Menopause Matters Forum
Menopause Discussion => All things menopause => Topic started by: honorsmum on February 04, 2015, 04:50:00 PM
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I went to see a reflexologist yesterday, in the hope of helping sort out my insomnia.
We had a long chat about my symptoms, and I said that I felt anxiety was a symptom not the cause (my other symptoms being irregular cycles, palpitations even when relaxed, low blood sugar, change to hair condition and colour, dry skin and nails, low libido, fatigue).
She said that I shouldn't be so quick to assume it was a hormonal issue, but an anxiety issue throwing hormones out and causing all the symptoms.
It's clear reading through many members' experiences here that anxiety is one of the major symptoms during peri/menopause. Some members say that they had experienced anxiety before but nothing like that during menopause. Others say that it came out of nowhere, from previously being confident and outgoing.
So, do hormones cause anxiety...or does anxiety create a hormonal problem?
How does a doctor decide which to treat?
It strikes me that many of the symptoms of thyroid problems, menopause and anxiety cross over - how do you decide what's at the heart of the issue?
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I sailed through life with nary a wobble until the menopause hit and I went from 'normal' to having full blown panic attacks and crippling anxiety. So for me, I would say the fluctuating hormones caused it all. But this was pooh-poohed by many medical specialists for years.
Bramble
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…….. anxiety is the natural flight or fight response to danger. This can be caused by various hormones kicking in at the first sign of danger [can't remember any except adrenaline] causing anxiety. It is an instant response - one either flees the situation [sabre tooth tiger] or fights ….. these responses go back to the Cave Man Days ::) - knowing these facts doesn't help when it floors me though :-\ :'(
I think a clinical psychologist would explain the above better than I have done. For me the anxiety is instant, one psychologogyst told me that I HAD to have a thought pattern in order to trigger anxiety. I never went back to her. My anxiety hits in the gut followed by weak thighs - so I wouldn't be much good at fleeing or fighting ::) - then I feel nauseous and start shaking. All within seconds.
Anxiety does NOT cause a hormonal problem …….. which hormones did this person think were being "thrown out"?
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I sailed through life with nary a wobble until the menopause hit and I went from 'normal' to having full blown panic attacks and crippling anxiety. So for me, I would say the fluctuating hormones caused it all. But this was pooh-poohed by many medical specialists for years.
Bramble
Lots of women seem to say the same, Bramble.
It's something I'm really interested in. As I wrote elsewhere, it seems to be accepted that puberty and pregnancy hormones will affect women emotionally, but menopause and certainly peri seems to be treated differently - the emphasis being put on life circumstances causing anxiety, and therefore having an affect on hormones.
I was as happy as I've ever felt at the point my cycles started doing weird things. Then the palpitations started...then the waking up repeatedly through the night...then the fatigue...then the anxiety...then the feeling I was going slightly mad, followed by an increase in palpitations, insomnia,anxiety, night sweats, hunger etc.
I know lots of women are prescribed antidepressants alongside HRT, but have also read that if the mental health symptoms are hormone based, antidepressants won't help.
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"Hormones are your body's chemical messengers. They travel in your bloodstream to tissues or organs. They work slowly, over time, and affect many different processes, including
"Growth and development
Metabolism - how your body gets energy from the foods you eat
Sexual function
Reproduction
Mood
"Endocrine glands, which are special groups of cells, make hormones. The major endocrine glands are the pituitary, pineal, thymus, thyroid, adrenal glands, and pancreas. In addition, men produce hormones in their testes and women produce them in their ovaries.
"Hormones are powerful. It takes only a tiny amount to cause big changes in cells or even your whole body. That is why too much or too little of a certain hormone can be serious. Laboratory tests can measure the hormone levels in your blood, urine, or saliva. Your health care provider may perform these tests if you have symptoms of a hormone disorder. Home pregnancy tests are similar - they test for pregnancy hormones in your urine. ……. "
from: http://www.nlm.nih.gov
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Hi honorsmum
Anxiety is a common (and well known) symptom of menopause - characterised by hormone fluctuations and in particular a gradual loss of oestrogen.
Anyone who first experiences anxiety during the peri-menopausal years (or who has experienced cyclical pre-menstrual anxiety) and with no overwhelming life siutation that could cause this, will do so because of hormone changes, and this should be alleviated by replacing these hormones.
It is tricky during peri-menopause because the hormones are fluctuating more extremely than when women are in their fertile years.
Replacing the hormones at sufficient level should enable you to be able to deal with life's stresses rather than be made anxious and overly worried by them. Many women find that when they eventually reduce their oestrogen dose in HRT after menopause the anxiety symptoms return. Also some women on continuous combined HRT experience anxiety as an unwanted side effect of some synthetic progestogens.
Gynaecologists do not recommend taking anti-depressants as a first option for hormone induced anxiety, when HRT would be preferable.
There is a lot of advice on non chemical/"mindful" ways of controlling anxiety that occurs even when on HRT (and even if not). Any reduction in stress levels will have a beneficial effect on your general health. Stress causes increases in adrenalin and cortisol but will not cause the symptoms of peri-menopause, although menstrual cycles can be affected by stress too at any age.
Here is some information on anxiety/stress
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/stress-anxiety-depression/pages/understanding-panic.aspx
Yes the whole endocrine system is governed by feedback mechanisms and works in beautiful homeostasis (self-balancing) most of the time. A good doctor will also test levels of thyroid hormones when a woman goes to the doc with peri-menopausal symptoms to do a baseline check, because this gland often starts to decline in mid-life as well.
