Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: Mich12 on April 21, 2015, 09:30:09 PM
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Hi everyone,
Well my doctor called and said the urine culture didn't grow anything so I have no infection. I have been on antibiotics for almost two weeks for nothing. I have had microscopic blood in my urine though too so she wants me to see the urologist and I do so tomorrow. What can I expect at the urologist's office? I sort of hope he begins to do tests right then and there as I get so anxious waiting. :P
My bladder STILL hurts too. I will feel better for a day or two and then it hurts real bad. It feels as if I always have to go to the bathroom too.
My estrogen also showed me to have 'graduated' from perimeno to full menopause! :o She did an estridol test and it showed my estrogen to be very low and menopausal she said. I thought I had a period in January - just a day or two of light spotting - brown blood. Maybe that was NOT a period. I am not convinced my periods have been gone for a full year and isn't that 'the rule' - no periods for a year equal full menopause? I maybe had 3 periods this past year but they were just a day or two of light brown spotting.
So now I am scared about my bladder...oh my anxious mind is going all over and I am convinced I have bladder cancer. ???
Thank you for listening. :)
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Mich - the symptoms you are describing are typical of vaginal atrophy or dryness. My own atrophy began with me having bladder pain and repeated cystitis type infections which, when cultured, showed no infection but just microscopic blood and white blood cells. I had a cystoscopy which is a small camera inserted into the bladder to rule out anything wrong with the bladder itself but this is just a precaution. Once I was pescribed topical oestrogen in the form of vagifem then the bladder pain and infection-like feelings disappeared. Let us know how you get on.
Taz x
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Mich - the symptoms you are describing are typical of vaginal atrophy or dryness. My own atrophy began with me having bladder pain and repeated cystitis type infections which, when cultured, showed no infection but just microscopic blood and white blood cells. I had a cystoscopy which is a small camera inserted into the bladder to rule out anything wrong with the bladder itself but this is just a precaution. Once I was pescribed topical oestrogen in the form of vagifem then the bladder pain and infection-like feelings disappeared. Let us know how you get on.
Taz x
Hi Taz,
Thank you so much for your reply, I appreciate it! :) How long did it take before the Vagifem began to relieve your symptoms? It seemed to help me so much with the yeast infections I was getting but my bladder seems worse since I've been on the Vagifem. I've only been on the Vagifem for a couple months so maybe it just takes longer?
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If vagifem doesn't work ......and you are told you don't have a UTIS but feel like you do.....I can almost guarantee you do have one......I am under a London Professor who treats bladder wall infections where an infection is embedded in the bladder wall and takes a hold and conventional testing misses the infection......and the reason we are in the state we are with UTIs is because a. We are treating them with to short a dose that is also to low. b. The nightly antibiotic is increasing the problem not helping it....just allowing the bug to become stronger. c. GPs are giving out antibiotics without even knowing its the right one.....and finally NHS UTI testing is almost pointless as it is such a quick turn around and so many bugs are being missed.
The Professor I am under will be releasing a paper sometime soonish and the way UTIs are being treated at present will need to be changed the antibiotic resistant problems are being caused by the way our gps are prescribing...........however his treatment is not for all....but when you get to the state some of the ladies are in it really is last chance saloon and some of them have three/four infections at a time that where all missed with the testing. He is a microbiologist so understands far more than a urolologist and he is 100% against Cystoscopy's just cause more problems for many and the pain clinic I am under in London the NHNN told me to go to The Professor as there words "if anyone can get you bladder better it is him" and they also said do not have a Cystoscopy. So food for thought.
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I had the same experience as Taz. I suffered with bladder discomfort (and like you had microscopic bleeding) for nine months last year - it felt like a UTI but I knew it wasn't. The symptoms were comparable to those of Interstitial Cystitis. I asked my GP if I could try Vagifem and it disappeared within six weeks. You say you had yeast infections - well these can also cause bladder symptoms that mimic a UTI. But if Vagifem seems to be making things worse there are alternatives - the Estring gets a good press - Gynest cream made my bladder burn like crazy but a lot of ladies on here report success with it.
