Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => Personal Experiences => Topic started by: GypsyRoseLee on April 29, 2015, 07:46:05 AM
-
I jus feel like crying. I finished my Utrogestan a week ago and I was really looking forward to the 'patch only' part of my cycle.
Well I am on day 6 of just wearing a patch and I have just felt worse. Had awful insomnia Sunday night. And last night it happened again. 2 nights in 3 days. This has never happened before. I feel wretched.
I thought oestrogen was meant to help you sleep and to make you feel better?
At my wit's end with this.
-
Hi
I haven't had a decent night sleep for years!
Going through a nasty divorce, running my own business and all of this really has taken its toll >:(
One day I think it will all be back to normal........yeah right! ;D Im not on HRT....just a personal preference....but I know the work load and stress over the years haven't helped me :(
Liz xx
-
I'm not on HRT but do go through stages where I can't sleep for days at a time. Just rest as much as you can and try to eat properly. You will sleep when your body needs to, try not to worry.
-
I really sympathise with you, I had a terrible night last night. I must say though in general I tend to sleep better when I'm on the Utrogestan, (hope I've not just jinxed myself)!
Try to pinch a little nap when ever you can.
xXx
-
It could be the " comedown" after finishing the progesterone maybe ! :-\
A few days after progesterone stops bleed starts so it could be slight pmt symptoms you are experiencing. As others have said keep hydration up and rest when you can.x
-
Thanks everyone. I felt great on the Utro and my sleep was really good.
Feel physically very drained and shaky today. Will try to drink but am at work so can't rest really.
I assumed that it would be the oestrogen that helped me sleep?
Have finished my bleed now, so could I still be 'coming down' off the Utro, as I haven't taken it for 6 days now.
-
Its usually the utrogestron that makels people sleepy,progesterone supposed to be the calming hormone.
-
That's news to me! I thought oestrogen was meant to make you feel calmer and happier and your mood more stable?
Was effect is oestrogen meant to have then? Just on the Estradot 25mg patch I feel jittery and wired and not in a nice way.
-
Hi GypsyRose Lee and Ladies
So sorry to hear you are struggling to sleep, it seems there are so many of us suffering like this, what with the anxiety, mood swings, flushes and so on and on and on...
I also had a rubbish sleep last night, infact over the last few nights.. It is such a horrible feeling, so sending much sympathy. As Sparkle says it then doesn't help at all with the anxiety. I had my oestrogen patch increased to 75mg last week and now wonder if it's too much, my anxiety has been worse and I too have felt jittery, my heart thumping like the clappers. I now have no clue as to what's going on..my own hormones must be doing their own thing along side the HRT - I now have the Mirena for the progesterone part as I couldn't tolerate the 12 day cycle of Utrogestan - I got really down, tearful and low. I have no idea really what to do - last week the meno clinic were nice but seemed reluctant to make a correlation between my anxiety and ovarian decline...whaaaaat?? Am just completely at a loss now, as the other ladies suggest I just try to be kind to myself and to just get through an hour at a time if need be....Sorry GypsyRoseLee, not a lot of help but am sending much empathy and hugs to all. Took a BBlocker today - it's helped a bit and will get the Kalms out tonight to see if they help.
Best Wishes for a better night for all
Tealady xxx
-
Lack of sleep can be debilitating. It's used as a torture method for a reason :-\ :'(
-
Hello GypsyRoseLee.
So sorry that you are suffering.
I am on 50 mcg patches and although my sleep is okay I find I am a nervous wreck during the day! Like many ladies and perhaps some professionals too, I am confused as to which hormone is supposed to make us feel calmer ( if I knew I'd take it by the bucket load!).
Sorry I don't have any answers but you have my sympathy and you are not alone.
Take care.
K.
-
Everyone is so kind, thank you :)
I'm still so shocked at how badly I can sleep nowadays. I used to be a really good sleeper.
Sparkle - yes, not sleeping just seems to ramp up my anxiety ten fold. Then you start of vicious cycle of getting anxious about not sleeping etc.
Feel headachy and my hands feel cold all the time today. It's because I feel so tired.
But the really weird thing (among so many weird things) is that my mood isn't as low and frankly despairing as it normally is after a night of insomnia? Yes, I feel drained and my head aches but inside I don't feel as desperate and anxious as I have felt in the past?