Hurdity x
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Thanks Hurdity! I found this too - I take my hormones for granted ::)
"http://www.hormone.org/hormones-and-health/the-endocrine-system/endocrine-glands-and-types-of-hormones" - reminded me of how my body 'works'/not ……..
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…….. anxiety is the natural flight or fight response to danger. This can be caused by various hormones kicking in at the first sign of danger [can't remember any except adrenaline] causing anxiety. It is an instant response - one either flees the situation [sabre tooth tiger] or fights ….. these responses go back to the Cave Man Days ::) - knowing these facts doesn't help when it floors me though :-\ :'(
I think a clinical psychologist would explain the above better than I have done. For me the anxiety is instant, one psychologogyst told me that I HAD to have a thought pattern in order to trigger anxiety. I never went back to her. My anxiety hits in the gut followed by weak thighs - so I wouldn't be much good at fleeing or fighting ::) - then I feel nauseous and start shaking. All within seconds.
Anxiety does NOT cause a hormonal problem …….. which hormones did this person think were being "thrown out"?
She was talking about the effect of stress on things like the adrenals, thyroid, pituitary gland etc., with the resulting affect on things like cortisol levels.
I understand the way the sympathetic nervous system works, and the whole fight flight reaction - I am just trying to unravel how anxiety in perimenopause works, in relation to this.
An interesting point to make is that anxiety is noted as a symptom of hypermobility
- purely as a result of the way the nervous system is affected by the "set up" of the body in sufferers. In that case, it has nothing to do with a person's thought pattern, and everything to do with faulty signal being sent by "faulty wiring."
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I was a nervy child but in my late teens really grew out of it. Confident in most things....I have emetophobia.
Got married, had children, lost a child....just got on but as I got into my forties my anxiety increased just a little. Not enough to stop me doing what I wanted to though.
Moved house and had horrendous neighbour problems which coincided with periods stopping and IBS starting. Started HRT and felt so much better and calmer able to cope with anything.
Then follows a couple of panic attacks and here I am three years on and struggling. My stomach is my main problem....any stress and its off for months.
I restrict myself to things I can cope with....forget theatres, eating out,.....put me in a field and I'm happy.
I thought my hormones were fairly stable before my anxiety started, so for me who knows. I was only 51 so they probably weren't.
I think past events have just caught up with me. Loosing a child, hubby having a heart attack and then being diagnosed with the current illness would have tested a stronger person than me.
I once saw a physiologist that told me everyone reacts differently. I was seeking help after my daughter died. He told me that my hubbies heart attack was a direct result of what we had been through and that literally his heart had broken. I'm not sure about that at all but what I do know is we all carry baggage and perhaps in later life it can effect us.
Sorry that turned into a ramble....I'm always trying to figure out the why because then I can maybe figure out how to make things better.
Honeyb
X
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My friend has 'hyper mobility' and it's nowt to do with hormones ::)
'sympathetic' - that's the bit I forgot ……..
Remembering that food plays an important factor too in anxiety - if our bodies lack sugar/energy then anxiety can kick in. Suddenly. Think of athletes who 'hit the wall' during sports. That sudden drop in energy is awful, for me it was caused by anxiety surges, nausea and weakness. NAPS advised me to eat every 3 hours to keep my body even - that was 24/7, 12/52. Emitophobia ruled my Life 24/7 for years, the betablocka helps as it stops the surges …….
It then becomes a self perpetuating circle ……. I recommend 'listening to your body' rather than constantly rationalising. Keeping a food/mood diary plus any anxiety surges will help. I work on a 1-5 because 0 is no anxiety and 5 is HIGH :'(
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Thanks Hurdity.
It's all very confusing to me, because the only other time I have experienced anxiety symptoms (as opposed to your everyday "worry" thoughts) was when I was initially ill from Crohn's but being told there was nothing physically wrong with me. Whether the resulting anxiety was as a result of my thought process or actually a reaction to what was happening physiologically, I can't say.
Likewise, I've seen my GP with peri symptoms, and she says it's anxiety - cause, not symptom. Reflexology suggests the same thing. But as CLKD has said, a gynae would diagnose on symptoms and say perimenopause.
There's obviously a point where anxiety causes anxiety, IYWIM - so what was caused by a physiological change (ie hormone shifts) becomes a mental reaction, ie "I've lost my confidence, I'm too scared to go out on my own"etc) I wonder if it's that the GPs focus on, when they say "it's anxiety"...the symptom, rather than the cause.
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Honorsmum: Did you sail through exams., holiday plans, driving Test - without anxiety? I managed being on the stage because my anxiety was dissipated once I got going: I played in the school orchestra and sang in the choir - but going away from my routine has ALWAYS caused anxiety …… usually calmed once I began the journey or arrived at the destination.
I had Valium 3 days prior to getting married. Nothing to do with hormones. Hormones were causing other problems! Now I have background anxiety daily ……. and it infiltrates my dreams when I am stressed - family, holiday plans, being upset by Mother …….
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My friend has 'hyper mobility' and it's nowt to do with hormones ::)
'sympathetic' - that's the bit I forgot ……..
Remembering that food plays an important factor too in anxiety - if our bodies lack sugar/energy then anxiety can kick in. Suddenly. Think of athletes who 'hit the wall' during sports. That sudden drop in energy is awful, for me it was caused by anxiety surges, nausea and weakness. NAPS advised me to eat every 3 hours to keep my body even - that was 24/7, 12/52. Emitophobia ruled my Life 24/7 for years, the betablocka helps as it stops the surges …….