I've recently had a nasty UTI and despite the antibiotics my bladder is still 'twingeing' slightly, although it has improved. I agree with Maryjane that three day antibiotic therapy is inadequate - years ago they used to prescribe a whole bottle full! Anyway someone on this forum recommended D-mannose which I've been trying - I'm not sure whether it's helping or not to be honest but it might be worth a shot? If you had bladder cancer rest assured you would be experiencing more than microscopic bleeding. The Urologist will almost certainly recommend a cystoscopy. They are uncomfortable but not painful and will help to put your mind at rest.
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Taz and Morwenna - out of interest, please would you tell us whether you still had red and/or white blood cells in your urine after using Vagifem for a while, or did the Vagifem stop that?
Mich - I was the same as Taz and Morwenna. I now use Estriol cream for vaginal atrophy and my bladder feels OK (no longer the desire to wee all the time!). Maybe you could try Estriol cream - Vagifem did not suit me.
Did you actually have swabs taken that showed you had a yeast infection? I was treated for thrush, but when I eventually asked the GP to take a swab because it didn't feel like thrush to me, and Canesten cream made it worse, the results were negative. My problem all along was still "just" vaginal atrophy now showing itself as severe soreness.
Hope all goes well with the cystoscopy and please let us know how you get on.
Jenna x
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I have had the same experience - blood in my urine and horrid ongoing burning but no infection detected. I also had swobs taken and no thrush or BV was detected.
Maryjane - I think it is very interesting to hear about your specialists approach and it does sound as though the more conventional ways the NHS are treating bladder issues need a serious review. So many treatments seem to be 'stuck in a rut' or the NHS still pursues the cheapest option which ultimately costs more. Are you seeing this specialist on a private basis or can anyone be referred under the NHS?
Mich12 - Whilst Maryjane has clearly found someone who is approaching the issue in a more 'in depth' way and I understand the point that a cystoscopy may not always be a good idea, however, I had a cystoscopy and it did give me peace of mind as it ruled out anything sinister. I was told I probably had interstitial cystitis - a diagnosis I find rather unhelpful as there doesn't seem to be that much they can do!!! If in fact all those suffering with these types of symptoms have underlying infections, as Maryjane's Specialist suggests, then hopefully newer treatments will help thousands of people with this very unpleasant problem. I have always thought that the imbalance caused by dryness around the vaginal area must harbour more bacteria so make us prone to infection. Constant hot flushes and night sweats also create an environment that encourages bacteria.
I was told that local oestrogen could help and indeed for me it improved things but the Estring worked best as it gives a higher dose of oestrogen - the newer low dose Vagifem twice a week is clearly not enough. My problem with the Estring was it gave me bouts of thrush which of course can aggravate things and I think it ran out of oestrogen at least 2 weeks before the end of the 3 month life before you change it. Since I went back on full systemic HRT things have really improved and I feel this has restored the natural balance around my vaginal area.
I would see the urologist and have the usual tests for reassurance. They also scanned my kidneys alongside the cystoscopy so I came away knowing there wasn't anything bad going on. Reading your other posts I do think you should consider full systemic HRT - you can always stop using it if you don't like it. HRt could improve libido and many other things so do read up more about this and discuss it with your doctor. If you do try HRt I would suggest trying Femoston 1/10 first as the progesterone is kinder and well tolerated by many women.
Try not to worry - many of us have been down this road and we are here to support you. DG x
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It is more likely to be vaginal atrophy. Your GP should have immediately prescribed medication because then you will get relief. I suggest that you read our topics about VA on here and ring the Surgery requesting treatment.
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Hi Ladies
I have had very similar problems- had a cystoscopy last summer which revealed a low grade infection imbedded in bladder wall and was given a course of anti biotics for 6 weeks which seemed to improve things for a while. However, I am not convinced it is completely gone and am reluctant to have another cystoscopy.
I do think that Atrophy has so much to do with it and the ongoing dryness makes for a perfect environment for those little bugs to take hold. I too have bladder pain now and again but am keeping it under control for the moment by using a water based lubricant daily (Yes, is the best I've found) and drinking plenty ( which obviously means more trips to the loo, but hopefully helps flush out any nasties). Not a perfect fix but definitely helping for the moment.
One of the most horrid side effects of this meno journey but reassuring to have this site and know we are not alone.