Maybe this is a tiny sign that the HRT is starting to take hold? Or am I just clutching at straws ::) It's only been 3 weeks on HRT for me, but have read plenty of posts from ladies who say their sleep/mood improved a lot within a week. This scares me a bit as I'm so worried that maybe HRT won't 'cure' my symptoms.
-
We do get analytical too ::) ………
I didn't sleep well for years. Busy responsible job, parental history niggling - until 1 night in 1979/80, I thought 'well not sleeping well hasn't killed me yet' and from then on, apart from a few nights a year, I've slept much better. The nights I don't sleep straight away or wake earlier than I would like, I read, play music, make a cuppa ……. it leaves me feeling tired but usually I am able to function.
It's the racing brain that gets to me, things I can't tackle in the early hours but by morning, I've forgotten what I ought to be doing :-X
-
Hi GypsyRoselee,
I really know what you are going through. The progesterone can have a sedative effect. I thought I may be allergic or intolerant to it because of my experience last year. But this time around on a different HRT I was ok on the combined part so far !! ( with progesterone ) but once I had finished it within 2 days of taking oestrogen only I was an exhausted emotional ,confused wreck.
The menopause nurse specialist said I am not 'allergic or intolerant to progesterone because my symptoms started after I finished it and at the start of the new pack. I didn't sleep as I was hot etc. Apparently it is your hormones kicking in and PMT. Like you I thought that I would feel good on only oestrogen, but apparently some ladies react strongly to the sequential HRT and fair better on the combined because it is a continuous dose.
Anyway I didn't feel better until day 6/7 on the oestrogen only bit. I was at my wits end too and nearly stopped taking it . Hopefully your ( and my!!) hormones will eventually adjust and even out. Although I get the feeling that I may have to suffer PMT every month . I am wondering if I need a higher dose of oestrogen, to give me a boost. Who knows??
It's so frustrating when you dip so badly. Sometimes just knowing you are going to have a rough couple of days can help as it's not such a shock when it comes . Stick with it and see how long it lasts and when on the regime it happens and if its regular you can at least be prepared. I felt nauseous this morning on second week of new pack and knackered this afternoon. But at least I can think on HRT which I couldn't before I was taking it. You need to just do the minimum and forget anything else . Look after yourself. You will feel better soon .I had insomnia before HRT , so it may be just a blip.
Keep us informed .
Peppermintyxx
-
Tealady - it's awful isn't it.
I'm wondering if my Estradot 25mg isn't enough, but then there's you feeling like you're on too much at 75mg.
I blame myself a lot because I sort of convinced myself that wearing an oestrogen patch would have magical properties and within a few days I would feel 100% normal again. Stupid of me, really. But still so crushingly disappointing.
Bizarrely I really enjoyed the last 7 days of my Utro phase. Slept really well and mood much better and stable. And I'd been TERRIFIED about taking it. Seems like it's the Estradot only phase which I need to be terrified of instead.
Like you though I think my own hormones must also be doing their own stuff. Before HRT for the last few months I felt very low and anxious during my period and for a few days afterwards. Which would correlate to me starting to feel bad again when my bleed started on Saturday.
Lots of hugs to you x
-
Thanks pepperminty :)
I'm on day 7 of patch only, so hopefully will start to improve shortly. I have noticed though that even though I barely slept last night, my mood isn't as despairing and desperate as I would usually feel after zero sleep. So maybe the HRT is starting to flex it's muscles?
I see my consultant next month. Oddly enough she did approve of combined HRT for me, even though I still have periods. Said it wasn't the 'norm' but wouldn't have a problem with me taking it if I reacted well to progesterone (though we assumed I wouldn't because have always suffered with PMS etc).
By the time I see her I will be finishing my next Utro phase, and if I feel as good again on it I will mention it to her, and see what she says.
I just hate this rollercoaster. Never knowing when you're going to dip or rise. I feel so helpless in the face of it.