It then becomes a self perpetuating circle ……. I recommend 'listening to your body' rather than constantly rationalising. Keeping a food/mood diary plus any anxiety surges will help. I work on a 1-5 because 0 is no anxiety and 5 is HIGH :'(
I know the hypermobility bit was off topic - it just interests me, because my son has it (and is waiting to be tested for EDS) and suffers from palpitations, which appears to be the anxiety part of it; purely physical, not mental. It seems I also have hypermobility. :)
Anyway, I didn't want to focus on me, but women generally - I've read other forums for things like thyroid and palpitations, and there seems to be a lot of mention of anxiety in both disorders...which begs the question - cause or affect?
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Honorsmum: Did you sail through exams., holiday plans, driving Test - without anxiety? I managed being on the stage because my anxiety was dissipated once I got going: I played in the school orchestra and sang in the choir - but going away from my routine has ALWAYS caused anxiety …… usually calmed once I began the journey or arrived at the destination.
I had Valium 3 days prior to getting married. Nothing to do with hormones. Hormones were causing other problems! Now I have background anxiety daily ……. and it infiltrates my dreams when I am stressed - family, holiday plans, being upset by Mother …….
I would say I had normal "worry thoughts" before all the occasions you mention - things like, "I hope it goes well ...Have I done enough revision?...what if I fail?" Etc but never the feeling of impending doom or wanting to run away/vomit/run to the loo!
Don't forget, I performed professionally for years and years.
There is a difference between worry and anxiety, I think - worry can be thoughts without physical feelings, whereas anxiety to me is very much physical.
Lots of posts about peri/meno say that the anxiety follows a very set pattern - worst in the morning, by improving as the day goes on. To me, that suggests very much a chemical reaction, not a mental one.
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I was a nervy child but in my late teens really grew out of it. Confident in most things....I have emetophobia.
Got married, had children, lost a child....just got on but as I got into my forties my anxiety increased just a little. Not enough to stop me doing what I wanted to though.
Moved house and had horrendous neighbour problems which coincided with periods stopping and IBS starting. Started HRT and felt so much better and calmer able to cope with anything.
Then follows a couple of panic attacks and here I am three years on and struggling. My stomach is my main problem....any stress and its off for months.
I restrict myself to things I can cope with....forget theatres, eating out,.....put me in a field and I'm happy.
I thought my hormones were fairly stable before my anxiety started, so for me who knows. I was only 51 so they probably weren't.
I think past events have just caught up with me. Loosing a child, hubby having a heart attack and then being diagnosed with the current illness would have tested a stronger person than me.
I once saw a physiologist that told me everyone reacts differently. I was seeking help after my daughter died. He told me that my hubbies heart attack was a direct result of what we had been through and that literally his heart had broken. I'm not sure about that at all but what I do know is we all carry baggage and perhaps in later life it can effect us.
Sorry that turned into a ramble....I'm always trying to figure out the why because then I can maybe figure out how to make things better.
Honeyb
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Don't apologise for anything - it's really interesting to read your experiences. I'm sorry you've had to go through so much.xxx
Talking to the reflexologist yesterday, she said something similar - she suggested that my Crohn's was caused by events that happened to me in the 2 years prior to getting ill; I was carjacked at knifepoint, and then my dad was taken seriously ill and was in intensive care for 6 months before having his machines switched off. I was fine throughout, but the Crohn's started about 9 months later.
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I have been reminded that I suffered with anxiety as a child, I'm talking 7/8 years of age. In my case my father had just died, I was bullied at school & my mum not understanding what was going on outside her own grief, thrashed me almost on a daily basis because I didn't want to go to school. It was my stomach which reacted back then, often sick. In my teenage years my mum caused me to develop OCD tendencies. Felt like I got blamed needlessly. Maybe it was her hormones as she was going through the change then.
Roll on nowadays & my anxiety levels have increased gradually over last 18 months - 2 years or so. My stomach plays up now too, though it's the runs instead. Citalopram has thankfully settled that, though I still get a churning tum sometimes.
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I think hormones put us out of kilter & cause anxiety. It gets worse as no GP seems to agree so we feel more poorly & then the anxiety causes more anxiety. I think the good strong points in our lives are when our hormones have been better balanced. Little things come back to the surface to niggle us & get blown out of proportion & we don't cope so well when we are unbalanced. I'm pretty sure of this & I have concluded that my stronger 2 weeks of the month now are when I'm on one sort of HRT patch but I have always held this opinion since my mid 20's. I wish they would do more research as I am sure lots of people suffer without even realising it. I have to remind my daughter all the time, it is so easy to right it off as something else. Bee xx
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Anxiety, stress and depression are complex issues and there must be links with hormones, life events and various other factors. I certainly suffered terrible anxiety after my daughter was born as my piano teacher had experienced a still birth - I was in my teens at the time & it really upset me. My mother wouldn't let me buy anything for the baby till after the birth and I was terrified my baby would die. I simply couldn't sleep for weeks after the birth. Was I suffering from post natal depression or just overly anxious due to past experience - probably a bit of both. When I had my son I managed much better and enjoyed him far more because I was far less anxious.
My older sister has Crohns and my younger sister had Ulcerative Colitis - similar problems but in different parts of the digestive tract. There is clearly a genetic link and I know for a long time it was deemed a young persons illness and it was thought that a person would 'grow out of it'! Of course they now realise it will appear at any stage in life. It does seem to emerge in the teenage years which logically would point to a link with hormones but also all the pressures of teenage life. We hear of so many women developing Crohns and IBS in middle age which again logically would point to hormonal and life stress issues all playing a part. There have been quite a lot of posts on MM by women who suffer from digestive problems of all kinds, even nausea, who find that HRT alleviates or reduces these problems. I haven't actually been diagnosed with Crohns or colitis but I am very prone to diarrhoea so if I had investigations I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn I did have it or at least had IBS. Extreme stress or traumatic experiences can and do have enormous effects of our bodies and I'm sure throw the balance off in all sorts of ways.