W x
W xx
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Treatment for VA is usually every night for 2 weeks then twice weekly - if it keeps the nasty symptoms at bay then why not try it. I could not have continued with the symptoms of 'razor blades up there' :-\
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I see him privately but yes he can be seen on the NHS a athe Whittington Hospital he is part of UCL as well.
He is strongly against Cystoscopy's because they more often than not transfer more infection that is in there, and he checks your P every time for cancer and he said out of 4000 Cystoscopy's that where done only one showed a cancer, and you still can't detect some of the rare cancers with a biopsy anyway.
Also if the vagifem does not help there is a bug that lives in the vagina that can cause VA symptons and bladder and it's called Ureaplasma again specialist testing.
The same goes for all infections we are giving to low a dose for to short a time which is what is causing the antibiotic resistant problems......but once biofilm infections are properly recognised it will be like letting the Ginie out of the lamp.
Also out of the 5000 so called IC patients he has seen they all had an infection that is not picked up in conventional testing.......but the problem is some of these have had the infections so long and they are so ingrained in the bladder that it is almost impossible for them to get better.
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Very interesting Maryjane. Much of that makes sense.
Sadly we have to go along with conventional treatment for now but it does support my theory that the NHS does the simplest and cheapest options first - often to no effect or benefit - many go through endless doctor's visits and further treatments that probably cost far more in the long run.
Hopefully your specialist will do his paper soon - it will doubtless take some years before NICE will sanction a change in the way all this is treated. >:(
Dg x
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:thankyou: Maryjane …….
Dancinggirl - GPs have a set way of checking a patient's symptoms unless it is very obvious what the problem is. I don't know about cheapest options ………. however, GPs could cut women some slag and begin listening therefore cutting out the endless testing and getting to the crux of the matter!
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Taz and Morwenna - out of interest, please would you tell us whether you still had red and/or white blood cells in your urine after using Vagifem for a while, or did the Vagifem stop that?
Jenna x
The vagifem stopped it Jenna. The red and white blood cells came back, though, when I was off HRT and Vagifem.
Taz x
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Taz and Morwenna - out of interest, please would you tell us whether you still had red and/or white blood cells in your urine after using Vagifem for a while, or did the Vagifem stop that?
Jenna x
The vagifem stopped it Jenna. The red and white blood cells came back, though, when I was off HRT and Vagifem.
Taz x
Thank you, Taz - that is very interesting. I still have red and sometimes white cells despite using the Estriol cream. I did have a cystoscopy years ago and all was well. I live in hope that I will one day have a normal result! Maybe I should try Vagifem again!
Jenna x
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The Vagifem stopped it for a while but then I went onto full HRT which stopped it for a few years but then I developed more cystitis type symptoms (aged around 58) so went onto Vagifem as well as HRT. Everything was then normal.
Taz x
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Thank you everyone! I appreciate the replies and will definitely discuss vaginal atrophy with my doctor when I get this bladder issue done.
I saw the urologist today and he sent me for blood work and on Friday I have to get a CAT scan with and without contrast. I also have to get the cystoscopy in two weeks. I am TERRIFIED of the contrast - has anyone else had it and is it that bad?
He tested my urine and it showed no infection but it showed microscopic blood - a moderate amount. Has anyone else had this?
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Regards it will take years for NICE to recognise the bladder wall infection and treatment plan........before seeing The Professor i do now...I saw a different uro/gynae who is on the board of NICE and he also treats bladder wall infections amd said the way UTIs are treated is completely wrong.....and the reason we are in this mess is because of the three day treatment that GPs dish out........he said GPs should think outside the box more which they are allowed to do........the guidelines are not set in stone and if it was as simple as a three day course of antibs then we wouldn't need to go to the GP a just diagnose ourselves and off to the chemist.
Also what these doctors think privately and are allowed to do on the NHS are two different things....vagifem is definatley part of my "layers of the onion" but not all of it, and I have had to spend a small fortune to get my health to where it is now( still not there ) but about 80% better than this time last year , and it has all had to be off my own back.......and I have avoided any invasive tests unless absolutely necessary and my own research suggests this is appropriate......as to many people I no are made worse......don't get me started on the over use of nerve blocks for nerve pain............