-
The sleep or not sleeping well issue has been going on for me for a couple of years and it's awful. I just want to add that I am of the mind that it is lack of progesterone that causes this issue, or more accurately the ratio of progesterone and estrogen being 'out'. I am not on HRT but presume that eventually the HRT will over-ride your own hormones and get the balance right - or at least that's what is supposed to happen I think - but logically, in perimenopause the hormones are up and down and getting balanced, whether with HRT or not might take a while once you add or change something in your life, either medication or otherwise.
It's a complete marathon of a balancing act. Hang in there, things will get better. Keep noticing and learning what's happening for you. I wish there was a quick fix and it might be that things do settle soon for you, if not, keep the faith that they will x
-
Also wanted to add that I was told by a menopause doctor recently that we actually need very little estrogen to keep our bones and heart healthy and that most of the symptoms we experience are due to the ups and downs and the ratio's being out of kilter. I don't know if you have any idea of whether you are low in estrogen or have symptoms of hot flushes or vaginal dryness but it might be that you are still producing enough estrogen at times and the HRT is swinging the balance too far??
-
That's interesting to read Brightlight.
I've never had a hot flush (but neither did my Mum) and haven't had a problem with vaginal dryness yet.
I'm only 3 weeks into HRT so it is very early days. I'm hoping that the HRT will start to flex its muscles soon and override my own hormonal fluctuations.
My GP assured me it would. But he also assured me it would cure the insomnia and that certainly hasn't happened yet.
I have been battling with these mood swings and poor sleep for well over a year now. I just want some continuity and confidence that I am going to sleep.
-
Sounds like you need to just hang in there and let your body adjust - here's hoping you get your wish very soon and the sleep improves. It's a horrible symptom and I can empathise with the lack of continuity in how you feel, it's really annoying. I haven't really chilled out about the changes yet ;)
-
Thanks Brightlight. I guess I just need to be patient, but it's so hard. I am the least patient person ever and I'm just so desperate for some mood stability and quality of life again.
Can I ask why you haven't tried HRT for your symptoms?
-
When I am 'out of kilter' for any reason outside of my 'norm.', my brain immediately kicks in with 'what if I never feel normal again, what if this continues?' :'(
-
It might be that you are one of the women who feel much better on progesterone. We did have a member (Bette ) who took the mini pill for years along side HRT. She just felt so much better and relaxed on that regime, so it's not that unusual.
Maybe start a new topic and you will get specific answers on whether some feel better with constant progesterone.
I was put on a conti regime in my early 50s, although it's not the norm my GP thought I would do better as I was having constant breakthrough bleeding on sequi. I was not at all sure as I had read on the forum that you had to be one year bleed free or over 55. I emailed Dr Currie and she assured me that it was perfectly fine to move onto a conti at my age. It's not a rule that's written in stone it would seem.
Perhaps you will be able to discuss other options with your GP as sometimes it takes some tweaking before we get it right. It's rare to settle on the first HRT you take.
Honeyb
X
-
Yes that's just how I start to think CLKD. I catastrophise my symptoms all the time. I annoy myself so much.
-
Thanks honey bun. I willention it to my GP tmrw (need a repeat HRT script) and will mention to my consultant next month too.
-
Hi GypsyRoseLee,
I totally know what you mean when you say "even though I barely slept last night, my mood isn't as despairing and desperate as I would usually feel after zero sleep. So maybe the HRT is starting to flex it's muscles?" I feel exactly the same. So when I am disappearing , I need to remember that point to help me through. I am unsure as to whether moving up a dose of oestrogen with help , but it is early days. Lets hope that the progesterone isn't the bad guy here for us both, and that with tweaking it will sort itself eventually. It is the roller coater of emotions that's the killer. Lets hope you will feel better tomorrow . I am glad you are seeing a specialist as my GP is hopeless/ clueless. I think I may ask to be referred to a clinic as the waiting list is long and I can always cancel if my symptoms improve by the time I get an appointment date! Stay strong and keep us informed !! Perhaps we need to be on conti , but I think they wouldn't let me at 48 and still having irregular periods.
Pepperminty xx
-
Hi pepperminty. I feel a little bit better tonight. Had aong chat with my Mum which has made me feel better and more positive.
Also just taken a Kalms Night, and will take another just before bed. They've worked for me before, so fingers crossed.
I'm glad you understand what I'm trying to explain. Even though I feel physically drained and head ache, my mind feels quite alert and I feel more on edge rather than despairing (as I normally would after no sleep).