I think the effect of the onset of menopause on the way we think, feel, dream and react to normal life events can be quite dramatic. Why do I get such horrible vivid nightmares when not on HRT???? To an extent that I am frightened to go to sleep!!!
In the past it wasn't unusual for women to be put into an asylum at the time of their menopause. I certainly find I cope much better with stress when on HRT.
During my time out from HRT I started doing Mindful Meditation which I continue to do and I think this is a very good way of controlling anxiety - however this takes time and time is something many women at this stage in their lives have very little of.
Too many GPs dish out ADS/SRRIs instead of considering an hormonal problem when women hit their 40s and 50s - this needs to change. DG x
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So not so fine after all. I think that events from the past impact on the present....may take months /years but it catches up eventually.
Is it events in life or a pre disposition to anxiety.
All I know is it shrinks your world in a way I could never believe.
Honeyb
X
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I agree - I can worry in my head but anxiety is in the gut. Nausea etc..
Then I start to worry in my head that the gut feelings will never go away then despair sets in :'(
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Very true CLKD. Vicious circle isn't it?
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Yep it's in my gut too starts off as nausea then the other end then the shaking. My husbands body reacts totally different & he gets migraines. Is it because I am scared of being sick? It's so complicated. No matter what our GPs agree on we know we have similar experiences & I for one think we do pretty darn well all things considered. Bee x
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Yep Bev - the fear is instant with me :'(
'vicious' about covers it
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honeybun,
I have wondered whether stress in the past affects you in later life.
My lovely Daddy died when i was just 6 from Hodgkins Lymphoma leaving my Mum with four children and we were obviously devastated. My Mum soon married again, probably for the security. My Stepdad turned out to be an alcoholic wife beater and we often heard him hitting her and felt useless when we couldn't protect her enough. Thankfully Mum kicked him out and met a lovely guy who my kids considered their Grandad. He died of Hodgkins too five years ago. I realise that this is life, many people have worse stories. I have always thought of myself as a coper but lately can't cope with stresses that are nothing, compared to the past. Everything seems too big, too worrying. I think I've reached my coping capacity!
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We can shut our emotions away at the time but eventually they will 'out'.
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That's exactly it CLKD. It never goes away and meets you sometime in the future.
Honeyb
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I agree with you both. I had Hodgkin's lymphoma and 9 months of chemo. Just as I got the all clear my Mum had a massive stroke and died 6 weeks later. The following year our youngest daughter went out to work in Canada. At the time I seemed to cope quite well but gradually over the last couple of years anxiety began to creep in along with menopause symptoms and eventually I agreed to see a counsellor and try a low dose of AD. It has taken me some time to come to terms with the fact that the stress and the emotions of past events had taken their toll and I needed help to try to sort things out. Now I am much kinder to myself, don't take on so many things and try to realise I can't solve everyone else's problems - I don't always succeed but I try!! I think we all probably cope better than we think we do but it does come at a price,sometimes in a very physical way.
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Honorsmum - this is precisely the jigsaw puzzle I have been wrestling with and after doubting myself, I feel confident I have all of this going on. Adrenal stress + 'failing' hormonal reserves = up and down imbalance = more stress response.
I don't have an easy way to explain the hormonal cascade but perimenopause can be viewed as an imbalance in the hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis, or HPA axis for short. This is the central pathway for all hormones in the body. So yes, it's really real that thyroid, adrenals and reproductive systems are all involved.
The whole thing works on a feedback system which is why, in my opinion our thoughts and emotions do play a big part. If our systems are trying to balance as estrogen and progesterone do their dance of varying levels, the system will try to compensate. The whole metabolic balance will fail and a 'symptom' could appear.
The hypothalamus which governs which hormones are secreted etc is very sensitive to brain activity (thoughts/emotions) and also the feedback from the rest of the system - basically it's really easy to get thrown off balance as the system stops communicating efficiently.
Where anxiety comes in is that this jumble genuinely does create an adrenal response - cortisol is released and the fight or flight response activated, progesterone is used to make cortisol which reduces progesterone and so it goes on around the body........ Our minds can perceive a threat when this cortisol is released and we 'follow' it and increase the response and deplete the system further. Some women might not respond or even notice this shift - some won't have fluctuating hormones enough to trigger the rest of the system to get out of balance.
If you enter perimenopause with some level of adrenal stress, which could be diet related, old emotional wounds, a generally busy life, you have depleted reserves, even if you haven't experienced symptoms before perimenopause - I hope that makes sense.
As well as trying to balance our hormones I guess the reactions to the symptoms need to be managed as well - I know for myself that I have got caught in 'feeding' the sense of imbalance that can manifest as many odd symptoms or strange things that seem completely 'unusual' for me, so my curiosity followed as to what was 'wrong' and then bang an adrenalin rush and the message from the brain 'something is wrong' is affirmed. A vicious cycle is created.