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Thank you everyone! I appreciate the replies and will definitely discuss vaginal atrophy with my doctor when I get this bladder issue done.
I saw the urologist today and he sent me for blood work and on Friday I have to get a CAT scan with and without contrast. I also have to get the cystoscopy in two weeks. I am TERRIFIED of the contrast - has anyone else had it and is it that bad?
He tested my urine and it showed no infection but it showed microscopic blood - a moderate amount. Has anyone else had this?
Hi Mich,
I haven't had a CAT scan, but I had a kidney x-ray with dye, and that was nothing to worry about at all. When the dye is injected they warn you that you will feel a hot flush passing over you. I'm not sure if it is the same for a CAT scan though.
If you look back on this thread to the last few posts, you will see that we have been discussing red blood cells in our urine. I had a cystoscopy as well as the kidney x-ray investigations and no reason was ever found for mine and I was told not to worry about it. I suspect now that it was the beginning of my vaginal atrophy.
Hope all goes well, Mich. Are you in the UK, by the way?
Jenna x
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The Vagifem stopped it for a while but then I went onto full HRT which stopped it for a few years but then I developed more cystitis type symptoms (aged around 58) so went onto Vagifem as well as HRT. Everything was then normal.
Taz x
Thank you Taz. :foryou:
Jenna x
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Jenna I had the microscopic blood right at the start of menopause four years ago. That's when I had the cystoscopy which found no reason for it. No one suggested VA! It was me who made the connection when I started with hot flushes three months later. I asked my GP for HRT and it all cleared up. The problems with bladder pain last year were caused by the discontinuation of the Ortho Gynest pessaries I had been using successfully which my GP then replaced with Gynest cream - later found to be something I couldn't tolerate. I imagined Gynest cream would be the same stuff but clearly it wasn't! My most recent UTI was caused by having sex twice in the space of 24 hours... silly me! I sometimes forget I'm no longer in my twenties! ::)
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Thank you for replying Morwenna. It does seem that we have to diagnose our own problems in relation to all this - honestly I really do despair.
I also used to use Ortho Gynest pessaries (but I don't know whether they stopped the red cells in my urine, as sadly I don't think it was ever tested during that time). I think they were much more effective than the Gynest cream (now called Estriol for those that aren't aware!). I did try Vagifem, but it seemed to dry me out and I think I felt swollen and I remember that it hurt to sit down, so I went on to Gynest cream then. Also a gynae I had seen during that time had said Gynest would be better for me because of my undercarriage soreness (a more recent VA symptom). What a life!
Hope you are feeling better now and remember to take it easy. ;)
Jenna x
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Regards it will take years for NICE to recognise the bladder wall infection and treatment plan........before seeing The Professor i do now...I saw a different uro/gynae who is on the board of NICE and he also treats bladder wall infections amd said the way UTIs are treated is completely wrong.....and the reason we are in this mess is because of the three day treatment that GPs dish out........he said GPs should think outside the box more which they are allowed to do........the guidelines are not set in stone and if it was as simple as a three day course of antibs then we wouldn't need to go to the GP a just diagnose ourselves and off to the chemist.
Also what these doctors think privately and are allowed to do on the NHS are two different things....vagifem is definatley part of my "layers of the onion" but not all of it, and I have had to spend a small fortune to get my health to where it is now( still not there ) but about 80% better than this time last year , and it has all had to be off my own back.......and I have avoided any invasive tests unless absolutely necessary and my own research suggests this is appropriate......as to many people I no are made worse......don't get me started on the over use of nerve blocks for nerve pain............
I agree!! I told the urologist's nurse when I called today I will have the CAT SCAN but with no contrast. He said fine but then he wanted to put me into surgery under general anesthesia to do the cystoscopy!!! :o :o I SAID NO...the office one is fine so that is all I will do. If something shows on the CAT SCAN and/or the in office cystoscopy I would have contrast and/or surgery but not until that point.
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Hi Mich,
I haven't had a CAT scan, but I had a kidney x-ray with dye, and that was nothing to worry about at all. When the dye is injected they warn you that you will feel a hot flush passing over you. I'm not sure if it is the same for a CAT scan though.