I haven't experienced this feeling before, so I'm hoping this is a positive sign that the HRT is kicking in?
As regards taking continuous prog, bothy consultant and a locum consultant would have been happy for me to take combined HRT, despite me being 44 and still having regular periods.
I would definitely encourage you to visit a clinic. The gynaecologist know so much more than GPs. Even if you feel better before you go it's worth it. I felt better before finally getting my first appointment so refused the HRT offered. Just 10 days later my mood really dipped and the anxiety was back. Then I couldn't get another appointment for 5 months!
-
Thanks Brightlight. I guess I just need to be patient, but it's so hard. I am the least patient person ever and I'm just so desperate for some mood stability and quality of life again.
Can I ask why you haven't tried HRT for your symptoms?
I haven't felt clear enough that my symptoms are all hormone related, though I'm pretty sure the sleep issue is. So far things that were really difficult to deal with have come and gone for me and I'm left with minor things that at the moment I can manage. I'm looking into some herbal medicine for the sleep issue and hope that might help.
-
Hi GypsyRoseLee,
I think I will ask to be referred to the meno clinic , as you say better to be safe than sorry. I hardly slept last night and feel awful this morning but mind still clear like yourself. I will monitor how I feel on the progesterone phase in a week and if I feel good maybe I need the combined as you say. I do feel a little teary , but it's controllable !! Feel a little nauseous , I hate that when I am tired. Maybe it will improve as the morning goes on. Funny I had absolutely no idea about the menopause before I started it. I also have developed very sweaty palms for some reason? Shame that isn't the only symptom!!
Peppermintyxx
-
Morning pepperminty
Well I tooky second Kalms Nigjt, had a glass of warm milk and took myself off to bed feeling tired. Read for a few minutes then switched off the light, quite confident I would sleep.
It took a while to drop off, then just as I was dropping to sleep my body gave a huge jolt, strong enough to knock my book off the bed.
That was the end of me trying to sleep naturally. Tried for another hour and a half to drop off. Gave in at 1.30am and dejectedly took 10mg of Amitriptyline (still have a stash from when I stopped taking them last year). Fell asleep with half an hour.
Maybe this is what I have to do? Take HRT but also 10mg of Amitriptyline to sleep.
Very disappointed though as I thought HRT would cure the insomnia by itself. And if I take the Amitriptyline every night I don't know if the HRT is kicking in, especially as Amitriptyline does sedate you slightly in the day ( though not sue how much at only 10mg).
Like you, my mind feels clear and focused this morning but mood is very flat. No joy. No pleasure at the thought of holiday next month. I just feel 'functional' not 'human'.
If this continues right through just my Estradot stage then zI notice an improvement with the Utro I will mention it to my consultant when I see them in 2.5 weeks and see what they say about taking combined HRT.
-
Hi GypsyRoseLee,
It's definitely a Mine Field. It's just knowing how to dodge the mines!!
Thank goodness you eventually fell asleep with the meds. But as you say that it is then difficult to tell what is working.
We are both on the second month I believe so there is still a chance that it can even itself out and improve. I have taken your advice and emailed my GP to ask to be referred to the meno clinic. And I have asked for another prescription for Femeston 1/10. They probably think I am mad as I said last week I was going to stop taking them !!
I haven't a clue what symptoms are going to crop up day by day. I can manage all of them , except for sleep deprivation and mood swings ( the severe ones that is ). I hope that by month 3 all our side effects are ironed out!! Or that if needs be, the combined one is better for us as its more constant. I probably wont get an appointment for 3 months though as the waiting list is so long.
Hopefully you will feel better in a few days and your holiday excitement will kick in. Maybe getting away from it all will be the tonic you need?
I am trying to remind myself that it is not abnormal for it to take a while before you find the right HRT and dosage . I am actually a very positive person normally , but it's hard when you are controlled by your hormones , in such a dramatic way and feeling so crap!
Lets hope that we both see an improvement on the progesterone part this month again .
Keep strong and remember that you have had some good days .
pepperminty xx
-
Thanks pepperminty, your post made me laugh.
It is like a minefield and you're expected to navigate it wearing a bloody blindfold.