Most of this is an automatic response and I guess that's why meditation, mindfullness, breathing and awareness that there is nothing wrong really helps. Detachment....... Doctors don't explain this and whenever I have tried to check whether this is a 'correct' assumption of what my body is doing I get a funny look ;)
For me, knowing what my body is doing has helped, even if I only have a basic understanding. It means I can acknowledge my body is desperately trying to balance and actually failing to do so at times. The only thing to do is keep trying to nudge it back to balance for comfort - food, lifestyle, hormones etc until finally the hormones stop going crazy. Seen in this way the process is entirely natural and quite amazing - though the symptoms are genuinely a sign of misfiring and can mimic thryoid disease etc and I guess if thyroid or adrenal issues were in the background previously they can get worse.
It isn't any wonder some of us think we have a thyroid problem or some other issue.
Here is a random page from a google search that goes someway to what I think you are curious about Honorsmum
http://www.theperimenopauseblog.com/natural-therapies-for-menopause-product-giveaway/
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Thank you so much for your explanation, Bright Light - it makes complete sense when put like that. I just knew there had to be a reason more scientific than coincidence (or being neurotic!) why women of a certain age start to suffer from thyroid problems and anxiety issues.
Like you, I feel I have had some adrenal fatigue issues which have either collided with age-related hormonal changes (ie peri), or caused them (non-peri hormonal imbalance).
A friend who is 50 has recently been diagnosed with Hashimoto' s thyroiditis, and subsequently discovered that her adrenals, in her words, "are shot." This all followed her putting her back out and having to be off work - obviously the tipping point that was the straw that broke the camel's back.
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You are welcome, it's nice to be able to share my thoughts and conclusions for my own situation and also the bigger picture. Yes, we do fall vulnerable to thyroid and autoimmune issues as we age - it must be the 'communication' systems going wrong and attempting a fix..........
Your poor friend having all that going on. I am definately at the tipping point and I am certain my taxed adrenals have contributed to an earlier onset menopause. After freaking out for a week after my doctor threw the curve ball of postmenopausal FSH, HRT etc etc I am back to supporting myself in the ways I know how.
It seems ironic that we spend years getting to know ourselves, our quirks and needs only to be thrown into a situation that truely is beyond our control to balance in the ways we have in the past.
How did you find the refelxology? I am a trained Shiatsu practitioner (not working right now) but I have accupuncture regularly to keep me in balance and the fact that it wasn't lasting inbetween treatments in the past year was what led me to think something else was wrong. I can get into balance quite easily and then woooosh it's off - that is the hormonal shifts I think, that are not controllable.
I am saying all this because I have a new tack - I am going to focus on my baseline balance, the one that I know I can do and always will and try and detach a bit from the changes in my body and the rushes of hormonal change, that are just going to do their thing. Let's see how I get on ;)
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Goodness Brightlight You certainly seem to be doing some reading! Great to try to understand what's going on in your body and sounds like you would benefit from studying human biology!
As you've found out our endocrine system functions less well as we age - as with many of our bodily functions. here is an summary of hormonal changes with ageing:
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/004000.htm
And of course there is the wonderful interaction and influence of mind with body and body with mind so that - in terms of chicken and egg - it is both. Our mood is most definitely influenced by our hormones and oestrogen levels have a profound and direct effect here (and I think testosterone too?). This is what fluctuates and then decreases so dramatically at menopauses and gives rise to the bewildering myriad of symptoms that women experience.
The other way round also has a profound effect as you mention Brightlight - ie the negative effect of stress - through external factors - on our physiology and some hormones, and eventually our general health.
For those who don't have the time to grasp how all this works, and the complex mechanisms - then this is the time of life to try to reduce all the current stresses in your life, concentrate on general health and well-being - through diet, exercise, and control of weight, alcohol and smoking, to look for non-chemical ways to cope with hormonally induced anxiety - the best way to improve adrenal function - and to look at replacing the hormones which become deficient, if you are medically able to do so - ie oestrogen.
Regarding the adrenal glands - the concept of adrenal fatigue is not a recognised condition - and I think originates in US where they have a different health-care system and may well be linked to a product you can buy that claims to cure adrenal fatigue?! There is a rare disorder of the adrenal glands called Addison's disease - but it is unlikley that any of us suffer from this - as far as I understand adrenal function is not one of the standard tests on NHS except for individuals that could be suspected of this?
In terms of progesterone and the adrenal glands, from what I understand all the steroid hormones that are produced by the adrenal glands orginate from cholesterol and the production will balance itself through homeostatic mechanisms. Not sure where the idea of depleting progesterone comes from in this context but it is important to distinguish between the hormones produced by the adrenal glands and those from the gonads ( sex organs). Men and women produce progesterone - I think in the adrenal glands - in small amounts throughout our life including post-menopausally, which is responsible for a number of functions - I don't know all of this and not sure if it is yet completely understood?
The progesterone that we mostly refer to in our menopausal discussions is produced during the menstrual cycle (before fertilisation) by the corpus luteum ie the empty egg follicle after ovulation. The amounts are huge compared to the amount produced by the adrenal glands. It is this that decreases at menopause - because it is no longer needed for pregnancy, and depletion of this is not related to cortisol or the adrenal glands but the menstrual cycle and ovulation.
I realise the whole subject is extremely complex and there are different physiological processes going on but just wanted to highlight these points!
I don't know why thyroid function in particular seems to be affected in many women as we reach this age. This isn't explained in the link I gave - and haven't yet looked around for a biological explanation from reputable scientific/medical site!
Hope this ramble (really me thinking aloud) is of some interest to someone!! :)
Hurdity x
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Dogs suffer from Addison's disease too …...
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Hi Hurdity - I find it all really interesting :)
I have been aware of all these things for many years but only just getting a grip on how the stress response might have impacted my own fertility. In a nutshell what you say about this time of life being an opportunity to look at all areas of lifestlye is the nugget I think is really important.
