5 months ago. I have come a long way but must remember that I am still recovering from depression caused by Hormone depletion.
Thanks everyone
Sallyxx
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St John's Wort is surely 'processed' in order to get a given amount each time :-\ ………
Now you're splitting hairs :)
St johns wort is plant based, whereas something like prozac, is chemical based.
Hope that is clearer.
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Thanks for everyones honesty over this. I thought I was the only one with suicidal thoughts. It is important to out them. I have found Ads essential in my recovery from hormone depletion - I was so very ill 5 months ago. I have come a long way but must remember that I am still recovering from depression caused by Hormone depletion.
Thanks everyone
Sallyxx
Hi Sally
I am glad you are not suffering suicidal thoughts anymore and that your meds are helping you.
Some people do feel helped by pharmecutical meds, and that's ok.
Are you on hrt?
I don't think there is many cases where hrt is contra-indicated, even though the doctors think there are, there is new Data now on the risks of hrt, not as bad as were previously thought of.
Some of my GP's refused hrt patches due to my migraine auras, but Dr Currie helped me.
The articles on this site are a good starting point.
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Everything is chemical whether it's plant based or ….. because once in the hands of the Chem. Labs. it has to be synthesised in order to deliver the 'same' amount each dose in order to pass the Regulators! Most of me is chemical based :D ……. apparently :-X
SallyG, I didn't want to die but to sleep until the pain went away. Anxiety and depression took over and I thought I would never lift my head from the settee again :'( but I'm still here >wave<.
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Everything is chemical whether it's plant based or ….. because once in the hands of the Chem. Labs. it has to be synthesised in order to deliver the 'same' amount each dose in order to pass the Regulators! Most of me is chemical based :D ……. apparently :-X
SallyG, I didn't want to die but to sleep until the pain went away. Anxiety and depression took over and I thought I would never lift my head from the settee again :'( but I'm still here >wave<.
When I first posted, I was just trying to distiguish the difference between pharm AD's and natural AD's whether or not natural depression supplements have been in the lab or not. Maybe I made a bad choice of words, but that's all I meant.