I started my HRT mid cycle, so have only been on it 3 weeks today and have just finished my withdrawl bleed. So am technically on my first 'proper' full cycle, but really it feels like my second. We'll have to hold each other's hands as we walk through this minefield again and see if we don't make a better job of it second time around ;)
Have spoken to a few people who said that it definitely took 'months' rather than 'weeks' for the HRT to fully settle in. Maybe the posts I've read on here saying it only took a week or two are the exception rather than the rule? Also I think lots of women mainly take HRT for the hot flashes and aches and pains, and maybe it does get to work on those physical symptoms much quicker?
But I've never had a hot flash or any aches or pains yet. With me it's all about the awful mood swings laced with anxiety and crappy sleep. I'm really hoping that it just takes longer for the HRT to get to work on these psychological symptoms. Like you I would very much prefer to be dealing with the hot flashes and aches and pains rather than this awful anxiety/low mood.
I've had quite a bad headache every day since my bleed started last Saturday. But it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Yet the mood swings and anxiety really scare me and just drag me down. I HATE feeling so overwhelmed by them and so helpless to control them.
I am glad you have requested an appointment at a meno clinic. I got my first appointment through in 3 weeks, so you might be lucky. Then again, I had to wait 5 months for my next one though. And if it turns out that we're one of the few oddballs who actually prefer progesterone, then so be it and we'll take combined HRT. I have started another thread asking if anyone else prefers the prog' phase of their sequi HRT and if they swapped to combi as a result. That should make for interesting reading.
To be frank, right now I would drink hot rat's piss if it would stop these low moods and anxiety and insomnia :-\
-
Why does the body do that jumping thing: I step up or off a pavement ::). Such a :o jolt sometimes
Stop worrying about not being able to sleep. Easier said than done but it worked for me. My routine is a hot bubble bath with cuppa and Very Good Book, into bed and read or do crosswords. Once I begin to feel drowsy I lay down and if the Racing Brain stays quiet I sleep. Otherwise >:( ……….
Then I read ……….
-
Thanks GypsyRoseLee,
I have just stopped laughing (almost)after reading your post .
I have got back from Pets Are Us with a rat, as I'm so desperate like yourself !! Anything's worth a go!!
I am exactly the same , its the exhaustion and inability to cope. We are probably a bit too optimistic in terms of how long it may take , we could eventually be lucky?
My periods were a bit hit and miss , so I started my first pack when they should have started , but didn't.
I am completely knackered today, although have managed to do the housework!!
We sound very similar in terms of HRT problems I agree.
Can't wait to see the thread on progesterone!! Lets hope there are some good news stories regarding it!!
I am 3 days off the progesterone bit , I do hope that I feel ok on them , I don't mind being the oddball if I feel ok !!
Pepperminty xx
-
That's good advice CLKD. I am trying to be more pragmatic about the sleep issue. If I don't sleep it's not the end of the world and life doesn't grind to a halt. I need to stop getting so panicky about it, I know.
-
Sounds like I'm about 7 days behind you on my cycle. Bizarrely I am looking forward to taking the Utro, considering how terrified I was of taking it for the first time a few weeks ago ::)
I think we need to give it at least 3 months before deciding whether it has 'worked' or not. I know one lady on here, Galadriel I think, said it took about 10 weeks for her moods/anxiety to disappear. She very nearly didn't bother buying her third pack of HRT but is so glad she stuck with it.
Last year when I started taking Amitriptyline (before I suspected my anxiety and low mood were hormonal) it took about 11-12 weeks for it to fully take effect. Every day for those 11 weeks I was constantly assessing how I felt and did I feel better worse. Mood was all over the place. Anxiety rising and falling. Sleep was better almost from day one though, I must say.
Then finally I realised it had been 'a while' since I had felt anxious/low.
I expect it will be the same with HRT, especially as we're taking it to control mood/anxiety too.
-
Hi I agree , I am also taking it for fatigue , which I get whether I have slept or not unfortunately. I did have more energy last year when I took prempac , which is a stronger dose of oestrogen , but I did react badly on that progesterone, so I stopped it. Perhaps that will take time to go as well. But funny thing is I feel more tired than I did on the first months pack and that was the same before. I don't know what this means if anything? Lets give it the 3 months at least.