My holistic thinking isn't so much about natural products, it's more about recognising that balance is all the body needs and wants to do and that times like menopause or other key changes in physiology or life events challenge that balance. Although in the US they are indeed 'selling' on the back of theories, I generally agree with the understanding that there are precursors to all eventual imbalances (illness) and by trying to understand our own particular needs we can take care of our health.
The endocrine/hormonal system is vastly under cared for in my opinion, but it's not easy to pinpoint where things go wrong, but generally I do agree with the notion of adrenal fatigue/stress - call it what you will and yes Addisons disease is something different BUT I think that wellbeing and lifestyle factors could be integrated into mainstream healthcare a little more than they are ;) Doctors could promote the real benefits of relaxation and diet instead of an almost derogatory comment of 'it's just stress'. They could explain the very real impact.
Emotional wellbeing is my particular interest and not so much the biology/science, which I only investigated deeply when after having first hand experience of the body/mind causing problems for me. Coupled with my search for support outside the mainstream from practitioners that explained it to me - practitioners that were working in the mainstream but expanded there training to encompass wellbeing way before an 'illness' took hold.
I have a great diagram which I can't attach here called the "cortisol steal" and it shows clearly that when cortisol is needed any progesterone in the body will be taken - so I thought it did get taken from ovarian sources. (?) Once stress has intercepted the natural mechanism the source of the problem lies with the adrenals.
The take home message from me, is that nevermind the science, I really think our emotional wellbeing is important for health.
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BrighLight I found this site interesting, I subscribe to his newsletter and always find them thought provoking and certainly don't think to dismiss
them because he is from the US.
http://www.drlam.com/articles/adrenal_fatigue.asp
Another interesting discussion
http://www.patient.co.uk/forums/discuss/adrenal-fatigue--259115
The best thing for adrenal health is Vitamin C especially if you are stressed.
"Vitamin C is critical for adrenal function. Your body's highest levels of vitamin C are found in the adrenal glands and brain tissues, and the urinary excretion of Vitamin C is increased during stress"
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Absolutely silverlady - noone should dismiss something just because from the US! I was just pointing out that a lot of these ideas come from the US because of their different health-care system and because people pay for their healthcare which they don't in UK, in the same way!
Here is an appraisal of adrenal fatigue from another US site - science-based medicine:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/fatigued-by-a-fake-disease/ Here is the conclusion but the whole article is worth reading:
While adrenal fatigue may not exist, this doesn't mean the symptoms people experience aren't real. These same symptoms could be caused by true medical conditions such as sleep apnea, adrenal insufficiency, or depression. Accepting a fake disease diagnosis from an unqualified practitioner is arguably worse. Patients don't receive a science-based evaluation of their symptoms, and they may be sold unnecessary treatments that are probably ineffective and potentially harmful. There's no question that it would be frustrating to be experiencing fatigue symptoms and then to be told by a health professional that there is nothing medically wrong. But that is arguably better than the distraction of treating a fictitious condition.
I am one of those who would resist the docs giving me any diagnosis of anything with the word fatigue in it or related conditions because I feel it is a cop out - as the underlying problems - be they hormonal, lifestyle etc need investigating - and treating and labelling patients - especially women - does nothing to help them!
Brightlight - I am totally with you on holistic approach and I am a passionate advocate of total lifestyle evaluation and changes if necessary to promote health and well-being into old age! Also I agree emotional well-being is absolutely vital! And - yes it all should be part of main-stream health-care especially as far as women are concerned. Only a few weeks ago or so we were discussing on here that there should be well-woman centres everywhere, where we can go and discuss and be advised on everything, as we enter the peri-menopausal years.
I hope I am practising all of this - my diet is very healthy - almost no processed foods and not much fat or refined carbs, a few selected supplements now and again, trying to keep my weight down ( a struggle at 61!), limited alcohol, limited stress ( sometimes life events make this difficult though), some low dose bio-identical HRT, and 3 x 1 hour exercise classes a week and walks on some other days, being out in the fresh air etc.
I still feel for you regarding your fertility issues and I can see you may have some working through of this and with your partner even at the same time that you are struggling with possible menopause approaching too.
I agree also we need plenty of Vitamin C - I eat lots of fresh fruit and veg including juice and large orange each day. Most people do not have enough fruit and veg in their diet.
Hurdity x
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SilverLady - I look at Dr Lams website too and pick up some basic tips, most of it is a bit confusing for me - but I have adopted eating small amounts regularly, something before bed, vitamin c, B's and magnesium and plenty of water in an effort to stave off low energy.
Hurdity - sounds to me like you have a good balancing regime going on :) I am certain there used to be well woman clinics, or maybe I made that up :)
For me - my doctors didn't even mention Chronic Fatigue Syndrome or anything else - in my 20's and again in my 30's I experienced low energy despite rest and admittedly there were big life events around these times, but still, they weren't that interested in helping. This is where complementary medicine works best in my opinion and why I have continued to use it and avoid the Dr altogether unless it's a chronic/clinical situation. To be fair Dr's don't have time to integrate their thinking, they triage - look at symptoms, medicate or refer. They are beginning to recognise low level chronic conditions but overall I think you have to wait untill it becomes acute.
Thank you regards my fertility issues, it's been a horrible few years or more and quite challenging to find my way - I'll get there.
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I've found that taking high doses of vitamin C, vitamin D, vitamin B12, vitamin B5 and vitamin B complex, magnesium and iron seems to have made an impact on my fatigue issues.