If you look back on this thread to the last few posts, you will see that we have been discussing red blood cells in our urine. I had a cystoscopy as well as the kidney x-ray investigations and no reason was found for ever found for mine and I was told not to worry about it. I suspect now that it was the beginning of my vaginal atrophy.
Hope all goes well, Mich. Are you in the UK, by the way?
Jenna x
Thank you Jenna! :) I suspect the beginning of vaginal atrophy is what is happening with me too, and the urologist has to do the tests to rule other stuff out, which is fine...but I won't let him go too invasive just yet. I am conservative and when having medical procedures done I want the least invasive as possible. I think this doctor has gone beyond that and I spoke up.
I am not in the UK, I live in the US. :) My deceased husband traveled frequently to England and loved it and I always wanted to travel there and may someday. :)
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Jenna I had the microscopic blood right at the start of menopause four years ago. That's when I had the cystoscopy which found no reason for it. No one suggested VA! It was me who made the connection when I started with hot flushes three months later. I asked my GP for HRT and it all cleared up. The problems with bladder pain last year were caused by the discontinuation of the Ortho Gynest pessaries I had been using successfully which my GP then replaced with Gynest cream - later found to be something I couldn't tolerate. I imagined Gynest cream would be the same stuff but clearly it wasn't! My most recent UTI was caused by having sex twice in the space of 24 hours... silly me! I sometimes forget I'm no longer in my twenties! ::)
My ob/gyn told my husband and I we are trying to have sex like we were in our twenties! 8) :o My poor body cannot handle that any longer. We are newlyweds so we are madly in love, what else can I say? lol :D
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Thank you Jenna! :) I suspect the beginning of vaginal atrophy is what is happening with me too, and the urologist has to do the tests to rule other stuff out, which is fine...but I won't let him go too invasive just yet. I am conservative and when having medical procedures done I want the least invasive as possible. I think this doctor has gone beyond that and I spoke up.
I am not in the UK, I live in the US. :) My deceased husband traveled frequently to England and loved it and I always wanted to travel there and may someday. :)
Hi Mich,
I just wanted to mention that I previously suggested trying Estriol cream instead of Vagifem, but I don't think that is available in the U.S. - just so you know!
Hope it all goes well today - please let us know how you get on.
Jenna x
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Thank you Jenna! :) I suspect the beginning of vaginal atrophy is what is happening with me too, and the urologist has to do the tests to rule other stuff out, which is fine...but I won't let him go too invasive just yet. I am conservative and when having medical procedures done I want the least invasive as possible. I think this doctor has gone beyond that and I spoke up.
I am not in the UK, I live in the US. :) My deceased husband traveled frequently to England and loved it and I always wanted to travel there and may someday. :)
Hi Mich,
I just wanted to mention that I previously suggested trying Estriol cream instead of Vagifem, but I don't think that is available in the U.S. - just so you know!
Hope it all goes well today - please let us know how you get on.
Jenna x
One of our longer standing members from the States who has now left the forum used something called 'Estrace' - I think this may be the equivalent of Estriol?
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Hi Morwenna,
I looked up Estrace cream, but unfortunately it contains estradiol, the same as Vagifem. As Mich had said on another thread that her bladder symptoms had only started since she used Vagifem, I was trying to suggest an alternative in case Vagifem didn't suit her. What a game it all is!
Jenna x
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Thank you Jenna! :) I suspect the beginning of vaginal atrophy is what is happening with me too, and the urologist has to do the tests to rule other stuff out, which is fine...but I won't let him go too invasive just yet. I am conservative and when having medical procedures done I want the least invasive as possible. I think this doctor has gone beyond that and I spoke up.
I am not in the UK, I live in the US. :) My deceased husband traveled frequently to England and loved it and I always wanted to travel there and may someday. :)
Hi Mich,
I just wanted to mention that I previously suggested trying Estriol cream instead of Vagifem, but I don't think that is available in the U.S. - just so you know!
Hope it all goes well today - please let us know how you get on.
Jenna x
Okay thank you Jenna, I appreciate the information very much. :)
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Hi Mich
I have been following your post with interest as I have very similar symptoms to you. How did you get on with the Urologist?
W x