It does help to get it off ones chest and I think it is human nature to question things and try to find solutions and patterns/answers . I think one has to go through this and eventually you come out the other side .
You can't bypass unfortunately. If you could I'd gladly take the bypass . But for now I am on the M1 desperately clinging onto the steering wheel , hoping that the brakes don't fail!!
Pepperminty xx
-
I think it would be more helpful if we were told categorically by GPs not to expect any improvement for at least 10-12 weeks. Even if secretly the GPs knew that the effects could kick in way before that.
That way you wouldn't be constantly assessing yourself in the first few weeks and constantly feeling disappointed and worried. I am sure it is totally counter productive and you just tie yourself in knots.
It's strange that you're again feeling more tired on this second pack, unless it's just your body adjusting? As in you have to go down a bit before going up and up? I know this can happen with ADs in that you often feel worse for the first few weeks while they take over your brain chemistry.
Curiously, I am feeling quite a bit brighter and more positive since about 4.15 pm today? That's how rapidly my mood can change in that I can pin point it almost to the minute. Bizarre.
I wonder if my low mood/anxiety were caused by the come down off the Utro? And then further damage was done by my withdrawl bleed, as for the last year I have noticed that my mood/anxiety worsened as my period started and continued until about 2 days after period finished. This would tie in with this month on HRT, as my bleed finished on Tuesday and now 2 days later I can feel my mood rising?
But then THAT would mean that I am now responding well to my own natural rise in oestrogen + the oestrogen in my patch. So does THAT mean I could perhaps do with a higher dosage of oestrogen patch (currently only on Estradot 25mg) so I am not so badly affected by the come down off the Utro + the real dip in mood during my bleed???
Aaaarrrrggghhhhhhhhh??????????????
Answers! I need so many answers to so many questions. I wish I had married a gynaecologist ;D
-
Ha, you are assuming that the Gp's know what they are talking about when it comes to HRT. Mine told me last year it wasn't possible to have side effects on the progesterone !! I was floored at that and felt like I was a freak.
I agree that they seem to dish it out without any real guidance , which is so important. We all seem to be flying in the dark.
I also wondered do I need more oestrogen??
There doesn't seem to be any consistent management and advice with HRT by health professionals for those who need it unless you are so far down the line you are desperate and then have to wait for weeks if not longer.
I think the nurse specialist in menopause /HRT,that I spoke to is married to the chief gyny' at the hospital. She sounded happy, maybe that's the answer!!???
Keep me posted !!
peppermintyxx
-
Hmmm, something else I have just thought of too. For the last 10 days I have been wearing my patch on my bum. But at lunchtime I put my new one on my stomach. I wonder if that has any bearing on my mood rising from about 4-ish?
It must be so handy being married to a gynaecologist. Like being married to a chef or hairdresser ;)
-
It's strange how maybe something like that can make a difference . Maybe it's getting there faster on the stomach??.
Just don't ask the gynaecologist to cook dinner or the hair dresser to- it could get very confusing !!
-
I was the same when first taking ADs. Would it work, would I feel worse :-\, my GP told me that one AD had no known side-effects: well, it did have and after 3 days I didn't dare take any more. It was new to the Market. Now many people particularly State side are suing the manufacturers!
When hungry I don't always recognise symptoms so worry that if I eat I'll feel worse :-\ :-X ….. :'(
If I wake in the night it's to see if I feel sick. Or because I've had busy dreams. Or ……. then my brain gets going >:( if I feel OK then I lay quietly, listening to the noises around the house or DH's breathing. Eventually I drop off again.
-
CLKD the very first sertraline tablet I took caused me to have insomnia that night for the very first time, ever. After the 2nd tablet I had my first ever panic attack.
I stuck it out for 25 more days but my anxiety was much, much worse. I woke my hubby in the night to tell him I wanted to die. If I had stayed on it any longer I dread to think what I might have done.
Went back to my GP who admitted that sometimes sertraline can dramatically increase anxiety in some people. I went on Patient UK and found posts from hundreds of people who had suffered in a similar way within hours of taking sertraline.
-
Not sure pepperminty? Plenty of people wear it on their bum and say it's fine. It just seems a coincidence? But I am 2 days post bleed and my mood would always start to rise at this time before I started HRT.