My GP told me she considers adrenal fatigue, ME, CFS and thyroid issues as a dumping ground for patients whose blood tests show up nothing, but who can't accept a diagnosis of anxiety. :o. In response, I'd say that anxiety is a dumping ground for GP s who can't be bothered to look further than blood test results...
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Are you talking about GPs here? If GPs do the blood tests required relative to patient symptoms then what more should they do? If a patient returns complaining then they shoudl be refereed to the appropriate Consultant. However, many patients go away and complain to others instead of going back to their GP for resolution.
I was always aware of my body. Because of my phobia I have always known what upsets me even when I have been unable to avoid those situations :'( ……… whilst a person feels fine they get on with whatever, it's when they become more aware of bodily functions and upsets that questions are asked. I always had event anxiety, it was in the 1990s that it took over completely and I was aware of every breath I took ……..
We had Domestic Science ……… basic 1950s cookery skills, cleaning regimes; we didn't realise have a Class which taught health subjects apart from PE which focussed more on sports rather than the whole person, i.e. diet, hydration, avoiding injury …… we never warmed up for anything, straight onto the field or into the pool ::) or cross country >:( … I think sexual education should be followed with body awareness, I suppose that would be biology :-\ but at age 16 did I want to look forwards to how my body might be in my 30s, 60,s 70s ……… it was so far away! and anything I was taught got lost in the mists of time - some of what has been discussed above is vaguely in the back of my mind
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Your GP sounds like she's in the wrong job >:( ………. if we didn't have problems we wouldn't need GPs ::).
My GP could see how my anxiety affected me, I virtually crawled into the surgery …….. he never dismissed my symptoms but worked with me to assist. When one is feeling ill one is vulnerable and may not 'come across' clearly, but then it is surely up to the GP to work with that person :-\ …….
Is our GP aware that a thyroid function test can come back as 'within normal limits' but that there can still be thyroid dis-function? Her time will come ;) ;D
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If, being the operative word,CLKD!
Also, there is the issue of blood test result being taken as absolute. I was told that "blood tests don't lie" and treated for anxiety, when in fact I was very ill with Crohn's. Some blood tests just aren't sensitive enough to be accurate.
Also, some blood test "normal" ranges, eg thyroid, are outdated. Plus, the scope of blood tests offered by GPs is limited - if your basic thyroid test come back as "normal", ie within range, they will not test antibodies which may then diagnose Graves/Hashimoto' s.
And "normal" blood results can be a long way off "optimum", since the acceptable range is so wide, for example, for something like iron.
Then there is the example of something like the FSH test, which may be taken once, on a random day in the cycle, and deemed "normal."
Of course, all of the above assumes that the GP will exhaust the full range of blood tests that the symptoms suggest, before declaring a diagnosis of anxiety...However, more likely that a GP might run a few standard tests (thyroid, kidney and liver function, CRP, FBC) and that will be all.
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Then they should refer to the appropriate Consultant! I expect many patients come over as anxious in the surgery because they don't know how their complaint will be handled >:(
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Then they should refer to the appropriate Consultant! I expect many patients come over as anxious in the surgery because they don't know how their complaint will be handled >:(
Agree!
My GP picked up on my tachycardia back in July, while listening to my chest. She commented on it, and I told her I was happy and relaxed. So, she said she'd test my thyroid...results were "normal" and she never looked any further.Fast forward 4 months, and my tachycardia has become unpleasant - a different GP refers me to cardiology immediately.
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Different ways of dealing with patients ::) or scared of being sued ?
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Different ways of dealing with patients ::) or scared of being sued ?
I like to think that one only goes by "computer says..." and the other looks further than just blood tests.
The worst thing is that GP A knows she misdiagnosed my Crohn's as anxiety, yet insists on still trotting out the anxiety line, no matter what symptoms she's presented with!
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I have had blood tests come back as normal only to receive a phone call 8 weeks later saying actually my white cell count was raised indicating infection and to pick up a prescription for an antibiotic, this was 13 years ago. However after taking the antibiotic my symptoms resolved. As it happens some of the symptoms I am having now are like they were back then, aware of my heart beating, chest discomfort, yeuky taste in mouth and headache at one side.
Also back in April when I had all that stomach pain, my tests were again 'normal' but as some of you will maybe remember I was suffering from a severely inflammed gallbladder, which I have now had removed, can't understand why my white cell count and/or CRP levels weren't raised back then, one GP even suggested I had pulled a muscle! 5 months of horrendous pain and eventually calling an ambulance, WCC was at 18.5, normal range is around 10!
I reckon we all know our own bodies, and if anyone feels they are being fobbed off, go to another GP within the practice.
CG x
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I agree about the blood test being far too simplistic - both in the range they offer and the interpretation. Personally I don't go to the GP looking for a diagnosis as such, but I end up feeling that's what they think I want - "an answer" when really I want to know what to do about things and feel well again, this could be more diagnostic tests to rule things out or perhaps advice for self help and an invitation to return and keep the dialogue going. Not much to ask?
Honorsmum - your misdiagnosis is not good to hear about, I recognise that sometimes it takes time to fathom out what is going on, but this is where I think the patient ends up having to push when it should be the other way around. Anxiety is bound to rise in those situations>
I think they worry about being sued - red flag symptoms always get referrals - also probably have a budget for blood tests.
I had quite a farscal situation a couple of years ago - a cervical polyp was seen on a smear test. I was reluctant to have it removed at the time and asked if it was safe to leave it. Yes says one doctor, most women don't even know they are there. I returned almost a year later to ask for an examination to see if it had resolved and it hadn't and was told I would be immediately referred for a gynae opinion. I referenced previous advice and doctor said the guidelines had changed and all polyps should be looked at and removed, that only a teeny percentage were cancerous and that really she felt this was a case of overtreating but cervical polyps were now red flag situations. A case of 'trends' and 'fashions' in medicine - perhaps we will see adrenal stress tests hit the headlines in the NHS in a few years time - along with a brand new initiative for well woman clinics ;)
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I've found that taking high doses of vitamin C, vitamin D, vitamin B12, vitamin B5 and vitamin B complex, magnesium and iron seems to have made an impact on my fatigue issues.
My GP told me she considers adrenal fatigue, ME, CFS and thyroid issues as a dumping ground for patients whose blood tests show up nothing, but who can't accept a diagnosis of anxiety. :o. In response, I'd say that anxiety is a dumping ground for GP s who can't be bothered to look further than blood test results...
Good to hear the supplements helped you - I have recently, in the past 3 months begun with the full mix you mention with Vit E included, I sometimes feel the B's really have made a difference. My sister is a naturopath in Australia and mentioned I might want to take more easily absorbed B vitamins as some are harder to digest.
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I have had blood tests come back as normal only to receive a phone call 8 weeks later saying actually my white cell count was raised indicating infection and to pick up a prescription for an antibiotic, this was 13 years ago. However after taking the antibiotic my symptoms resolved. As it happens some of the symptoms I am having now are like they were back then, aware of my heart beating, chest discomfort, yeuky taste in mouth and headache at one side.
Also back in April when I had all that stomach pain, my tests were again 'normal' but as some of you will maybe remember I was suffering from a severely inflammed gallbladder, which I have now had removed, can't understand why my white cell count and/or CRP levels weren't raised back then, one GP even suggested I had pulled a muscle! 5 months of horrendous pain and eventually calling an ambulance, WCC was at 18.5, normal range is around 10!
I reckon we all know our own bodies, and if anyone feels they are being fobbed off, go to another GP within the practice.
CG x
I am glad you are well now - what a long road you had to travel. I am at the point of changing practise, although would rather not but I have tried most of the GP's in the last year - I had irritated red, warm skin come and go all of last year (which I now think was hormones). Four GP's seen, first said dermatitis, second said hives (they didn't itch), third said angioedema which is like hives and fourth said it wasn't any of those and it was hormones or stress. Now they will look back and realise what it was - it wasn't 'serious' so I guess it didn't need a dermatologist - but it did make me realise I expect them to know more than they do.
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I have had blood tests come back as normal only to receive a phone call 8 weeks later saying actually my white cell count was raised indicating infection and to pick up a prescription for an antibiotic, this was 13 years ago. However after taking the antibiotic my symptoms resolved. As it happens some of the symptoms I am having now are like they were back then, aware of my heart beating, chest discomfort, yeuky taste in mouth and headache at one side.
Also back in April when I had all that stomach pain, my tests were again 'normal' but as some of you will maybe remember I was suffering from a severely inflammed gallbladder, which I have now had removed, can't understand why my white cell count and/or CRP levels weren't raised back then, one GP even suggested I had pulled a muscle! 5 months of horrendous pain and eventually calling an ambulance, WCC was at 18.5, normal range is around 10!
I reckon we all know our own bodies, and if anyone feels they are being fobbed off, go to another GP within the practice.
CG x
The same happened to my dad. He kept being sick after eating, severe pain etc. GP kept telling him there was nothing to treat. After repeated visits, he was eventually refered for an ultrasound that showed a gallbladder too inflamed to remove so he was told he'd have to wait. Soon afterwards, he was rushed to hospital with severe acute pancreatitis and spent 6 months in intensive care before they switched his machines off.
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Honorsmum sorry to hear this story and that you lost your dad. Must have been difficult in the circumstances.
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Pertaining to adrenalin sufficiency (fatigue) it is more likely to show on saliva tests
https://healthunlocked.com/thyroiduk/posts/1003064/nhs-salivary-cortisol-tests-at-the-specialist-biochemistry-department-at-university-hospital-southampton
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Pertaining to adrenalin sufficiency (fatigue) it is more likely to show on saliva tests
https://healthunlocked.com/thyroiduk/posts/1003064/nhs-salivary-cortisol-tests-at-the-specialist-biochemistry-department-at-university-hospital-southampton
I mentioned this to my GP, and she just shrugged her shoulders, rolled here eyes and stated that they only ever did serum tests for adrenals.
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Honorsmum sorry to hear this story and that you lost your dad. Must have been difficult in the circumstances.
Thank you. It was, and still is, very difficult to come to terms with.
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It says to copy out the letter and show GP.
Reading the comments below the article is interesting.
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My GP told me that adrenal fatigue/insufficiency was not a diagnosis, simply a set of symptoms.
She said that if we're to have a saliva test done privately, she would not be prepared to acknowledge the results because she is a "conventional doctor" and if I wanted something different, I should look for a new doctor or find a consultant.
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Extract from letter
"The Specialist Biochemistry department at University Hospital Southampton carry out salivary cortisol testing as a NHS service. This service will only assess cortisol (not DHEA) but it is a good starting point. This is a NHS service and it is free for NHS patients. I Should be grateful if you would arrange for the Specialist Biochemistry department at University Hospital Southampton to carry out a salivary adrenal test. Please call 02380 798717 for further details"
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Awww HM so sorry to hear about your dad :( xx
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Awww HM so sorry to hear about your dad :( xx
Thank you, CG.xxx